Althouse: "Like many graduate degrees, a Master of Fine Arts carries rising costs and brings limited job prospects. So why are more Americans pursuing one?"

२० डिसेंबर, २०१४

"Like many graduate degrees, a Master of Fine Arts carries rising costs and brings limited job prospects. So why are more Americans pursuing one?"

Intro to an Atlantic article quoted by its best-rated comment, which says: "The article doesn't answer its own question. The writer didn't ask even one MFA student, 'So... why are you getting an MFA if you're going to spend your life behind a Starbucks counter?'"

Third best-rated comment: "Next in The Atlantic: Forming a garage band. An increasingly popular, increasingly bad financial decision. Next: Playing minor league sports. An increasingly popular.... Come on. People have dreams, and mostly they fall through. Why pick obsessively on the academic ones."

७० टिप्पण्या:

Abdul Abulbul Amir म्हणाले...: Because the cost of the garage band or playing minor league sports are peanuts compared to an MFA degree.

The solution is to make the universities holders of their students student loans.; २०/१२/१४, ८:४१ AM
Saint Croix म्हणाले...: My MFA degree cost $130,000 (and counting).

We are taught to follow our heart, and it gets us in trouble. That is my life story, actually.; २०/१२/१४, ८:४३ AM
Curious George म्हणाले...: Why? Because they can't get a job. And they're is no end to student loans $$$ to party for a few more years. Of course that party is going to have one big hangover.; २०/१२/१४, ८:४५ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: The basic purpose of 22 year olds in attending post graduate college today is to continue having as much fun as possible at their parents/ Student Loan's expense before the dark days of a lifetime of minimum wage jobs start. And nobody flunks out of Art School, do they.

These kids are going to listen to Elizabeth Warren's message too.; २०/१२/१४, ८:४६ AM
Jane the Actuary म्हणाले...: These things would only be analogous if minor leaguers or garage band-players were known for paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to experts who told them how to do it right.

And The Atlantic does offer an explanation: it brings prestige, in the person's own world, and the costs are of less relevance because these students are more likely to Come From Money.; २०/१२/१४, ८:४९ AM
RecChief म्हणाले...: People have dreams, and mostly they fall through. Why pick obsessively on the academic ones."

Because, mostly, people's dreams don't cost them 30k to 60k per year in payments to someone else in pursuit of those dreams, not to mention the opportunity costs of pursuing the strategy of "major in what you love to do" without a thought to how to support themselves.

Our High School no longer has an Auto shop class, nor a Trades and Industries class, or even VICA. When I asked the Superintendent why not, his reply was that a college degree was the key to a "good salary". Yet, I know quite a few non union plumbers, electricians, welders, mechanics, and auto body repairers who earn in the high five figures and a good percentage in six figures.

This is what happens when a society listens to and believes a self appointed elite.; २०/१२/१४, ८:५६ AM
rehajm म्हणाले...: I'm struck at the lack of value being placed on the MFA. Curator, educator, architecture, media, web design, the commercial gallery. All valid and thriving places for MFA holders to land. I wonder if the collective outcome has more to do with the individuals who pursue the degree rather than the degree itself?; २०/१२/१४, ८:५८ AM
Bob Boyd म्हणाले...: I wonder how many women account for the increase. And how many of those don't worry too much about about their earning potential because they visualize themselves marrying a good earner.; २०/१२/१४, ८:५९ AM
mccullough म्हणाले...: It's more fun than law school and the job prospects are about the same; २०/१२/१४, ९:०२ AM
Wilbur म्हणाले...: Elizabeth Warren's campaign message:
"If only Hitler had gotten a student loan, the world would be a better place."

And he could've paid it back with worthless Reichmarks.

I am not a robot.; २०/१२/१४, ९:०४ AM
Michael म्हणाले...: I am a huge believer in the liberal arts. As a businessman I have noted over the decades that the most effective people I have hired have been English, History or Philosophy majors. Great communicators. I have hired an MFA but her degree was in writing. Also a good choice.

I have had some MBAs but have often watched them flounder in conversations with clients who wanted to talk about opera or Thomas Pynchon.

Academics and magazine writers would be amazed at the number of well educated men and women there are in the business world.; २०/१२/१४, ९:१६ AM
RecChief म्हणाले...: rehajm said...
I'm struck at the lack of value being placed on the MFA. Curator, educator, architecture, media, web design, the commercial gallery.

Perhaps you should read Lazlo Block's comments on Google's hiring practices regarding advanced degrees. But I'm not saying that there isn't some value in an MFA, just that, like everything, the Law of Supply and Demand rules here too.

One last thing, Architecture students belong to the College of Engineering at the land grant school that is close to here, is that the same everywhere? Maybe that is why we get god awful steel and glass boxes nowadays and not Chrysler Buildings.; २०/१२/१४, ९:१९ AM
Michael K म्हणाले...: One option not mentioned is Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategic Communications and Speechwriting.

That is the title of Ben Rhodes, who is Obama's chief foreign policy advisor (and Teleprompter programmer) who has an MFA in fiction writing.

"attending New York University and graduating in 2002 with an MFA in creative writing."

Ok, "Creative Writing." Still about as useful to Obama. It's worked out well, too.

"Rhodes, who has been described as a realist by The Washington Post, wrote Obama's 2009 Cairo speech "A New Beginning". Rhodes was the adviser who counseled Obama to withdraw support from Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak, becoming a key adviser during the 2011 Arab Spring."

Of course some qualifications aren't as easy to find.

"Rhodes is married to Ann Norris, chief foreign policy adviser to Senator Barbara Boxer. His brother, David, is chairman of CBS News "; २०/१२/१४, ९:१९ AM
RecChief म्हणाले...: Michael said...
I am a huge believer in the liberal arts. As a businessman I have noted over the decades that the most effective people I have hired have been English, History or Philosophy majors. Great communicators. I have hired an MFA but her degree was in writing. Also a good choice.

Except look at the age and experience level of most people in HR departments. And look at how those HR departments and recruiters "grade" resumes. They use software that hunts for keywords, not a look at how effectively a person can communicate.; २०/१२/१४, ९:२८ AM
Owen म्हणाले...: Jane the Actuary said:

"...And The Atlantic does offer an explanation: it brings prestige, in the person's own world, and the costs are of less relevance because these students are more likely to Come From Money.

12/20/14, 8:49 AM"

And if they Come From Money, they can watch Money Go From Them. There's an old expression, "From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations." I am OK with fools dissipating their own wealth. I am not OK with others being lured into nondischargeable six-figure debt by hucksters who pocket the tuition and socialize the cost. As Abdul Abulbul Amir said @ 8:41, as Instapundit says all the time, the schools should share the risk.; २०/१२/१४, ९:३३ AM
David म्हणाले...: My son got a MFA from University of Wisconsin. Worked his ass off and still does. He's smart enough to succeed in any field and willing to work. He's managed to stay employed and self supporting since he graduated several years ago. He would like to teach and has had several visiting appointments for people on sabbatical, but tenure track jobs are very tough to come by.

He just finished a stint as Artist in Residence at Kohler Company in Wisconsin. Basically a gig in the foundry making stuff. He has definitely muscled up as a result of that. Next to teach at a college in Pennsylvania for a semester, and he has to fill in the blank after that.

He's happy, but tired of the moving around. I think he's going to stop that soon. I can't see him ever leaving art, so it will be a challenge, but making a living on a MFA has taught him to surmount challenges. That's a worthwhile education in itself.; २०/१२/१४, ९:३४ AM
Fritz म्हणाले...: The government doesn't support student loans for garage bands.; २०/१२/१४, ९:३८ AM
SGT Ted म्हणाले...: "Next in The Atlantic: Forming a garage band. An increasingly popular, increasingly bad financial decision. Next: Playing minor league sports. An increasingly popular.... Come on. People have dreams, and mostly they fall through. Why pick obsessively on the academic ones."

Your average garage band member expends maybe $3000 to get set up.

Minor league ball players are actually making money for work, as they are paid employees of a Major League Franchise. I played local amateur ball and maybe spent $500.00 dollar on gear, tops.

It is not "obsessive" to pick on those pushing MFA degrees that cost tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt for the student, which further enriches well off institutions and leave the degree holder in deep debt with few paying prospects. Which means they are getting ripped off for following their dreams.

I suspect the complaint about picking on academic ones is coming from an academic, most likely a fine arts master instructor.; २०/१२/१४, ९:४१ AM
SGT Ted म्हणाले...: Our High School no longer has an Auto shop class, nor a Trades and Industries class, or even VICA. When I asked the Superintendent why not, his reply was that a college degree was the key to a "good salary".

Oh, so the kids who aren't good at classroom book work can just go fuck themselves and work at McDonalds or some other shitty service sector retail job, instead of learning a useful trade?

The Superintendent is a very shallow person.; २०/१२/१४, ९:४७ AM
Moose म्हणाले...: I bailed out of an MFA program in the 80's due to the ridiculously limited prospects it presented. I still loved art - but didn't see anyway I could be either happy nor gainfully employed as an MFA in painting.; २०/१२/१४, ९:४७ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: Today's scam colleges always rig the curriculum and student schedules so four year degrees to take 5 years now, and then the Masters Degree is on top of that.

And student loans for excessive tuitions are not dischargable in Bankruptcy. Gotcha!!; २०/१२/१४, ९:४८ AM
Billy Oblivion म्हणाले...: I have a BFA from a well respected art school.

I make close to 6 figures (and have topped it once or twice) working as a Unix Admin.

The MFA has *always* been a scam, and most BFA programs are a waste of money.

The vast majority of art buyers don't give a flying f*k what your pedigree is, it is only the gallery owners and the people who fawn over them who give a carp.

If you want to get *good* at art, there are lots of places you can take photography, painting and drawing classes (and probably some sculpture classes). Spend your money on models and visiting museums, on books and art supplies. Be a REAL rebel and F*k the system.

Go to college, minor in fine art so you can take whatever studio classes you want, but major in something useful like business (so you can open your own gallery, or just understand how to run your art production like a business) or marketing (so you know better how to market your art).; २०/१२/१४, १०:११ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: MFA= mother fucking artist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDhf9qwiA34; २०/१२/१४, १०:१२ AM
JSD म्हणाले...: In the 70’s, Peat Marwick used to find smart people with college degrees and teach them accounting and auditing. It was fairly common for partners to have degrees from the usual liberal arts colleges. Now, professional licensing requirements mandate 150 hours with specialized study. The profession was successful at limiting number of CPA’s but the current recruits possess narrow knowledge and weak communication skills. The schools also suck at teaching accounting and auditing. It’s too bad because I often meet people who could be very good at it, but without credentials, its not possible.; २०/१२/१४, १०:१५ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: "Job prospects"? Why, Atlantic is getting filthy capitalistic!

Dear Leader must decree every MFA be given a position in the Feds to churn out posters to sing the praises of our Dear Leader.; २०/१२/१४, १०:२४ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: When I went to art school, the whole point was to demonstrate that you were above economic calculations and into loftier things.

Money might arrive but poverty was the usual fate. You're supposed to not care.; २०/१२/१४, १०:२९ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: David,

Your son is also likely bringing a good work ethic and dedication to his art so far.

The truth of actual artists is that they live lives dedicated to their art, and that comes with serious trade-offs. Most never make it anywhere near making a living, even those with a lot of talent.

Twas ever thus.

Insulating and subsidizing many artists from reality (and especially the spokesmen, gatekeepers, and money distributors) creates all sorts of bad incentives.

Once institutionalized, this becomes attractive to ideologues, MFA-ers, 2nd and 3rd-raters etc.

It can be like teaching, frankly, which attracts and perpetuates a lot of mediocrity, becoming weighted down with bureaucracy and byzantine rules.

This, in turn, can create generations of people insulated from reality with public money and not necessarily producing great or even decent art.

Take a look at too many public art installations to count.

**Younger Marxist Bill Ayers was offered a reprieve from his radical past in a humanities department, and then unsurprisingly used his talents and position to likely help a certain President get elected.

That is of great consequence to the rest of us, and of course, may not have helped produce any good art either.; २०/१२/१४, १०:४५ AM
Original Mike म्हणाले...: "Money might arrive but poverty was the usual fate. You're supposed to not care."

That's fine if it's your money. If it's taxpayer money, not so much.; २०/१२/१४, १०:४६ AM
David म्हणाले...: @chrisnavin

I don't think my son would disagree with you.; २०/१२/१४, ११:०६ AM
harrogate म्हणाले...: Michael @ 9:16.

Exactly. Very well said.; २०/१२/१४, ११:०६ AM
Bobber Fleck म्हणाले...: Some from my era reject the premise that all education is vocational. Can't someone go to school to get an education?

It used to be important to be "educated". Now it seems important to be "trained".; २०/१२/१४, ११:०७ AM
Insufficiently Sensitive म्हणाले...: The writer didn't ask even one MFA student, 'So... why are you getting an MFA if you're going to spend your life behind a Starbucks counter?'"

It's a class status symbol, don't you know. Regardless of any ability to create fine arts, nor to earn sufficient wealth to adorn your palazzo with them, the degree itself signals to certain sorts that you're in the know. You're one of them. You speak the language, think the right thoughts, and will march in the procession.; २०/१२/१४, ११:१४ AM
Kentucky Packrat म्हणाले...: Most of my family thinks I'm crazy (hardly the first time), but I told my daughter to quit thinking about being a nurse practitioner (psychiatric specialty) and go get a BFA and MFA in sculpture.

First and foremost, I did it for the betterment of mankind. Not the art side; I was just afraid for her patients. She would have been Nurse Ratched after a few years, or would have ended up quitting entirely and not been a nurse at all. (Also, I wouldn't want anyone to become a doctor or nurse with the uncertainty over the Affordable Care Act)

As for the MFA, I've told her to focus on learning, and to focus on coming out of school with no debt. The Fine Arts schools in Kentucky are very focused on practical skills for their metalworking artists (welding, casting, etc.), so she won't have any trouble picking up a job after school.

It is important to be a well-learned, well-rounded individual, and college is an excellent way to start that out. However, you cannot come out of college drowning in debt either. I've told both of mine that they have to do whatever they can to come out of college in debt, especially my daughter.; २०/१२/१४, ११:१६ AM
Big Mike म्हणाले...: Because STEM is too hard. Also, women might have to put up with male co-workers who aren't "bad boys" and who, worse yet, aren't socially adept.; २०/१२/१४, ११:३१ AM
William म्हणाले...: I bet a lot of hot girls pursue an MFA degree. They're probably pretty adventurous and imaginative when it comes to sex......Philosophy majors not so much. The pre Socratic and German Idealist school of philosophy seem to be anathema to hot chicks. There are bigger wastes of time than an MFA degree.; २०/१२/१४, ११:४० AM
richard mcenroe म्हणाले...: Nobody gives you buckets of your parents' & or the taxpayers' (our) money to start a crap garage band.

The government spends billions on churning out useless art majors. A minor distinction to the Atlantic I'm sure, but nevertheless...; २०/१२/१४, ११:४० AM
harrogate म्हणाले...: Imagine how boring it would all be --and how it would kill the market for those fields--if everyone pursued STEM. Or if everyone pursued anything all at once.

There's no reason to have contempt for these fields of study. And I have noticed that people who actually hold STEM degrees or are professors in those fields are on balance very respectful of and appreciate the fields discussed in this link. The same is true going the other way too--most of the humanities folk I know in academia are very appreciative of their STEM colleagues and fellow learners and the important work they do.

It's silly to put these disciplines at odds with one another. Through faulty rhetoric, idiot politicians and more often, internet commenters do it though. Sounds like they need more writing and rhetoric and philosophy and literature classes: maybe then they'd make some decent arguments.; २०/१२/१४, ११:४३ AM
Trashhauler म्हणाले...: Why study for an MFA? Because the Occupy movement needs signage.; २०/१२/१४, ११:४३ AM
wildswan म्हणाले...: The trades/agriculture section in high schools can't get enough teachers. Why? Because they require at least a BA. So a lot of guys in their sixties who might be interested in helping out and who have lifetime of experience in carpentry, welding, etc. are locked out because they don't have a degree. Bureaucratic state strikes again.

PS
That commenter whose son has an MFA and worked in a foundry and wants to settle down might suggest teaching trades in the high schools - those teachers get premium wages and are competed for.; २०/१२/१४, १२:०२ PM
damikesc म्हणाले...: Because we need more waiters, that's why.; २०/१२/१४, १२:११ PM
Sam L. म्हणाले...: Third best-rated comment: "Next in The Atlantic: Forming a garage band. An increasingly popular, increasingly bad financial decision. Next: Playing minor league sports. An increasingly popular.... Come on. People have dreams, and mostly they fall through. Why pick obsessively on the academic ones."

Because the academic dreams are more costly and the debt cannot be discharged by bankruptcy.; २०/१२/१४, १२:१४ PM
Michael म्हणाले...: Wild swan

Worse than you think. Not only do they have to have a BA, they have to be "certified" as teachers meaning courses in education, etc.

There are legions of men and women who would teach our young for free if the teachers unions were not in the way, a tragic waste of resource.; २०/१२/१४, १२:२३ PM
Dan in Philly म्हणाले...: Sports is not a good decision on the whole, but if you make it you really make it. That's why people do it.
As Tyler Cowen might say, average is over. Increasingly fewer people will make more and more, and to get a shot you need to play the game, which means school and likely lots of it.
I don't see this changing, except possibly allowing student loans to be subject to bankruptcy. Hopefully there will be an equity alternative, and capitalists will fund a MFA degree for a portion of the students future earnings.; २०/१२/१४, १२:२३ PM
Howard म्हणाले...: This is similar to an Atlantic article from Nov. 6 2014
Worthless Art Degree
Neither one nor the comments mention the film
Art School Confidential [trailer]
Which does a nice job in outlining how art school is mostly worthless training for anyone who actually wants to be a full-time not teaching no day job or supporting spouse or trust fund selling artist.

That said, there are ways of getting an MFA that works. However, it requires knowing which schools/courses/teachers to take and to avoid.; २०/१२/१४, १२:२८ PM
Skeptical Voter म्हणाले...: It's not just MFA's that have a problem.

I knew a young man (25 years down the road no longer young) who got a PhD in Chemistry. He wanted to teach. He and the woman he later married, also a PhD, have been academic non tenure track gypsies for 20 years now. A year or two at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, followed by two years at UC Santa Barbara followed by who knows where thereafter?

If you don't catch the tenure track brass ring, you're pretty much diddled.

I've got another friend, my age, who's a CPA with a law degree and an LLM in Tax. He's taught at half a dozen universities here in Southern California--three private ones, three state supported ones. He stays employed, but never hit the tenure track. Of course his conservative political views just might have something to do with that.; २०/१२/१४, १२:३६ PM
Wince म्हणाले...: Ann Althouse said...
When I went to art school, the whole point was to demonstrate that you were above economic calculations and into loftier things. Money might arrive but poverty was the usual fate. You're supposed to not care.

When I went to seminary school they said you petition The Lord with prayer... You cannot petition The Lord with prayer!!!

Of course, like all cult leaders, the schools themselves are never "above" economic calculation.; २०/१२/१४, १२:४५ PM
SgtPete म्हणाले...: Face it, short term gain, long term pain. Arts and lit is an easy "A' a short term gain, but now a long term pain. On the other side, short term pain, long term gain. Science, Technology, Engineering and science are hard, but long term gain is achieved, e.g., called employment. Young people need to understand this today, else tomorrow you'ill be basement bound and asking others "would you like fries with that?"; २०/१२/१४, १:१९ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: "It is important to be a well-learned, well-rounded individual, and college is an excellent way to start that out."

Too expensive these days. A better option to get educated, as opposed to credentialed, is The Great Courses or even The Khan Academy.

My middle daughter, who has a BS, an MSLS (library science) and was half way to a PhD in History, is now taking Certificate courses at UCLA for which, of course, I am paying.

Her younger sister, who ignored me when I suggested Accounting as a major, has her degree in French, has a good job in insurance but is thinking of going back for Accounting.; २०/१२/१४, १:४३ PM
ALP म्हणाले...: Moose said: "I bailed out of an MFA program in the 80's due to the ridiculously limited prospects it presented. I still loved art - but didn't see anyway I could be either happy nor gainfully employed as an MFA in painting."

********
We have similar stories - I bailed on a BFA program in the mid-1980's. When people asked why I told them: "Because I suck at bartending and as a waitress."; २०/१२/१४, २:१८ PM
ALP म्हणाले...: Michael K:

"Too expensive these days. A better option to get educated, as opposed to credentialed..."

You have no idea how it makes my day when I come across a statement that actually distinguishes between "education" and "credentials". I wish more articles in the mainstream press would do the same.; २०/१२/१४, २:३३ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.; २०/१२/१४, २:३९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Insufficiently Sensitive wrote:

"It's a class status symbol, don't you know. Regardless of any ability to create fine arts, nor to earn sufficient wealth to adorn your palazzo with them, the degree itself signals to certain sorts that you're in the know. You're one of them. You speak the language, think the right thoughts, and will march in the procession."

Reading the Atlantic is another.; २०/१२/१४, ३:०० PM
Static Ping म्हणाले...: It would be interesting to know how many of the MFA/BFAs are going to (a) people who want to teach, (b) people who want to be an artist of whatever sort, (c) people who are using the degree as a status symbol, and (d) people who just want to improve themselves. It would also be interesting to know how many of the students are financially secure, as in if this degree does not find them good employment that they can laugh off the cost. Getting a useless degree when one can fall back on wealth is not much of an issue.

The real concern is folks who do not appreciate their real chances and pursue a degree that has a high risk of low pay and high debt. No one wants to be the guy or gal in the "what happened?" scenario. The artist who goes in with eyes wide open that the teaching position may not be there and earning as a professional artist is a lottery ticket is not a concern. I salute your risk taking!

As to the garage band and minor league sports, it is an imperfect analogy, given that one does not need to advance 6 figures of cash before starting, as others have mentioned. I know a little about minor league baseball. They are paid but most of them are not paid much - one analysis calculates that the average minor leaguer earns less than minimum wage - and they are only paid during the season which only lasts 5-6 months. Most have to have a second job during the off season, something that was normal for major leaguers decades ago before the big money came in. However, if a player is a big prospect said player probably received a sizable signing bonus that makes things easier. Teams will often promise to pay for the player's college education if they sign before completing or starting that part of their education. In addition, a player can pretty much quit at any time and try something else without financial loss, not something one can do with a college loan.; २०/१२/१४, ३:०७ PM
Phil 314 म्हणाले...: We need a new WPA.; २०/१२/१४, ३:१७ PM
ALP म्हणाले...: RE: reasons for getting BFA/MFA -

My first foray into college was art school (dropped out - see my comment above). Sometimes its the obvious choice because you have the talent. Its pretty easy to take that path if that's what your strongest skill is (I started drawing obsessively as soon as my little hand could hold a pencil). Maybe the teachers of my rural high school should have sat me down to discuss other options, but I can't really blame them for thinking the best artists of my class (myself and a couple of other people) would pursue a career based on our strengths. You are not old enough nor experienced enough to consider other things, because you haven't done them. Its taken years of working other jobs, and maturity, to discover that I would have been a great CPA, CFO, or even a welder.

I am old enough to have had the opportunity to take shop, where I think creative, "love to make things" types should be, where one could learn marketable skills. Alas, I am also old enough to have grown up in the era of "girls take Home Economics and boys take shop". I wish I had the guts at the time to buck the system - its one of the things I would do differently if I had a chance to turn back time.; २०/१२/१४, ४:०२ PM
Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...: Because STEM is too hard. Also, women might have to put up with male co-workers who aren't "bad boys" and who, worse yet, aren't socially adept.

My kid is in a STEM PhD program, and the thing that is noticeable is that the work level has ratcheted up quite a bit from undergraduate, and that was for someone who worked hard enough to graduate Summa cum Laude. Almost everyone in the program works hard - really hard. Longer hours than they will ever work again, unless they get tenure track jobs. Of course, they are also all fully funded, which means that they won't end up with more debt. Masters students still work hard, just not usually as obnoxiously so. And so far their job prospects are holing up. Kid figures to use their Master's degree, if the PhD doesn't get them a good job.

The reality though is that STEM is much easier for some than others. And many people don't want to spend their lives with things, when they much prefer people. We are lucky, I guess, in family - my kid is the fourth generation with a math/engineering degree, so the math part comes more easily than for most (I taught them derivatives in middle school).; २०/१२/१४, ४:२९ PM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe म्हणाले...: Blogging.; २०/१२/१४, ४:३३ PM
Achilles म्हणाले...: "People have dreams, and mostly they fall through. Why pick obsessively on the academic ones."

Because I am subsidizing it.; २०/१२/१४, ४:५७ PM
Achilles म्हणाले...: RecChief said...

"Our High School no longer has an Auto shop class, nor a Trades and Industries class, or even VICA. When I asked the Superintendent why not, his reply was that a college degree was the key to a "good salary". Yet, I know quite a few non union plumbers, electricians, welders, mechanics, and auto body repairers who earn in the high five figures and a good percentage in six figures."

It is almost as if there is a conspiracy to enrich older liberal college professors and administrators at the expense of younger generations.; २०/१२/१४, ५:०१ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: " Regardless of any ability to create fine arts, nor to earn sufficient wealth to adorn your palazzo with them, the degree itself signals to certain sorts that you're in the know."

Ironically, my middle daughter, who is taking certificate courses, works now for a multimillionaire artist who sells his paintings for huge sums. I can't remember his name but she assures me he is a big deal in art.; २०/१२/१४, ५:४७ PM
Freeman Hunt म्हणाले...: The MFA is probably an okay deal economically if your art is welding.; २०/१२/१४, ७:०७ PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. म्हणाले...: It's a way for incompetents to get advanced degrees. You might as well buy a knighthood or a lordship online, much cheaper, and at least as prestigious.; २०/१२/१४, ७:५२ PM
Laslo Spatula म्हणाले...: Freeman Hunt said...
"The MFA is probably an okay deal economically if your art is welding."

This is why Freeman Hunt is a Treasure.

I am Laslo.; २०/१२/१४, ८:२५ PM
Alex म्हणाले...: Ann Althouse said...
When I went to art school, the whole point was to demonstrate that you were above economic calculations and into loftier things.

Money might arrive but poverty was the usual fate. You're supposed to not care.

12/20/14, 10:29 AM

On the taxpayer dime of course.; २०/१२/१४, ११:१४ PM
Alex म्हणाले...: Ironically, my middle daughter, who is taking certificate courses, works now for a multimillionaire artist who sells his paintings for huge sums. I can't remember his name but she assures me he is a big deal in art.

I guess she couldn't cut it in math.; २०/१२/१४, ११:१६ PM
Alex म्हणाले...: harrogate said...
Imagine how boring it would all be --and how it would kill the market for those fields--if everyone pursued STEM. Or if everyone pursued anything all at once.

There's no reason to have contempt for these fields of study. And I have noticed that people who actually hold STEM degrees or are professors in those fields are on balance very respectful of and appreciate the fields discussed in this link. The same is true going the other way too--most of the humanities folk I know in academia are very appreciative of their STEM colleagues and fellow learners and the important work they do.

It's silly to put these disciplines at odds with one another. Through faulty rhetoric, idiot politicians and more often, internet commenters do it though. Sounds like they need more writing and rhetoric and philosophy and literature classes: maybe then they'd make some decent arguments.

Excuse me if I don't have any respect for someone who has a degree in "Vagina Studies" or "Transgender Studies".; २०/१२/१४, ११:१८ PM
Alex म्हणाले...: Michael said...
I am a huge believer in the liberal arts. As a businessman I have noted over the decades that the most effective people I have hired have been English, History or Philosophy majors. Great communicators. I have hired an MFA but her degree was in writing. Also a good choice.

Yeah a not a single one is going to produce the next iPhone.; २०/१२/१४, ११:१९ PM
Alex म्हणाले...: Sgt Ted...

Oh, so the kids who aren't good at classroom book work can just go fuck themselves and work at McDonalds or some other shitty service sector retail job, instead of learning a useful trade?

So all those industrial areas that feature metal-work creating 3-D printers and things like that require only people with college degrees? The fact is if you have serious hands-on skills with physical shit you can find work in that area.; २०/१२/१४, ११:२१ PM
RecChief म्हणाले...: SGT Ted said...

Oh, so the kids who aren't good at classroom book work can just go fuck themselves and work at McDonalds or some other shitty service sector retail job, instead of learning a useful trade?

The Superintendent is a very shallow person.

I am sure he didn't think it all the way through. His point was that all kids should go to college. Which is false by the way.; २०/१२/१४, ११:५५ PM
Bad Lieutenant म्हणाले...: Alex, read harder. He's saying that you can't get those skills in school anymore because the super thinks everybody should go to college, hence no trades classes.

Personally I think every well rounded individual should have a thorough grounding in these courses. I would have loved to - we had a year or half a year of shop at Bronx Science and I loved it. I would've taken courses every year if possible. What is there for those who like to work with their hands?; २१/१२/१४, ८:२७ AM