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१४९ टिप्पण्या:
I'd think we were back in the American South, almost any time after the Civil War, and whites aren't happy about the result.
But the question is what would I do? The same thing blacks did:
Learn to shoot,...
My sample is small, I admit, but it is my own experience not some talking heads. I have worked with three Palestinians and found them all to be distasteful. Each lied to me. Each tried to subvert me. One returned to Palestine to marry a twelve year old whom his brother had already married in his stead.
Overwhelming force destroying the infrastructure and personnel that supports these attacks on Israel underlined by the sad acceptance involving collateral damage among the civilians. Eradicate Hamas and prepare for the next iteration of Middle East terrorists taking Hamas' place. Side note to Hollywood celebs signing petitions condemning Israel while supporting Hamas; into the closed and history deficient Hollywood elite mouth the bug does not fly. Netanyahu's advice to Obama is short and pithy; "Don't second guess us again!"
Hey John Kerry is going to straighten things out. He was VietNam you know.
Ever notice when casualties are listed Israel says " x' number of IDF soldiers and "x" number of civilians versus Hamas says "x" number died and we are all led to belive these are all innocent civilians?
How is it that we never see Israelis run for shelter in the Israeli made bomb shelters (boring, boring video for TV news folks, I know) but we never see that in Gaza? Oh yeah, maybe because it suits the purpose of Hamas to have their civilians die?
So, let's negotiate with a group that will say whatever they need to make the idiots in the west think that Hamas wants to negotiate and when the ink seems ALMOST dry on another cease fire they say whoops did you see our added footnote #1? "All Jews must die".
And then Israel gets skewered when they "quote listen in" on Kerry's phone call but not one major news outlet mentions that the idiot Secretary of State used regular cell phones and not secure lines.
Negotiate we must, but let's not kid ourselves about who we are negotiating with.
Just as an aside, have you heard of ANY arrests of ANY Hamas folks for the death of the 3 teenagers that were randomly killed? In contrast, there have been 6 arrests for the burning of the Palestinian boy that was burned. The court case is proceeding.
Only sane answer: wipe him out before he completes that task and moves on to the next target. Then, level the aggressor's house to a vacant lot, to discourage future attempts.
The nice thing about Israeli Leftists is that they are not complete idiots. I suspect that part of that realism comes from having parents that either survived the Holocaust, or were born under Sharia.
The other part comes from time in the IDF.
In the US, we have a somewhat muted version. Liberal Jews can be liberal, but many still display some level of realism, that there are bad people in the world. Dershowitz is the best example, followed by Feinstein, Harman, Lieberman, and even Shumer (on some issues). Boxer? a complete idiot.
Reducing the Israel/Palestine conflict to a simplistic hypothetical about "your neighbor shooting at you from across the street as he sits with a child on his lap" or "your neighbor digging a tunnel to your house to kidnap your children or blow up your home" hardly illuminates the complex reality, and serves only to distort it into a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy, even if the person making this reductionist analogy is purportedly in favor of an equitable two-state solution. Such simplistic reduction of reality to morality play inflames passion for war and killing throughout the world and human history. It always comes down to "we're right/they're wrong," no matter who tells the tale.
I recall Amoz Oz recounting his 67 war experiences in an NPR interview.
At the start of the war, he was deployed on a hill near the border with Egypt. The Egyptians were on an nearby hill and presently they set up a mortar and started shooting.
Oz recalled thinking "Those people are crazy, they're going to hurt someone with that thing. Someone should call the police!"
He added that that was his civilian self thinking. It didn't take him long to get into the spirit of things.
Robert Cook said...
Reducing the Israel/Palestine conflict to a simplistic hypothetical about "your neighbor shooting at you from across the street as he sits with a child on his lap" or "your neighbor digging a tunnel to your house to kidnap your children or blow up your home" hardly illuminates the complex reality, and serves only to distort it into a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy, even if the person making this reductionist analogy is purportedly in favor of an equitable two-state solution. Such simplistic reduction of reality to morality play inflames passion for war and killing throughout the world and human history. It always comes down to "we're right/they're wrong," no matter who tells the tale.
Wrong. Some things are simple. When Hamas is lobbing hundreds of bombs into civilian areas and kidnapping your children for money or torture, Israel has to defend itself. Some things are actually simple. There is evil in the world and it must be addressed.
The real question is: What would you do if a self-righteous dipshit from a different neighborhood decided to show up and lecture you on why the neighbor is shooting.
Rubble doesn't make trouble.
A Palestinian immigrant that I know admitted to me that Palestinians are treated better by Jews than by Arabs. They are not beloved in the Arab world, they are used to foil the Jews.
Another Palestinian-American I know insisted that Palestine does exist. He claimed to have a map. It was the map of Israel.
Hey Crack, you know Blacks are not really loved by .... oh, nevermind!
Reducing the Israel/Palestine conflict to a simplistic hypothetical about "your neighbor shooting at you from across the street as he sits with a child on his lap" or "your neighbor digging a tunnel to your house to kidnap your children or blow up your home" hardly illuminates the complex reality, and serves only to distort it into a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy
It actually is a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy, obvious to anyone other than pretentious assholes. Israel wants to live in peace, Hamas is explicitly committed to killing Jews. Faux-humanitarian assholes like Robert Cook are always okay with killing Jews, so they pretend that this issue is somehow complex, but it isn't.
Oz thinks Israel can make peace with the PA by recognizing and aiding a Palestinian state on the West Bank, and he blames Netanyahu for not pursuing that path. In other words, he's a peacenik. Yet even he sees the reasons for Israel's current actions in Gaza. I thank God this isn't my problem.
Interesting that Crack thinks black people after the civil war equivalent to what Hamas is doing.
You mean Israel is back in the 'American South' about the time of the Civil War Crack?
Didn't know they had slavery there.
But as for the rest of us folk, Israel is in a life or death struggle with Hammas and as far as I am concerned they can do what we did in WW1 (gas, box barrages) or WW2 (carpet bomb) Hammas back into the stone age.
For morally Hammas is already in the stone age, might as well make it in reality.
Anybody opposing Israel hates Hews.
This isn't hyperbole. It is fact here. They've done everything possible for peace and they've had rockets fired at them constantly for it.
The Left's criticism is simply a manifestation of their hatred of Judeo-Christian values as a whole.
The author of that article is evil. He "disapproves" of an antisemitic murdering Nazi like Khalid, and can't see anyone decent on the Israeli side ("an honest voice") except Oz, the farthest peacenik there is. "Oz is careful to distinguish between Hamas and the Palestinian civilians who are victims." Except that they wholeheartedly support Hamas. I respect Oz's right to his position, but this is evil. If the other side has people like Khalid, is _run_ by people like Khalid, why isn't it obvious that much more extreme (/moderate!) positions then become justified in Israel? If the other side wants to murder you, you don't have to respect their rights.
Ever notice with all the endless supply of footage from Gaza aired continuously world wide nowhere do you see a rocket being launched, or a Hamas militant.
You kinda get the impression the Israel is at war with Palestinian children, and Hamas only exists in the heads of Israelis.
Robert Cook: "{The supposedly simplistic hypothetical} hardly illuminates the complex reality, and serves only to distort it into a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy, even if the person making this reductionist analogy is purportedly in favor of an equitable two-state solution."
First of all, Cook, it's a metaphor. It's not hypothetical.
That said, an equitable two state solution is a lovely idea! Why hasn't someone implemented this yet?
Could it be that (1) arguably Israel is the only true "state" and the Palestinians (while they occupy territory) function as much like a group of armed tribes as a state or (2) to the extent that the Palestinians can act like a state, they are not committed to an "equitable two state solution."
You can't have an "equitable two state solution" where one of the "states" is committed to the destruction of the other.
There is precedent in other Arab states (e.g. Jordan), where aggressive groups (e.g. PLO) were forced out at the end of a gun.
Actually, the precedent was set in Israel itself, shortly after its establishment, where Jews, Christians, and moderate Muslims opposed the armed forces of neighboring Arab and Muslim regimes.
"What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?"
*nasal whine* We'd have to ask ourselves why he hates us...*snivel*
If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do? Why, drop a 4000 lb bomb on it and blow everyone up. That's what a moral government would do.
There's no question the Israelis are in a tough spot--as we would be if Mexican extremists were shooting rockets over the border at populated U.S. areas and trying to sneak terrorists into our country to blow more things up. There's little they can do about it that won't result in more civilian deaths, and it's unlikely they can achieve anything more than a few years of lull before the next escalation.
How they can end this cycle--short of some great atrocity--is anyone's guess, as they would need a good faith partner on the other side in order to trade concessions and police that area. They haven't had that. Completely occupying and running those territories would be an expensive and fruitless project, and completely abandoning them wouldn't change things from where they are now--they'd still be dealing with attacks from there, until some legitimate government were in place to prevent them.
All the more reason we shouldn't be involved in this--it's a mess and we're not equipped to tell them what they should do. Nor should be be bankrolling any of this--it only gets us blame for something we have no control over. Let Israel deal with this as an independent country and not our client. They're the ones who have to live with whatever they do about this.
We've got our own border crisis--it's a little rich for us to tell others how to deal with their own.
But the question is what would I do? The same thing blacks did:
Ellos deben abandonar a sus hijos, las iglesias, la dignidad y la libertad económica para las tarjetas EBT y teléfonos celulares baratos?
But the question is what would I do? The same thing blacks did:
Learn to shoot,...
Otras personas de raza negra?
@Robert Cook,
Unfortunately, it really is that simple. Any war is dirty and awful, and interstate conflict over decades even moreso. The simple fact of the matter however, is that if you remove every Israeli from Palestine, it looks a lot like ISIS-controlled Syria, and if you remove all Palestinians, it looks a lot like California. There are many crimes on both sides, but only one side has a legitimate goal.
There is precedent, in the Middle East, South Africa, but Israelis do not engage in indiscriminate killing to achieve political goals.
Robert Cook did all our work toward moral equivalency. If anybody wants free stuff, feel free to take Robert Cook's things.
Freedom Isn't Free
What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom?
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little pussy?
'Cause the only reason that you're here
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass
Freedom isn't free, it costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in, we'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free, now there's a hefty fuckin' fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five, who will?
The West has forgotten what it means to fight wars to win.
The Union knew how to do it in the Civil War and flattened the South, so did the Allies in WWII.
Joan Rivers has been more eloquent on this subject than any American politician, though Clinton actually stood up and made the right noises yesterday.
The Chaldeans claim that they were the original inhabitants of Mesopotamia. At any rate, their Aramaic language is the root tongue of both Hebrew and Arab. They are Christians and have been since about the third century CE. They are now refugees. They had the bad luck to live in an area controlled by ISIS. Over five hundred thousand are currently refugees and an indeterminate number have been murdered......I don't think that there's much of a chance that they will regain their homes. I also don't think that there's much of a chance that they will reman refugees for the next three generations or that any Muslim regime will subsidize their displacement camps for the next sixty years. Perhaps Kevin Costner will make a Dances With Chaldeans movie about an indigenous minority with a peaceable religion who get hunted down by rapacious invaders......Fat chance. Chaldeans are technically victims but they're being oppressed by the wrong majority. You're not really a victim unless you're oppressed by a bourgeoise white man. In Germany, for example, Jews are allowed victim status because their oppressors are white. But such status is not available to them in the Middle East. Those hundreds of thousands of Jews who had lived in Baghdad since the Babylonian captivity and who were made to flee their homes don't get the same victim status as Palestinians. Although the Bath party was modeled after the Nazis, they're not really Nazi Nazis because they're not white.
It always comes down to "we're right/they're wrong," no matter who tells the tale.
True. but I find it much easier to believe that the side that is trying to prevent innocent deaths and is using it's weapons to shield their civilians is probably right, and the side deliberately targeting enemy civilians and using their own people as shields for their weapons is probably wrong.
Hey Cookie:
You can be as even-handed as you wish, but Hamas and all their buddies already know how they feel about the USA amd Americans in general. But fee free to Rachel Corrie yourself if that's your bag.
Robert Cook did not like the analogy, but he didn't explain why it isn't a good one. Tell us, Robert Cook, what's wrong with the analogy. Don't just reject it because it is uncongenial.
Interesting factoid that I saw yesterday - statistically, the more you know about what is actually happening in Gaza, the more likely you are to support Israel. Much of the Hamas support in this country is from ultra LIVs. And, yes, some from reflexive progressives like Cook.
In WWII, Germany was 99.9 percent of the asshole who started it and really wanted to have a war, therefore, it was pretty easy for everyone to blame them.
Hamas vs. Israel is probably a 60-40 split. I'll side with the group that is only 40 percent asshole, while the Progs apparently think that the 60 percent group are victims because they get their ass kicked when it comes down to real fighting, but are able to spin a pretty good on the PR front.
Robert Cook said...
Reducing the Israel/Palestine conflict to a simplistic hypothetical about "your neighbor shooting at you from across the street as he sits with a child on his lap" or "your neighbor digging a tunnel to your house to kidnap your children or blow up your home" hardly illuminates the complex reality, and serves only to distort it into a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy, even if the person making this reductionist analogy is purportedly in favor of an equitable two-state solution. Such simplistic reduction of reality to morality play inflames passion for war and killing throughout the world and human history. It always comes down to "we're right/they're wrong," no matter who tells the tale.
8/4/14, 7:39 AM
I know reality is tough for you but it really is that simple. The Arabs started this war and expect the Israeli's to play by their rules which is sit still so I can kill you but in the meantime give me a job and provide me with aid. The Israeli's aren't going along with that. The Palestinians can have peace any time they choose but not on their terms.
If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do?
Hands up if you think Garage actually has any clue about the scope of the threat posed by terrorists with rocket launchers that hide out in hospitals.
Okay, that's....no-one. Because Garage is okay making shit up if it makes Jews look bad.
Shocking that he's a leftist parrot.
garage mahal said...
If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do? Why, drop a 4000 lb bomb on it and blow everyone up. That's what a moral government would do.
8/4/14, 9:10 AM
Excellent idea. Next time another lone gunman starts shooting from another hospital the hospital security guards will kill him on the spot. A moral government does what it can to spare the lives of its citizens and not concern itself with the lives of the enemy especially when the enemy values the lives of their citizens so little that it deliberately puts them in harms way. Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza to be their government and they are getting what they deserve.
@ Brando speaking of cutting off funding lets start with cutting off funding by our government to Hamas directly and indirectly by funding the UN.
The answer seems straightforward to me as a Westerner. Fire back.
What would you do, Robert Cook?
When Israel eliminates Hamas from the Gaza strip the Palestian people will greet them as liberators.
damikesc said, "Anybody opposing Israel hates Hews [sic]."
Don't judge what you perceive to be their thoughts. You may be wrong. Maybe they love Jews.
But judge their actions. The UN is behaving like a terrorist-sympathizer. Many of the governments in Europe are doing likewise.
We should be careful in dealing with these threats, but we should be ruthless when we deal. Idiots like Kerry should be drummed out of office. Hamas should be bombed out of existence.
Many on the left think "negotiating" is all about "talking". It's not. It's about who has the upper hand, and how to play the hand you've got.
We have an incompetent national government in the USA right now. Maybe Obama and Kerry really do love Israel; I don't know and I don't care. They behave as though they hate Israel. Their behavior should guide our actions. Get them out of office; replace them with people who have a clue.
Here's my advice to Israel, from a nobody whom no one listens to:
Keep the war going on for long enough that it drops off the front page. Media coverage has to move on eventually. World media is geared for a war of less than a month. Outlast them. Make the propaganda machine pay a price. Make them lose audience out of boredom. Cost them money.
Conversations with Crack....
Me: Hey Crack, did you see the new movie, Guardians of the Galaxy that came out this weekend? It was awesome!
Crack: Yeah. Awesome. Reminded me of slavery and how blacks get treated in the United States. Awesome, right?
Me: Uhhhh, what? I mean the movie, Gaurdians of the Galaxy, it's a marvel super hero movie.
Crack: Yeah, notice how none of them are black? That's because only bad guys are black, or in this case, some other color but they mean them to be black. Because you're an ignorant racist.
Me: Alright fine, forget it. Did I tell you about the sale Walmart is having on laptops? Pretty good sale.
Crack: Walmart reminds me of slavery in the south. They pay their employees nothing, just like they paid slaves nothing. And you wonder why I hate you so much.
Me: wtf? Fine, no walmart, no movies. I was thinking of taking my kids to Disney World in January, they have the free meal plan deal back. Surely that's a good thing, right?
Crack: Disney World?! Are you joking? The happiest place on earth? Try the most racist place on earth. Exactly like the south during Jim Crow. Exactly. And all you whites walk around the park with your heads up your asses, not thinking about blacks, but thinking about fun and silliness when there are real issues to address!
Me: Ugh.
We live in an interesting time in which the simple concept of self defense is hotly debated and the borders of the Country are ephemeral.
Preserve, protect and defend?
ISIS is posting war crimes on the internet. They're massacring thousands of people on camera and there's no coverage in Western media. Why?
I don't hear any progressives condemning ISIS. I'm sure, if asked, they will give a pro forma answer, right before they go back to condemning Israel. Far more people are dying in Iraq and Syria than Gaza, and yet Gaza is top news every day.
Unknown: Interesting that Crack thinks black people after the civil war equivalent to what Hamas is doing.
I am no fan of Crack and his one-track mind, but he was clearly associating postbellum whites with Hamas.
Major premise: Jews are white people.
Minor premise: Crack hates white people, generalizing and stereotyping white people all the time.
Conclusion: Cracks hates Jews.
Hamas is looking more and more like the weak horse. That is why Israel's assault is not being seriously opposed by its neighbors that want it to go forward. There is no opposition other than by Iran and Obama's consiglieri Jarrett who seem to be still stuck on the old " being anti-Israel pleases Arabs" message.
The other Arabs fear Hamas' and Isis' Caliphate explosion gaining ground among radical Sunnis more than they hate a few Jews. It is now a proxy war between Iran supporting Isis and Hamas on one side and the House of Saud supporting Israel's work that the pre-Obama USA once did for the Saudis...work that must soon include dealing with Iran's nuclear weapons system.
Robert Cook reduces things to a healthy postmodern "there is no right and wrong. So let's let them kill some more Jews."
At several junctures in the last forty-seven years the Palestinians could have obtained the terms Amos Oz advocates-- all that was asked of them is that they lay down their arms and recognize the state of Israel. Every time, the Palestinian parties refused, swearing instead to continue their attempted genocide of the Jews. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
I know the answer. You take the little boy to the nursery, go back, take the machine gun to the nursery, take the little boy back, take the neighbor to the nursery, go back, and then take the little boy back to the nursery.
Israeli riddles are fun!
I want Israel to kill every thug inside Hamas. I couldn't be more of a pro-Israel hawk. But--and I promise I'm not trolling here--doesn't anybody else have a problem with Israel firing missiles near the UN shelter yesterday, to get at three dudes on a motorcycle?
If there's a rocket launcher next door, I still don't like it but I can understand it. But a motorcycle?
Israel herself has pledged to avoid, whenever possible, civilian casualties. Yesterday was somehow different for me from previous incidents; I felt the IDF had stopped trying. I hope it was a mistake (and that the IDF owns up to it) and not a "let's bag some more Hamas bad guys before Netanyahu orders us to bug outta here" impulse.
I find very little to criticize about Israel's prosecution of this war (as ghastly as the civilian toll has been), but I think yesterday's incident was beyond the pale.
-IN RE JIHADII CAEDITE EOS NEVIT ENIM DOMINUS QUI SUNT ELUS
"garage mahal" thinks Israel is using FOUR THOUSAND POUND bombs against Hamas!
The Tomahawk cruise missile, by way of comparison, has a total weight of 2900 pounds and a deliverable payload of 1000 pounds.
Newsflash for "garage mahal":
You know nothing useful.
Excellent idea. Next time another lone gunman starts shooting from another hospital the hospital security guards will kill him on the spot
Why not level the whole hospital, just to make sure? The gunman is capable of killing more than 21 civilians, the same amount of Israelis that have been killed by Hamas rockets the past 15 years. More rubble less trouble!
Actually, I think Crack is comparing the Israelis to the blacks after the civil war. He would learn to shoot back.
The reason Leftists like "garage mahal" lie about warfare -- beyond the obvious answer of ignorance -- is a base desire to cast Israelis/Jews as the oppressor.
Meanwhile, Hamas forces children to be human shields at gunpoint and then acts horrified that children are dead. And Hamas forces children to dig tunnels in which more than a hundred children die. And Hamas steals the resources available to Gaza without concern for the deprivation they cause. And Hamas threatens reporters with real violence.
Meanwhile, Hamas forces children to be human shields at gunpoint and then acts horrified that children are dead
Again, child human shields aren't much of a shield against bombs are they? I'm sure we track terrorists in the U.S. every day - why don't we bomb them wherever they are as Israel does?
If there's a rocket launcher next door, I still don't like it but I can understand it. But a motorcycle?
It may well have been a mistake, which is both unfortunate and inevitable.
On the other hand, it may depend on which three dudes were targeted.
I don't think Israel has a problem with motorcycles per se.
Why not level the whole hospital, just to make sure? The gunman is capable of killing more than 21 civilians, the same amount of Israelis that have been killed by Hamas rockets the past 15 years. More rubble less trouble!
Because the Israelis are trying to minimize civilian casualties, you brainless anti-Semitic asshole.
We get that you're too lazy and too malicious to actually think beyond the latest lefty talking points. But your comments aren't clever, or pithy, or even remotely valuable. They just show that you don't think, and that you have access to a keyboard. If we acknowledge those points regularly, will you go away?
Burn it down.
Scatter the stones.
Salt the earth.
"@ Brando speaking of cutting off funding lets start with cutting off funding by our government to Hamas directly and indirectly by funding the UN."
Absolutely that funding should also be cut off. But if you disagree with my suggestion that we no longer send $3 billion a year to a first world country that provides us nothing in return, I'd like to hear a counterargument rather than a change of the subject. I have yet to hear why Israel would suffer some major hardship without our foreign aid, or what tangible benefit we get from this funding.
Robert Cook wrote:
Reducing the Israel/Palestine conflict to a simplistic hypothetical about "your neighbor shooting at you from across the street as he sits with a child on his lap" or "your neighbor digging a tunnel to your house to kidnap your children or blow up your home" hardly illuminates the complex reality, and serves only to distort it into a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy, even if the person making this reductionist analogy is purportedly in favor of an equitable two-state solution. Such simplistic reduction of reality to morality play inflames passion for war and killing throughout the world and human history. It always comes down to "we're right/they're wrong," no matter who tells the tale.
Except it really is that simple. That is exactly what Hamas is doing every single day. No country would stand for it, but because it's Israel somehow they must simply go to their bunkers and pretend like it's not happening. Screw that.
Surely Robert Cook is the last person on earth who's entitled to complain about anyone reducing a complicated issue to a black-and-white morality play?
garage mahal wrote:
Again, child human shields aren't much of a shield against bombs are they? I'm sure we track terrorists in the U.S. every day - why don't we bomb them wherever they are as Israel does?
They are human shields for political purposes. Look at what evil Israel did. They killed these kids here. Of course they don't actually stop bombs. Remembers when the left was going to send human shields to stop us from bombing Iraq (how long did that plan take to fall apart?)They weren't going to actually stop bombs with their bodies, you dolt.It's for propaganda.
As for tracking terrorists, we do track them overseas and Obama has drone striked the crap out of them. When he does he doesn't notify the innocent people to get out of the way. Nor does he need the justification of the terrorists firing rockets at us to justify them being blown to bits. And plenty of innocents have died who were simply collateral damage.
Also, your hypothetical is flawed in that the terrorists Israel are trcking are actually waging war with Israel. Missiles are fired into Israel every single day. No president would let our country be shelled daily, and not blow the crap out of those firing rockets at us (except maybe a lib who would suggest that we were responsible because of our mean policies). Nor would we accept tunnels being dug into our territory (except again by libs who don't care for border security)
Because the Israelis are trying to minimize civilian casualties, you brainless anti-Semitic asshole
Bombing hospitals and schools is an effort to minimize civilian casualties, Pookie? Common sense should tell you that's where the civilians are. Apparently you have none.
Again, child human shields aren't much of a shield against bombs are they?
As long as there are willfully ignorant anti-Semites like Garage around, then the use of children as human shields is effective. Because when Hamas hides its terrorists and its weapons among children, and Israel has no choice but to defend itself by targeting the terrorists and weapons, then innocent children will often die, and simplistic fools like Garage will lie to themselves and others by blaming their deaths on Israel.
If Garage wasn't an ignorant anti-Semitic asshole, he'd understand that the choice isn't either killing or not killing the terrorists, it's killing the terrorists or having many, many more innocent people killed.
It's undeniably tragic that innocent children are killed in this situation, and it's yet another of Hamas' many evils. But only the willfully obtuse and morally decrepit (and Garage seems to regularly volunteer for these roles) don't or won't understand what's actually happening and why.
Bonus points for anyone that can find an example of Garage criticizing Obama for civilian deaths caused by drone strikes.
Ha, Robert Cook comes out against reductionism except when he writes comment after comment about Iraq where "complexities" are studiously ignored.
That was my belly laugh for the day. thanks Robert!
"If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do? Why, drop a 4000 lb bomb on it and blow everyone up. That's what a moral government would do."
If your argument is so good, Garage, why do you have to exaggerate it so much?
Imagine how upset Robert Cook would be if Assad or Even Saddam Hussein used poison gas on civilians....
Oh, wait.
The gunman is capable of killing more than 21 civilians, the same amount of Israelis that have been killed by Hamas rockets the past 15 years
Goddam those sneaky Jews and the americans for inventing a system to prevent jewish deaths due to Hamas rockets!
That's not fair.
Goddam those Jews for using weapons to protect civilians, instead of civilians to protect weapons!
Great jon garage for focusing on the true problem...not enough Jews are being killed!
I'm sure we track terrorists in the U.S. every day - why don't we bomb them wherever they are as Israel does?
Because they aren't busy firing rockets and kidnapping soldiers right now.
I gurantee you, if a group in Canda or Mexico were behaving like Hamas, the U.S. would open up a can of whip ass on them. The spirit of Black Jack is not dead.
rage mahal said...
Meanwhile, Hamas forces children to be human shields at gunpoint and then acts horrified that children are dead
Again, child human shields aren't much of a shield against bombs are they? I'm sure we track terrorists in the U.S. every day - why don't we bomb them wherever they are as Israel does?
I know I'll regret this.
Hamas uses non combatants as human shields, including children, not to protect them-Hamas_ from bombs. They want them-civilians- dead. But as a source of propaganda for western consumption.
I'd think as a committed lying lefty you would already know this.
SeanF, Could be wrong, but Israel is the establishment like whites are the establishment. Sounds to me like Crack is saying that Hamas is the Black Panthers of the mid-east.
I increasingly find myself agreeing with Lincoln and Grant. War is truly awful and brutal, there is no avoiding that reality. So the most humane way to fight it is go all out so that it is as short as possible and to break the enemy's will to fight. I fear that the attempts at avoiding civilian casualties only prolong the violence. This fight in the Middle East has been going on for almost 70 years. Maybe the best thing is to just finish the fight once and for all. The "peace process" has lead to multigenerational war without end.
"Why not level the whole hospital, just to make sure? The gunman is capable of killing more than 21 civilians, the same amount of Israelis that have been killed by Hamas rockets the past 15 years. More rubble less trouble!"
Garage please note, you have totally missed the post and might as well have led with random letters. If the relevant authorities dealt with it, Israel wouldn't be in the picture at all. No bombs on hospitals because no missiles from hospitals.
Garage, the only reason we aren't talking about civilian casualties on the Israeli side is because Israel has defenses in play and whenever they hear sirens rush into bomb shelters. It's not because Hamas isn't trying to take out civilians. If a Hamas rocket his a bar, or a military target or a hospital it would be all the same to Hamas.
Why are the left so worked up about what's happening in Israel but not at all worked up about what's happening in Iraq or Syria where the death tolls are a lot higher.
The left will always call Israelis Hitler, but never the Muslims.
Let's avoid throwing around the terms "Jew hater" and "anti-semite" every time we confront a critic of Israel, okay? Some of you are starting to sound like the Obamaphiles who assume every critic of Obama is racist.
Some critics of Israel happen to be Jew-haters--and it's fine to call them out when that much is clear. But when that's not the case you sound no different from the shrill campus lefties you no doubt want to part of.
`Anybody seen Cedarford lately? Did he finally put his money where his vile mouth was and go fight with Hamas in Gaza?
garage mahal wrote:
If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do? Why, drop a 4000 lb bomb on it and blow everyone up. That's what a moral government would do.
That seems to be how Obama wants us to fight wars. No boots on the ground. Just drop a bomb on a target. Are you suggesting that Obama's way is not the moral way?
Any lefty who supports Obama supports escalated drone strikes. I've heard a lot of lefties actually saying it's better than having troops on the ground. Well ok then.
When we drone strike targets we do our best to not kill innocents, but we all know there are innocents who die. Do we warn them ahead of time? Most of our strikes aren't in direct response to terrorists fighting our troops. Rather we see a target and we take it out. Without warming.
It would seem then that Israel is taking greater care in protecting innocent civilians than we are. Maybe we shouldn't be hypocrites about how they defend themselves. M'kay Obama?
garage mahal wrote:
Bombing hospitals and schools is an effort to minimize civilian casualties, Pookie? Common sense should tell you that's where the civilians are. Apparently you have none.
And common sense tells you that's why Hamas puts rockets there. So that when Israel responds, civilians get killed.
Here's an honest report from a reporter about a rocket being fired from a hospital parking lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu-e5qWXx-k
So,this is the game Hamas is playing. Fire from civilian areas or targets and then get outraged when Israel returns fire at those areas.
I gurantee you, if a group in Canda or Mexico were behaving like Hamas, the U.S. would open up a can of whip ass on them. The spirit of Black Jack is not dead.
LOL. If a group in Canada killed two U.S. civilians the U.S. would bomb schools and hospitals in Canada?
Heatshield wrote:
Maybe the best thing is to just finish the fight once and for all. The "peace process" has lead to multigenerational war without end.
If you subsidize something you always get more of it. In this case war. All these peace proposals and cease fire are really just there so that Hamas can rearm itself.
What would really lead to peace? Defeating Hamas utterly and making it extremely costly for them to wage war. How did we get the Japanese out of WWII? We had to drop nukes on them. Otherwise they would have kept the fight going for years longer, leading to how many more deaths.
Israel needs to destroy the tunnels, destroy or greatly degrade Hamas's stockpiles and make it costly for Hamas to wage war.
And despite the lefty's usual boiler plate arguments much of the ME is actually on Israel's side. Egypt is blockading Gaza. Fatah is not a great fan of Hamas.
It's only because we have lefties in power who don't understand war that we keep going to the table with people who have no intention of negotiating a peace and saying "Lets have peace." Hamas is never going to negotiate for a two state solution so long as the West is there to chide Israel every time Israel beats them down for acting like terrorists.
And Obama is doing the same all over the ME. Coddling or ignoring those terrorists, putting down red lines and then ignoring them. All because he thinks it will bring peace. It wont. It only emboldens those who would commit to war.
Bombing hospitals and schools is an effort to minimize civilian casualties, Pookie? Common sense should tell you that's where the civilians are. Apparently you have none.
No, asshole. I was explaining why no-one on the Israeli side is following your idiotic suggestion to "level the whole hospital, just to be sure".
The reason the hospitals and schools are bombed is because that's where terrorists have taken to hiding out and storing their rockets.
I don't know if you're playing dumb, or just being dumb, when you assert that civilians are there, as though that proves that terrorists are not. Since you are a person without integrity who will write things that you don't believe, in the hopes of winning an argument, it probably doesn't matter anyhow.
Brando: Let's avoid throwing around the terms "Jew hater" and "anti-semite" every time we confront a critic of Israel, okay?
Israel, like every country, does things wrong and makes mistakes, and obviously pointing them out isn't anti-semitic.
Garage's dishonest pretense that the Israelis are intentionally killing children because they don't care, instead of it being the least bad of the bad choices it has, is an anti-semitic assertion, and needs to be countered as such.
The Holy Land! Where murder and strife never ends and it's always the other guy's fault. Mano y Mano Theism brought to you by the inbred spawn of Abraham.
"Garage's dishonest pretense that the Israelis are intentionally killing children because they don't care, instead of it being the least bad of the bad choices it has, is an anti-semitic assertion, and needs to be countered as such."
I can't speak to Garage's posts--they may be trolling, and I haven't read all of them--and maybe some of his/her implications have an anti-Jewish tint to them. But a lot of the comments above tend to throw around the "anti-Semite" charge without actually pointing out why the criticism is anti-Semitic, rather than simply wrong.
FWIW, I think most of the anti-Israeli sentiment in this country at least isn't so much anti-Israeli (let alone anti-Jewish) as it is a recoiling from seeing what a country has to do when fighting the enemies they have. The question most of them don't seem comfortable answering is what the Israelis should do instead--what would you do if you were their PM tomorrow? There really aren't good options for a civilized country--we of course know how Stalin would handle Palestinians--the same as he handled the Chechens!
The other thing is that most critics of Israel tend to hold Israel to a higher standard than most countries (and certainly her neighbors), which is why there's more uproar over the past month than there was over the past three years of mess in Syria. No serious person could argue that Assad isn't far worse towards his own people than the Israelis are towards the Palestinians--but the Israelis are supposed to be a western, free, civilized nation, comparable more to the U.S. than to a tinpot dictatorship. However, that comparison with the U.S. isn't exactly fair either--we're a much bigger country with nothing like the history of terrorist violence that Israel has dealt with over the past decades. And where we've had the opportunity (drone strikes, Gitmo, a couple overseas invasions) we've certainly responded with force in arguably unwise ways.
I'm sympathetic to Israel as I don't know what I'd do in their situation--maybe absorb most of the Palestinians into Israel as citizens to assimilate them, or set up a provisional government in the territories, to set them on the road to independence--but rooting out and striking out Hamas would remain a part of any sane strategy going forward. But I also think Israel and America would be both better off if the former weren't dependent on the latter for aid, as this makes for a strained relationship where we have to take responsibility for their actions and they have to pretend to care what we think they should do about their own business.
"Reducing the Israel/Palestine conflict to a simplistic hypothetical about "your neighbor shooting at you from across the street as he sits with a child on his lap" or "your neighbor digging a tunnel to your house to kidnap your children or blow up your home" hardly illuminates the complex reality, and serves only to distort it into a simple good guys/bad guys dichotomy, even if the person making this reductionist analogy is purportedly in favor of an equitable two-state solution."
-- Nuance does not matter until the immediate threat to life is ended. Pretending that Israel attempting to disarm people shooting rockets at them is as morally ambiguous or wrong as people shooting rockets at Israel for vague, geopolitical reasons [for example, for Israel opposing these people shooting rockets into Israel] is a fake attempt at seeming smart.
You're not smart. You're dumb. You say things like nuance, and shades of gray -- but you're not really thinking heavily about this. Israel offered cease fires; Israel has provided repeated good will gestures and has worked to find peaceful solutions.
That left people dead.
It is not "Palestinians" that are doing that. Most of them probably would rather have Hamas STOP killing people and inviting Israel to have to stop the rocket fire; they're just afraid of Hamas.
Why don't we try stopping the people willing to risk schools, churches and s and hospitals by turning them into weapon and ammo caches and firing pads, instead of asking Israel if it is OK if they get bombed a little more before retaliating?
No one understands the nuances of military tactics, planning and execution in a hostile terrorist controlled environment more than noted wisconsin rural high school graduate, self-assessed sophisticate and fisherman garage mahal.
Garage and the lefties are simply playing their part in defense of islamist terrorists and their terrorist tactics.
Completely predictable and utterly unsurprising.
The only people intentionally killing children and adult civilians are the islamist terrorists.
The only people the lefties are defending are the islamist terrorists.
Conclusions are easily deduced.
If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do? Why, drop a 4000 lb bomb on it and blow everyone up. That's what a moral government would do.
What kind of a moral government would launch attacks FROM a hospital?
That seems to be a non-issue for you.
"How dare those Joooos level a hospital that Palestinians have been using as a base for attacks for weeks/months now"
Let me guess, they should rely on the UN to fix this?
Hamas vs. Israel is probably a 60-40 split.
Couldn't disagree more. Keep in mind, if Israel wanted to, they could kill every Palestinian with few problems.
They don't.
Would the same be the case if the roles were reversed?
Simpler question: Could Israel use Israelis as human shields? No, because Palis don't CARE and what ALL Israelis dead regardless.
Why not level the whole hospital, just to make sure? The gunman is capable of killing more than 21 civilians, the same amount of Israelis that have been killed by Hamas rockets the past 15 years. More rubble less trouble!
So, Israel is bad because they seek to minimize civilian casualties while Palestinians seek to maximize them?
My God, when did the Left stop pretending to not hate Jews?
Again, child human shields aren't much of a shield against bombs are they? I'm sure we track terrorists in the U.S. every day - why don't we bomb them wherever they are as Israel does?
We've been attacking them and killing plenty of "innocents" for almost 13 years in Afghanistan based on one successful attack on us in 2001.
If a group in Canada killed two U.S. civilians the U.S. would bomb schools and hospitals in Canada?
No..but if a group in Canada fired thousands of missiles into the United States that threatened two-thirds of our population, and sent teams in to kidnap American soldiers and kill American civilians, then that group hid themselves and their weapons in hospitals and schools, then yes the U.S. would flatten those hospitals and schools. Probably without giving advance warning like the Israelis usually do.
"If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do? Why, drop a 4000 lb bomb on it and blow everyone up. That's what a moral government would do. "
-- The situations are not equivalent. Hamas isn't a single guy hiding in Palestine; it is a heavily armed, well-funded, state-actor firing weapons from places like hospitals. If you want Israel to fight a brutal, street-to-street war through all of the Middle East to destroy them, OK. That's a solution, but to pretend that a lone gunman is the same situation as we face here is another example of deliberate stupidity masquerading as "smarts."
Garage,
Of course you are right that carpet bombing a hospital to kill a lone gunman hiding there, knowing that there is only the one gunman, and knowing that he only has a gun and not rockets or mortars, would be wrong. Thank G-d that's not what Israel does. On the other hand, dropping a few hundred pounds of high explosives on a house from which you reasonably suspect Hamas fighters are firing rockets or mortars is eminently legal and moral even if you think the house is used as a day care center and is filled with children. Dropping warning notices before bombing residential houses, as Israel does, is not required by international law but is one of the steps that Israel takes to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties.
Happy to explain things for you.
Hamas kidnaps - and murders - three Israeli students, but the reasons behind this violence are "complex."
Palestinians throw rocks at the ambulance transporting the bodies of the three dead boys, busting out the windows, but the reasons behind this violence are "complex."
Hamas fires hundreds of rockets at the mourners during the funerals of the three boys, but the reasons behind this violence are "complex."
Israel endures hundreds of rocket attacks, for days, warning Hamas they need to stop. Instead, Hamas steps up their rocket fire, but the reasons behind this violence are "complex."
Ten days later, Israel enters Gaza, and discovers dozens of tunnels built to attack Israel on Rosh Hashanah, but the reasons behind the plans for this violence are "complex."
Um, no. The reasons are quite basic to anyone intellectually curious enough to read hamas's charter.
The left is getting insaner by the day. I find that a cause to be (very) mildly optimistic because I believe that they are getting insaner because reality is gaining on them.
What made me write this. Well reading complete BS like this comment of Garbage;
"I'm sure we track terrorists in the U.S. every day - why don't we bomb them wherever they are as Israel does?"
But the question is what would I do? The same thing blacks did:
Learn to shoot,...
There are a lot of dead black men, women and children who wish they hadn't.
Unknown: SeanF, Could be wrong, but Israel is the establishment like whites are the establishment. Sounds to me like Crack is saying that Hamas is the Black Panthers of the mid-east.
Crack was responding directly to the hypothetical in the post title - about your neighbor with a little boy on his lap spraying machine gun fire around.
He said, "I'd think we were back in the American South, almost any time after the Civil War, and whites aren't happy about the result."
So he was postulating that he'd assume the neighbor was a disgruntled white.
And since the neighbor, in this hypothetical, represents Hamas...
Wars tend to be simplistic.
Once the shooting starts there is a narrowing of the field of maneuver. Sometimes there just isn't an unambiguously moral solution. Maybe the best possible outcome is to accept an extended conflict, if it can be kept within reasonable bounds.
This can continue for a very long time, if neither side wants, or can, make a decisive change, such as exterminating or expelling the other.
In my old country we have a Christian-Muslim conflict that has had the same degree of low-level violence, with occasional bloodier flareups, for four and a half centuries. We have archaeological sites and historically preserved locations that exist because of this war. There are places where the old stone fort exists beside the modern military camp with bunkers and barbed wire.
Israel, and the Palestinians, should expect the same.
maybe it would be helpful if Crack would explain his initial post (to these ignorant ofay).
"So he was postulating that he'd assume the neighbor was a disgruntled white."
What neighborhood YOU talking about in the American South after the Civil War where they let blacks live next to whites?
On the other hand, dropping a few hundred pounds of high explosives on a house from which you reasonably suspect Hamas fighters are firing rockets or mortars is eminently legal and moral even if you think the house is used as a day care center and is filled with children
That's sick.
Fort Pilar, Zamboanga - built 1635
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Pilar
The last (latest) battle in Zamboanga - last year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamboanga_City_crisis
I hope Israels walls are built to last.
For the record by the way, I am pro-Palestinian. For a long time I was anti-Israeli. (not anti-semetic) I proudly represented the Jordan and Lebanon at different international Model United Nations. I have attended Palestinian Cultural Club meetings, and even wrote for one of their magazines once. I still believe in a two state solution.
However
The Palestinians have been poorly lead and abused by the other Arabs. It is truly tragic (but true) that Palestinians living in Israel live better and are more free than Palesinians living in any Arab nation. They have been deliberately left in refugee camps and poverty for propoganda reasons. Materials meant to build homes for them are diverted to make tunnels to launch attacks from. Israel has an absolute right and duty to protect its people. The fighting will end when Hamas stops attacking Israel. Hamas will never stop attacking Israel, so Hamas must be destroyed.
Crack: "I'd think we were back in the American South, almost any time after the Civil War, and whites aren't happy about the result."
garage: "If there is one gunman inside a large hospital, what do you do? Why, drop a 4000 lb bomb on it and blow everyone up. That's what a moral government would do."
The mind boggles trying to characterize these comments.
"Illogical?" Obviously. "Stupid?" Probably. Can something be "illogically stupid?" Or does "stupidly illogical" work better?
"Why are the left so worked up about what's happening in Israel but not at all worked up about what's happening in Iraq or Syria where the death tolls are a lot higher."
About 400 illegal immigrants die each year in the US, and while there fatality statistics for those trying to get into the US as they pass through Mexico, most of the deaths in the US occur in a 30-50 mile strip at the border while passage through Mexico is much longer and more dangerous. About 400 people are kidnapped in transit. In the last couple of years these numbers are up by a lot, probably associated with the unprecedented rise of unaccompanied children.
Certainly there are valid criticisms to make of Israel and its leadership and people. But if you read someone's comments and get the sense that they would only be happy if Israel committed national suicide, they probably just hate Jews. see: Garage Mahal. I think anti-Israel sentiment on the left mainly comes down to seeing Jews as just mildly exotic white people and Arabs as brown people, and wherever there is conflict between those two colors, you can guess who the evil ones will end up being. And then of course if you claim (counter to all facts) that Israel is committing genocide, that is just the medieval blood libel dressed up in post-modern disguise.
I have my critiques of Israel and teh neocon Puppetmasters that seek to embroil the US in eternal war.
But it is hard to fault true self-defense. And that is what Israel is doing.
I find it much easier to fault leftists who think retaliation is never justified and sappy bleeding heart idiots that think all war is about is showing who is "morally better".
The former thinks if you are repeatedly bombed, you go to the UN and lodge repeated complaints.
The latter have their heads up their asses...even more so than the leftists.. They think that the less you engage in proportionate response, the more moral you are and shooting 10 missiles at them because they shot 1 at you is NEVER justified.
Ideally, you "turn the other cheek" altogether. Leave it to wise academics to resolve who was "better and more morally pure" in books decades later. (Assuming the better and more morally pure side still exists)
Included in that is the faction of idiots that think that technology has made war perfect so "no innocent civilian" need die(ie the enemy non-combatants that typically start the war and provide the actual enemy combat forces with money, manpower, material support, and strong moral support)
To me, the Israelis are right warning Hamas that they attack Israel, their blood will flow.
But if you read someone's comments and get the sense that they would only be happy if Israel committed national suicide, they probably just hate Jews. see: Garage Mahal
Yes, how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards than a terrorist organization. Must be anti-semitic. Well yeah, to a simple minded dolt like you, sure.
That's why snipers and telescopic sights (with lasers) were invented.
...or call DYFS. They'll make that fellows' life hell!
Hamas is not a terrorist organization; or rather, its not just a terrorist organization. It is a government, de facto and many would say de jure, such as it is, in the territory it controls. And it has not only long controlled the population there, it seems to have the allegiance of that population.
The PLO was and probably still is the same.
The latest such gang, Syria-Iraq's ISIS, is the same.
The Bolsheviks in Russia were the same.
What do you do with terrorists who run a state ?
If you cannot send policemen to catch them, you must send soldiers, bombs, or ambassadors.
Cook: Reducing the Israel/Palestine conflict to a simplistic...
Oh bullshit.
BTW, we met in 1931. You were that sophist parroting "sure Hitler is bad, but..."
Garage, Hamas doesn't have the Iron Dome. So suppose instead of firign targeted rockets at those in gaza firing at them it instead did what Hamas did, would you be happier?
Suppose Israel just started firing missiles into Gaza.No warning. Would they hit a hospital? A bar? A terrorist? Who knows, the point being they'd hit something. Would you prefer that?
garage mahal wrote:
Yes, how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards than a terrorist organization. Must be anti-semitic. Well yeah, to a simple minded dolt like you, sure.
You hold Israel to an impossibly high standard and you hold Hamas to no standard at all.
Yes, how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards than a terrorist organization
How about holding Israel to better moral standards than any other nation or organization in History?
garage: how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards
Ha. Listen to the armchair chickenhawk talk about moral standards during war.
Cut the act, its not selling. You only want to hold Israel to Marquess of Queensberry rules so they will be destroyed.
I'm certain because, in the 10 years I've read you here, not once have you ever invoked moral standards. Ergo you only do so now because its convenient for your concern trolling.
garage: "Yes, how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards than a terrorist organization."
The moral equivalence implied by this and your other comments is monstrous.
Perhaps you would share with us the location of the clean, dry place on which you stand to define moral standards for folks whose children have been murdered for decades by terrorists committed to their obliteration as a people and a nation.
When the air raid sirens go off in Israel the people gather their children and they dash to the bomb shelters. We never see the people of Gaza dashing to the miles and miles and miles of tunnels they dug because the miles and miles and miles of tunnels were not dug for the safety of the people of Gaza and their children.
Odd that.
when Sherman marched through Georgia and then turned north, he burned and destroyed civilian territory on a line sixty miles wide. That ended Southern resistance. Then Sherman went West and burned and destroyed Indian villages in a campaign modeled on his march through Georgia. That ended Indian resistance. Was either campaign an atrocity? Or neither? Or both?
Was Robert E Lee wrong to refuse to lead a guerrilla campaign even after hearing about Sherman's march?
These are just academic questions - for us.
The IDF has captured and put online and translated a Hamas combat manual. http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/. This manual makes clear that Hamas knows, as Garage pretends he does not, that Israeli forces take extraordinary steps to avoid harm to civilians while still engaging legitimate military targets, and the manual explains how Hamas fighters can take advantage of Israeli ethics to inflict greater harm on Israeli soldiers. See also http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/08/from-the-hamas-combat-manual.php. Sorry, Garage, you might as just fess up at this point: you want Hamas to win, and you will peddle any lies you can get away with to advance that goal.
Ha. Listen to the armchair chickenhawk talk about moral standards during war.
Gaza is under military rule. How can colonial subjects cooped up in a pen offering only a meager resistance be described as a war? Does anyone inside Gaza ever have a right to defend themself?
garage: "Yes, how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards than a terrorist organization."
Yes, that seems to be the response de jour. If any of your ilk really believed that Hamas was a terrorist organization, you'd evince some measure of sympathy for the party that has to formulate a response to said terrorist organization. Examine your own motives...why do elements of the extreme right and left hold Israel to a higher standard than you do any other country in the world? Because Jew hatred is that place on the political spectrum where David Duke and Howard Zinn hold hands.
Of course, I wouldn't expect any level of introspection from someone like you. You're like the person who has a Confederate flag on his bumper but swears racism isn't the reason he hates Obama.
Hamas hides behind civilians, uses civilian sites for military purposes, and does not distinguish its fighters from civilians.
Hamas' very modus operandi is a war crime.
What does a country do when attacked by such an opponent?
That Israel's defense should be judged so harshly, by the usual double standards, is telling.
"I have my critiques of Israel and teh neocon Puppetmasters that seek to embroil the US in eternal war."
Cederford, the library called and said you haven't returned your copy of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."
Field Marshall and noted military historian "Garage the Courageous": "Gaza is under military rule. How can colonial subjects cooped up in a pen offering only a meager resistance be described as a war? Does anyone inside Gaza ever have a right to defend themself?
LOL
So much stupidity and factual inaccuracy in so few words.
I used to lump crack in with garage.
I hereby formally apologize to crack for that.
By Garage's simple-minded "higher moral standard", Israel would be unable to strike back at all.
Seriously, when, if ever, have the Palestinians chosen wisely? The Jordanians kicked them out in the '70s, the Lebanese in the '80s, the Kuwaitis on the '90s. Even their brother Arabs are sick to death of them.
Garage,
You ask if Gazans have the right to defend themselves. Sure. If they were minding their own business, not attacking Israel with rockets, and Israel launched an unprovoked attack on Gaza, well of course they could defend themselves. That is, so long as they didn't commit war crimes in the process by hiding weapons and fighters among civilians, thereby inviting attacks on civilians.
Honestly, I think you are overthinking this stuff. It's not complicated.
Gaza is under military rule..
Israel withdrew settlers and soldiers on 2005. Hamas has ruled Gaza since Gazans voted them to power un 2006.
How can colonial subjects cooped up in a pen offering only a meager resistance be described as a war
The Palis keep finding ways to pick the losing side (Jordan 1970), Beirut 1980, Kuwait 1990), so, yes, they end up getting clubbed by baby seals. That's Israel's fault because..?
Does anyone inside Gaza ever have a right to defend themself?
Apparently in Gaza only the Qassam rocket launchers have the right of self-defense...by being surrounded by unarmed Pali civilians.
Brando said...
"@ Brando speaking of cutting off funding lets start with cutting off funding by our government to Hamas directly and indirectly by funding the UN."
Absolutely that funding should also be cut off. But if you disagree with my suggestion that we no longer send $3 billion a year to a first world country that provides us nothing in return, I'd like to hear a counterargument rather than a change of the subject. I have yet to hear why Israel would suffer some major hardship without our foreign aid, or what tangible benefit we get from this funding.
8/4/14, 12:05 PM
Simple. First the pentagon gets to keep its suppliers filled with orders for equipment that is essentially the same as what the DoD buys but often times can't because of some idiot congressional budget cut. Second we benefit from tech transfer from the Israeli side. Now what tangible benefit do we get from funding NATO, keeping troops in S. Korea, Japan and guaranteeing the existence of the execrable House of Saud and the other equally execrable Arab Gulf States? All of those countries are first world or have so much money that they can easily pay full freight for their defense. Compared to what we spend on any of these our spending on Israel is small change but unlike the others I mentioned is of real value to the US.
Blogger garage mahal said...
But if you read someone's comments and get the sense that they would only be happy if Israel committed national suicide, they probably just hate Jews. see: Garage Mahal
Yes, how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards than a terrorist organization. Must be anti-semitic. Well yeah, to a simple minded dolt like you, sure.
8/4/14, 5:02 PM
That terrorist organization is the government in Gaza and they were elected by the people of Gaza.
So tell us again why you support terrorists and their supporters. Now if the good terrorists of Gaza were staunch Scott Walker supporters one suspects that good ole boy Garage would be a strong supporter of Israel.
Examine your own motives...why do elements of the extreme right and left hold Israel to a higher standard than you do any other country in the world? Because Jew hatred is that place on the political spectrum where David Duke and Howard Zinn hold hands.
If you insist on bringing race into this, Jews in the U.S. vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. There is not one Jewish Republican left in the U.S. Congress.
garage: "If you insist on bringing race into this, Jews in the U.S. vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. There is not one Jewish Republican left in the U.S. Congress."
LOL
Garage, master of the non sequitor!!
And he doesn't even realize it.
More Palestinians than Israelis are being killed? That's just not fair. The IDF should sit on their hands for a while and let Hamas score some points for a change. Then give both sides a trophy and go have pizza.
"If you insist on bringing race into this, Jews in the U.S. vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. There is not one Jewish Republican left in the U.S. Congress."
Red herring. Can't answer the question. This isn't really about Democrats and Republicans, given that the Democrats in Congress are almost all on the right side of this conflict. My question is about the hard left, whose views on Israel are represented by maybe a dozen representatives, and the paleoconservatives, who are represented by...well, no one I can think of in Congress, but whose views are given voice to by someone like Pat Buchanan. These are the two groups who set an impossibly high standard for the world's only Jewish state and then accuse it of genocide or some such bullshit when they fail to meet those standards.
"Simple. First the pentagon gets to keep its suppliers filled with orders for equipment that is essentially the same as what the DoD buys but often times can't because of some idiot congressional budget cut."
So we give them tax dollars so that they can spend some of those tax dollars on buying from American companies? Why not simply pay our own companies directly and cut out the middleman? This justification sounds a lot like the liberals trying to justify their "stimulus" plans. There are more efficient ways to boost our own economy. At least when this is done through poorer countries we can argue that we're helping the less fortunate, though even that is debatable.
"Second we benefit from tech transfer from the Israeli side."
Whatever tech transfer you're referring to, why is such transfer dependent on our spending billions a year on foreign aid? Can this not be accomplished through other cooperative agreements? It's not as though Israel doesn't benefit from that as well.
"Now what tangible benefit do we get from funding NATO, keeping troops in S. Korea, Japan and guaranteeing the existence of the execrable House of Saud and the other equally execrable Arab Gulf States? All of those countries are first world or have so much money that they can easily pay full freight for their defense. Compared to what we spend on any of these our spending on Israel is small change but unlike the others I mentioned is of real value to the US."
During the Cold War, that sort of spending was justified by arguing that keeping a belt of friendly nations as a buffer against the Soviets was essential to protecting various markets for U.S. trade and protecting our own national security--these things were also started at a time when the countries in question were undeveloped, or recovering from WWII so there was a humanitarian argument. I agree that those justifications are obselete now, and inertia is the best reason why we still spend on it--same as with Israel. Israel is no longer a poor nation surrounded by conventional armies dedicated to its destruction. Egypt and Jordan are at worst neutral towards Israel, Syria is weak and undergoing civil war, and most importantly Israel is now far more powerful and wealthy than its neighbors. They don't actually need our subsidy, and would be better off without it as they wouldn't have to listen to our lectures about peace, and we wouldn't have to assume responsibility for their actions.
Yes, how dare I attempt to hold Israel to better moral standards than a terrorist organization. Must be anti-semitic.
No, it's anti-semitic, because Hamas' terrorism is only relevant to you when it gives you an excuse to tolerate their inhumanity. Israel's need to combat a terror organization committed to killing Jews doesn't even enter your incurious, dishonest, anti-semitic mind.
"Higher Standards"
That strange thing which makes Abu Ghraib II, were some prisoners got panties on their heads, much, but really much much, worse than Abu Ghraib I, were people were put trough the meat-grinder.
"Higher Standards" the cop-out for garbage who have NO standards at all. For if they did they would say something like "We hold all people to the SAME high standards, but it is more grievous if the USA (or say the CC) breaks them".
Reports are coming out that Hamas is executing Palestinians that protested against them. If you support Hamas [note the clear differentiation I'm making between Hamas and the rest of the civilians in the area], then you are supporting a group that murders their own citizens that have political disagreements with the ruling class, uses child slave labor to build tunnels into another sovereign nation, while arming those tunnels with stockpiles of handcuffs and sedatives to aid in kidnapping people to hold for ransom. But, hey. The issue is complex.
Garage is a good example of how the "both sides do it" moral cowardice rots your brain.
Is there some way to configure the comments so you can exclude some users' comments?
I have been about as entertained by Garage Mahal as I ever care to be.
garage mahal said...
Ha. Listen to the armchair chickenhawk talk about moral standards during war.
Gaza is under military rule. How can colonial subjects cooped up in a pen offering only a meager resistance be described as a war? Does anyone inside Gaza ever have a right to defend themself?
8/4/14, 6:25 PM
If the citizens of Gaza just STOP firing rockets into Israel, stop kidnapping Israelis', and stop blowing them selves up when in Israel, Israel would leave them alone. The people of Gaza are not defending themselves. They are the aggressors. What is it about this that is so hard for you to understand?
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