"Rule 12, Section 3, Article 1 (d) states 'players are prohibited from engaging in any celebrations or demonstrations while on the ground.' However, the officiating mechanic in this situation is not to flag a player who goes to the ground as part of religious expression, and as a result, there should have been no penalty on the play."No sect preference. It's a very basic American rule of religion and
And don't tell me Tebow only got 1 so Abdullah shouldn't get 2. We're not counting knees here. We're getting to equivalence in parallel religious expression. It only gets complicated when some nonreligious showboat flops down on his knees in a clownish celebration.
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They used to say "NFL" stood for "No Fun League" because it banned all kinds of celebrations in the end zone. Maybe it stands for "No Fidelity League"?
As a Christian, I 100% agree with you, Ann. Players should be able to make whatever kind of religious gesture they want. Except, no animal sacrifices. There are limits.
I have to say, equality under the rules applies here.
If the Lord has a problem with the religion being expressed, He knows who to drop the goalpost on.
Stupid penalty in a week full of them.
I don;t watch football to admire the work of the referees, but I seem to see more of them these days than actual plays.
I'm not thrilled with a lot of the more stupid recent NFL rules--particularly the "no celebrating" and "no taunting" rules. Those are stupid and take away from some of the spectacle of the game.
Rules designed to reduce injuries I'm fine with, as it seems there are too many injuries in the sport today--the use of so much padding and the massive increase in size of the players makes hitting far harder and creates a lot more of a chance of a serious injury. I still don't understand why the League hasn't banned long hair (which can be accidentally pulled during a tackle) or artificial turf (which is far harder to land on).
Prayers? Treat them all the same.
Except that Tebow's co-religionists won't post your execution video on YouTube for making fun of him.
I'm with Tom Landry on this one (and all others, for that matter): "When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."
Does the NFL now forbid worship on the field? Maybe that means they cannot compete with real religions
Johnny Mansel got himself fined for shooting the bird at the other team. So secular celebrations of Olympic goddess of Victory is also forbidden.
NFL means No Fun League.
I just don't know if the official recognized what this guy was doing. And he slid into the prayer, which I imagine isn't the typical way people of any religion start off their prayer, so it may have been confusing.
The NFL would definitely suspend King Leonidas of the 300 Spartans for taunting the God king of the Persians, Xerxes.
No taunting means it is a no fun league.
except Tebow was mocked, adn there was much handwringing about him bringing religion into football.
but since Christians are unlikely to cut your head off, I guess this explains why there isn't the same handwringing regarding Abdullah's display.
Personally, I odn't care, Hockey season is about to start.
I believe they've already walked this one back.
The problem with all "Abdullah" (Meaning slave of Islam's Allah) is that they belong to a criminal-terrorist movement as is at war with the USA. Please see Article-III of the USA's Constitution, Section-3 for further information.
Speaking of god worship styles, the Muslim's god insists on total prostrate submission done face first,never looking up while the guy chants his list of lies aloud.
That's why they all carry a clean prayer rug around. The floors smell bad.
It's been a while since I've been to a live NFL game, but don't (some, not all) players from both teams usually have some sort of "prayer circle" on the 50 yardline after the game? I guess that's different because the game is over and cameras aren't watching.
@Lauderdale Vet That's at the link.
I think it is OK, unless his prayin gives him a concussion. I've seen too many Muslim men with prayer scars. Did the Chiefs follow the NFL concussion protocols? Was he facing Mecca?
"When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."
-Tom Landry as quoted by furious.
That says it all.
As the baseball playoffs begin, I'm reminded of an entire team (I believe it was the Angels) a few years back who lost a playoff series and gamely and honorably congratulated the winning team, each player shaking hands with their opponents.
You won't see that again in this age.
At the end of the Packers/Bears game, I saw players from opposing teams hanging out talking to each other as if they were social friends. The 2 quarterbacks and 2 other corresponding players were shown on camera behaving with mutual respect like amiable professionals.
The other Packers player was Clay Matthews, the linebacker. Don't know who the Bear was.
I call bullshit on the article. It include two videos from the play: The interception, continuing most of the way to the endzone, and him stopped in the endzone on his knees, bending his head to the ground.
Neatly edited out was the behavior that earned him the penalty: sliding on his knees across the endzone.
I'm pretty sure that if Tebow included such a slide he would be penalized too.
If you are going to have a rule against showboating, this play deserved it.
Dotting opposing players with a fastball is such a honorable "unwritten" tradition in baseball.
"Don't you disrespect me, asshole!"
Nick Collins of the Packers got exactly the same penalty in the Super Bowl after he returned an interception for a touchdown.
One is the religion of the culture that is (or was) the moral underpinning of the United States in particular and its Western heritage in general, the other is a loony psychopathic death cult founded by a murderous and pedophilic salesmen who worshiped space rocks whos followers are bent on beheading the infidel until he accepts the shackles of dhimmitude and the annihilation of his people and culture.
Moral equivalents, I tell ya.
Until we are able to win the cultural battle on the football fields of Kansas City, it is lunacy to think we will win it on the battle fields of Baghdad.
Neatly edited out was the behavior that earned him the penalty: sliding on his knees across the endzone.
I have to agree this looks like showboating, or rather showtunes, because I swear they do that slide in footloose.
So why are we all so upset about the lack of reaction to domestic violence? That strikes me as clownish to expect an organization that sells violence to deal with things like this?
"At the end of the Packers/Bears game, I saw players from opposing teams hanging out talking to each other as if they were social friends. The 2 quarterbacks and 2 other corresponding players were shown on camera behaving with mutual respect like amiable professionals."
Nothing makes me angrier as a fan to see that stuff. When the Broncos play the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers everyone on the other team is the enemy. I want the players on my ream to hate the other guys as much or more as I do.
Bingo, the slide was the infraction. Tebow would draw the flag for that kind of showboating, too.
Now if only this guy received as much criticism for praying as Tebow...
Ann Althouse said...It only gets complicated when some nonreligious showboat flops down on his knees in a clownish celebration.
Not sure if trolling or serious...
Striking a religious pose = valid expression, but strking a pose when nonreligious = clownish celebration by a showboat? Seems like it's showboating in both cases, no? Tebow wasn't big on Matthew 6:5, but that's his deal.
Anyway the rule should certainly be applied equivalently, but the easiest way to do that is to enforce it against any expression that goes to the ground. I would not have objected to Tebow being penalized for his kneeling (and not just, you know, 'cause of Florida).
Religious or not, why should it matter? If a wideout wants to do cartwheels after scoring a touchdown, let him. If those cartwheels are an homage to some Aztec god, fine. How does any of this hurt the sport?
Now, an animal sacrifice in the end zone to thank Inca for granting the power to gain yardage, that's a more complicated story.
the slide caught the penalty, not the prayer.
I think that the people who mocked Tebow so mercilessly should have the guts to mock Abdullah in the same way.
Won't happen.
And the penalty is bullshit.
Was he facing towards Mecca?
Will he be penalized if he beheads the opponents quarterback?
Was he facing towards Mecca?
Had he removed his shoes and performed the ceremonial ablutions before making his prayers?
The obvious response is that of course the NFL can ban Muslim expression if it so chooses, like any other private organization. They will then suffer the bouquets or arrows of their customers' reaction to this.
Of course it's safer (less controversial) just to ban any religious expression. So they will.
Next tempest in a teapot, please.
He was not penalized for going down on two knees to pray!
He was penalized for the slide, which was (correctly) seen as celebration. That's what the player said he assumed. That's what the refs told the coach at the time. That's what happened.
Now we get the PC walkback.
"The obvious response is that of course the NFL can ban Muslim expression if it so chooses, like any other private organization."
It's not really obvious. The Civil Rights Act bans employers from discriminating based upon religion. You could argue that this is not the sort of thing that the Civil Rights Act covers, but it is certainly not obvious that the Act doesn's apply. For example, what if Abdullah were fined by the NFL for kneeling? Wouldn't his religious identity affect his compensation?
Wilbur said...The obvious response is that of course the NFL can ban Muslim expression if it so chooses, like any other private organization.
Hey, that's true! It's not too dissimilar to the way the Prof addressed objections to unfairness in college disciplinary rules/proceedings--she correctly pointed out that university tribunals aren't courts of law and can make and enforce their own rules since students voluntarily choose to attend.
When Althouse here says "We're getting to equivalence in parallel religious expression" it therefore follows that she's likely talking only about what the correct moral value should be and not what the law as such requires. Seems like under these circumstances the NFL could have a rule against two knee celebrations even though it's unfair, and the Prof. shouldn't object since it's the NFL's rule.
But maybe things are different when we're talking about the 1st Amendment, I dunno. If so it seems like college guys should plead a special expressive right to have an attorney at their hearings, or something.
m stone said...
"When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."
-Tom Landry as quoted by furious.
That says it all.
As the baseball playoffs begin, I'm reminded of an entire team (I believe it was the Angels) a few years back who lost a playoff series and gamely and honorably congratulated the winning team, each player shaking hands with their opponents.
You won't see that again in this age.
You see it at the conclusion of every NHL playoff series. All 4 rounds.
The rule of thumb when dealing with Christians or Muslims should be "would I feel any different if the Christians here were actually Muslims and vice versa". If the Hobby Lobby owners were Muslims who didn't want to fund certain types of birth control because of their religion, your opinion should be no different than it was when they were Christians. Likewise with building a church or a mosque in your town, or seeing people pray in public.
Classy athletes don't showboat, but I would prefer that they all be allowed to do so--this draws more attention to the classy ones like Barry Sanders who after every touchdown just hands the ball back to the ref. And he was probably the best running back of his era, only failing to get to the Super Bowl because he was on the Lions.
Well I was at the game and can answer the question that some have asked.
He was headed East, and slanted very slightly to his right. So yes, he was indeed facing Mecca!
I want the players on my ream to hate the other guys as much or more as I do.
I don't know how much reaming I can watch on a Sunday afternoon.
"Rule 12, Section 3, Article 1 (d) states 'players are prohibited from engaging in any celebrations or demonstrations while on the ground.'
No wonder they are leaping in the air all the time. Read literally, that's a very restrictive rule.
Bringing in drones might make football interesting again.
Did you ever see the bare limbs of those cheerleaders? And bare midriffs too. What kind of pious Muslim exhibits his faith in such an environment? There is so much about pro football that is irreconcilable with the Muslim faith. A Muslim doesn't honor Allah by embracing a pigskin.
Classy athletes don't showboat.
Jim Brown never danced in the end-zone. Bob Lilly never pounded his chest after a sack.
Matt, you raise very good questions. I haven't looked at the Civil Rights Act or laws in general in (too) many years.
Briefly, I would suggest this might be analogous to an entertainment business, like TV or movies. The entertainers themselves wouldn't have the right to inject something of a religious nature into a performance which the employer or the audience found objectionable
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser"
Vince Lombardi
furious_a: "Jim Brown never danced in the end-zone. Bob Lilly never pounded his chest after a sack"
I don't disagree with any of that, but this is a vastly different era, with a vastly different NFL with a vastly different entertainment consciousness.
And a lot more $$$$ tied up in that entertainment.
For me, the real problem is that the NFL is waaaaaaay to strict about "excessive celebration" and other similar penalties.
Here's a very similar situation with Nick Collins in the Super Bowl a few years ago. The NFL is really splitting hairs here by saying one is okay because it's a religious expression, and the other is not. How can the refs on the field really know?
traditionalguy said...
...the Muslim's god...
Al Bundi?
Brando said...
The rule of thumb when dealing with Christians or Muslims should be "would I feel any different if the Christians here were actually Muslims and vice versa".
Sorta like "all societies are equivalent", which is also BS.
The answer is "yes".
If the Hobby Lobby owners were Muslims who didn't want to fund certain types of birth control because of their religion, your opinion should be no different than it was when they were Christians.
Thanks for telling me what my opinions should be!
Muslims claim I should be killed, and Christians don't, so if the Hobby Lobby owners were Muslims I'd never buy anything there regardless of any other opinions expressed.
I have no idea what "the officiating mechanic" is that's referred to in this quote. Maybe the writer means "the normal officiating practice."
But the First Amendment is something that binds Congress and the federal government, and (through the Fourteenth Amendment) state governments and their various governmental units. The NFL isn't bound by the First Amendment.
"Free exercise of religion" is neither written into nor paraphrased in Rule 12 regarding "Player Conduct" (which includes the rules against unsportsmanlike conduct, including excessive celebration, in section 3, article 1.
I think the 'End Zone' quote is more properly attributed to Paul 'Bear' Bryant.
How about not discriminating against the non-religious celebrations. Jimmy Graham's goal post dunks are fun to watch. Silly that the NFL banned them.
Ferdinande--far be it from me to tell you how you should think--you have every right to hate Muslims. I'm simply stating what our civil rights laws require (where they apply, of course). You have decided that "Muslims want you dead" and I guess you must have met a number of Muslims who feel that way, and not assuming that a small number of extremists speak for a billion people. Whatever your basis for believing that, it is your right--but if you run an organization covered by the Civil Rights Act and decide to discriminate against Muslims based on those beliefs, good luck using that reasoning to defend your antidiscrimination suit.
Whether the NFL itself is covered I don't know, but if say IBM allowed its Christian employees to do a daily prayer and prohibited the same for its Muslim employees, you'd see a class action so fast you wouldn't know what hit them.
The NFL rules on celebrating in the end zone states no sliding with both legs. He slid with both legs. Therefore: penalty. Religion has nothing to do with it. Media is making it a religious issue.
How about a pool for best comment?
my picks:
richlb said...Will he be penalized if he beheads the opponents quarterback? 9/30/14, 1:34 PM
William said...Did you ever see the bare limbs of those cheerleaders? And bare midriffs too. What kind of pious Muslim exhibits his faith in such an environment? There is so much about pro football that is irreconcilable with the Muslim faith. A Muslim doesn't honor Allah by embracing a pigskin. 9/30/14, 5:22 PM
(last sentence makes this a contender)
Brando said...
Ferdinande[sic]--far be it from me to tell you how you should think--you have every right to hate Muslims.
Now you are contradicting yourself: "your opinion should be no different".
I'm simply stating what our civil rights laws require (where they apply, of course).
They don't apply, fortunately.
You have decided that "Muslims want you dead" and I guess you must have met a number of Muslims who feel that way, and not assuming that a small number of extremists speak for a billion people.
Your numbers are backwards.
Whatever your basis for believing that,
Their statements, their actions and their goofy handbook, none of which are repudiated by those imaginary "billions".
...but if say IBM allowed its Christian employees to do a daily prayer and prohibited the same for its Muslim employees, you'd see a class action so fast you wouldn't know what hit them.
Yes, the US has some oppressive laws which unnecessarily restrict the freedoms of private individuals and enable common criminals. And I'd know quite well "what hit them": a bogus lawsuit.
Tim Teebow was mocked incessantly by lefties for praying during games. Are they going to do the same when a Muslim prays at a game? Or would that be hate speech?
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