"It’s a tool of power. That might be why they’re parsing. They don’t want to look at what is really going on around them," said Holly Mullen of the Rape Recovery Center, inviting Republicans to topple into the political pitfall of the day: the question whether sex with an unconscious person is always, automatically rape.
Utah is considering dropping the words "has not consented" from the section of its criminal code that says it's sexual assault if "the victim has not consented and the actor knows the victim is unconscious, unaware that the act is occurring, or physically unable to resist."
It's a tempting topic, isn't it? You see how much trouble you can get into if you take this bait?
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९९ टिप्पण्या:
That's what it is. Bait.
They can no longer talk about real sexual assault, especially now that "Mattress girl's" story has fallen apart.
Just say "Sex without consent is rape. If you are raped, go to the police"
I don't get why feminists are so gung-ho to minimize what rape is.
I've awoken in the midst of fucking. I don't think I started it either, my girlfriend was on top. Was she awake at the time? I have no idea. Assault? The idea didn't even occur to me.
Men, particularly college-aged men, need to fuck crazy women and report them for assault the next day as often as humanly possible. Tear that system down hard.
Also, men need to demand the right to videotape sexual encounters given the lack of any legal possibility of defense otherwise.
Why should we interfere in what consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their own bedrooms?
This relates back to the previous post. If having intercourse with a person who's not fully conscious is rape, then Jill Biden is a felon.
damikesc said...
Just say "Sex without consent is rape. If you are raped, go to the police"
I don't get why feminists are so gung-ho to minimize what rape is.
What they're doing is changing the definition of rape as a tool to get back at men for grievances, real or imagined. The most radical of them go so far as to declare all heterosexual sex as rape, meaning almost all men are criminals and almost all women are victims.
BTW, let's hear more about dicing and parsing. I love it when chicks talk dirty.
What they're doing is changing the definition of rape as a tool to get back at men for grievances, real or imagined. The most radical of them go so far as to declare all heterosexual sex as rape, meaning almost all men are criminals and almost all women are victims.
Yet they wonder why feminism is nothing but a joke to most women nowadays.
@Rob said... 1:24 PM
+2
1:27 PM
0
And when did Progressives become so demanding of government come inside their bedrooms?
Pilgrims were more fun than current Progressives.
They need to be mocked for the empty-headed killjoys they are.
Seems to me they are confusing "has not consented" and "has refused consent".
I don't see how "has not consented" in any way can create a "loophole" when coupled with "and the actor knows the victim is unconscious, unaware that the act is occurring, or physically unable to resist".
"Ok, but wait 'til I pass out."
I want to know how anybody can actually defend themselves in these cases without recording their tryst.
Would that law also cover armpit and tit fucks?
Prevalence of sexual assault in what world?
t's a tempting topic, isn't it? You see how much trouble you can get into if you take this bait?
The problem is all the trouble we can get into if people are afraid to take the bait.
Look at the law that passed in California. People were too afraid to take the bait and push back!
Look at Jill Filopovec's comments about the DailyBeast story about the accused Columbia story. In her mind, there is virtually no way to discuss the idea that he might not have done it, or provide evidence of it.
So she sent flirty Facebook messages after her "rape"? So what? Are you saying abused women who stay with their abuser don't exist?
Having sex with unconscious women was pretty much the only way I could ever get laid.
Fortunately for me, they were all grateful for the money and ratified, afterwards.
MayBee said...
Prevalence of sexual assault in what world?
Once you define sexual assault down to people telling you to have a nice day, you find that it's really quite common.
I get it. Unconscious adult females are bait like minor girls are "jail bait."
Query: Does this bait gotcha apply equally to older women like team coaches or bosses?
I dated a girl once who really wanted to be put under (Lot's of alcohol or drugs) and then have sex. She wanted to be totally out.
I thought it was weird. I mean, she is out, what fun is that for either of us?
We never did it and when I asked her why she would want that, since she wouldn't even know it was happening, her answer was, because she would know afterward that it had happened and that turned her on.
Women are crazy.
How dare someone parse a law to try and determine with specificty what that law will mean as applied in the real world! There's a crisis, fellas, and if you're bothering with technicalities then you're part of the problem (technicaliites like, you know, the presumption of innocence, right to know with what you're charged, ability to cross examine evidence and your accuser--those kinds of things can't be allowed in campus admin. trials, and only people who are pro-rape would want them to be).
Maybe this is a stupid question, but what kind of situation is covered by "unaware the act is occurring" that isn't covered by "unconscious"?
In other words, how can a person be conscious but unaware the act is occurring?
Re: prevalance of sexual assualt--where's the chart? Where are teh numbers showning a growing trend in reported sexual assaults and rapes? Hell, I'll take a chart that doesn't even bother to adjust for the expanded definitions of those categories that appear to be used these days, just show me the chart!
Violent crime is down, property crime is down, other offenses are broadly down, but for some reason no one questions the unsupported assertions of EVERYONE IN THE MEDIA and these kinds of interest groups that we're in the middle of an epidemic.
I'm not sure I get it--if you drop "has not consented" that means sex with an unconscious person is rape, even if that person says to you "go ahead and have sex with me when I'm asleep".
Isn't it simpler and less likely to create a loophole to simply say "sex without consent is rape"? Then, define consent to mean actually consenting (either verbally or through non-verbal communication) and rule out cases where a person is incapable of consent (when unconscious, drugged, below a certain age or mental faculty, etc.). The hard cases will be the ones where it is arguable whether someone consented nonverbally (e.g., did his/her actions reasonably communicate consent?) or was capable of consent (e.g., after six beers, was she too drunk to consent?).
In other words, how can a person be conscious but unaware the act is occurring?
The other party is not very gifted?
"Seems to me they are confusing "has not consented" and "has refused consent". I don't see how "has not consented" in any way can create a "loophole" when coupled with "and the actor knows the victim is unconscious, unaware that the act is occurring, or physically unable to resist""
The loophole is: Let's say your wife has made it clear to you that she would very much like it if you had sex with her if you find yourself in the mood to have sex and she's asleep. Later, you break up, and she reports you to the police for having sex with her when she was unconscious and incapable of giving consent at that particular time. What will the prosecutor have to prove under the current statute? Under the proposed amended statute?
"Whatcha doin' back there?"
"Oh, nothing."
Isn't it simpler and less likely to create a loophole to simply say "sex without consent is rape"? Then, define consent to mean actually consenting (either verbally or through non-verbal communication) and rule out cases where a person is incapable of consent (when unconscious, drugged, below a certain age or mental faculty, etc.). The hard cases will be the ones where it is arguable whether someone consented nonverbally (e.g., did his/her actions reasonably communicate consent?) or was capable of consent (e.g., after six beers, was she too drunk to consent?).
The only fair way would be for the accuser to have to prove that he/she did NOT consent.
It shouldn't be the accused's job to prove it was given.
Bob Boyd said...In other words, how can a person be conscious but unaware the act is occurring?
I think that'd cover altered mental states, say if one was drugged but technically conscious; eyes open, able to respond to some questions/stimulus, but not otherwise aware of one's surroundings. I think something like that is possible with benzodiazepines and probably also with illicit drugs (Ketamine maybe?).
@eric 1:53p
That is seriously warped on her part. And the idea of doing it with an unconscious partner is not exciting the least bit for me.
"In other words, how can a person be conscious but unaware the act is occurring?"
I can think of one situation that I've read about actually occurring: A doctor tricks a patient into believing he is performing a legitimate exam and uses his penis.
"men need to demand the right to videotape sexual encounters"
A guy I used to know, a GP in Orange County, got himself into trouble with a girl who came to him as patient. He was screwing her after office hours in his office. This happened a couple of times but the last time she acted strangely and he turned on a tape machine in the office. He was concerned she was on drugs.
Sure enough, she went back to her apartment and told her roommate that he had drugged and raped her a la Bill Cosby. He was arrested.
He played the tapes for the cops and the DA and the charges were dropped. He reopened his office but he told me the patients that came in were bizarre and he closed it again. He said he was busier than ever but they scared him.
He worked in our hospital ER for a while until some patient recognized him and complained. He then moved to another ER in the north part of the county and has since retired.
College boys should have body cameras like cops.
Hasn't rape (except statutory rape) always had a mens rea requirement since forever?
Does the new language actually change anything or simply codify was has always been the law?
"A doctor tricks a patient into believing he is performing a legitimate exam and uses his penis."
I knew of such a case and helped send him to prison. That was when I was doing expert witness stuff for the medical board.
However, I remember reading about a molester who would go into movie theaters and sit next to a girl. He would then unzip his trousers and put her hand on his penis. He was arrested but confessed to a hundred or more other incidents for which the cops had no complaints. He said he was usually successful.
Professor Althouse said: "What will the prosecutor have to prove under the current statute? Under the proposed amended statute?"
I just had a flashback to law school exams.
"I can think of one situation..."
I think in that situation the woman should be given the option to pound the doctor's dick out flat with a hammer.
Some of you are making rape jokes. If you were running for office, you'd be driven out of the race, I hope you realize.
This is a big political pitfall, and decent politicians could ruin themselves over this.
The end-game is all sexual activity is rape (but only for men, of course).
"I just had a flashback to law school exams."
LOL. I meant to do that.
I can't decide it I am too lazy to answer Professor Althouse's exam questions, or too scared to be wrong.
The only fair way would be for the accuser to have to prove that he/she did NOT consent.
It shouldn't be the accused's job to prove it was given
But then he would be assumed innocent.
You, a man or a manually engaged women, are in mid thrust when your partner falls asleep (or faints from pleasure). Is it rape? There's inertia at work here, you cannot stop at least a wee bit bit more thrusting from occurring ...
Can we just say it?
What these people really want is guilt before proven innocent. And they are trying to tweak the laws into reflecting that.
"What these people really want"... is to make it easy to prosecute the cases they believe should be prosecuted and they don't want to sacrifice that interest by having to pay attention to consequences that are beyond their focus.
Yeah yeah yeah... Democrats and their liberal media proxies love to get Republicans taking about sex, rape, pregnancy, contraception, women's rights, gay rights, ect. ect. ect. because they know that no matter how they respond it almost always can be twisted to make Republicans seem like ignorant, backwards, insensitive clods. And sadly many Republican politicians can't resist the bait no matter how many times it blows up in their face.
Heck, even a non-response can be construed to mean insensitivity. It's pretty much a win all around for Dems, I don't think there's a completely safe way for a Republican politician to escape unscathed from that tar pit.
I'd like to see someone push back by charging that Holly Mullen thinks all sex is rape. That's just Alinksy rule #12 combined with rule #5. Force her onto the defensive. (Besides, given her politics, Holly may actually believe that.)
"The only fair way would be for the accuser to have to prove that he/she did NOT consent."
Isn't that the prosecution's burden under criminal law? If the accused raises consent as a defense, the burden is on the prosecution to prove there was no consent.
Brando said...
Isn't that the prosecution's burden under criminal law? If the accused raises consent as a defense, the burden is on the prosecution to prove there was no consent.
2/4/15, 2:51 PM
That right there is a big reason to keep these things out of the "real" courts and restrict them to the media, college courts and public opinion. They want JUSTICE, not justice.
SEX is as good as SNICKERS.
Can you share a SNICKERS BAR with someone who hasn't verbally consented?
Can you offer a kid a SNICKERS BAR without being questioned by cops?
Can you offer someone a SNICKERS BAR in return for cash?
I must be getting too old. It never would occur to me to "have sex" with an unconscious lady. That is silly on so many levels. sexual intercourse is either between two active persons or it may as well be masturbation with a Japanese sex toy, which would be easier to clean up.
It's really funny how angry she'd get if you actually tried to show her charts of the prevalence of sexual assault in our world.
And what if the woman has her way with an unconscious man. You know rough sex like Lorena Bobette liked.
I want to hear The Bobette defense team argue, "Well he did not refuse consent."
if there is no history of sex it one date then the idea that she is unconscious would indicate she didn't provide consent.
However if you are in a relationship with someone it's not so cut and dried. I've woken up with lover at the time doing stuff to me and while it was slightly off putting id i wouldn't say it was rape
Todd said...
Brando said...
Isn't that the prosecution's burden under criminal law? If the accused raises consent as a defense, the burden is on the prosecution to prove there was no consent.
2/4/15, 2:51 PM
That right there is a big reason to keep these things out of the "real" courts and restrict them to the media, college courts and public opinion. They want JUSTICE, not justice.
I wonder what will happen when a bunch of amateurs at some college screw up and taint evidence to the point that a real rapist can't be prosecuted. All allegations of rape should immediately be turned over to local law enforcement for investigation and possible prosecution. A felony criminal investigation isn't the place for amateur investigators and kangaroo court prosecutors.
Is it rape if they consented beforehand, saying "please have sex with me in my sleep", that very night?
(Or kinky people who are "unable to resist" because they're consensually restrained?)
What does turning that into rape do, in terms of stopping, well, any actual sexual assaults?
People who are actually raped have, axiomatically, not consented.
What non-problem are we not-solving while making other non-problems actively worse?
In the name of "not parsing" and "power" (of some unspecified sort), and because of "prevalence" - even if the prevalence is not of anything related to this language or change?
Posturing is bad policy.
Some of you are making rape jokes. If you were running for office, you'd be driven out of the race, I hope you realize.
This is a big political pitfall, and decent politicians could ruin themselves over this.
I stick by my initial comment. Sex without consent is rape and you should go to the police if you are raped.
No need to play games with semantics. Jokes are made because modern feminism has defined rape down significantly.
But then he would be assumed innocent.
Isn't the accused SUPPOSED to be assumed to be innocent?
I wonder what will happen when a bunch of amateurs at some college screw up and taint evidence to the point that a real rapist can't be prosecuted. All allegations of rape should immediately be turned over to local law enforcement for investigation and possible prosecution. A felony criminal investigation isn't the place for amateur investigators and kangaroo court prosecutors.
The bigger irony is that feminists are making stopping rape harder by making teaching rape law more and more difficult.
Honestly, if you're in school to be a lawyer --- fuck your feelings. If you cannot handle unpleasantness, law isn't a route for you as is.
"It's a tempting topic, isn't it?"
No.
But whether or not it is tempting is.
Not to make light of the issue by calling them all prudes, but these neofeminists should support the religious conservatives on this.
Larry J saysI wonder what will happen when a bunch of amateurs at some college screw up and taint evidence to the point that a real rapist can't be prosecuted. All allegations of rape should immediately be turned over to local law enforcement for investigation and possible prosecution. A felony criminal investigation isn't the place for amateur investigators and kangaroo court prosecutors.
Or, when these crzy women collect semen during consensual sex and save it as proof of a rape allegation? Guys, take the condom with you or make sure she really did swallow.
Planned Relationship indemnifies men of moral and legal responsibility if they declare a firmly held belief in their right to enjoy [wealth], pleasure, and [leisure]. Women enjoy a similar but superior right in liberal societies.
If I fall for this clickbait while I am drunk, asleep, or otherwise I some state of diminished capacity.....
Some of you are making rape jokes. If you were running for office, you'd be driven out of the race, I hope you realize.
Only if they were jokes about women getting raped. It is still funny when men get raped.
Which is ironic, considering that (thanks to our ever-growing prison population) male-on-male rape is that only form of rape that has gotten more common in the last 20 years.
...as evidenced by leaving off letters like the "I" in in....
With all these new definitions of rape constantly coming out, I'm starting to lose count of the number of times I've been sexually assaulted. I must have been well into double digits before I got out of college.
With all these new definitions of rape constantly coming out, I'm starting to lose count of the number of times I've been sexually assaulted. I must have been well into double digits before I got out of college.
APPARENTLY, unless its missionary with the lights off --- it's probably rape.
Cotton Mather would tell Progressives to lighten the fuck up.
I'm thinking about a study recently that said men in America are quite romantic, although men in Britain are written as romantic characters while men in America are written as less emotional characters.
And I think about growing up reading Cosmo and Vogue, and being convinced that men have a hard time actually loving, they just want to have sex. That was the predominant message of the time. It isn't a healthy way to see men. I was very tentative when it came to dating.
I wonder what all this "men are rapey and there is a lot of rape" does to mess with young girls' minds and their views about men. It seems like it can't be healthy.
What if your girlfriend is a narcoleptic? Is that when a tool of love becomes a tool of power?
Any Republican officeholder or candidate who discusses rape in public deserves to lose the next election.
I don't understand why the GOP can't simply punt on issues like this.
Some issues are NOT worth going to battle over. Sometimes you have to defuse a small issue in order to avoid it escalating into a big issue.
"I'd like to see someone push back..."
No, that's rape too.
Some men are rapists. Some women lie about being raped. All humans have prejudices that presuppose them to believe one person or another......Does that legal principle about letting ten guilty men go free rather than convict a single innocent man apply in the case of rapists? Why not?...... Most men feel that being awakened by an act of non-consensual (on their part) sex by their partner is one of life's greatest joys, and it is a moment that they treasure forever. (That's probably not applicable to federal inmates,).......If there was just one or two women involved in the Cosby scandal, I would probably believe him. With the great number that have come forward, I believe that he is a serial rapist.......But here's a word in his favor. Demonstrably that act of rape did not cause those women much trauma. They went on to lead successful, reasonably pleasant lives. If you can be drugged and raped by a relative stranger and survive intact, how much damage does it cause a woman to have sex with her husband of ten years if she's groggy after having a few drinks.
Chuck,
I think you are doing something wrong. More Viagra and less Ambien might fix the problem.
-:)
I'm with whatever Whoopi Goldberg said about any other case but this one.
The problem with categorical statements is that they are falsified by any single counterexample. So the correct answer is, "well, Holly, I've told my [wife/husband/partner/whatever] that if [s]he finds me asleep or passed-out and [s]he's just got to have it, go ahead. Do you really want to say that if [s]he takes me up on that offer, and maybe that's a foolish offer but I made it, that that's rape? Because that is what you're saying; is that what you want to be saying?"
Don't squirm. Don't equivocate. These people are out to make you look uncomfortable, they're out for blood. Turn it around. Make THEM uncomfortable. Make THEM bleed a little. Stop being such sissies, Republicans!
Imus, long ago, disputing a woman caller's claim of virginity.
"Did you ever fall asleep on a bus?"
Hey Ann, don't you ever get tired of advocating the neutering of politicians?
Hey Ann, don't you ever get tired of advocating the neutering of politicians?
Neutering your politicians is the responsible thing to do. Otherwise you get overpopulation, and shelters full of unwanted members of Congress.
Isn't this one of those things where the majority of normal people, who were probably woken up by sex at some point in their lives and likely enjoyed it, hear this and roll their eyes?
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
Isn't this one of those things where the majority of normal people, who were probably woken up by sex at some point in their lives and likely enjoyed it, hear this and roll their eyes?
Yep, until the divorce atty lumps it in with all the other "spousal abuse"
Gosh! after reading this post I've come to the conclusion that it is absolutely possible to RAPE YOURSElF!!
AIYEEE!!
The Amish have a thing that translates as 'butter drunk."
The woman has not had alcohol, of course: she has churned and sampled butter throughout a hot day -- churned and sampled, churned and sampled.
The warm, comfortable feeling of exhaustion plus the consistent consumption of rich fats leads to a kind of stupor that some Amish men have taken advantage of, sexually.
Do we now factor in 'butter drunk' into law, or just say it is a cultural thing, like cliterectomies?
I am Laslo.
It’s a tool of power.
Well, hasn't it always been? The pussy, that is.
Nothin' says lovin' like sex with a limp body. It sounds like a necrophilic fantasy.
That said, about Planned Relationship to indemnify men and women of legal and moral culpability. It could be a twist on pro-choice, where the same advocates, activists, props, and narratives could be used to sell it to a repulsed audience.
Follow the secular profits of wealth, PLEASURE, and leisure.
It can be justified and rationalized under the same terms as elective abortion, as a sincerely held faith, fairy tale, or something.
Maybe it's a tree falling in the forest thing.
Or it could be a Bishop Berkeley thing.
Does the chewing gum lose its flavor on the bedpost overnight.
Not if God keeps his tongue on it.
The trick is to find a philosophical principle.
You could dream you're having sex with your wife. Is that rape? Rousseau thought so.
And who has not been in a girlfriend's dream, and told ahout having done something in it that she's then mad at you about all day.
Dreams count too, recriminationwise.
rhhardin:
Pro-choice. In a sleep or unconscious state, a human life does not have a voice to protest, arms to effect self-defense. It is in fact uniquely vulnerable. Not unlike a human life from conception to birth, it is reduced to a commodity, which we may be liquidated or serve as a prop for sexual relations.
Debasing human life has moral and legal consequences. Still, with a religion or moral philosophy based on a pro-choice or selective principle, sexual relations with a limp body could be simultaneously classified as rape-rape, rape, or a consumer right.
I wonder how abortionists will argue this case.
If you are going to use the power of the State to ruin people's lives, you have to dice and parse, full stop.
You know, there was a case involving this that came before the Supreme Court of Canada back in 2011. That body ruled, 6-3 that it was rape the moment the partner becomes unconscious, even though there was prior consent by the partner to both the activity that caused the unconsciousness during sex and to having sex while unconscious.
I wish someone could explain why rape is "tool of power," it seems more like a tool of the powerless.
wait, you dice parsley?
never mind.
It wouldn't be an issue if in the 70s it was decided that you can't rape your wife. Rather, the crime is assault.
Then the question would be whether it's assault to have sex with a sleeping wife.
Common sense returns when you get the right question.
Am sorry I missed reading this yesterday. But... Want to record my first sighting of the famous 'microaggression' in the wild. A moderately lengthy Facebook exchange about the evils of Boehner/Netanyahu vs Mr Obama's special diplomacy; one of the commenters (her page, her original post, we are real and not just Fb friends) made a mildly, plainly obviously, sarcastic remark to one of the other commenters (who is a feminist academic, ahem, I don't know her from Adam but she is a real acquaintance if not friend of the original poster), who rejoined, 'Your response is unreasonably aggressive. I am going to wait a bit to respond because right now I am feeling defensive and quite angry.' I don't know how such people manage in the real world.
It's amazing how intolerant "liberals" are of the Other. Who are they to tell a woman she may not pre-consent to sex while she's asleep or drunk? They need to take their Puritan / Victorian ideals and get stuffed.
Ann Althouse said...
"What these people really want"... is to make it easy to prosecute the cases they believe should be prosecuted and they don't want to sacrifice that interest by having to pay attention to consequences that are beyond their focus.
In other words, they want to dump the concept of being a nation of laws, and switch to begin a nation where the Star Chamber rules, and THEY are part of the Star Chamber.
Some women actually do pass out, without drugs or alcohol, when highly aroused. I dated a girl like this in the 9th grade. Her body was responsive but her brain was not there. She would come to and want to know what I had done to her. We were both virgins as far as I knew, and I hadn't done anything beyond kissing and dry humping. It's now my belief that she probably had an orgasm. We broke up. Word got around that the next guy she dated took full advantage of her condition.
Later, I read that this was not uncommon, and some men also black out and have memory loss during an intense sexual experience.
I think changing the definition of rape is going to cause a lot of confusion and injustice.
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