The city of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, says the Hitching Post, a for-profit wedding chapel owned by two ministers, doesn't have to perform same-sex marriages.And let that be a lesson to everyone. Remember Coeur d'Alene. Don't redo that controversy. It's been resolved correctly now, and nobody ought to make that mistake again. There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?
The city has been embroiled in controversy ever since the owners of the Hitching Post sued the city. They say a city anti-discrimination law threatened to force them to marry same-sex couples now that gay marriage is legal in Idaho....
Initially, the city said its anti-discrimination law did apply to the Hitching Post, since it is a commercial business. Earlier this week, Coeur d'Alene city attorney Mike Gridley sent a letter to the Knapps’ attorneys at the Alliance Defending Freedom saying the Hitching Post would have to become a not-for-profit to be exempt. But Gridley said after further review, he determined the ordinance doesn’t specify non-profit or for-profit.
२४ ऑक्टोबर, २०१४
The Coeur d'Alene Hitching Post controversy comes in for a quick, soft landing.
What had happened was something I'd believed I could assure people was not going to happen, and I'm glad to see the local authorities — on receipt of a little push back from the country at large — gave matters a second thought and reversed their position:
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There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?
The answer that 21st century liberals give to your question is "no." Or perhaps "Hell no." 21st century liberals have been having too much fun fighting bogus culture wars; why would they stop now?
The Vagina as Fascist State will not let the reversal stand.
One locality (Coeur d'Alene) tried & failed. The battle will in the future be joined at the state or federal level. After all, the city of Houston, when smacked down on its subpoenas by the attorney-general of Texas, simply publicly denied they understood the contents of their own subpoenas, shrank the scope, and re-issued them.
While I agree with your wish for comity, I think even you don't think that'll be the case in the near future.
I know I should care, but I don't.
Never was focused on the wedding day.
A rare victory for common sense. I wish the legislatures (or at least the courts) would establish a clear principle in these conflicting rights cases. Call it the "most burdened" principle. Where a clash of two goods (religious freedom and individual rights in this case) requires adjudication, who would have the more difficult time capitulating to the other side?
Clearly, people who want to get married, or buy a wedding cake, or buy birth control at a pharmacy, or hire a photographer, have many other options they can pursue, at relatively little cost to themselves either financially or philosophically, rather than forcing an unwilling vendor to offer services. In such cases, it is absurd to expect people to lay down their deeply held religious beliefs rather than having the customers simply go to the next shop (even if that shop is in the next town over — if you live in a small town, you're used to having to do that for any number of things anyway). If the choice is between "find another vendor" and "either go out of business or violate your conscience," the former should be required.
I don't even much care about proof of whether the belief is "deeply held" or whatever. It's deeply held enough to refuse to make money. That ought to be proof enough in America.
Freedom of association.
Re: "...It's deeply held enough to refuse to make money. That ought to be proof enough in America."
That is genius.
What about cake bakers?
I knew Coeur d' Alene well 50 years ago. There was a bar called "The Athletic Round Table," or "the ART," that we used to hang out in. They were not as automatically lefty then.
Half the LAPD is retired in Sand Point, a few miles east.
No, because there can be a court decision in a week, or a month, or a year that will force them to marry people they don't want to marry.
Remember, opponents of the ERA claimed that it could be used down the line to justify gay marriage. They were ridiculed at the time. Then the Supreme Court of Massachusetts used the state ERA to do just that.
So, no, it's not over.
Michael K - Sandpoint is about 45 miles due north of CDL. Both are on US 95. Sandpoint is at the top of Lakr Pend O'Rielle. Bottom is Bayview, which has the only Navy base in ID. Pend O'Rielle is, in significantly bigger than lake Coeur D'Alene, and enough deeper that it never freezes. I like it better - much more scenic.
no, because although they reversed course this time, as leftish commenters here at this blog have pointed out, it's never over.
Since it's an LLC, not a corporation, it's tough to see how it could fall within an exception for religious corporations, but I guess that showd just how badly the city didn't want to fight this.
"It's been resolved correctly now, and nobody ought to make that mistake again. There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?"- Ms. Althouse
You're sarcasm tag isn't working again.
No. The Social Justice Warriors are so convinced that the culture wars are over, that they are shooting survivors of the losing side.
"One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship." George Orwell
"And let that be a lesson to everyone. Remember Coeur d'Alene. Don't redo that controversy. It's been resolved correctly now, and nobody ought to make that mistake again. There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?"
Well, no as a matter of fact, we can't. The State of Oregon says that cake bakers Aaron and Melissa Klein have to bake wedding cakes for lesbians.
'Aaron Klein said the couple is facing up to $150,000 in penalties, but plans to appeal any decision against their right to stand up for "religious freedom."'
He said the couple, who has five kids, have already been forced to shut down their storefront because of boycotts and harassment. Melissa Klein now makes "limited cakes" out of their house, he said.
What Big Mike said.
You don't seem to realize the sort of people you are allied with, Althouse.
" Sandpoint is about 45 miles due north of CDL. Both are on US 95. Sandpoint is at the top of Lake Pond O'Reille"
You're right maybe I was thinking of Wallace and Kellog where there used to be whorehouses.
Big Mike said...
There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?
The answer that 21st century liberals give to your question is "no." Or perhaps "Hell no." 21st century liberals have been having too much fun fighting bogus culture wars; why would they stop now?
****
To which I say ditto.
Ann, a "for-profit religious marriage business" is not recognizably a religion.
Or...is it? Is it EXACTLY a religion?
There's a reason Ann is so emphatic that this can't happen. Because there's really nothing special at all about religion -- but it's important for Ann's project that religion be exempt from the requirements, or there would be too much pushback.
When Andrew Sullivan invented the idea of gay marriage it was always very important to keep it encapsulated, keep it optional, but give it a civil rights edge. This is a very delicate dance. The intelligent people involved, like Ann, knew that there were enough religious believers that they couldn't impose anything on them without risking a backlash. But the dimwits, the ones who run the day-to-day activities of stupid little jackboot thug governments like Coeur d'Alene, actually believed all the nonsense she and Andrew spouted about "civil rights" and believed that it was the kind of noble mission that government should undertake against religious people, like the actual civil rights struggle of the 60s.
So you see posts like this one -- Ann trying desperately to have it both ways, to say it's a settled civil right but not impose it on religious people.
My mother got married (her third) at the hitching post lo those many years ago. The rather daft old Scots Presbyterian woman from the early 70s must surely be long gone.
I lived in Cd'A for 20+ years and it's kinda the local Niagara Falls newlywed/wedding-wise.
It is also more plebeian than the rather uppity Sandpoint. Although back in the day it was known for being Jerry Kramer's home town. And, man it was one rough town till the late 70s.
Remember to Pend Oreille is said Ponderay. And, I recall when all the hard ass LA cops rolled into the 3 northern counties.
"... a for-profit wedding chapel..."
I'm sick of the notion that profit invalidates freedom of conscience.
" There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?"
Not a chance, but thanks for asking.
There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?
No. Because reading comprehension.
Its over? Again?
How many times will this battle be over.
Ann trying desperately to have it both ways, to say it's a settled civil right but not impose it on religious people.
Exactly. Could you imagine a religious exemption for racial discrimination?
If same sex marriage is a Constitutionally protected civil right, there should be no religious exemption. The same for birth control.
It sure seems as if the Left lacks conviction in their position.
You are so gosh darn cute in your naivete sometimes, Althouse.
I was married at the Hitching Post, by Rev. Knapp.
Funny thing is--I seem to recall an old lady playing a keyboard for us, but I'm honestly not sure if that happened or if I'm making it up based on something I saw on the Simpsons.
I am a Christian. I think the Bible is quite clear that each man is supposed to marry one woman and stay faithful to her for life, or stay single. I think biology and psychology support this idea, too. Many problems in our society are the result of people violating these ideas. I think it is clear that marriage of a man and a woman allows each to use their basic nature in a way that leads to a little group called a family that functions well and is a source of much satisfsction in life. God will forgive transgressions but sometimes bad consequences remain.
I can't just live in diversity. It violates my conscience. I hope I don't have to go to jail because I think this way.
I also think that every person has a sinful nature and it is each person's responsibility to overcome sinful impulses, not celebrate them.
The other mistake people made here was in treating a statement by a city attorney as if it was a court ruling.
Exactly. Could you imagine a religious exemption for racial discrimination?
There is a religious exemption for racial discrimination. If you want to start a religion that only admits white people, you can. People have. On the non-white side, I direct your attention to the Nation of Islam.
Michael - was down in Wallace Kellogg a couple of weeks ago. Left my partner in Post Falls (just east of CdA) for the evening and popped down there to help give an IP law talk. I can definitely see prostitutes down there in an earlier time.
Larry - I still think that you are going to find more expensive houses on lake Coeur d'Alene than Pend O'Reille. Take a boat ride around the lake, and there is a lot of money there.
BTW - for anyone interested,Sunday brunch at the Coeur d'Alene resort is still fabulous. Esp the brown sugar bacon and Huckleberry Mimosas. Latter were $5 for all you could drink last Mother's Day. Unfortunately, I was the designated driver...
You mention the LA police rolling into the northern ID counties. This reminds me of a story about my partner from maybe 25 years ago. Land was pretty cheap around the small lake between this two bigger ones I have been talking about. The one that bears my family name (Hayden Lake). She was going to buy there, until it was pointed out that it was skinhead central. Would still have probably been a good investment, since they have been pushed out by the rich, but not quite rich enough to live in neighboring Coeur d'Alene.
And talking about survivalists, Ruby Ridge is just north of Sandpoint. Expect that Randy Weaver would never have moved there if that town had been nearly as affluent and popular as it is now.
I should note that we make it to both CdA and Sandpoint on a fairly regular basis. Maybe once a month for each. Nearest WalMarts are in those two cities, as well as Missoula and Kalispell. Also Cosco in all but Sandpoint. Harbor Freight in Hayden for all your Ebola gear. Sandpoint is the closest, and have a friend, another patent attorney, living at the bottom of Pend O'Rielle. Drive through Coeur d'Alene a lot though on our way to/from the Spokane airport (which has Southwest Airlines, where I was getting sub-$100 airfares to/from Denver last year).
Let me note that the Ebola thing is somewhat a joke, since there seem still to be a lot of survivalist/conspiracy types around there. Just instead of living in tents in the woods, they live in large houses around there. That whole area of N ID is probably one of the best prepared in the country for an Ebola outbreak. They are well read on the subject, and have enough money to buy all the stuff, from hundreds of gloves and masks, to whole body suits. Except now that airborne transmission may be a problem, they need to upgrade to positive air pressure systems. Except, of course, that population density is low enough, and people know each other well enough, that the chance of an outbreak there is lower than in most of the country.
What had happened was something I'd believed I could assure people was not going to happen, and I'm glad to see the local authorities — on receipt of a little push back from the country at large — gave matters a second thought and reversed their position:
The city of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, says the Hitching Post, a for-profit wedding chapel owned by two ministers, doesn't have to perform same-sex marriages.
Apologies if I've missed an earlier post on this, but if not then why did you wait until it was resolved this way to comment on it? If you would like to assure people that this sort of thing will not be a problem going forward, then shouldn't you make a point of being part of the push back?
If same sex marriage is a Constitutionally protected civil right, there should be no religious exemption.
So if you are not married in a religious ceremony, you are not married?
You guys can twist logic until you get where you want to go better than a 9-11 troother.
There is also the First Amendment which prohibits the government from establishing a religion. I wonder what your argument is to explain why forcing religions to modify their beliefs is not establishing religion?
In celebration of diversity this summer I embraced and fully accepted weeds in my vegetable garden. It was a liberating experience. In a fit of hateful hypocrisy my progressive neighbors kept their garden weed free.
"There now, can we all live in peace and diversity?"
"Doin' right ain't got no end."
If a same sex couple wants to get married in a religious institution, then they should find one that is accepting of their pairing.
The challenge for them of course is that as far as I can tell the religious institutions accepting of same sex pairings is on the level of the individual pastor/priest who is operating contrary to the teachings of their own church.
Violating another's rights to try and exercise your's is contrary to freedom.
"... believed that it was the kind of noble mission that government should undertake against religious people, like the actual civil rights struggle of the 60s."
The civil rights movement is the template. The communists saw the persecution of southern blacks by southern governments as a convenient pretext to attack their real enemy, private property. It would have been entirely feasible for the CRA simply to outlaw those acts of government that discriminated on the basis of race. But instead, the federal government chose to move against every owner of property in the southern states. By implication, the southern whites were all criminals, and they had all better reform right quickly. This precedent has served the Left well, and they have turned it into a production line; select "victim group", select "oppressor", fire!
I remember when Couer D'Alene was famous for it's Neo-Nazis. Apparently it still is.
Gahrie said...
Could you imagine a religious exemption for racial discrimination?
I don't have to imagine that which already exists:
++
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the use, possession, or transportation of peyote by an Indian for bona fide traditional ceremonial purposes in connection with the practice of a traditional Indian religion is lawful, and shall not be prohibited by the United States or any State. No Indian shall be penalized or discriminated against on the basis of such use, possession or transportation, including, but not limited to, denial of otherwise applicable benefits under public assistance programs.
—42 U.S.C. 1996A(b)(1).
Definitions
For purposes of this section— (1) the term “Indian” means a member of an Indian tribe; ...
—42 U.S.C. 1996A(c)
++
Oklevueha Native American Church Card Offerings
1) Oklevueha NAC Membership Card, ($200.00)
2) Oklevueha Federally Recognized Tribal and/or ONAC Independent Branch Card, ($25.00)
3) Oklevueha NAC Membership Military Service/Veteran Card, ($10.00)
++
As near as I can tell from their rambling, confusing description, church membership costs $200 for non-Indians, and $10 or $25 for Indians. And the non-Indians can still get busted for peyote possession.
No. This is not "resolved correctly."
Not by a long shot. A "religious corporation?" What the fuck is that?!?!?
Register as a non-profit? So people with deeply held religious beliefs cannot engage in commerce? Fuck. That.
They have to cease performing civil ceremonies if that's what the customer wants? Fuck. That.
Would they have to stop selling secular books in the lobby?
To hell with this. And to hell with the shits who think this is acceptable. This is a mockery.
I wish they had turned themselves in at the first sign that the city might try to enforce this thing and FORCE them to press charges. As a for-profit, privately-held, 1-2 person corporation. Let's see how well this withstands the RFRA and the Hobby Lobby USSC precedent.
As it stands now, this is a loaded gun, ready to point at the heads of other business owners to oppress them or cow them either into compliance or out of business.
These fascists have already forced one family into bankruptcy and out of business. They can all go to hell.
I was watching the local news and they were interviewing the mayor or city manager.
He said the reason the city was no longer pursuing the Hitching Post was the fact they had filed as a LLC.
Basically, he said when the ordinance was passed, the Hitching Post was under the ordinance. Once they filed as an LLC, he said the situation changed and they were no longer under the ordinance.
Even if Coeur d'Alene is a liberal mecca in Idaho, I doubt it's liberal enough to have politicians want to take on this fight. The City Attorney, on the other hand, might be a city employee, not an elected official, so that would offer some cover if he decides to pursue it.
Of course it's no over, in fact it offers the perfect environment for the homosexual activists to put their noses inside the religious tent-- a quasi religious organization (gasp, for profit) that certainly doesn't deserve the same protections as a true religious organizaton. Since the service they offer is no different that a photograph or cake, they can't hide behind their religious shield the argument will go.
Only two months ago they offered all sorts of marriage ceremonies-- from non-sectarian to Christian.
It's my understanding that their new mission is to offer only Christian ceremonies. That calls into question the 'sincerely held belief' objection.
The gay mafia will only be satisfied when Christians are driven back inside their cloistered compounds, along with their 'hateful' beliefs.
I would think Sandpoint is more liberal than Coeur d'Alene.
It would be interesting to see a demographic map of the interloper liberal transplants living in their summer lakeside homes, and the more traditional survivalist, anti-government types.
I remember being in Sandpoint on a business trip during the Ruby Ridge standoff. You could taste the animosity toward the government in the air.
Sitting maybe 10 miles from Cd'A right now, I was just reading the local paper. Brian is right - that they are using the conversion to an LLC as the excuse right now. But I think that it may be what came with that that maybe mattered. The Hitching Post owners seem to have consciously patterned their corporate structure on that of Hobby Lobby, styling themselves as a Christian company. While Hobby Lobby was decided based on the federal RFRA, the ID version is apparently very similar - and the obvious intent by the conservative ID legislature was to preclude just the sort of thing attempted by Cd'A.
Not sure which is more liberal, Cd'A or Sandpoint. My guess would be Sandpoint. It seems more filled with what we called a generation ago "yuppies". Cd'A seems to have older, much bigger money. But a lot of old money has gone Dem, possibly through guilt over not having to work for their money, or it coming too easy.
In any case, right now there appears to be better ammo selection in Sandpoint than Cd'A/Hayden Lake, at least at the Wal-Marts. Of course, there are other stores selling such around Cd'A and Hayden, and even a Cabellas.
I can't just live in diversity. It violates my conscience. I hope I don't have to go to jail because I think this way.
Well, apparently you can live in diversity which violates your conscience since you are doing so. People have pre-marital sex, drink alcohol, masturbate, eat pork, walk more than 2000 cubits and do a host of otherwise legal things which are forbidden by scripture.
And that does not compel me to sell alcohol or pork.
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