Says Instapundit, about the University of Oklahoma students, expelled for singing racist lyrics (to the tune of "If You're Happy and You Know It").
ADDED: They're self-tarred as racists. Should they use a lawsuit to elevate themselves into heroes? That has risks! They'll be keeping their names and faces in the news, when what would help them most is a fresh start. I recommend a quiet settlement with the university — lawyers help with that too — with a return to the university, where they should earnestly study, make friends, and do good works. Atone. If these young men get inflated into seeing themselves as heroes — or victims — what happens next? Where do their lives go when the free-speech advocates move on? What have they learned? What have they become? I say settle and try to find your way back to a good life, the kind of good life the University of Oklahoma must surely want for all its students. Accord.
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११५ टिप्पण्या:
How do you tar an out and proud Racist as a racist. They beat the school to it.
I think they should sue or FIRE should sue on their behalf.
They likely would win.
The OU President calculates that they would prefer it to all go away.
I agree with Insty that the students should sue.
They will be seen as striking a blow for the first amendment but hey fellas, there is no taking back what is on video.
That little ditty is going to live forever.
I can't think of a reason why the students wouldn't sue.
Certainly they *should* sue. What the school did to them was obviously illegal, and far worse than what the students themselves did.
They're in a no win situation. The best outcome they can hope for is obscurity. Anything they do to further publicize their case will backfire. Maybe they're not spoiled, bigoted rich kids, but there's a considerable portion of the media who would like to characterize them as such. A suit would just play into that narrative. "Madonna sues. Green M&M's negligently left in dressing room. Asks $1m for intentional infliction of emotional damage."....... "Rich college kids sue for the right to sing racist songs." It's had to win with such a narrative.
The young man from Dallas says he was taught the chorus at SAE. And the SAE chapter at University of Texas in Austin says that is their favorite song.
That May help Walker by tainting Rick Perry with the N word tradition out and proud among rich Texas elites. Wisconsin has escaped that trap thanks to the liberals in Madison and the good people with common sense.
Free speech is valuable just because it lets everyone know the speaker's thoughts. It worked, and the thoughts were Poison. Too bad, so sad.
William: "They're in a no win situation"
Not true.
They are in an "absolutely win"-no win-no win-no win- (Seasons change, calendar pages fall from the wall, the sun makes many circuits across the sky)-no win situation.
It's entirely possible to be both a victim of a state university's violation of First Amendment free speech rights and, simultaneously, a racist, antisocial jerk who ought be shunned and shamed. From the news reports, it seems like the expelled students qualify on both counts.
If the ACLU can the Nazis' right to lawfully parade in Skokie, then why can't they file an amicus brief on behalf of those Okie frat boys?
Freedom of speech has always been about speech you'd rather not hear or tolerate...in other words "hate" speech. Leftist academics have been chipping away at this fundamental concept for decades, which our hostess probably knows all too well. As it stands now a majority of college students believe that they have an inalienable right to the security of their own prejudices, that is to say a right not to be offended or challenged by anything they might hear, see, or read.
traditionalguy: "The young man from Dallas says he was taught the chorus at SAE. And the SAE chapter at University of Texas in Austin says that is their favorite song."
Man, they just keep doubling down on the stupid.
SAE should still sue though, and win.
But wow.
Also: Winning a case after your First Amendment rights have been violated doesn't make you a "First Amendment hero" in my book, even if it makes you a "prevailing plaintiff."
Quaestor: "If the ACLU can the Nazis' right to lawfully parade in Skokie, then why can't they file an amicus brief on behalf of those Okie frat boys?"
They probably will.
There's a Section 1983 Clinic at OU's Law School. Sounds like a perfect opportunity to get some law students some experience.
I also think 1983 liability might be why all of the stories mention that the OU president personally punished the students. No other administration members seem to be involved, and maybe it's because they weren't willing to risk the personal liability that comes with violating the clearly established constitutional rights of these students.
Might there be an existing agreement with the university that the fraternity and its memebrs failed to follow? Absent anything of the sort (and would it even be binding here?), I would agree that they would have a 1st Amendment case (but would Alito dissent here, too?).
I haven't heard of Madonna not having the green M&M provision as a rider in her contract, but I do know that Van Halen had such a rider about brown M&M's solely to determine if they bothered to read the contract.
What kind of damages could they win? Would the damages be worth more than the attendant publicity? I just don't see how they could come out ahead. And there's a part of me that doesn't want them to come out ahead.
What if these were employees of a company with the same standards of conduct that of OU has for its students? Assume employees that made up one team of a company sponsored after work sport (e.g. a company softball league) were on a buss going to meet another team in their company sponsored sport. Assume they sang a song that expressed the desire to exclude or hang black folks rather than allow them to play on their team.
From a constitutional pov, which institution, if any, is able to terminate their students/employees? Is the school and the company only able to mess with the extracurricular activity, or can either or both tell the students/employees that they must go? Obviously most commenting here are already saying that the school can't get rid of the kids. Do you also say that a company cannot get rid of its employees if the company has the exact same standards of conduct as OU has for its students?
Maybe they're not spoiled, bigoted rich kids, but there's a considerable portion of the media who would like to characterize them as such.
William, there are two probable outcomes here:
1. The students sue and win; the University is forced to re-admit them, and the students maybe even collect some punitive damages, but the students are forever after viewed as racist shit-for-brains.
2. The students decide not to sue, forfeit their tuition, are unable to get into an even halfway-decent university anywhere else, miss out on tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in future earnings, and are still forever after viewed as racist shit-for-brains.
The horse has left the barn re: NOT being considered racist shit-for-brains.
They said no words you can't hear loudly spoken on any given night at Omega Psi Phi. They should sue the university for half its endowment.
From a constitutional pov, which institution, if any, is able to terminate their students/employees?
Students are customers, not employees.
This story kind of reminds me of when Borat was in the RV with the frat boys who longed for the right to own a slave.
College is a place you go to be silenced. No free expression in college.
I heard on the radio Morning Joe Mika Brzezinski say that what the youts where chanting was a rap parody.
Rapping Parody while white?
Later she had to walk it back because of the reaction to her comments.
@ Drago
I completely left out the word "defend" in my comment, since I wasn't sure of the ACLU's exact role regarding that famous 1st Amendment case. I paused there to read a brief history of Smith v. Collin. When I resumed typing I simply forgot I hadn't provided a verb. In a way I'm glad I didn't, because my inclination to use "defend" isn't strictly accurate. The National Socialist Party of America (i.e. American Nazis) was the plaintiff, the Village of Skokie was the defendant. ACLU-affiliate Burton Joseph (a Jew, ironically enough) represented the Nazis before several courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court, which finally ruled in favor of the Nazi's right to peaceably assemble.
Sorry for the poor (i.e. absent) proofreading on my part
If they win, they’ll be First Amendment heroes.
I don't know. I don't think many people see the Nazis who wanted to march in Skokie as First Amendment heroes.
I think this is the more common reaction
"Students are customers, not employees."
So which one is more able to be dropped? If you can force a college to keep students because they're customers, can you force a master baker to make cake for gays, i.e. for their customers?
BTW, I'm open to the idea that both institutions would be opening themselves to litigation in this situation because it was too hasty. But, if I had to choose I'd assume the school's executive has more discretion to terminate students than an employer's executive has with its employees.
I'm sympathetic to George Zimmerman. He's a flawed human being, but he's not some kind of borderline psychotic. At least, not yet. Give him another year of being the butt of bad jokes and front page exposition of his domestic problems and maybe something can be arranged. Or look at Darren Wilson. He doesn't seem to have done anything wrong, but he lost his job and his first misstep will be front page news........Right now I don't know the names of the people involved in this incident. They would be well advised to keep it that way.
William wrote: I just don't see how they could come out ahead. And there's a part of me that doesn't want them to come out ahead.
What part of you is that, William? If I were you I consider having it surgically removed, because it can't be doing you any good.
Bad ideas must be opposed by better ideas. Suppression only gives bad ideas credence and the cachet of forbidden fruit.
Does anybody remember how MLK won legal desegregation? He won by shaming the good white southerners into. Disowning the community enforcers of racial hatreds of black men for existing. That victory stands.
So how you gonna find a jury to award damages . The blacks will give you zero. The good whites will award damages against the Plaintiffs for re-starting racial hatred just because we can.
You are down to a rare KKK type and Nazi skinheads. Too bad , so sad .
Glenn Reynolds may find a few stubborn East Tennessee retro haters of Negroes, but that is Knoxville's problem. The civilized world will not help destroy MLK's legacy. Get used to it.
Sue. Win. Slink back into obscurity, please.
Drago said...
Quaestor: "If the ACLU can the Nazis' right to lawfully parade in Skokie, then why can't they file an amicus brief on behalf of those Okie frat boys?"
They probably will.
3/11/15, 9:57 PM
I'll take that bet any day of the week. ACLU has become just another leftist cog.
I will defend the rights of others to say what they will, but their song was a pitiful embarrassment.
Kick them out? No. But do shut down their fraternity.
So which one is more able to be dropped?
It depends on the contract between them and the applicable state and local laws.
If you can force a college to keep students because they're customers
That's an overly broad statement. UO is restricted because it is a government institution, and thus banned from punishing legal speech. It is *further* restricted because UO's established policies and procedures don't provide for summary expulsion at the whim of individual officials.
If UO were a private college, and had an established policy of summary expulsion for morally unacceptable behavior or the like (as some Christian universities do), there wouldn't be a problem.
can you force a master baker to make cake for gays
Apparently.
i.e. for their customers?
The gay couple in question weren't their customers yet. That was the whole issue, really.
So how you gonna find a jury to award damages
The fact that the students are legally and morally in the right will help. :)
Ignorance is Bliss: the same precedent and law that protected the Nazis and the Klan protects you. Remove it and you remove your own protection.
Remember Thomas More's famous argument about the forest of the law with Cromwell(?)
I was in a college fraternity in the 50s and we would never have thought of singing such a song in public let alone on film (no video then.)
They were really stupid but Boren has set himself and U Ok as a piñata for a lawsuit.
They might wait until the next black riot before filing the suit. Time is on their side there.
@Revenent...You are the smartest debater I know, but you are showing yourself to be tactically ignorant if you argue for stupid white racism just because under free speech you can do it.
Do you want to see the Voting Rights Act renewed, strengthened, and extended which will end State voter ID laws, done as a gesture to get us back to zero on racial harmony? And do that at the same time we welcome our new invading army of Hispanic Pre-Americans.
And that degree of foolishness is immoral.
Ask Donald Sterling what he said that was wrong. Oh yeah, he declared black men are unacceptible inside his private rich white world. But the world unaccepted him instead. What did the NBA say to him about his right to poisonous speech? They banned him for life and told him the other owners would eliminate his Franchise unless he sold it instanter.
I wouldn't - out of a sense of shame.
They will never be heroes!!
Bill at 10:42 -
The ACLU has always been a leftist cog. It's founder's stated goal was communism.
@Revenent...You are the smartest debater I know, but you are showing yourself to be tactically ignorant if you argue for stupid white racism just because under free speech you can do it.
Give that straw man a good kicking, t-guy. Show it who's boss.
Your entire argument boils down to "I'm confident that jurors will ignore the law because MLK or something". It is extremely silly and I'll not dignify it with further comment.
The university broke the law. The students did not. If being useless assholes was a crime they'd be in jail, sure, but so would you.
traditionalguy said...
Too bad, so sad.
Once is annoying. Twice makes you sound like a 13-year-old girl.
When I was in college, the SAEs were known as the fraternity that placed their pledges on the stairway during Hell Week, and then had the active members go up and down the stairs all night. I pledged the fraternity that had its pledges build a volleyball court for Hell Week.
There's no way I would have joined any other house.
Mary Beth...What have you got against 13 year old girls.
The ones I know have sense enough to read the political times we are in and drop racism as a competitive sport and find other games that can be won.
"Too bad, so sad" is an old punch line. It means you lose as you always do when you play the game you should have figured out has no winners.
In the end, a man is a man for all of that.
Boren clearly violated their right to a fair hearing and probably also violated fair housing laws by evicting them on 24hrs notice. Free speech and due process are worth defending. They absolutely should sue.
Glenn Reynolds may find a few stubborn East Tennessee retro haters of Negroes, but that is Knoxville's problem. The civilized world will not help destroy MLK's legacy. Get used to it.
How does this help destroy MLKs legacy?
Answer; I doesn't.
It's college kids acting like, well, college kids.
If you could record the shit that goes down in black fraternaties you'd hear much the of the same thing only directed ar whites. Hell. You ever listen to rap lyrics?
Zero tolerence is stupid. The administration over reacted, They deserve to get sued.
if you want to keep your rights you may need to fight for your rights.
The first Amendment allows you to say stupid, hateful and non-PC things. It does not protect you from being publicly identified as stupid and hateful. You did that to yourself.
"I also think 1983 liability might be why all of the stories mention that the OU president personally punished the students. No other administration members seem to be involved, and maybe it's because they weren't willing to risk the personal liability that comes with violating the clearly established constitutional rights of these students."
True there is no vicarious liability under 1983, but whether he "personally" did it or not, it was an official act. OU would still be on the hook, I think.
"Heroes" is a bit of a stretch.
I think it is pitiful that a stupid drunken song sung by drunken college kids can excite so much hatred. They didn't use any words as bad as on any rap music album. This is what is called youthful indiscretion. It might call for some sort of discipline action, but the politically inspired expulsion is just more faux outrage from race hustlers.
There is a lot of wishful thinking among commenters here.
I think they should sue. Free speech isn't worth much if you don't defend it every now and then. They have made their lives difficult and if I were them, I might want it all just to go away. So I can understand if they don't sue.
"If these young men get inflated into seeing themselves as heroes — or victims — what happens next? Where do their lives go when the free-speech advocates move on?"
Maybe enroll in Women's Studies?
"the politically inspired expulsion is just more faux outrage from race hustlers."
Of course but this is now a different country than it was in 2000. I don't know if we can ever get the other one back.
The heroes of the Skokie case were not the KKK marchers, but the ACLU. The ACLU has been using that ever since as a shield for the "L" in their acronym.
These bozos in Oklahoma will never be heroes.
There's no starting over with Google. Everything is for keeps.
They should sue, then come out as "identifying" as women. Or gay.
Then what lefties?
richard mcenroe said...
the same precedent and law that protected the Nazis and the Klan protects you. Remove it and you remove your own protection.
I absolutely support their first amendment rights. That doesn't make them heros.
Even murderers get defense lawyers.
Even assholes have First Amendment rights.
ADDED: They're self-tarred as racists. Should they use a lawsuit to elevate themselves into heroes? That has risks!
I'd rehabilitate racism to disable it as a code word for idiot responses.
It's a damn song.
You could look at how the guy acts towards blacks instead, and decide whether to associate with him or not.
A public morality play is fatal to actual morality.
Any "atonement" is between them and God. They didn't commit any sort of crime. They sang a dumb song with naughty words on a bus ride, for Christ's sake. How about we all get off our high horse and stop pretending that being offensive is the Worst Thing Ever?
And they clearly are victims. Victims of a university president who thinks he has personal authority to banish his subjects for saying things he and his court advisers dislike. People who are jerks can be victims, too. And no matter what they do next, the SJW Witchfinders will use social media and personal power to make examples of them for years to come. If they want to take away your rights, make them come and get them.
"The horse has left the barn re: NOT being considered racist shit-for-brains. "
-- Well, when you ACT like a duck, people think you're a duck.
Shall I sue, shall I seek for grace?
Shall I pray shall I prove?
Shall I strive to a heav'nly joy,
With an earthly love?
Shall I think that a bleeding heart
Or a wounded eye,
Or a sigh can ascend the clouds,
To attain so high?
Dowland
This seems very similar to the California flag haters case. In both cases, students did something stupid that was also harmless and inconsequential.
In the first instance, conservatives went nuts and the university stepped in and fixed it. Hopefully we're done and everybody moves on with their lives. The students perhaps a little wiser.
In this case, the university went nuts and conservatives are stepping in to try and get the right outcome. Hopefully When it's over the students will go on with their lives, perhaps a little wiser.
"Heroes" is a bit of a stretch.
Everyone who has been the victim of a breech First Amendment protections like those frat brothers in Oklahoma is un-heroic, it least to contemporary observers. People who say nice things aren't expelled, or evicted, or jailed, or beaten, or tortured, or killed -- and by nice I mean conforming to the prejudices of majority. The free speech martyr is always despised by the majority because he says things or writes things or makes photographs of that which the majority finds objectionable. So when the government cracks down on Nazis like Lincoln Rockwell or pornographers like Larry Flynt we all tend to think "good, the bastard needs to be shut up since what he says is so horrible, so false, and so hurtful."
But the bastards are heroes, and here's why -- we wouldn't have a First Amendment except for the fact that back in the 1780's not all Americans were approved of by the majority. Some were Catholics, some were Jews, and some Quakers... and some weren't too happy with the break with England. These people were afraid that the new American nation would turn on them for being nonconformists, and would enacts restraining laws against their worship, schools, festivals, and observances. Some slaveholders feared the abolitionists. Some abolitionists feared the slaveholders. We must remember that the Constitution in it's original form contained no restraints on legislative power that would prevent enactment of laws against the saying and hearing of Mass, for example. Under the charter of the Massachusetts Bay Colony Catholics and Catholicism were banned absolutely. In 1788 Massachusetts was still overwhelmingly Calvinist, and in the 18th century Calvinist zeitgeist a Catholic was either an ignorant superstitious peasant, or an idolator in league with Anti-Christ, a least as bad a racist today.
Everybody who has an opinion and his ballsy enough to express that opinion is somebody's worthless bastard who needs to shut the fuck up, get right with God, and dress like a human being fer chrissake. It was the nonconformist bastards of 1788 who insisted on free speech. Without them America could have wound up like any tin-plated dictatorship. Dictators always curb speech, and the reason they give is always "we gotta shut up the bastards!" The bastards are a minority, so the majority don't complain too much, except when it too late as Bonhoeffer discovered to his sorrow.
If they sue and win, I wonder if anyone will make a People vs. Stupid Racists movie.
The frat boys acted stupidly.
I don't know why Instapundit thinks they will be held up as First Amendment heroes. The nazis in Skokie didn't become First Amendment heroes, they were just racist jerks that happened to win their case. Same deal here, these guys are going to be racist jerks whether or not they had the right to chant or not.
I'm always shocked by how many people are willing to chuck the First Amendment. I suppose at this time in my life I shouldn't be.
Here's why the SAE students need to sue: because they try to kick you out of college for a hell of a lot less than that--"water buffalo" and "niggardly" come to mind.
"But those aren't racist!" say trad guy and Ann. No, but someone in authority thought they were and sought to punish people for them.
If you put something that is unambiguously racist into the category of obviously protected speech, the water buffalos and the niggards, which are only considered racist by some people, will also be protected much more securely.
"Would the damages be worth more than the attendant publicity?"
Well, the toot's already out of the horn and there's no way to un-sound it. In bygone days this might have been forgotten, but the Internet remembers forever.
So, they'll have to live with the reality that anyone who wants to can and probably will find the video. Perhaps they'll come up with stock stories of regret to deal with that?
But no doubt money damages could help support them while they're developing their stories.
Of course, they might win their suit only to be awarded some cash for the lawyers, plus a nominal $1., and (perhaps) a court order for some specific performance from the university?
Freder Frederson said...
I don't know why Instapundit thinks they will be held up as First Amendment heroes. The nazis in Skokie didn't become First Amendment heroes, they were just racist jerks that happened to win their case. Same deal here, these guys are going to be racist jerks whether or not they had the right to chant or not.
Ye Freder, they are racist jerks, but they are racist jerks who need to prevail in order to protect the rights of jerks like you.
If the university had to re-admit them, does anyone think they'd be graded fairly?
@Freder, the students have a choice between being ordinary racist shitheads and wealthy racist shitheads. They should sue for so much in punitive damages that Boren has to sit on a street corner with a cardboard sign and a tin cup.
The students gain nothing from suing because they already are heroes to the same people who would call them heroes if they sue.
Surely, the SAE brothers are the latest additions to the Conservative Mt. Olympus...along with Zimmerman, the Robertson's, and Reagan.
They should sue for so much in punitive damages that Boren has to sit on a street corner with a cardboard sign and a tin cup.
You're not going to get much punitive damages out of this case. The best they could hope for is reinstatement or perhaps an order for OU to follow the established procedure for expulsion.
TradGuy is missing the point being made.
It's a legal one, not a cultural one.
They can sue and they can win, because the University broke the law by expelling them.
They will still be shamed for what they've done, and may not want to return to Oklahoma even if they win reinstatement.
"Hopefully we're done and everybody moves on with their lives. The students perhaps a little wiser."
The UCI faculty has now stepped in with a demand to exclude the flag. The first time as tragedy; the second time as farce.
If the university had to re-admit them, does anyone think they'd be graded fairly?
Most professors wouldn't know of their involvement, IMO. Sure, the name might ring a bell, but would the prof google the name to figure it out? No.
I've never done a web search on my students, with the exception of after class is done (I was writing a final report on a grant and wanted to know what they were doing...didn't find out much).
the real problem is that this insane idea that if you - in PRIVATE - say something "racist" you therefore hate someone and therefor should be punished and destroyed because you are worst person ever.
Even worse than a thief or a liar but a little less than a child molester.
As someone once said, Fascism would come to America under the banner of doing good.
The whole idea of "Speech codes" and "Hate Speech" is UnAmerican and Unconstitutional.
They should be done away with.
Quaestor: Everyone who has been the victim of a breech First Amendment protections like those frat brothers in Oklahoma is un-heroic, it least to contemporary observers.[...]
Everybody who has an opinion and his ballsy enough to express that opinion is somebody's worthless bastard who needs to shut the fuck up, get right with God, and dress like a human being fer chrissake.
Nicely put, Q-man.
Even murderers get defense lawyers.
Even assholes have First Amendment rights.
Succinct. True. No further comment.
rhhardin said...
It's a damn song.
Someone in a different thread suggested that it was a reaction to the official anti-white racism at colleges. It's understandable that many people feel like "fuck you" after their quasi-involuntary anti-white racism training, er, I meant "diversity training", but it was obviously very stupid of them to sing it in public when cameras are ubiquitous and the only allowed - nay, celebrated! - racism is anti-white (and occasionally anti-Asian) racism.
You could look at how the guy acts towards blacks instead, and decide whether to associate with him or not.
Here is what the professional racists at OU say about treating people differently based on their race:
"Diversity Enrichment Programs representatives work with prospective African American, Latino, Asian American and Native American students and their families as they navigate the high school to college transition."
and
"Join us at the University of Oklahoma April 17 - 19 for an exciting new initiative that focuses entirely on the collegiate success of African American males."
I don't know why Instapundit thinks they will be held up as First Amendment heroes. The nazis in Skokie didn't become First Amendment heroes, they were just racist jerks that happened to win their case.
But the people / organizations that defended them (e.g., the ACLU and lawyers) are held up as heroes.
tradguide, you keep throwing that mud at Rick Perry. It really makes you look like a big man. Excuse me, I meant scumbag.
As for the stupid SAEs, so they should forgo justice and go straight to pipe bombs? If you say so.
trad-guy: Does anybody remember how MLK won legal desegregation?
Probably a lot more people than want to consciously notice that de facto segregation continues, and has probably increased by some measures. And how many of the righteously indignant old women of both sexes and all ages, who are always so eager to be seen in public loudly and ostentatiously denouncing the boors du jour who are being segregationist with their mouths, are every bit as segregationist when it comes to "voting with their feet"?
He won by shaming the good white southerners into.
So you can shame decent white people out of racist attitudes? Well, that's nice. So what's your plan for dealing with "re-starting racial hatred" problems among all the growing proportion of non-white folks out there, at least as racist, and who don't do racial shame?
Disowning the community enforcers of racial hatreds of black men for existing.
That victory stands.
Not much of a victory if the set of "community enforcers of racial hatred" who are being "disowned" comprises a small subset of no-account whites (and only whites), while segregation and cultural fracturing continues apace, and everybody else is indulged in their racial resentments.
So how you gonna find a jury to award damages . The blacks will give you zero. The good whites will award damages against the Plaintiffs for re-starting racial hatred just because we can.
Well, they can't, as has been explained to you, but at any rate, when did decent white people elect a holy-rolling little "men not laws" piss-ant like you as their representative?
You are down to a rare KKK type and Nazi skinheads. Too bad , so sad.
Indeed. Granting that "KKK types" and "Nazi skinheads" even exist anymore outside of prison populations or imaginative fund-raising literature, isn't it interesting how a few marginal lunkheads, whom you claim all decent people hate, can time after time get the MSM caterwauling at ear-splitting decibel levels as if they were The Terror of Our Age, and apparently normal adults twittering and blogging and facebooking in a state of hysteria last seen among possessed teen-age Salem girls?
It's almost as if these shabby miscreants had some important ritual function, entirely out of proportion to their negligible status and influence.
Ann Althouse said...I say settle and try to find your way back to a good life, the kind of good life the University of Oklahoma must surely want for all its students
No ma'am, not all students. The Univ President explicitly said the Univ isn't interesed it working for/serving bigots. So if they decide you're a bigot, that student doesn't count in your "all."
@Angelyne...I agree with your points as far as I understand them. At least you are dealing with the problem.
King gave us a solution which he stuck to in good faith when he offered both sides peace and not a war.
It worked because good southern whites were for the first time since 1828 no longer afraid of violence from an uprising by black men and switched sides from White supremacy to equality.
NB: a change in Culture has to precede a change in Law.
If this generation chucks that and wants its own war games, then just admit it and go for it. Reenact the Battle of Roarks Drift in Missouri.
That is what Obama's gang seeks to have happen every chance they get in hopes there will be an emergency that allows them to disarm both sides.
I think the students who did this should slink away in shame, let time pass and do everything they can to never feel like a victim.
Yes, the first amendment allowed the Nazis to march in Skokie, but I really hope the students don't see that as something to emulate. If they do, then nothing we can suggest here matters.
These frat boys should take a page out of the Planet Fitness playbook:
Claim that they sincerely self-identify as African American, and claim that others are being "judgemental".
A lawyer has an obligation to represent the best interests of his clients. I agree that the punishment is disproportionate and violative of first amendment rights, but the kids did what they did. If it becomes a test case, they will not become famous as first amendment advocates but as bigoted frat boys. This is unfair, but that's the way the mop flops........The media forms a protective bubble around some protected species. I have yet to see a single probing question directed at a member of the Brown family, nor any investigative reporting directed at their background. And for other people, the protective bubble becomes a pin cushion. These students can expect to have their ex girlfriends interviewed. Any disparaging info in their or their family's background will be brought to light and exhibited as the key, salient fact about them. The game isn't worth the candle.
"...I really hope the students don't see that as something to emulate. If they do, then nothing we can suggest here matters."
1. I suspect that "nothing we suggest here" matters in any case.
2. You think people who have their rights trampled should just acquiesce, because... why, again?
@Revenent...You are the smartest debater I know, but you are showing yourself to be tactically ignorant if you argue for stupid white racism just because under free speech you can do it.
As the old saying goes, popular speech needs no protection. The unpopular stuff does.
I'm not going to sacrifice Constitutional principles because feelings were hurt.
I doubt Rev would do so, either.
Ask Donald Sterling what he said that was wrong. Oh yeah, he declared black men are unacceptible inside his private rich white world. But the world unaccepted him instead. What did the NBA say to him about his right to poisonous speech? They banned him for life and told him the other owners would eliminate his Franchise unless he sold it instanter.
You're holding up a guy who lost his team because his conversations were illegally taped as being a "good" thing?
Do you think SJW will leave you alone if you chastise people now?
The students gain nothing from suing because they already are heroes to the same people who would call them heroes if they sue.
Surely, the SAE brothers are the latest additions to the Conservative Mt. Olympus...along with Zimmerman, the Robertson's, and Reagan.
Apparently "opposing a blatant railroading" is now deifying people.
Don't worry --- the mob will NEVER turn on you. Just ask Robespierre.
Mobs are often known for logic.
The UCI faculty has now stepped in with a demand to exclude the flag. The first time as tragedy; the second time as farce.
I have no beef with that.
Just pull every penny of federal money out of the school as well.
Have fun with no research grants or student loans.
Yes, the first amendment allowed the Nazis to march in Skokie, but I really hope the students don't see that as something to emulate. If they do, then nothing we can suggest here matters.
Any other superfluous rights that should be done away to appease a mob?
Flashback:
traditionalguy said...
The symbol of equality in Atlanta after MLK was the taboo made of the N---er word. That word was a slur meaning uneducated and unclean , and it's use became a sign of uneducated whites. But to this day Texans, who do the same thing to the Hispanics, distinguish their State from Georgia by referring to Atlanta as N---er Town.
10/3/11, 12:06 PM
Remember when you read "traditionalguy's" comments, that you're dealing with a liar who has been making shit up for years in an effort to stoke racial discord.
It does not protect you from being publicly identified as stupid and hateful. You did that to yourself.
No one, I mean no one, in this thread, or any other that I've read has anyone posited that the above is not true, (other than maybe on Stormfront or some other site like it). So I have no idea why people in every thread I've read feels they have to reiterate this point.
bbkingfish: "Surely, the SAE brothers are the latest additions to the Conservative Mt. Olympus...along with Zimmerman, the Robertson's, and Reagan."
Remember, under no circumstances are you to lump all islamists in when islamist radicals commit terroist acts.
Because blaming all islamists for the acts of "some" is wrong in every way possible.
So sayeth the left.
All the time.
Gee, it's almost like it should be a universal principle or something.
Nah.
Terrorists lopping off heads and enslaving/raping/mutilating women is one thing.
But at least they aren't Republicans!
Tradguy: " But to this day Texans, who do the same thing to the Hispanics, distinguish their State from Georgia by referring to Atlanta as N---er Town."
Having lived and worked in both Texas and Atlanta GA for many years, this comment by Trad guy is unrecognizable to me.
And given the breadth of my experience there and how common Tradguy makes it sound, it seems unlikely that I wouldn't have encountered such a sentiment even once.
I wonder if bbkingfish likes visiting "hymietown". Probably not, because, you know, "hymies".
I would like to think that bbkingfish doesn't really adhere to those sorts of outdated and bigoted views, but he has convinced me that I'm wrong on that count.
"I say settle and try to find your way back to a good life, the kind of good life the University of Oklahoma must surely want for all its students."
Not for these guys, they don't. They don't want them to be able to settle. They want them branded and ostracized and their lives ruined pour encourager les autres. The object is not only to punish them, but to make the rest of the students afraid to even THINK unapproved thoughts.
bbbkingfish,
Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn were terrorists, participating in attempted murders of different people by planning and executing bombings. They get hired by colleges, teach there, and are celebrated.
Stupid young kids say the wrong word in a drunken frat song, and people want to run them out of the country on a rail.
Maybe you ought to think first about who you're lumping together before you make stupid comments.
NB: a change in Culture has to precede a change in Law.
If this generation chucks that and wants its own war games, then just admit it and go for it. Reenact the Battle of Roarks Drift in Missouri.
You seem to assume that only white culture needs to change.
Can you explain WHY?
Black culture has plenty to answer for. Shouldn't they also change some?
Are all other cultures perfect EXCEPT for white culture? Note: Not a lot of gangbanging or high violent crime rates in cities that are heavily white. Is the same the case in citires that are heavily black?
Drago...I respect you so let me try again. I suspect Your experience is sheltered from the culture standards among the actually wealthy inside groups that are mega investors in land, oil and commercial real estate.
Texas wealth controls Texas and their Dallas based corporations build and manage office buildings campuses and shopping malls. After the oil price crash in the early 1980s crashed Texas' commercial real estate's bubble in the Houston and Dallas metro areas (and also created the S&L bailout ) the big boys in Dallas came over to a their rival Atlanta's growing market to create and manage mega development projects here.
They were astounded by the way Atlanta had developed between the African American City Government and major corporate wealth a tacit arrangement that cut in the black leaders for a 30% minority owned share in the deals using mandatory entities/partnerships for construction and related professional work.
For example, Atlanta Airport construction and operations were done that way whether the African American minority did any real work except to slow it down for a cut of the profits. And ATL Airport is huge operation that has never stopped being built and operates the most passenger flights in the Nation.
In this context the Dallas executives were shocked by the way Atlanta let itself be run by Niggers compared toTexas traditions.
Those are the Texans whose kids sing SAE declarations that " Lincoln set them free, but they will never sign with me. there will never be a nigger in SAE." Or in their ownership and management of wealth.
My son at TCU was deeply into those families living in that world for eight years,including the Bush Presidents and their nemesis Ross Perot. The son was impressed by that attitude which was taboo in a Atlanta.
You are full of shit, traditonalguy.
The only person who has ever referred to Atlanta as "Niggertown" is you.
You are projecting your own racist attitude and behavior onto some nebulous cabal of "Texas wealth" and "Dallas executives".
And it's sad that you think anyone here would be gullible enough to believe that your son hung out with Ross Perot or either President Bush during his 8 years(!) at college.
My Last comment on the blindness of de facto racism is just don't do it. Racist rabble rousers can't make you a racist. You do that.
Not so long ago the south was invaded and Atlanta was destroyed by Ohio boys named Sherman and a Grant (with help from Wisconsin men ) sent down here with guns by an small town Illinois trial lawyer named Lincoln. We had to take that painful experience seriously for a long time and we're open to MLK's solution of equal treatment of men that are different.
Other than a few wise ones, it appears that the rest of the culture fights the need to change unless it too finds staying the same more painful than to change saying a few words.
Obama sits in a pew while his priest says God damn Amerikkka for 20 years. And he's president. So why should a little racism disqualify you from an education?
I recently read an article about people who said something stupid and offensive on social media and then had their lives destroyed by social shaming. Fired from jobs, kicked out of school, unhireable once prospective employers Googled them and learned of their social transgressions. It was compared to a modern version of putting people in stocks for public humiliation. Not all cases involved such egregious behavior as singing racist songs; sometimes it was somebody thinking they were being clever and shooting wide of the mark. It's scary how one stupid remark or tweet can ruin someone's life and follow them around forever, because the internet never forgets.
Parker Rice withdrew from Oklahoma University. That doesn't help his standing in a potential lawsuit. He should have forced the university to expel him.
His shame and humiliation may never end. Yesterday a Dallas-area group called Next Generation Action Network planned a protest at Rice's parent's house. I kinda feel sorry for him. He's six months out of high school.
I think "traditional guy" has been watching too many re-runs of Dallas. Who are these "Dallas executives" of whom he speaks?
Having been to Africa and India on several occasions for business and seeing firsthand the struggle people have to go through every day to simply survive (such as simply getting a hot meal or clean glass of water) I'm a little amused at all the hand-wringing and commiserating over some drunken college nimrods acting stupidly and saying outrageous things. It's sorta like what they do; kinda like a bird flies or a river flows. The combined salaries of the three "analysts" in the MSNBC video clip offering their expert commentary on why drunken frat boys do stupid things at times could probably feed a village in Zambia for a season.
This is - shall we say - a "first world problem"?
I remember as a kid getting in fights in the schoolyard or at sports practice when tempers flared. Sometimes we boys cussed and shouted at each other. We didn't have any black kids at our school, but there were poor kids who dressed shabbily (this was sort of a right down the middle-class white inner-ring suburban area in the Midwest). They took a verbal ribbing when things got out of control, but they dished it out, too.
On such occasions the adults in room pulled us apart and talked to us, then forced us to apologize to each other, shake hands and then get back to work on the collective task in which we were all engaged.
Question: where are the adults in the room in our current culture?
Update: a bunch of cowards or hacks just got called out on Instapundit.
Todd Roberson: Question: where are the adults in the room in our current culture?
That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? Glad to see a few people in this thread seem to have some perspective about what's going on here.
It's all so childish. I don't mean the drunken frat boys "acting stupidly and saying outrageous things. As you say, "It's sorta like what they do; kinda like a bird flies or a river flows." I mean all the alleged adults involved or throwing in their two cents. My first reaction to Boren was, "This is the way a grown man talks?" Then the rest of the world piled in with the non-stop church-lady posturing and adolescent angst.
What the hell is wrong with people? Bad enough if this was a one-off, but this National Weekly Struggle Session crap has become a serious civic pathology. And "conservative" people who claim to know better than the retarded lefty vandals fomenting the hysteria play right along - "We're not racist! Burn the racists!".
"Remember when you read "traditionalguy's" comments..."
Who reads them anymore? Surely not I! Didn't we all read his completely inscrutable stuff about Zimmerman/Martin, and his endless recursive doubling-down about that case, and go WTF? WT f'ing F????
Todd Roberson,
My what a quaint outlook you bring, thinking there are actual adults within 50 miles of this pathetic controversy! :-(
Todd,
"Having been to Africa and India on several occasions for business "
As an old Africa hand myself, I'd love to here more. Where, for what, and for how long?
To answer my questions myself, I spend 5 years in (then) southern Sudan, working at a linguist/anthropologist for a literacy/bible translation project. We were there for the startup of the 2nd Sudanese Civil War in 1983. Oy.
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