This hard.
Note that only 1% of teachers are rated unsatisfactory, this teacher was rated unsatisfactory 6 years in a row, and the city went through a 16-day hearing trying to terminate her $84,500-a-year employment.
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Ah, the joys of the twin blessings of unions combined with Marxist-oriented NYC school governance.
The problem is, we don't pay these teachers enough. Right? Jeez, $85,000 a year for 9 months "work," not teaching and she still calls in sick 30 days? Now she wants to sue?
Remember it is a grueling 9 months, with days off only for major and minor holidays and a spring and winter break during that horrific stretch!
"Remember it is a grueling 9 months, with days off only for major and minor holidays and a spring and winter break during that horrific stretch!"
You left out being done with work before 4 PM every day.
Plus they probably won't be able to retire comfortably until their late fifties or even their early sixties.
I don't mind teachers being paid well. I just can't stand the whining about unfair treatment. Really, I can't stand it.
There are a couple of problems with bad teachers, one is that they can't be fired, the other is that their pension is so attractive that they won't leave the job long after their passion for it is gone.
Up close and personal, I witnessed the teachers union going all out for a teacher who was so bad that after a year of being in her classroom some students needed therapy.
Also up close and personal, I saw the union not lift a finger to save very good teachers who were being forced out by a thoroughly inadequate principal.
We will not fix education in this country until the teachers unions are reformed or broken. I don't care which, but if teachers want to keep their unions they'd better think about reform.
..but if you let your kid walk home from her class, child services comes for you.
84,000?! And they say teachers don't make enough?
That's more than many people in IT make.
Calling Scott Walker.
tim in Vermont wrote:
Remember it is a grueling 9 months
And they get 3 months to recuperate. I've heard of good vacation packages but no one I know gets 3 mnonths off. Crazy!
God that is depressing. Is it like that everywhere now? I'm assuming its like that here in the peoples republic of hawaii.
Has Gov. Walker managed to change the culture in Wisconsin?
working is a human right!
It boggles the mind how bad you have to be to fail 6 years a row as a teacher of the FIRST GRADE. The kids are 6 year olds. Teach them shapes, and letters, and numbers, a bit of spelling and grammar, it's not rocket science.
Amid the “mayhem,” Goodman wrote, Legra was “buried in a corner at a computer table” where she could not monitor all the kids.
Perhaps she was commenting on Althouse, in which case all is forgiven.
The hearing officers — picked jointly by the DOE and the teachers union — frequently balk at termination, instead ordering a fine or suspension and requiring the teacher to take courses.
Courses taught by other teachers.
It's obvious why the Union wants her there -- she's providing money via union dues. Unions don't care a thing about the underserved kids in her class.
To the contrary, they should give her a bonus for not sleeping with any of her students.
Legal (sic) has since filed a federal lawsuit against the DOE, charging discrimination based on her race, gender, national origin and medical disability.
Blog theme? Protected class.
A threefer? fourfer? Maybe she's gay too? Or has a penis?
It's obvious why the Union wants her there -- she's providing money via union dues. Unions don't care a thing about the underserved kids in her class.
How hard is it to fire a tenured UW professor of 25 years like Althouse? Are there applicants for your job every year? How hard is it to fire you?
Scott Walker for bodhisattva.
captcha: fluen
garage: "How hard is it to fire a tenured UW professor of 25 years like Althouse? Are there applicants for your job every year? How hard is it to fire you?"
Ooooooooh.
Somebody touched a nerve.
It's not just teachers.
In 1978, in a pharma company where I worked at the time, one of the operators threw a glass beaker into a mixing blender. It ruined about $20,000 worth of product.
There was no question about him doing it on purpose. 2-3 people were with him as he said something like "Fuck this company" and threw the beaker.
He sued the company for unjust termination since he had no previous warning letters or disciplinary action. In 1985, when I left, the HR manager was still fighting the case.
It is one reason I have no employees. Just because I pay someone does not mean I get to be the boss of them.
John Henry
"You are the administrator of a New York City public school. Your mission is to fire a teacher who is so inept that virtually no other teacher, parent, or student would object."
http://cloudfront-assets.reason.com/assets/db/12639308918768.pdf
"[The teacher] has since filed a federal lawsuit against the DOE, charging discrimination based on her race, gender, national origin and medical disability."
captcha: eolin
How hard is it to fire a tenured UW professor of 25 years like Althouse? Are there applicants for your job every year? How hard is it to fire you?
Two wrongs don't make a right, but if you want to go after university (opposite of diversity) tenure, I am with you.
Madison Man said:
Unions don't care a thing about the underserved kids in her class.
And they (the union as an entity) damned well should not.
The teachers pay the union to represent them, not the kids.
The teacher, who pays dues to the union specifically for just this kind of representation, is who the union has to care about. Anything else would be malfeasance on the union's part.
Think of it like a lawyer. Lawyers get paid to be advocates for the people who are paying them. How would you feel if your lawyer started arguing the police's side of the issue in court?
"The union will start representing the students when the students start paying dues." Albert Shanker, president of the American Federation of Teachers.
There is some dispute about whether he actually said it. He always acted as if he had said it and as if he meant it. As he should have.
John Henry
@John Henry
You are correct, of course, about what unions (really lobbies) are there for. But, what is galling to most of us is that the teachers lobbies are always couching their demands in what is good for the "children," not themselves. It is their lying that is a problem for most of us.
"she's providing money via union dues. Unions don't care a thing about the underserved kids in her class."
Bingo !
Did she rape any of her students? If not, kudos.
"He sued the company for unjust termination since he had no previous warning letters or disciplinary action. In 1985, when I left, the HR manager was still fighting the case."
A friend of mine was the chief of surgery at a UC medical school. He fired a resident for incompetence. He was advised by the UC risk management people and their lawyers to settle. That would have involved taking her back. He refused and, in spite of being told he could never win the case, they eventually did win.
The next time you complain about bad doctors, think about how hard it is to fire one, especially if a member of a privileged class.
It sounds like the issue had to do mostly with her absenteeism and lateness as well as not being able to control the students. To be fair, I don't know how I'd try to control a room full of screaming six year olds. But I'd think she'd have been trained how to do that.
I don't blame teachers unions for what they do--it's like getting mad at a scorpion for stinging you. Unions are there to protect their members, not serve the public. The fault is with the government that enshrines the unions and gives them so much power.
My brother, a high school principle, and I used to get into animated discussions over under-performing teachers.
I asked him how many he had fired over the years. It was easy to count - zero.
How many were union members? Why all of them, of course.
It's for the children.
John Henry said...
The teachers pay the union to represent them, not the kids.
Absolutely. Which is why the union should have no say in choosing the hearing officers.
Can you imagine trying to fire 183 of them at the same time?
I am Laslo.
How hard is it to fire you?
As I work on soft money, entirely, firing me simply requires having grants not funded.
>> How hard is it to fire you?
"Dan, you're fired."
That hard.
Bitchtits is back!
Scott Walker is a winner and the packers and Wisconsin public sector unions are losers.
Life is good.
You left out being done with work before 4 PM every day
If you don't count the countless hours at home grading papers and planning.
"If you don't count the countless hours at home grading papers and planning."
That's for the competent teachers. Somehow I don't think this one spent five minutes doing any lesson planning or grading papers for her first graders.
I assume the comment "If you don't count the countless hours at home grading papers and planning" was sarcasm - the math is pretty easy, and no essay questions in 1st grade. Some outside work, NOT hours and hours.
Gahrie: "If you don't count the countless hours at home grading papers and planning"
Something tells me that if we put our noses to the grindstone we could probably actually count up the number of those hours.
Unknown said...
I assume the comment "If you don't count the countless hours at home grading papers and planning" was sarcasm - the math is pretty easy, and no essay questions in 1st grade. Some outside work, NOT hours and hours.
Ms. Tank taught pre-school. There were no tests or math or papers. You would be amazed at how much time she spent preparing both educational and fun activities.
She said she was being discriminated against for her gender (amongst other things). Um, aren't, like, 99% of teachers female?
"If you don't count the countless hours at home grading papers and planning."
For first grade ? Most teachers I have known did all their lesson plans in their first year or two of teaching. After that it's rinse and repeat.
@Michael K
With that approach it would not be surprising to find the teacher to be just going through the motions. A good teacher is constantly working to improve their lessons and do what they do better.
Madison Man said:
Unions don't care a thing about the underserved kids in her class.
And they (the union as an entity) damned well should not.
The teachers pay the union to represent them, not the kids.
The teacher, who pays dues to the union specifically for just this kind of representation, is who the union has to care about. Anything else would be malfeasance on the union's part. "
Substitute "stockholders" for "teachers" and "corporation" for "union" and "invest" for "pay" this makes perfect sense.
"84,000?! And they say teachers don't make enough?"
In NYC, $84,000.00 may not go very far, depending on one's monthly rent,utilities, and groceries, as well as the number of dependents one must support.
Gahrie said:
If you don't count the countless hours at home grading papers and planning.
Except that when you study that, it turns out to be largely a myth.
Most teachers spend less than 5 hours a week on outside work like grading etc.
The school year in the US is 180 days. Figure that teachers work perhaps 10 extra days making it 190.
Assume that between school and home they work 8 hours, that is 1,520 hours per year.
A 40 hr week, times 48 weeks (4 weeks vaca and holidays) works 1920 hours. 400 more for those in Rio Linda.
So, $84m/yr for a teacher would be the equivalent of $106m in the private sector. (1920/1520 X $84m)
That doesn't count benefits which are probably superior for the govt teacher.
Not bad pay for a job that only requires a teachers college education.
John Henry
Lest anyone miscontrue my earlier post as supporting teachers (or other govt) unions, I did not mean it to.
I only meant to point out that in defending the teacher, the union was merely doing what it is legally, contractually and morally bound to do.
John Henry
Something tells me that if we put our noses to the grindstone we could probably actually count up the number of those hours.
Not if you went to a public HS taught by union teachers.
Which reminds me of a joke:
President Obama and Romney were chilling and Romney suggested a contest. He would write down a large number and Obama would have to write a larger one. Loser paid the drinks.
Romney wrote 2,345,654,098,444
Obama studied it for a minute then pulled out his wallet "You win"
John Henry
@John Henry, now if only the teacher union provided an equivalent level of support to the good teachers.
garage mahal said...
It's obvious why the Union wants her there -- she's providing money via union dues. Unions don't care a thing about the underserved kids in her class.
How hard is it to fire a tenured UW professor of 25 years like Althouse?
Ouch, that hurts. Ann - you better have a pithy response!
garage mahal said...
"How hard is it to fire a tenured UW professor of 25 years like Althouse?"
First, you would have to want to fire a tenured UW professor of 25 years like Althouse
You want to keep the Ann Legras and fire the Ann Althouses? Keep the unsatisfactory teachers and fire the excellent teachers? Garage, you need to go back to school and take remedial common sense.
As an engineer I have no tenure. I can be fired "at will" with no recourse. I can't stand unions and tenure.
Meade - obviously garage thinks that Ann is a "bad" professor because she tilts slightly conservative on her blog and that MUST mean that he constitutional law class is INFECTED with right-wing ideology!
First, you would have to want to fire a tenured UW professor of 25 years like Althouse
You want to keep the Ann Legras and fire the Ann Althouses?
I asked how easy it would be to fire Ann Althouse, since that was the topic of this post, and I was assuming firing a teacher should be easier? Not a fair question?
"A good teacher is constantly working to improve their lessons and do what they do better."
I was married to one. She reused her lesson plans for first and second grade for years. If a teacher adopts phonics or something like that, yes.
"Obama studied it for a minute then pulled out his wallet "You win""
I thought he said "I haven't a clue."
That's when the bank teller said, "How would you like your money Mr President, Tens and Twenties ?"
garage: "I asked how easy it would be to fire Ann Althouse, since that was the topic of this post...."
Althouse is a public school teacher in NY?
I think not.
I would have thought it would be easier for you to follow these threads now that you are an IT professional based out of Minnesota.
tim in vermont said:
"Remember, it is a grueling 9 months ...
...But enough about Vermont winters.
(I kid)
“When school children start paying union dues, that 's when I'll start representing the interests of school children.”
Albert Shanker, President, United Federation of Teachers
Robert Cook said:
"In NYC, $84,000.00 may not go very far, depending on one's monthly rent,utilities, and groceries, as well as the number of dependents one must support.
Many, many years ago, I was looking at purchasing parity between various cities, and it would take a $120k salary in New York City to match a $50k salary in Cincinnati. At that ratio, her salary would be equivalent to a $35k salary in the midwest. Not a middle manager's salary, but not poverty either.
There are always stories like this. They couldn't fire a guy years and years ago, so he goes, sits in a room and maintains his RE portfolio. He's worth $10 MILLION and since they couldn't fire him, gets his pension.
First order of business for the next republican president and congress should the repeal of the Wagner Act. Unions can strike and employers can freely fire.
All those people who make fun of teaching, or talk about leaving by 4pm (I spend 30 hours a week at home preparing for my classes & grading, so it's a 65-hour week for me), how about you try it? Come and teach for 5 years. Give up your office, your AC, your desk, your computer, and work in a place where the windows/doors/locks sometimes work, where you're held responsible for the behavior of teenagers, where you are repeatedly cursed out for asking students to leave the hallway, and where people's futures actually hang in the balance. Write a recommendation for a student who is the first in their family to go to college. You think teachers have it easy? Come try it. And if you don't like the whining about unfair treatment, come teach for 5-10 years, and then write a blog about how members of the press/public/government treat you with respect and as a professional.
I'm not bitter, I have good administration & work at a good school, and I love my job & my kids. My ratings are good and my students do well on exams and in life. But I work my ass off every day, and comments like this are incredibly disrespectful.
dogmmdog said...
All those people who make fun of teaching, or talk about leaving by 4pm (I spend 30 hours a week at home preparing for my classes & grading, so it's a 65-hour week for me)
6 hours a day working outside of school? I call bullshit. Or, if you really are spending 30 hours a week, you are doing it all wrong.
If you had said 6 hours a week, I might have believed that. Though I would still be dubious.
I say that as someone who has been married to a HS teacher for 40 years, has been designing and teaching university undergrad and grad courses since 1982 (mainly engineering and business)and designing and teaching vocational training (one of my day jobs) for even longer.
I also have an MS in Education, for whatever that is worth. (Not very much, IMHO. Other than a credential to impress clients)
John Henry
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