It’s a well-written, thoughtful e-mail — the opposite of the coarse remarks that cost Donald Sterling his ownership of the Los Angeles Clippers — but it’s no less offensive....Thoughtful, written analysis should count more than emotional spoken remarks, of course (contrary to the view of the linked WaPo writer). And Levenson was writing in the context of conducting the business of basketball, while Sterling was having an argument about his personal relationship. So Levenson really deserves to be in more trouble. On the other hand, the lesson taught by the Levenson case will be much more difficult to follow in practice. Can the economics of the spectator-sports business be discussed in terms of the race of the fans?
“My theory is that the black crowd scared away the whites and there are simply not enough affluent black fans to build a significant season ticket base,” Levenson wrote in the e-mail that the Hawks were attracting an “overwhelming black audience” and noted that “there are few fathers and sons at the games.” He went on to compare the cities. “Even [Washington], D.C., with its affluent black community never has more than 15 pct black audience.”
८ सप्टेंबर, २०१४
"Levenson’s demise was beginning even as he was one of Sterling’s most ardent critics...."
"Bruce Levenson announced that he would be selling his interest in the Atlanta Hawks... after a three-month investigation into a 2012 e-mail he had written to Hawks executives about the racial makeup of fans at games."
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टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
१७३ टिप्पण्या:
No, it cannot be discussed anymore than racial profiling vs percentage of black offenders can be discussed.
It seems he was telling the truth, or much of it. And the racist behavior here being discussed is on the part of the white fans or potential fans. Who are after all very likely to be avoiding the games for the very reason he identifies.
Which leads to the conclusion that any discussion of racial issues by a public figure is too dangerous, even if refers to indisputable truth, and even if it puts the onus on whites. Which leads to the conclusion that the only possible outcome in terms of race relations , or this particular case of race relations, is paralysis.
This is hysteria, and can't end well.
The Atlanta Hawks play downtown Atlanta. Atlanta is a predominately black city surrounded by white suburbs; suburbs which incidentally are largely inhabited by Northern transplants. These Yankees love blacks as a race but are keen to live as far away from them as possible.
Attracting them to city center to watch basketball is hard enough when it entails a commute during ungodly horrible traffic but is made more challenging when the city center is smack dab in the middle of a black run city to attend a sport that is favored by blacks in a venue that is going to be mostly black. Levenson was raising a very non-racist point unless, of course, he was pointing out the racism of our Yankee neighbors who are scared of black people. Pointing out that fact was not racist in the least.
The city will lose the Hawks to a city with very few black fans. Levenson was taking this excellent moment in the valuation of sports teams to confess to a racism that is difficult to see. The league will punish the racism by taking away a sports team from a black city. How politically correct can you get?
The city already lost their NHL team which played in the same arena for the reason that the most obvious customer for the sport lived miles away in the Yankee all-white enclaves of north Atlanta.
The baseball team is locating to a norther suburb. The Falcons will be left in town with a new stadium. We shall see.
There is not one single aspect of the NBA that is free of racism. This includes the hot dog vendors.
I was offended when I read the email yesterday. Of course I was more offended by him accusing white people of being scared of black people but that's just me.
Strangely I do remember a discussion I had with some classmates back in 2004-5 about how Nascar was trying to, or should, change to attract more black fans. One of my classmates worked for an Atlanta based hip hop label and described some of the things they were discussing with, I think, the Atlanta Motor Speedway. As a guy who doesn't care for Nascar or hip hop I really didn't have a dog in the fight. What my black classmates said about the problems with the Nascar environment and fans isn't all that different from what I read in the email from the NBA guy.
So advertisers are not allowed to aim their commercials toward particular demographics? And executives of any TV network which uses advertisers that market towards particular demographics need to resign.
My guess is Levenson's thinking went something like this: "Holy Crap, that piece of shit team in San Diego is worth 2 billion fucking dollars and they have never won anything. And, all I have to do to get some of that action is out myself as a racist? Where do I sign up?"
The first question is whether anything he wrote is actually incorrect--did he write something that is flat-out wrong? If so, what was it and how exactly was it wrong?
The second question is whether anything he wrote that is in fact wrong was also insulting regarding black people.
Now, what he wrote may in fact be wrong--there may be entirely different reasons why the Hawks were having trouble selling expensive tickets (such as, for instance, that the tickets were expensive--even people with money might have a price point at which they don't want to pay for the hassle of attending a public sporting event). The idea that white fans (a) tend to have more money than the black fans and (b) were staying away from the games because they found the black fans intimidating may or may not be true--is this based on anectdotal evidence? Was there some survey or focus group that led to this assusmption?
Now, if that assumption is untrue, and Levenson simply came up with this on his own, then the question is why he would come to this conclusion--if it is based solely on his stereotyped assumptions about black fans (vs. white fans) and no actual evidence, then I can see why his email was offensive and should be apologized for. It certainly is insulting to assume without any basis that some races are more intimidating than others. We shouldn't be promoting or passing on insulting stereotypes.
However, is forcing an owner to sell his stake in the team really an appropriate remedy? We're not talking about an owner who has pursued racist policies (like Tom Yawkey did with the Red Sox); this is simply at worst a bigoted opinion held by someone in power who has apparently not acted on such opinion. Punishing people for that gets us into thoughtcrime territory.
Of course, it seems to be his own decision to sell his stake, and that's either because he thinks his statements would have hurt the business or he has other reasons for selling. Such is his right.
buwaya,
"Which leads to the conclusion that any discussion of racial issues by a public figure is too dangerous, even if refers to indisputable truth, and even if it puts the onus on whites. Which leads to the conclusion that the only possible outcome in terms of race relations , or this particular case of race relations, is paralysis. "
Funny, but I never reached that "only possible outcome" as I considered many others.
I'm also not an apocalyptic thinker.
The sky is falling white people!
If you can't be racist to blacks, what do you do then? Who are you then? The answer can't be "nothing" and "no one" can it?
Can whites be human beings like everyone else - after 4 centuries of having their own farts blown up their own asses and declaring it good?
That might be "the only possible outcome".
It's a million dollar question.
Whites are probably shuddering at the thought, right now,...
It is just easier to ignore the NBA altogether.
Michael, do you have any data to support your statement that Atlanta's suburbs are inhabited largely by northern transplants? Your claim seems dubious. And even it it were true, it's then more likely that said transplants don't have a rooting interest in the local basketball (or football, or whatever) franchise.
Of course the dynamics of attracting fans can be discussed in terms of race. Consider this thought experiment: Blacks are under-represented in attendance. Wouldn't we expect management to attempt to address this under-representation? Shouldn't they take measures like playing a certain amount of hip-hop music rather than Lawrence Welk favorites, featuring black couples on the kiss cam, seeing to it that some of the cheerleaders are black? Of course they should. But when whites are under-represented, apparently even to discuss such measures is racist and highly objectionable. Ridiculous.
Michael,
"The Atlanta Hawks play downtown Atlanta. Atlanta is a predominately black city surrounded by white suburbs; suburbs which incidentally are largely inhabited by Northern transplants. These Yankees love blacks as a race but are keen to live as far away from them as possible. "
White Southerners and other partisans - the usual obstructionists as the rest of us are trying to build a country - are hilarious. Attempting to turn the subject to "Northern transplants" and "Yankees" when the topic is WHITE FOLKS. Of which the quoted speaker is very much a member - but, of course, he would prefer we look elsewhere so he throws out the diversion of political party affiliation, like ity matters to anyone but him and other whites.
Stay on point:
The problem isn't north or south, Dem or Repub, conservative or liberal - it's white people, white culture, and the white supremacy.
Stop trying to start a fight (white's biggest problem) and try resolving the one whites have already wrongly started.
By the way, this constant refrain about the North and Yankees just proves what assholes you are:
That talk was supposed to have been over in 1865,...
"Which leads to the conclusion that any discussion of racial issues by a public figure is too dangerous, even if refers to indisputable truth, and even if it puts the onus on whites. Which leads to the conclusion that the only possible outcome in terms of race relations , or this particular case of race relations, is paralysis. "
Are we living in Rochdale, England?
Abdul-Jabbar:
"Levenson is a businessman asking reasonable questions about how to put customers in seats."
Kareem also denies that it's a racist statement.
Says a man who knows the sport and the crowds and business. Means something to me.
So maybe now the discussion can shift to why there is fear among whites.
Why is it that folks who will be appalled by the invasion of privacy in the case of the actresses & their nude photos think nothing of invasions of privacy when it comes to hanging old "racist" Jews out to dry.
Levenson's private intra-corporate email was leaked. You know, the same sort of corporate email that always has disclaimers in it or on the login screen about how this is private email intended only for the recipient.
The same for Sterling. He was outed when his mistress illegally recorded a private conversation, thus making the conversation not admissible in court, except that of public opinion. I mean, shit, if a man can't trust his mistress to keep her mouth shut, what's the world coming to? Do we get to know how many NBA owners like to "do it" wearing a diaper?
Furthermore, poor old Sterling was then held to be mentally incompetent by the court at the request of his wife, who then forced the sale of the team against his wishes. Isn't it amazing that some old geezer who is found to be mentally incompetent to hold on to his property is somehow mentally competent & morally accountable when he makes a racist remark not long before?
Fuck this. The folks who are behind hounding these men out are just the modern equivalents of "Bring me the head of a Kulak!" These people are petty tyrants, and whenever they can be crushed in daily life, do it for the sake of the country.
Alan N,
"I was offended when I read the email yesterday. Of course I was more offended by him accusing white people of being scared of black people but that's just me."
Because whites never show blacks fear?
BWAAAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!
Go holster that gun arsenal whites find so important to keep on their side (Boxing says whites can't throw 'em from the shoulders) while saying how brave you are to white women.
Blacks don't buy it at ALL,....
If I understand the matter correctly, Levenson sent this e-mail and shared his thoughts with a wide variety of senior leadership and managers throughout the franchise.
2 years ago.
No one saw a problem with it at the time, or escalated it.
But a retroactive review, absent the context of the discussion at that time, finds it to be deeply racist.
Brando,
"The second question is whether anything he wrote that is in fact wrong was also insulting regarding black people."
Yeah - we need to know if white supremacy is REALLY noxious or was it only when Hitler and South Africa did it?
There might be hope for AMerican whites yet,...
It is clear why certain people around here react every time IQ is mentioned.
Crack, not all statements regarding black people are necessarily insulting, much as you may want them to be. For example, stating that blacks tend to have less money than whites is both true and neutral. Stating that blacks tend to have less money because they don't work as hard, on the other hand, is insulting.
"Can the economics of the spectator-sports business be discussed in terms of the race of the fans?"
Yes, if we are talking about stupid white sports like mud bogging and noodling.
If would have gone over easier if he had done a search and replace using African American instead of black.
I think some of his analysis was wrong. White people don't fear being the minority at the sporting event. They fear the idea of driving to the predominately black city center for the evening. Just like being at a Yankees game wasn't too scary, but going to and from the game was scary back in the 70's.
Crack Emcee:
"The problem isn't north or south, Dem or Repub, conservative or liberal - it's white people, white culture, and the white supremacy."
I thought Michael raised an interesting point about Yankees. I'm a transplanted northerner living in a large, Southern, majority-black city, and I was surprised at first how much warmer relations are - how much more social intermixing there is - between blacks and whites here than in the northern city where I lived for a long time.
"White culture." Guess we all look the same to you.
Nobody can be pure enough to survive this.
The Sterling precedent was one the NBA will regret.
Atlanta's attendance is abysmal...in all sports.
My guess is Levenson's thinking went something like this: "Holy Crap, that piece of shit team in San Diego is worth 2 billion fucking dollars and they have never won anything. And, all I have to do to get some of that action is out myself as a racist? Where do I sign up?"
The Clippers are usually abysmal historically, but have good young talent. Atlanta has been "meh" for decades and are basically a home game for all of their opponents.
The problem is the hysteria. It gets good ratings, so there it is.
Soap opera women rule everything owing to the needs of a single business, MSM.
What is just below the surface here is that native Atlantan owners have never had trouble dealing with the reality that Atlanta fans that have never been interested in losers.
We are not loyal fans of our teams. We are only fans of winning teams and refuse losers. Success is that important in Atlanta.
It takes an idiot owner from the north to ignore that overriding factor and drag in instead an imaginary theme that, "Them local whites hate to attend with black crowds" as a lame excuse to for his refusing to spend the money needed to field a winning team.
Native Atlantans have always felt comfortable in black crowds. We grew up hanging out with them at the music clubs on Auburn Avenue until 2:00 AM, which was as downtown as it gets two blocks from to Grady Hospital and one block from Ebeneezer Baptist Church.
A bit off OT, but I live in the suburbs of Atlanta and have attended a few Hawks games with my wife when her beloved Phoenix Suns were in town.
Phillips Arena is an okay venue - it's attached to CNN's Atlanta HQ - but it's a pain to drive to and park if you don't ride MARTA. Other than the drive and parking, we've had positive experiences at Hawks games. They aren't cheap, but what pro sports event is?
However, there is one thing I have learned since I moved here - Atlanta is a football town. SEC college football is a religion here. The NFL Falcons and MLB Braves get a little love, but hockey and NBA are pretty much invisible - even when the teams have a rare good year.
Can the economics of the spectator-sports business be discussed in terms of the race of the fans?
Why, yes it can. The fan base has a lot to do with whether the franchise makes money or not. If your market depends on a certain demographic you're not doing yourself any favors by ignoring the influence of that demographic.
It appears that Mr Levinson realized that if he couldn't persuade enough white people to buy tickets then his books might not be in the African-American.
Wasn't Levenson having that "conversation about race" we're supposed to have? Doesn't what happened to him make you white folks eager to join the conversation?
I'm not "white people".
Well, only partially so.
The sky is not falling, so much as in this case it seems rather stuck in a dreary state.
As for Black-White relations, frankly, as far as substantial drivers of ethnic conflict are concerned, this should be the least of anyone's worries. The real competitive threats to black people, as in threatening competition within market niches of all sorts, isn't white people.
The real competition is in places like Guangdong province, Mexico, Nicaragua, or even Dacca.
Its one world baby, that's where we all play now. In Hong Kong they don't give a flying squid ball about American parochial squabbles or the pointless and irrelevant reasons thereof. These other people are gweilo, but you are hakgwai, which isn't any better.
No matter what the reasoning, the result is the same: they can take their money and move on.
Isn't Levenson's argument that they are *losing* money because of black people?
It may be racist or it may be factually correct -- I neither know nor care -- but it certainly can't be accurately categorized the way the WaPo is attempting.
Crack Emcee:
"The problem isn't north or south, Dem or Repub, conservative or liberal - it's white people, white culture, and the white supremacy."
I guess that explains this:
http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/07/high-school-girl-taunted-beaten-at-bus-stop-for-acting-too-much-like-a-white-person/
Can you imagine the horror of having to grow up as a light-skinned african american near Crack?
Wow.
It's going to be brutal for that little niece/relative of Cracks that he recently mentioned that is very light skinned.
It's only going to get worse as the hispanics and lighter skinned folks use violence to drive more blacks out of shared neighborhoods:
http://www.yourblackworld.net/latino-gangs-launch-attacks-on-black-families-in-compton-to-drive-them-out-of-the-city/
Not going to be pretty.
As for Levenson, what does some yankee know about Atlanta culture?
Levenson, like crack, sure knows nothing about the black migration back to horrible old atlanta:
http://www.blacdetroit.com/BLAC-Detroit/June-2013/Black-Detroiters-Moving-to-Atlanta-for-New-Opportunities/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/nyregion/many-black-new-yorkers-are-moving-to-the-south.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Poor crack.
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go thru life.
"Holy Crap, that piece of shit team in San Diego is worth 2 billion fucking dollars and they have never won anything.
"San Diego?"
Someday we won't be told to shut up when discussing race. Then maybe we can make some progress.
Until then, the status quo will have to do.
betamax3000 said...
There is not one single aspect of the NBA that is free of racism. This includes the hot dog vendors.
The claim that the black's wieners were significantly larger than the white's wieners was not backed up by any scientific research.
Revenant said...
"San Diego?"
It's a long time since I paid any attention to that team. At least I didn't say Buffalo.
@ARM you know we're talking about the NBA, right?
Are you trying to say you thought the Clippers were a San Diego team?
Note to the commenter I deleted: If you have a problem with another commenter, you can:
1. Ignore him.
2. Argue with him on the substance of the subject of the thread.
3. Email me about something that you think could be the subject of moderation.
It's not acceptable to attack another commenter in the nonsubstantive way that just says you wish he wasn't here. I'm deleting that kind of clutter. And don't discuss this comment in this thread. Just absorb it and know it.
It's 1984. Crimethink. Don't dare speak or write a non PC opinion or your life will be ruined.
The email was written by a business owner about the profitability of his team. His crime was "noticing" that blacks and whites act differently.
We are supposed to pretend that race is a social construct except when it comes to affirmative action. What a crock.
Lets get real about race, sportsfans. Whites ride MARTA in large numbers to see Hawks games? Why do you think they scornfully call it MovingAfricansRapidlyThroughAtlanta?
I would also cite the experience Harrah's had when they were building their new casino at the foot of Canal St in New Orleans. They had been usinging the old Rivergate Convention Ctr on the same site, but when tear-down time came chose to temp relocate at the old Muni Auditorium directly adjacent one block over from one of the *worst* projects in New Orleans. Despite oodles of private security, increased lighting and xtra NOPD patrols in the area NONE OF IT would assuage the fears of middle-aged white women from the 'burbs in Metairie from driving in for a "girls night out." It quickly turned into an abysmal financial disaster and Harrah's quickly shuttered the doors until the new casino was completed rather than sustain the losses. No, no, race NEVER plays a part in these financial decisions! Riiigght..
The only answer is aggressive affirmative action to make the NBA "look like America". Ability be damned.
Beyond that I don't care. With only a few exceptions basketball is a trash sport, played by trash-talking, Black Trash who don't care about all the people they left in the dust to get where they are.
Well, to put it another way, the black NBA fans in Atlanta will shortly be deprived of an NBA team to root for in the flesh because the white owner of the NBA team confessed to discussing demographic factors in the marketing of his team. Team will likely move from Atlanta where 54% of the population is black to Seattle where 8.4% of the population is black.
This should solve the racist problem.
Virgil:
MARTA does not go anywhere near Phillips Arena. It does not go near any sports venue in the city, one of the reasons the teams have difficulty attracting people for events that require commuting through the gut of the city during horrendous traffic periods.
Black Atlantans will still be able to watch basketball on TV, however. I think the league will go along with that.
" it's white people, white culture, and the white supremacy."
Hey, you said it.
My deletions are explained above.
Do not discuss comment moderation in the comments.
Stay on topic. Stick to the substance.
PS: And Crack is wrong about it not mattering whether it's southern or northern whites involved. As I first learned when I first arrived in Baton Rouge in fall, 1962 from Illinois:
"In the North they don't care how *high* blacks get as long as they don't get too *close,* while in the South whites don't care how *close* blacks get as long as they don't get too *high.*
Large numbers of northern transplants bring those sentiments with them--especially to Atlanta. But then Atlanta is not a real *city* in the sense that N.O or SF is; rather it's better described as a non-city, a geological region--a spot on the Earth-- where people come to ply their trades. Or as one wag once put it: "Present-day Atlanta is what a quarter million Confederate troops died to prevent."
Incredible.
" Can the economics of the spectator-sports business be discussed in terms of the race of the fans?"
Apparently not. My maxim is never talk about race, period. It's sad, but that's where we are.
"It's only going to get worse as the hispanics and lighter skinned folks use violence to drive more blacks out of shared neighborhoods:"
The old black neighborhoods in LA are mostly Hispanic now.
Gee, to think demographics used to be a thing in Marketing. A big thing.
I think some of his analysis was wrong. White people don't fear being the minority at the sporting event. They fear the idea of driving to the predominately black city center for the evening. Just like being at a Yankees game wasn't too scary, but going to and from the game was scary back in the 70's.
Or maybe it’s not so much a question of fear as convenience. If it’s seen as overly difficult or inconvenient to drive to the game and park (it took me over an hour just to get out of the parking ramp at the last Twins game I attended – don’t know what it’s like in other major cities), I could see how that would factor into a decision by people who don’t live in the area (predominantly white) to stay home and watch it on television or get together with your buddies and watch it. But if I could walk a few blocks or hop on a bus for a short trip to get there and back because I live in the area, I might be more likely to go in person. There’s a certain premium that sports fans place on being able to attend a game live but it’s not an infinite one. With the increased problems of congestion and the greater availability of premium sports packages on cable (plus bigger and sharper television quality), I think a lot of sports fans (particularly the more affluent ones) could be opting out of attending games in person for reasons that have little or nothing to do with the demographics of those who actually do attend.
How is what he said any different than a company looking at their customers and seeing what their make up is so you can better market to them?
jr565
It is not different. Every single product manufacturer takes demographics, including racial composition, into account when deciding product placement, advertising placement and so on.
Hilariously the old Atlanta Thrashers management wanted to attract black customers to the ice hockey games and so employed hip-hop music during the intermissions and t.v. time outs.
You cannot win.
Obviously, if reparations had been paid when due, the black Atlanta fan base would be able to afford the season tickets the Hawks need to sell.
See how racist y'all are? It is so simple right in front of you. Just a few tens of trillions and these problems will just go away.
Play the ball where it lies America!
Absolutely the race of fans can be discussed, if relevant. My question is whether it was a real factor--Atlanta is a mostly black city, so of course their fans are going to be more black than say Boston. Whether the Hawks' fan base as a result will be poorer is another matter--I'm sure their marketing people have looked at that.
For a lot of fans I agree the convenience is a major factor--consider all the hassle to go see a game live, particularly if you don't live close. I'm fortunate enough to be walking distance from my city's football and baseball stadiums, but for those who have to deal with traffic and parking, that's a significant cost and it can even make you dread the end of the game knowing you have to navigate all that. Then of course concessions are very overpriced (you may be able to afford an $8 hot dog, but you may still shudder at having to pay it), and weather can be a factor (for outdoor venues) not to mention sometimes having drunk obnoxious fans, and waiting for bathrooms.
Compare that to watching at home or your local bar, where you can change the channel if it bores you or go do something else. Sure, being at a game live is a neat experience, but the costs and hassles can outweigh it.
Levenson seems to be grasping at why he's not getting richer, whiter fans, and they're valid questions to ask. It's the assumption that the whites are intimidated by black fans though that's questionable. Does he have any basis for that assumption?
Brando,
"Crack, not all statements regarding black people are necessarily insulting, much as you may want them to be. For example, stating that blacks tend to have less money than whites is both true and neutral. Stating that blacks tend to have less money because they don't work as hard, on the other hand, is insulting."
Still wrong. Saying blacks tend to have less money than whites - AND LEAVING OUT WHITE'S ROLE IN WHY - isn't "neutral" but typically ahistorocal white supremacist propaganda, designed to mainstain staus quo, because it denies agency.
Blacks aren't just poor - blacks are MADE poor. Blacks are here to BE poor. Blacks are here to SERVE and, beyond that, whites have no idea what to do with us as human beings.
We have to WASTE OUR LIVES marching, protesting, fighting, and producing MLKs or whoever, and singing songs about "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" and FREEDOM while whites are on vacation in Europe and/or trying new dishes in quaint little restaurants with the proceeds of their theft.
"Stating that blacks tend to have less money than whites is both true and neutral"?
Whites have so far to go in understanding anything of what they've done to those words - and to their own people:
All of us - Americans,...
JPS,
"Guess we all look the same to you."
Yeah. The northern whites have one way of saying "No" to reparations and justice, and the Southerners have another, gentler version. Of course, the Southerners got all the rape-yness out of their systems, so they can afford to kind of relax with a cigarette and talk afterwards.
There will be no money left on the dresser, though.
Same as in the North, that,...
Unfortunately the owner's financial ideal of owning a city held hostage by a Franchise's monopoly with attached fans that will come watch a 50/50 team that doesn't win much or lose much but refuses to pay what is needed to keep superstars may work in Dallas for Jerry Jones or in Chicago Cubs.
It does not work in Atlanta. So do us all a favor and sell out now.
Drago,
You're still too stupid for an answer.
Sorry, bub,...
What if it's true?
If Sterling had not happened, Levenson would still be part-owner.
People are so touchy these days.
TradGuy:
The NBA and NHL teams in Atlanta have been owned by quasi-rich syndicates. To afford high quality talent and build a team takes a real rich guy, an Arthur Blank or a Ted Turner, willing to suffer losses year after year after year in anticipation of the capital event which seems to be the point of profession team ownership in the modern age. The NBA will be off to Seattle and its 8.4% black population and our own basketball fans will be left with the same feeling as our own ice hockey fans: abandoned and pissed that the former owners were the wrong ones for the job.
After the Clippers sold for $2B, maybe he "turned himself in" to cash out of the game.
tim in vermont,
"Obviously, if reparations had been paid when due, the black Atlanta fan base would be able to afford the season tickets the Hawks need to sell."
Considering it came up right after the Civil War, you're probably right. Silly white people.
"See how racist y'all are?"
I do.
"It is so simple right in front of you."
Yep - you take something, you should give it back - simple.
"Just a few tens of trillions and these problems will just go away."
I don't hear anybody complaining about the Japanese getting reparations for WWII - especially not about how it hurt their pocketbook - only blacks get this kind of they're-taking-it-from-me bullshit. (Did the Japanese reparations hurt you personally and/or financially?)
"Play the ball where it lies America!"
Fuck that - play it anywhere you like and you lose. That's been settled.
What whites have to learn is to play fair,...
No, next question.
"What whites have to learn is to play fair,..."
And you get to define "fair."
Maybe this was what Levenson was getting at:
http://www.thv11.com/story/news/crime/2014/09/07/over-100-teens-swarm-memphis-plaza-knocking-out-shoppers/15262309/
It's a good thing the knockout game doesn't exist, otherwise the white guy on the ground might have been hurt.
You'll have to forgive crack.
He was honestly oblivious to the "northern blacks migration back south" movement that has been going on for 30 years.
So, you know, crack has his finger on the pulse of "what's happenin' now".
"What can't be paid, won't be paid." - Captain Obvious
ARM: "It's a long time since I paid any attention to that team."
Admirable consistency across just about all subject matter.
If all he is doing is thoughtfully discussin demographics why should he sell his team?
He knows who's buying season tickets. If it's not black people and they make up the majority of his audience he needs to figure out ways to market season tickets to blacks or get non blacks to buy season tickets
It would be no different than a movie exec noticing that black men don't seem to go to a lot of Cameron Diaz movies (or men in general). Bit if you want to get that demographic you need to find a way to get them into the seats.
And this is now racist?! There must be more to the argument then what althouse posted. It can't be this mundane and normal. Did he sprinkle in some jokes about blacks and watermwlons somewhere? I'm scratching my head trying to come up with the outrage about something.
Another word for "reparations" is "land reform."
Show me someplace that has worked out. How about Venezuela? Wasn't Chavism about reparations to the poor? Can you give an example of where it has worked?
jr565
Nope. No hidden racism. The email in its entirety is online. Not the most elegant bit of business writing, but a general rambling on about what is described by Althouse.
He has to sell the team because the NBA which makes its money on the backs of black atheletes is sensitive about race. In this case the team will likely be sold to owners in a city with an 8.4% black population.
Solving the problem.
tim in Vermont: "Show me someplace that has worked out. How about Venezuela? Wasn't Chavism about reparations to the poor?"
LOL
Classic example of lefty "success".
You need an ID card in Venezuela to buy food.
Inevitable in every single left wing governmental "experiment".
But only every single one.
Levenson and the NBA should just make sure that the purchasers of Levenson's percentage are black.
Perhaps just have the league pay Levenson directly (some fair market value) then have the NBA simply give the purchased % to any black owners.
Levenson is out and paid off.
The NBA gets more black owners.
Some reparations are "paid" (essentially).
And now no one can criticize the Atlanta Hawks organization or even make note of it's lack of success because "racism".
Perfect.
jr565: "He knows who's buying season tickets. If it's not black people ..."
Turns out playing the knockout game, raiding stores en masse and having Jesse shake down companies just isn't lucrative enough.
More importantly, in Atlanta, a city which has grown it's black civil servant base into massive numbers of highly paid - do nothing - government employees, if you can't get black season ticket holders there, where can you?
I can't believe there aren't 10,000 potential season ticket holders in DeKalb county alone.
Crack believes that black people are superior to white people, because white people are mass murderers, while black people are not.
Just thought I'd point that out. The conclusions to draw from that are obvious.
is what he wrote true?
that there are few fathers and sons at the games?
that there are few whites in attendance?
that there are few affluent african americans in attendance?
If those statements are true, why are they offensive?
Can't leftists handle the truth?
Oh, and let it be said for the record: pointing out that Crack thinks that black people are superior to white people, because white people are mass murderers and black people are not, is absolutely an on-topic response to his posts today.
To claim otherwise is to contort one's reasoning for no reason other than to protect someone who can't protect himself.
Actually, Atlanta has always been a shitty pro sports town.
empty seats at lots of games. tried hockey twice and couldn't make a go of it (personally, I don't think there should be an NHL team in a city that never sees ice, but that would mean the relocation of 10 teams so Gary Bettman isn't listening to me any time soon), lots of empty seats at all the other sports unless they are winning lots of games, not just a middle contender.
Crack's unwitting advocacy on behalf of white supremacists notwithstanding, Levenson deserves what's coming to him. The way he phrased the note, it's clear that he does have racial animus.
If his problem is that the culture of the audience is driving away affluent customers, say so. It's not necessary to bring race into it. "We need to attract a better class of customer" is a common sentiment in business discussions, and safe enough.
RecChief
'is what he wrote true?
that there are few fathers and sons at the games?
that there are few whites in attendance?
that there are few affluent african americans in attendance?
If those statements are true, why are they offensive?
Can't leftists handle the truth?"
I have been to scores of Hawks games and there are lots of whites in attendance, just not the majority. I haven't paid much attention to the father/son attendance but I would guess it is low to low average.
Most of the blacks could be affluent but the point is there aren't enough of them or whites to make for a break even annually.
Leftists cannot handle the truth.
RecChief:
When the Braves announced they were moving to the perimeter of Atlanta there was a hue and cry. They produced a map showing where every single ticket buyer lived and the map indicated that the new location was right on the edge of the mass of buyers.
There are maybe six sheets of ice for hockey in Atlanta, all of them north of the Perimeter for the obvious reason that Yankees relocated to the area live north of the Perimeter. Away from the center of the city. If a hockey and baseball venue had been built side by side in Cobb Country there is a good chance that the NHL would have remained in Atlanta
DS:
Cut and paste the bits about racial animus in his email to his colleagues if you will. I would like to see what you consider animus.
Michael --
"My theory is that the black crowd scared away the whites and there are simply not enough affluent black fans to build a signficant [sic] season ticket base."
His problem with the crowd is that they're black. He starts to get close to the right way to think about it here:
"And many of our black fans don't have the spendable income which explains why our f&b and merchandise sales are so low."
Well sure. You want your customer base to be richer, both because they can spend more directly, and because richer people like being around other richer people. So, improve the environment for the wealthy customers and try to avoid poor customers (e.g., by not GIVING AWAY tickets, as he describes in the email).
The whole note could have been written purely from the perspective of the wealth of the audience, and would have accomplished the same thing. After all, he shouldn't care that the audience is 70% black if they're spending money, right?
Except that it seems like his problem with the crowd is that they're black, not that they're poor.
Anyway, if the fallout of this is that people discuss business in purely economic terms rather than saying "let's have less blacks," that's not a bad thing.
Since this is the conversation conducted in every civil rights business and diversity office, the problem is likely that Levenson's speach was not "authorized" by the protection racket, or that he possessed a capital interest which was desired by one or more of its operatives or investors.
That said, the racket employs people who have hopes and dreams of instant or immediate gratification. Use the First Amendment with extreme caution. They are looking for any excuse to commit redistributive or retributive change. Especially to political, economic, or social competitors.
This strange man was using the old category that black skin is a race that is so different from whiter skin that neither groups can enjoy being around the others out of fear.
Frankly that is wrong. The human skin colors are a usually mixture among persons, and what matters in public is the behaviors and cordial attitudes.
One lessons southerners have learned is not to fall for such simple racial division games. Ya'll can take that crap back north with you when you leave.
I apologize if this point has already been raised in the 95 comments previously posted, but why is is permissible to talk about the Republican Party's failure to attract black voters, but not about a basketball team's failure to attract black fans? Both, it seem to me, are reasonable and unoffensive inquiries.
What was racist and offensive was to note that the effects of racism continue and to try to run his business in that environment, rather than dedicate his business to the needs of the political class.
Had he simply pointed out that the reason his black customers had a hard time supporting the team financially because of white racism, he would have been fine.
What a tool!
SF isn't a real city either. People move there to have sex and work. Then those that want to marry and have kids move to the 'burbs. SF is very unfriendly to families. Schools and housing prices suck. OTHO are their any "family friendly" big cities?
Levenson's analysis is in compliance with Democrat political and civil rights corporate dictates. Unfortunately, it is this for-profit political, financial, and social model which has delayed or prevented integration. The goal should have been assimilation. The practice was, in fact, extortion. A pro-choice model is inherently degenerate and requires leverage to escape, or rather delay, its consequences.
Thurber points out that it's not true that it's always wrong to strike a woman, in his essay on the split infinitive.
Somebody will have excerpted it. Yes, here.
DS:
I believe you are inserting a bias where there is none.
I don't see animus where you do. Atlanta is a black town and he knew it when he bought the team so there is no surprise to him or to anyone that there would be a lot of black fans buying tickets. Observing the race of attendees is not racist.
He notes also the indisputable fact that the crowd on the whole is not as affluent as other teams in the NBA. Observing the economic status of customers is not racist. Observing that f&b and merchandise sales are below that of other teams and below that of the former NHL team is not racist.
The giving away of tickets is something that the league, the non-racist but very PC league, wanted (compelled?) them to do to make it look as though there was more attendance than would have been (the Thrashers routinely curtained off much of the hockey arena to make it look more full.). Nothing racist about free tickets.
His problem was/is that the black patrons are not spending enough money at the games and that there are not enough of them. He is simply struggling to find a way to attract the more affluent. I am sure he could care less if the entire audience was black and spendthrift.
Could he have done so without mentioning race? Perhaps. But from a marketing point of view he was making the point that the affluent might not want to listen to hip-hop.
He also observed that the crowd was late to arrive and that the fan base was more blasé than he would like. Nothing racist there.
Michael -- he said "I think black people don't cheer [for the sports team I own] as much as white people."
That thing I inserted there is important. This is a sports team owner discussing why he he doesn't like his crowds. I guess you could argue that if an academic had a theory about black/white cheering, and did a study on it, that might have no animus.
But this guy owns the team. He sees the crowd not cheering as much as he likes, and assumes it's because there's too many black people in it.
So -- ascribing negative attributes to a whole race? That's animus. And unless you're black, you can't get away with that in this country. And that's OK.
Is not cheering as much a "negative attribute"? I don't see how you can make that jump.
I guess if a guy who runs a "big and tall" shop complains about normal sized guys not fitting into his clothes, that is a negative stereotype?
"And unless you're black, you can't get away with that in this country. And that's OK."
That is your opinion. Opinions are like turds, everybody usually pinches out several a day.
@tim -- yeah that's why I mentioned that the guy owns a sports team.
You say:
"I guess if a guy who runs a "big and tall" shop complains about normal sized guys not fitting into his clothes, that is a negative stereotype?"
...well. There's a lot to unpack there, but the core logical flaw is that you're only talking about 1 attribute. A short guy has the attribute "being short", so of course it's not "animus" to assume he's short. It's tautology.
yes lets slam Levinson, for using FACTS in his argument. And while we are at it, lets slam Jimmy the Greek again, for pointing out an obvious fact about blacks back in the 80s. Is speech not allowed anymore.?
have you ever seen a product advertised using a biracial couple or group where the group or couple is partaking in a black ethnic activity? NO. The activity norms to whites. Look for it. Why? THAT IS WHERE THE MONEY IS TO BE SPENT ON THE PRODUCT. Now if the add is for huge earings or tattoos,,,,
"Can the economics of the spectator-sports business be discussed in terms of the race of the fans?"
So no more criticizing the NASCAR rednecks, right? Or the hunters?
By the way, where is the Braves' new stadium?
Of course there is a difference. No stupid emails from Braves ownership or management has surfaced.
Yet.
DS
Dont see your point. If his crowd is predominately black and he observes they are not as enthusiastic as white audiences he has observed why is there animus in his observation rather than simple inelegance?
There are a lot of affluent blacks in Atlanta. Enough to form a base for season tickets.
The corporate spending is still largely white influenced or controlled, and I wonder how much corporate Atlanta has been supporting the team.
Hey, the Braves flee to a white suburb (which opposes extending Marta to the stadium because it will bring blacks in.) The corporates are lukewarm in support of the Hawks. Sounds like a fun story just beginning to be told.
And if you think they didn't have a racial motive for opposing the MARTA extension consider the old Atlanta acronym joke:
MARTA = Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta.
Go Braves.
DS,
"Oh, and let it be said for the record: pointing out that Crack thinks that black people are superior to white people, because white people are mass murderers and black people are not, is absolutely an on-topic response to his posts today."
Show me where I said that, anywhere. I didn't - it's just more white apocalyptic thinking. My statements get blown up into "blacks are superior" because whites have ways they've been fuck-ups. Sorry, blacks were born into slavery, so we're culturally averse to it. Whites are not. That's not superiority but a cultural awareness of America. Something whites are sorely lacking in.
"To claim otherwise is to contort one's reasoning for no reason other than to protect someone who can't protect himself."
To claim I said something I didn't - to maintain slavery's status quo - just supports my asserion.
@Michael -- did you read the relevant part of the email? He says he thinks that black people don't cheer as much, and then refers to it (in what I think is a wry tone) as "one of my theories".
I'm surprised this is that difficult. Having elaborate theories about how races do negative things (and, if you own the team, not cheering for it is negative) is racial animus. It's animus when Crack, wiping the flecks of foam from his mouth, declares that whites are the world's genocidaires; it's animus when Levenson writes this bizarre note about how those other teams don't have to deal with all the stoic black people.
tim in vermont,
"And you get to define 'fair.'"
No, America did - All Men Are Created Equal - and that you don't recognize that, or how whites have continually violated that maxim, or how pissed they get to be held to it, says all anyone needs to know about their "patriotism."
Whites could care less about any of it,...
Althouse: "Can the economics of the spectator-sports business be discussed in terms of the race of the fans?"
Gosh, the Feral Gummit sets the example. Anything and Everything is tracked, reported, analyzed, and discussed to insensibility on the basis of race.
tim in vermont,
"What can't be paid IN FULL, won't be paid AT ALL." - Captain Bullshit Artist
This is called "Letting the great stand in the way of the good."
You can admit America did it, but, since the bill is high, whites will decide they'll pay nothing - a decision made completely on their own, like white supremacy still rules the land "forever," as their ancestors said.
Your support for this position kinda makes it hard to convince us, you think those ancestors were wrong, doesn't it?
Keep fighting for it:
You're just playing into the trap those very same ancestors set for you,...
@David/
Same in New Orleans where largely white adjacent Metairie has always opposed extending the MTA bus-lines from Orleans Parish (LITERALLY across the street is the Parish line) and likewise all the cities on the north-shore of the Lake.
Cobb county has voted against MARTA for decades, long before the baseball team was announced.
DS,
"It's animus when Crack, wiping the flecks of foam from his mouth, declares that whites are the world's genocidaires"
Gee, did I say that, or are we discussing America? See how you do it? Now my comments about America are blown up into "the world."
Whites - with their vast numbers - are definitely this nation's apocalyptic thinking kings. Everything is changed into something more alarming than what's plainly in front of us. That's what DRUDGE is all about - scaring the beejeezus out of white people:
BENGHAZI!!
HILLARY!!!!
OBAMA!!!!
BLACKS!!!!
BLACK KIDS!!!
GAYS!!!!
WOMEN!!!!
REPARATIONS!!!!
Whites are cowards, sticking your hollow chests out every three or four days,...
DS,
"But if you're really going to make me do this,..."
Yeah - blacks have always forced white's hand, haven't we?
Crack -- remember, our hostess has a policy that responses to other commenters should remain on-topic!
If this policy didn't apply to you...why might that be?
I love the idea that Crack thinks it's because he's a nice guy ;-)
Anyway, this is really what this thread is about: if you observe someone doing something you don't like, don't assume it's because of their race. They might just be assholes.
And especially, don't write an intra-office memo about it.
OTHO are their any "family friendly" big cities?
Minneapolis/St. Paul? Denver?
I wonder if Phillips arena will be used for Tractor pulls or just the odd concert after the Hawks are sold off to lilly white Seattle where the demographics of the fans wont be troubling. Financially speaking.
Maybe the black Hawks fans will wish they had cheered louder or spent more. Or maybe they will just buy the NBA cable package.
The Atlanta Falcons have a huge black fan base. Part of the Hawks problem is that the cost of professional sports attendance is huge and supporting two sports is financially stressing for even the well off. Atlanta is just not into basketball.
You know Crack, you are the one who brings up Reparations all the time. I honestly only think about it as a personal obsession of yours.
I am still waiting for mine from the Italians for what the Romans did to the Celts.
Except, you know what? If none of that bad shit had happened in history, none of us on this planet today would be alive, including you.
That's right, Hitler isn't born, you aren't born. I am not born, nobody here is born. Slaves aren't bought in Africa and brought here, you aren't here, neither am I, neither is anyone of us on this planet. There is no place on this planet so remote that it has not been touched by history enough to make a different sperm out of trillions fertilize one of tens of thousands of eggs. Even if there only contact with civilization is to look up at a satellite in the sky at dusk. Yup, now the fateful sex act is moved in time by some unknowable number of seconds, or milliseconds, or hours, or whatever. Body position is moved slightly. An entirely different human race now exists.
I am not "fighting for" anything, BTW. Just passing the time. Your dreams of "reparations" are no different than the woman who wants the world to be made of only 10% men. because of our crimes against humanity.
"...centuries of having their own farts blown up their own asses and declaring it good..."
Pretty sure that those words have never been strung together in exactly that order since the dawn of language. I would google it, but I am usually a better search engine than any of those fancy algorithms. That goes to prove my new theory that if you cram a bunch of blog commenters in a webspace, they will eventually write a magna carta.
I see where Crackhead said that blacks are adverse to slavery. Good joke. Hahahahahahahahah.
And, all I have to do to get some of that action is out myself as a racist? Where do I sign up?"
A-Greed!
"Levenson made the decision after a three-month investigation into a 2012 e-mail he had written to Hawks executives about the racial makeup of fans at games."
What the Hell? Who conducted the "investigation"? Did he investigate himself?
chillblaine,
"...centuries of having their own farts blown up their own asses and declaring it good..."
"Pretty sure that those words have never been strung together in exactly that order since the dawn of language."
Blacks "are inferior to the whites in the endowments of both of body and mind."
--Thomas Jefferson, 1787
I'll stop there. The list of white assholes who spread this garbage is too fucking long to go on,...
Ann,
"Can the economics of the spectator-sports business be discussed in terms of the race of the fans?"
Of course. If we weren't a racist culture even these bozos could see it. But when you have the likes of Michael K, who can't speak without lying to himself, about himself or anybody else, then it becomes difficult to see how.
It's so wild that I can sit with my black friends and a race conversation is nothing like whites talking. First of all, discussing what whites have done isn't seen as a pejorative, but a fact. Same with where blacks are in this country. Second, we don't feel the need to wantonly dump on whites, and especially not to make ourselves feel better like whites do. White resentment is deep, and evidence they hate white supremacy's death. (Blacks are just wanting justice, not to take things over.)
It's whites who are making life difficult - even to talk about things.
Nothing new about that,....
Well, you certainly have a gift for getting people out of their comfort zone.
I don't doubt the challenge of feeling optimistic when our so-called fathers have expressed beliefs like you cited.
the atlanta solution of course is to jack up ticket prices. that's how the city of san francisco did it in a stealth racist way to reduce their black population.
It's not acceptable to attack another commenter in the nonsubstantive way that just says you wish he wasn't here.
Acceptable:
Asking whether [another commenter] can be a human being like everyone else
Saying the problem is [another commenter]'s people, [another commenter]'s culture
don't discuss this comment in this thread
You're a racist, Althouse.
Who the hell wants to watch a professional sports game in which only giants and less than .000001% of the population can play?
"It's so wild that I can sit with my black friends and a race conversation is nothing like whites talking. First of all, discussing what whites have done isn't seen as a pejorative, but a fact." - Crack
Bigots always think they are discussing simple facts that nobody wants to confront. What do bigots get out of it? A sense of elevation of spirit, a small frisson of ego balm. Are bigots bigots because it makes them feel low and mean? No. They are certain that they are privy to some higher truth that others refuse to recognize.
Michael said...
Cobb county has voted against MARTA for decades, long before the baseball team was announced.
Precisely. MARTA = Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta. They did not need baseball to knew they wanted to avoid Rapidly Moving Africans. But when Baseball decided to spend hundreds of millions to build a stadium in Cobb, and financing was available for a Marta extension, the reasons to oppose were even more compelling.
My point is that there are bigger fish to fry than Levenson and his email, but nobody wants to fry them. Especially in Atlanta, where the elite and powerful blacks and elite and powerful whites have had a nice thing going for decades.
Look Crack, this is not about you being black and me being white. I have a black house guest right now, and have for a week now. Well, she's Jamaican, so maybe that is not authentic to you. She is very conservative, in the traditional sense of the word, she would never vote for a Republican.
I am happy that I share her friendship and honored to be close with her family, who are like nieces to me. I learn some things from her, and I see that she gets treated differently in her business affairs even. She also has values that I question, for sure, but our deeper, human values are shared. Some of the things we think shock her too, BTW.
Long story short, I like to discuss ideas. All ideas. That is what I am doing here engaging with you. It is not about hate on my side. I am just trying to get you to articulate your ideas more clearly, to understand them yourself. I am an old man now, this is what I like to do.
sdharms said...
have you ever seen a product advertised using a biracial couple or group where the group or couple is partaking in a black ethnic activity? NO. The activity norms to whites."
What the hell is a black ethnic activity?
Someone mentioned that Atlantans won't support a non-winning team. After thinking about it, I think it's deeper than that. Georgia is all about Football. Having spent quite a bit of time in the Columbus and Savannah areas, I think I can safely say that COLLEGE FOOTBALL is the church that Georgians go to exercise their sports religion. And maybe the other sports owners don't realize that.
Levenson's other problem is capitalism, pure and simple. A better product on the court will produce more people in the stands. You can see the Hawks' season by season records here
Missing the playoffs year after year or getting bounced in the first or second round when you do make the playoffs is bound to hurt sales. I'm guessing the merchandise sales for Ga Tech and UGA are pretty high by the way
RecChief said...
Ann Althouse said...
Do not discuss comment moderation in the comments.
Seems the list of what is not allowed is getting longer. Perhaps you should post a list of the rules so that we can all understand what gets moderated out. It's interesting that some comments about other commenters are deleted while other disparaging comments are allowed. If there is to be a civility standard, shouldn't it be applied equally across the board?
This just looks like a demographics conversation to me. I don't see what's objectionable in this. At least the part quoted seems like a normal marketing conversation to me.
The Georgia lottery uses black male voices and white female voices to advertise the lottery on radio (southerners, white and black, can tell the difference easily). Is that racist, or are they just addressing their customer base? It's on the radio every day. No one has ever said anything about it publicly.
BTW, I have been on the MARTA when I and my family were the only white people in the car--white privilege I guess.
That really is unfair. Afterall, black minds brought us Calculus, Trigonometry, Medicine, Astronomy, Music Theory, Shakespeare, Civil Law, Physics, Chemistry, Space Travel, the discover of all 17 types of plane symmetry, the Steam Engine, Theory of Gravity, High Speed Trains, Television, Atomic Bombs, Crop Rotation, Arabic Numbers, Sanitation, Elevators, Lenses, the discovery of Pluto, Pythagorean Theorem, Global Circumnavigation, iPods, Radios, Toothpaste, Stamps & Coinage, etc. etc.
Indeed, for one of the greatest minds of the Enlightenment and Age of Reason to look London and Paris, and to look at how they had replicated themselves in New York, Philadelphia, Boston, New Orleans... and then look at an entire continent that was still marveling at the industrial potential of spears and fire... man, that Thomas Jefferson sure was an unwarranted asshole.
It's so wild that I can sit with my white friends and a race conversation is nothing like blacks talking. First of all, discussing what blacks have shown incapable of doing isn't seen as a pejorative, but a fact. Second, we don't feel the need to wantonly dump on blacks, and especially not to make ourselves feel better like blacks do, as we have no need to beat a topic that is easily observed by the mass of Africans fleeing black-ruled nations for white-ruled ones, and all the economic and social and infrastructural benefits that follow. Black resentment is deep.
tim in vermont,
"Bigots always think they are discussing simple facts that nobody wants to confront."
Whites,...calling blacks bigots?
SWEEEET,...
tim in vermont,
"Long story short, I like to discuss ideas. All ideas. That is what I am doing here engaging with you. It is not about hate on my side. I am just trying to get you to articulate your ideas more clearly, to understand them yourself. I am an old man now, this is what I like to do."
Good enough, tiv. But I understand my ideas just fine. What's to understand? Someone took something. Give it back. Doesn't matter if they're dead. Give it back.
A lot of talk for something so simple.
RecChief,
"What the hell is a black ethnic activity?"
How dumb can white people get?
Alexander,
"That really is unfair. Afterall, black minds brought us,..."
Oh goody! A white supremacist history lesson!! You know, where you list everything you THINK whites invented (because they say so, leaving out how three centuries of slavery worked, when whites would steal inventions) and trying to pretend whites created the modern world all by themselves. Always a fun endeavour. Whites get smaller with every lying word.
And the fun ends when they're asked to list all the black inventions they know of. To show us the worth of a white education. Then they talk gibberish about blacks never inventing anything - which is ludicrous - and their racism (which they're trying so hard to hide) is exposed.
Racists R Fun.
BTW - Granville T. Woods had 35 patents and successfully sued Thomas Edison for stealing his inventions. Because of racism, he sold most of his inventions to General Electric and The Bell Company (telephones).
"Man, that Thomas Jefferson sure was an unwarranted asshole."
That lying sadistic rapist, who even George Washington couldn't stand, spawned belly-crawling low-lifes like you, didn't he?
Alexander,
It's so wild that whites feel the need to defend themselves with lies.
Insecure are we about what you know and who you are?
Nobody worshipping whites enough?
All your lies coming apart?
Nobody likes you anymore?
George Washington also owned slaves. Why would you consider it a valuable point for your side that he didn't like Thomas Jefferson?
And again, observable history. Every day, Africans can't get into Europe fast enough. Every day, Zimbabwe takes another step backwards from where it was in 1950. Every day, we get idiots like you seriously arguing that slavery in 16th century Virginia stole the television or calculus from the black man while back on the home continent, there's a very real chance of millions of Africans dying of Ebola unless the white man whips up a miracle drug to save the day.
You can hate hate hate all you like, but your bitterness is clear for all to see.
Here's an ugly question for you: if blacks are so smart and so innovative, how is that you let yourselves be captured by Arabs and sold to the white man? How is it that in every single multicultural melange, in every single city on the planet... the Sub-saharans always come out at the bottom of the barrel? You guys can't even *feed* yourselves. No joke man, Nigeria's population has quadrupled since they kicked out the British, and they produce a fifth of the food they did at the time. And these same slum-dwellers I am to believe are the real brains behind western civilization? When socially, your cultures lack the survival skills of a cave man?
I get that your pissed. And like your cohorts in Ferguson, I get that cause-and-effect is a little beyond your level, and when angry you have little more to go on beyond 'feelings hurt, must fling shit and break things'. But you gotta realize that the time when white people would shuffle their feet awkwardly and defer to any damnfool thing that came out of your mouth has come to an end.
As an aside, it is with great sadness that I cannot claim any relation to that intellectual colossus of the Old Dominion. But then, wouldn't any "belly-crawling low-lifes" he spawned be half-black. Why you hating on the multicultural brothas, crack?
Black Privilege in America: having the gall to go up a white stranger in the street and say nothing more than, "Spare a $20?"
Black Privilege in America: Giving a sob story to a stranger about how hungry your kids are and when he offers to buy you three sandwiches from the Pita Pit, saying "eh... I'll eat it, but I don't like it. Let's go to the Broadway Diner instead?" Then trying to sneak in cokes and cookies on a combo order on the white man's dime.
Crack's got a couple of those longer "white" words in his lexicon, but the fundamental principle is the same: Whitey gotta pay for whatever I want.
Alexander,
I would like to point out to long-time readers how easily a talk about whites and blacks in America has now been shifted, by a white man trying to defend racism, to white's preferred terrain - blacks in Africa.
A continent American blacks have never been to (thanks to whites) that we know nothing about (thanks to whites) and that has no bearing on how whites treat blacks they are supposed to see as "fellow citizens" but racistly consider the enemy within (thanks to whites).
I've pointed this tactic out too many times before for it to be missed as a failed strategy - diversion from history (which this moron has no clue about) being their ONLY strategy.
One other thing - an observation after years of being here:
Blacks read history - and challenge it with scholarship - you know this.
Whites rarely do the work themselves (sound familiar?) but they go online and - after screaming how inferior we are - they beg blacks to explain white's lives to them. It's sad, man.
But also highly amusing.
You poor, poor ignorant things,...
Whites attack women, children, and veterans equally - as long as they're black.
Like I said, your so-called "patriotism" is a joke.
Just a bunch of lying, racist clowns,...
CRACK
"Oh goody! A white supremacist history lesson!! You know, where you list everything you THINK whites invented (because they say so, leaving out how three centuries of slavery worked, when whites would steal inventions) and trying to pretend whites created the modern world all by themselves. Always a fun endeavour. Whites get smaller with every lying word"
OK, I'll play. I will name five Europeans of note and then you name five Africans and we will keep playing until one of us runs out of names. Or, your call, we can list books. I should leave out philosophers since philosophy was stolen from Africans but I won't.
Aristotle, Seneca, Cicero, Plato, Homer.
I will spot you an African: Augustine of Hippo.
Name four.
Michael,
"I will name five Europeans of note and then you name five Africans,…"
For the last time, you idiots:
Blacks are AMERICANS.
Seriously - as often as you guys play this racial jujitsu on yourselves with Africa - one can only wonder:
What's wrong with you?
I figured out what's wrong with you - you're cruel.
Cracky,
I apologize - it seems that despite my admittedly low standards of your ability to comprehend the English language and make a rational counterpoint, I flew over your head. That was my privilege talking - I'll do my best to bring it down a level.
1. The point of referencing Africa is that it destroys your argument that supposedly, black slaves were the scientific and industrial engine of the New World. Unless by some freak genetic coincidence only supergeniuses were brought over to the new world, it's very damning that what these blacks supposedly accomplished on plantations throughout the southern United States was curiously not replicated within any culture from which they descended. However, I'm more than happy to go beyond Africa - not only have Africans failed at every endeavor of imitating white civilization in Africa (both pre and post European colonization); they failed in Haiti, and they continue to fail today in Detroit, in St. Louis, in Cleveland, in Chicago, in Washington, D.C. The list goes on: and so it seems improbable that blacks made any significant contribution to western civilization and the credit was simply stolen from them.
2. This really gets to point (3), but for your sake I'll address them in the order they came out in your post. If you 'know nothing' about Africa, that really is your own damn fault - especially if blacks supposedly read a lot of history and know their history. As for not going, who gives a shit - I'm sure most whites have not nor will ever visit their ancestral European home.
3. Given the literacy rates coming out of black-dominated schools and the fact that bookstores are somehow unique in being left alone during riots, I think there's a great question as to whether blacks are reading anything. And yeah, black "scholarship" translates to "Whitey, gimme sum mo' money". Color me shocked.
4. No one's begging you to do anything. And the idea that whites are historically lazy would be risible if it wasn't so laughable. But hey, you gotta bear your teeth and thump your chest, go for it.
Finally, I gotta ask - what's it like coming from a group that's perpetually under the shitpile? I understand now why you have to view history as being the "White Man's Fault", as if slavery and oppression of East Africans by white Europeans was some unique injustice in the entire book of humanity. Because man, if you had to come to terms with the fact that group X has been fighting and trying to dominate group Y since the beginning of time, and X and Y can belong to any group at any time... and then you had to confront the fact that you come from a line of descendants who got their shit kicked not only by white Europeans, but by the Arabs, the Semitics, the Turks, West Africans, and now increasingly it looks like the Chinese - hell, even the Hispatzlans are popping your peepz from Miami to Compton... I'd be pretty bitter too!
So have fun with it while you still can, yo!
Alexander,
" I flew over your head."
Love whites when they do the self-flattery thing. Comes in handy when no one else will say anything good about you.
And why should we? Whites who mention Haiti A) are too ignorant of history to know they're only shaming white people by bringing it up and B) are too dumb to be talked to intelligently.
Your understanding of America's history - regarding the cities - is just as bad. As ignorant as a white racist can get, really.
Blacks are flying right over YOUR head - and your racist "education." (Can it even be said whites are educated if they know nothing but lies?)
If you've got ANY scholarship to back up your assertions, please present it and it'll be acknowledged. If not, accept you're a racist fool and start behaving accordingly.
Actually, since you are, already:
Congrats,...
Alexander,
Such a proud white history you pointed to - sure, it's Haiti's fault they're not doing well - just like Africa:
[Haiti's] historic payment [to France for the loss of "their" slaves] was patently illegitimate, and, on several different scores, it was also illegal, according to a 2009 paper produced by the Institute for Justice & Democracy in Haiti.
Prior to independence, St Dominique – the country that is now Haiti – was France's most profitable colony, thanks in no small part to its particularly brutal system of slavery. In 1791, the slaves revolted, and in 1804, after defeating Napoleon's armies, founded the world's first black republic.
Following Haiti's independence, former French slave-owners submitted detailed tabulations of their losses to the French government, with line items for each of "their" slaves that had been "lost" with Haitian independence. In 1825, the French King, Charles X, demanded that Haiti pay an "independence debt" to compensate former colonists for the slaves who had won their freedom in the Haitian Revolution. With warships stationed along the Haitian coast backing up the French demand, France insisted that Haiti pay its former coloniser 150m gold francs – ten times the fledgling black nation's total annual revenues.
Under threat of a French military invasion that aimed at the re-enslavement of the population, the Haitian government had little choice but to agree to pay. Haiti's government was also forced to finance the debt through loans from a single French bank, which capitalised on its monopoly by gauging Haiti with exorbitant interest rates and fees.
The original sum of the indemnity was subsequently reduced, but Haiti still disbursed 90m gold francs to France. This second price the French exacted for the independence Haitians had won in battle was, even in 1825, not lawful. When the original indemnity was imposed by the French king, the slave trade was technically illegal; such a transaction – exchanging cash for human lives valued as slave labour – represented a gross violation of both French and international laws. And Haiti was still paying off this "independence debt" in 1947 – 140 years after the abolition of the slave trade and 85 years after the emancipation proclamation.This historic payment was patently illegitimate, and, on several different scores, it was also illegal, according to a 2009 paper produced by the Institute for Justice & Democracy in Haiti.
You read right:
Black slaves defeated Napoleon's army.
Stuff THAT in your white history books,...
And let's make sure you don't miss the point on American cities:
In the late 1940s, he writes, there was “one racially motivated bombing or arson” every twenty days.
In short, redlining forced blacks into particular areas and then starved those areas of affordable capital. Combined with widespread job discrimination—which barred blacks from public employment and forced them into low-wage labor—you had neighborhoods that were impoverished by design.
Ahh, white people and history:
They're safe as long as they never go near it,...
Alexander,
Since you're so hot on bringing up Africa, can you tell me the difference between the racial history and policies of Apartheid South Africa and America?
You've got 400 years to work with, so don't be shy,...
An entire nation of whites, lying to themselves:
Slavery’s story gets told in ways that reinforce [white] assumptions. Textbooks segregate twenty-five decades of enslavement into one chapter, painting a static picture. Millions of people each year visit plantation homes where guides blather on about furniture and silverware. As sites, such homes hide the real purpose of these places, which was to make African Americans toil under the hot sun for the profit of the rest of the world. All this is the “symbolic annihilation” of enslaved people, as two scholars of those weird places put it.2 Meanwhile, at other points we tell slavery’s story by heaping praise on those who escaped it through flight or death in rebellion, leaving the listener to wonder if those who didn’t flee or die somehow “accepted” slavery. And everyone who teaches about slavery knows a little dirty secret that reveals historians’ collective failure: many African-American students struggle with a sense of shame that most of their ancestors could not escape the suffering they experienced.
"25 decades of enslavement" and whites now want to be seen as nice people by those they enslaved.
And like they're not insane,...
Cut and paste "scholarship".
Dude, what is breaking news to you is not breaking news to everyone. The history of slavery in the US and the Caribbean is not something you can be conversant with in the year you have been interested and trolling the internet for bits to shock the Althouse commentariat. Reading actual books from their beginning to their end would be a good start and might impose some humility and improve your shamefully shallow take on an important topic. There is a tremendous amount of very good scholarship available, much of it written by white people, that you could learn from and which might improve your tiresome and poorly constructed "arguments."
Haiti got screwed 200 years ago, and paid for it up till the 1940s (Something doesn't quite add up there, once I note that the French cut the expected sum in half and almost a third of the total amount went out in the first payment, and they originally expected to pay it of in 30 years... I do wonder what went wrong. But I'll not disagree it was a shitty thing to do.)
Yet... Japan and Korea, who had their entire countries razed just two generations ago are not what we would call poverty stricken backwaters. Same goes for every European city between Bordeaux and Stalingrad. Hell, look at what the German reparations were in World War I, and yet they still found the time to build the infrastructure that terrify the world two decades later.
Same old story. Turns out black people don't have unique histories of oppression, war, disease, destruction, etc. etc... they just have some new outsider to blame their perpetual woes on. France did a shitty thing, but it's not the only shitty thing or the shittiest thing that's ever happened to a people, and yet the Japanese or the Dutch don't spend the next couple of centuries living in dumps.
News flash friend: if you're still blaming your nation's shithole status on events 200 years ago, or even 50 years ago, then maybe you really are a deviation or two behind the rest of human race.
And a friendly bit of advice: The French were beaten in Paris was occupied in 1871 and got the stuffing kicked out again in 1914 before being occupied again in 1941. A thinking man might have declared any of those to be good times to declare one's deb to France void due to their illegal nature, and enjoyed world apathy on the basis of a fait accompli. I'm surprised none of you thought of that, but I guess the idea of not just blindly obeying a dictat from the French is white priveledge?
Which is why you're the biggest racist of them all Crack, and not just against whites, but to blacks as well. You believe that blacks have so little capability that they have no agency over themselves, and that white people are inherently superior so as to be capable of holding blacks down indefinitely should we choose to do so. It's very sad.
As for South Africa and America - the key difference is that the Boers lost on his turf and we have yet to lose on ours. South Africa is a real eye opener though - you won't convince me that apartheid is a greater evil than genocide, which is where the Boers are heading.
The smart choice for the Boers would have been to screw the world's opinion and fight to the bitter end, and then demand a two state solution with a preliminary swapping of minority populations ala India/Pakistan once they racked up a high enough body count and/or bribed the Zulu against the Xhosa (and done it properly - give them a real package of territory, not the half-assed attempt they made the first time round).
But they didn't, and so they're on a stage 6 genocide watch - poor bastards.
And I know - you're absolutely hot to trot on the idea that the Boer is gonna get what's coming... all while you ignore that Turks massacred Greeks and Armenians, Mongols wiped out vast swathes of eastern Europe, Berbers happily pillaged the Mediterranean coast and the Han have been on a ruthless centuries-long assimilation of vast tracts of Asia... only the crimes of Europeans are worthy of the punishment of banishment from the human race.
Michael, please be kind. Our good friend Crack was denied the right to learn how to read, because white people. Cut and paste is the tool he's got - it would be privilege to deny it to him simply because you hold yourself to a slightly higher standard of argument.
Cracked: "Black slaves defeated Napoleon's army."
LOL
That would be Toussaint L'Ouverture who was captured by the French Expeditionary force sent by Napoleon, shipped back to France and died in a French prison.
So much for defeating Napoleon's army.
In Reality, L'Ouverture worked for the French in helping to dislodge Spain and Britain before the French allowed him to wield some local power.
But hey, whatever.
It's just history.
Of which Crack is ignorant.
Next up: Crack explains how blacks established the first Universities on the moons of Saturn which blacks colonized via black space travel.
A good book to read regarding some of the more hilarious black supremacist/afrocentrist revisionist historical nonsense is "Not Out Of Africa" by Mary Lefkowitz.
Talk about a liberal jewish professor who got mugged by the reality of the crack-ites!
In other news, black ladies of NYC forced a white couple out of their home at gun point, motivated by the fact they aren't keen on whitey moving into the area.
Apartheid for me but not for thee.
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