२७ मार्च, २०१५

"Shame... is a social feeling, born from a perception of other people’s disgust, a susceptibility to their contempt and derision."

"You see yourself from the point of view of your detractors; you pelt yourself with their revulsion, and as you do you begin... to lose track of the self altogether. Someone else’s narrow, stiffened vision of who you are replaces your own mottled, expansive one. As Lewinsky listened to the recordings of her phone calls, she tells us, she heard her voice as if it belonged to a different person: 'My sometimes catty, sometimes churlish, sometimes silly self being cruel, unforgiving, uncouth.' It was 'the worst version of myself, a self I didn’t even recognize.'"

From a New Yorker article by Alexandra Schwartz called "Monica Lewinsky and the Shame Game."

४८ टिप्पण्या:

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Public shaming works when the target agrees with the evaluation made of him by the attacker. Being vulnerable to shame and guilt is a profound weakness that can be preyed upon by anyone who sees it.

Many raise children by implanting shame triggers for future use.

So when Chris Kyle said, "I am willing to meet my Creator and answer to God for every shot that I took," the psychologist watched and wondered where he found that strength.

Brian म्हणाले...

There is a word for people who never feel shame in the way that Schwartz defines it here. The word is "sociopath."

HoodlumDoodlum म्हणाले...

Is knowingly having an affair with a person married to someone else a shameful act? Did Lewinsky intentionally commit that act? If so why is shame inappropriate?

I understand the scale and public nature of the shaming were vastly larger and more intense than she would have imagined, but I don't like the implied argument that shame is wrong in that situation (or others). People should be ashamed of shameful acts! I know her response is "oh everyone's done things in their 20s they regret later," and that's probably true, but that doesn't mean those people shouldn't regret the (bad) things they did! Is it too much to say "yeah, I shouldn't have done those things with a married man, not because of the consequences that actually occurred but because that action itself is morally wrong?"

Hagar म्हणाले...

Why be ashamed of being a slut?

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Living without shame is a socio's long and lonely path. How can we train them if they don't fear us? Maybe just elect them president and watch.

Joe म्हणाले...

What a perverse article; shame is not the fault of the shamed, but rather the rest of us narrow-minded folks.

To argue that disapproval of immoral or abhorrent behavior is wrong is not only beyond bizarre, it is tantamount to, as Brian said, suggesting that being a sociopath is the only proper way to live.

Eric the Fruit Bat म्हणाले...

Back in the Pleistocene, you felt ashamed so they'd lay off you so you could come up with a better way to steal scarce resources.

BarrySanders20 म्हणाले...

Ha! Bill never felt any shame!

Be like Bill!

buwaya म्हणाले...

Joe is right.
This is an insane article.

Brian म्हणाले...

The trouble with all this fashionable theorizing against "shame" is that it accomplishes too much. What the proponents of these theories really want is to move some set of behaviors --- extramarital sex, default on a home loan, being fat --- from the "bad" column to the "good" column. They should just say so. But instead they choose to twist themselves in knots, denying that there are columns at all. Unless of course we're shortly going to get some missive from Schwartz on how terribly ill-used and unfairly "shamed" was, say, Mel Gibson...

Laslo Spatula म्हणाले...

The key to Shame is to be Proud of it.

I am not ashamed of my Shame.


I am Laslo.

Fen म्हणाले...

What about the shame of trading sex for jobs?

There were several very capable interns who did not get job interviews with the UN or Revlon, solely because they chose not to perform oral sex on their boss.

What about them, Monica?

David म्हणाले...

That's the narcissist's definition of shame.

FullMoon म्हणाले...

Most people used to be ashamed of being on welfare. Of having a bastard child. Of getting an abortion. Fortunately, times have changed

, Reading the Starr report, it seems Monica was deeply in love. Women, and men, in love can rationalize some crazy stuff. She thought Bill would divorce Hillary in the future and marry her. I think she saved that dress as a token of his love for her.



SomeoneHasToSayIt म्हणाले...

So I guess someone important enough to respect, has finally written something about 'shame'.

Less snooty people, and regular readers, already know what they need to know about shame, from my previous posts on this site.

Not to cast pearls before swine remains my biggest unlearned lesson, I guess.

I am not Laslo.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

The great thing about embarrassment is that it's contageous.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Goffman on embarrassment :

"In all these settings the same fundamental thing occurs : the expressive facts at hand threaten or discredit the assumptions that a participant finds he has projected about his identity. Thereafter those present find they can neither do without the assumptions nor base their own responses upon them. The inhabitable reality shrinks until everyond feels small and out of place."

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Embarrassment is a putty that temporarily fills gaps in a society's structure.

Joe Shropshire म्हणाले...

Mary McGrory of the Washington Post once wrote of Bill Clinton: If Bill Clinton had any shame he would have long since died of it. Shame is for little people, same as rules are.

JAORE म्हणाले...

I can certainly thank Bill and Monica for giving me an opportunity to explain what oral sex is after our very young son heard the term on the news broadcast.

Ever the champion of early education that Bill Clinton.


n.n म्हणाले...

Shame is also an independent feeling or feedback that is caused by violating principles of conscience. Many, perhaps most, people will feel shamed without an actual or perceived external response.

Peter म्हणाले...

The question is not whether there will be social control: there will, or there will be no society.

The question is whether that control will be imposed internally by citizens who have internalized social values and regulate themselves accordingly, or whether it will be imposed externally, by force.

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Shame is the submission instinct. Religions use it to help themselves. But the anti-religion will show up in the scripture by Paul that explains the Sole Fides teaching so hostile to religious guilt.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"Is knowingly having an affair with a person married to someone else a shameful act?"

Even if it's a sham marriage?

No-shame advocates don't mean it. They just want to control the shaming. Prog Puritans are busy working on their own columns of bad.

donald म्हणाले...

Is knowingly having an affair with a person married to someone else a shameful act? Did Lewinsky intentionally commit that act? If so why is shame inappropriate?

I understand the scale and public nature of the shaming were vastly larger and more intense than she would have imagined, but I don't like the implied argument that shame is wrong in that situation (or others). People should be ashamed of shameful acts! I know her response is "oh everyone's done things in their 20s they regret later," and that's probably true, but that doesn't mean those people shouldn't regret the (bad) things they did! Is it too much to say "yeah, I shouldn't have done those things with a married man, not because of the consequences that actually occurred but because that action itself is morally wrong?"

Again, there was no affair. This bimbo's mouth was a sperm receptive and her vagina was a cigar humidor for a monster that didn't even know her name.

Beth B म्हणाले...

I think the point of the article is the way social media and the internet have taken away all sense of proportionality. It's not just about asking people to take responsibility for their own actions or having enough of a personal sense of shame to not do rotten things. It's become more of a vigilante mindset, where the mob takes it upon itself to go punish a transgressor. The Red Meat of the day gets chummed into the water, and like dutiful little sharks, the Twitterers & Facebookers tear it to bits.

I can't help but wonder sometimes if its less about actual righteous indignation and more about people taking the bait. In which case, shouldn't we be asking who's doing the fishing here?

chickelit म्हणाले...

In German, die Scham means shame, vulva, pudenda, private parts.

Ask rhhardin about the Latin roots.

HoodlumDoodlum म्हणाले...

Fen said...
What about the shame of trading sex for jobs?


And lying under oath, obstructing justice by lying when deposed for a lawsuit, right? I can't remember if she actually did lie or only told Tripp she was going to, but if she did lie about her sexual activity when under oath isn't that shameful? I don't think we all perjure ourselves when were're in our 20s, do we? Oh well, it's just "about sex" so it's ok to lie under oath, I guess.

HoodlumDoodlum म्हणाले...

donald said...Again, there was no affair. This bimbo's mouth was a sperm receptive and her vagina was a cigar humidor for a monster that didn't even know her name.

Well ok, I was being polite, donald, but if you prefer it my question still stands when phrased as: Is giving oral sex to and engaging in other sexual activity with a man who is married to someone else shameful?

HoodlumDoodlum म्हणाले...

By the way, the whole (puported) point of the anti-Slut Shaming movement is to destigmatize single women having as many sexual partners/engaging in whatever kind of sex (casual or otherwise) they want without social opprobrium. Even if one grants that, it does at all follow therefrom that ALL sexual behavior is therefore socially OK--in other words you can be a feminist slut-walker and still think it's morally wrong to engage in sexual activity with a person to whom you aren't married!

Unknown म्हणाले...

This is what the gay-rights movement is all about; people are/do things they know instinctively they feel uncomfortable about (translation: shame) and don't want to be ashamed. When they FEEL like they are being are called on it, it's perceived as an insult. In most cases, nobody really cares enough to actually comment unless they are force to acknowledge unseemly behavior or it otherwise affects them personally.

And it's so mean to insult, we gotta make these people feel good about themselves no matter what they are doing as long is it doesn't hurt anyone else.

khesanh0802 म्हणाले...

There was a day when shaming was simple and clear. All it took was an "A".

SGT Ted म्हणाले...

Her shame is appropriate. She was fucking another woman's husband.

Her solipsism and rationalizing her using her own sexuality to gain advantage in the workplace is the problem, not her feeling shame.

SGT Ted म्हणाले...

This is the attempt to resurrect the virtue of a stupid, slutty bimbo.

SGT Ted म्हणाले...

The slutty bimbo wants to be seen as a victim of the meanies. She still refuses to take responsibility for her actions, which were shameful and wrong.

SGT Ted म्हणाले...

The slutty bimbo needs to shut her yap. She's embarrassing herself.

FullMoon म्हणाले...

Fen said... [hush]​[hide comment]

What about the shame of trading sex for jobs?

There were several very capable interns who did not get job interviews with the UN or Revlon, solely because they chose not to perform oral sex on their boss.

No offense, Fen, but that sounds pretty goddamn stupid.

Bet a dollar you cannot back up that idiotic statement.

FullMoon म्हणाले...

donald said
This bimbo's mouth was a sperm receptive and her vagina was a cigar humidor for a monster that didn't even know her name.
.

I'm the most ignorant, least educated commenter here, donald, That sentence is so bad it hurts my eyes.
And I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that Monica did not insert that cigar, but rather gently moistened it with love while gazing longingly into Billys soulful eyes.

Oh, and he knew her name, Miss Lewinsky.
The logistics just seem improbable to me. Maybe some of the ladies here will clarify.

Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...

If Hillary had shot Monica would she be out by now?

raf म्हणाले...

So, is it all right to not feel ashamed of being politically incorrect now?

Skyler म्हणाले...

Or maybe shame is a result of knowing you are a slut and realizing that you can't hide that fact from the world anymore.

That woman is a slut. Shame on her and shame on anyone defending her. She interfered in a marriage (be what it may), which is normally called home wrecker, but in this case she was a presidential administration wrecker.

And yet still they blame Linda Tripp who is the hero of the story for exposing this tramp and revealing the lies of the President.

Gabriel म्हणाले...

I would say that shame is very different from guilt.

"Shame" is how other people look on you for what you did. "Guilt" is how you look on yourself for what you did.

If shame is your motivator, you are content not to get caught doing what others disapprove of and you go along with things others do that you disagree with. These are the cultures that stone adulterous women and lynch men.

I prefer a guilt-based society. In a shame-based society, it is much easier to follow a multitude to do evil.

I Have Misplaced My Pants म्हणाले...

I am not ashamed that I can't stand self-righteousness and moral dudgeon.

Good heavens, SGT Ted. Almost twenty years ago she was a very young woman who made some mistakes. Your hostility and name-calling--four separate posts' worth!--is a little over the top.

People are human. They do bad things sometimes. That does not mean they become worthless human beings.

CStanley म्हणाले...

I think she's certainly paid the price and agree with IHMMP that the insults here are beyond uncharitable.

She's earned the right to reclaim her life and reputation but I don't think it was wrong that she was shamed at the time. The degree was excessive, perhaps, but then again that was because of the particular choice she made (not just an affair but with POTUS.)

However....the one thing that I think everyone should agree on is that two people did shameful things and only one paid the price for it....and that was very wrong. That itself makes me feel a lot more sympathy for Monica than I would otherwise.

FullMoon म्हणाले...

Have Misplaced My Pants said...

I am not ashamed that I can't stand self-righteousness and moral dudgeon.

Good heavens, SGT Ted. Almost twenty years ago she was a very young woman who made some mistakes. Your hostility and name-calling--four separate posts' worth!--is a little over the top.

People are human. They do bad things sometimes. That does not mean they become worthless human beings.

Sgt. does seem to take it rather personally. Can't begin to imagine why, can you?

Fen म्हणाले...

Fen: "There were several very capable interns who did not get job interviews with the UN or Revlon, solely because they chose not to perform oral sex on their boss.

Full Moon: No offense, Fen, but that sounds pretty goddamn stupid. Bet a dollar you cannot back up that idiotic statement.

You are not aware that Vernon Jordan offered her job interviews at the UN and Revlon because she was blowing Clinton?

SGT Ted म्हणाले...

Her whining attempt to portray her shame as other peoples problems is bullshit.

It really has nothing to do with me.

Trying to make it about me just shows you're falling for her whiney bullshit.

She is trying to resurrect her virtue by blaming other people for her feeling shame over her own fuck ups.
If she had come out and said, "Yea I was a fucked up chick and deserved what I got." I'd have respect for her. But she didn't, did she. She is still in denial.

Why are you white knighting for her? What's that say about you?

FullMoon म्हणाले...

Yo, Fen,
Who were the very capable interns who did not get job interviews with the UN or Revlon, solely because they chose not to perform oral sex on their boss?

Your prior question to me has no relation to the statement I asked you to qualify. It remains a stupid comment.