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९३ टिप्पण्या:
How far is Ferguson from East St. Louis?
You see this cat The Past is a bad mother--
-- Shut your mouth! --
But I'm talkin' about 'The Past'
--Then we can dig it.
keyword : racial theater
In the US
• The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall homicide rate for male victims was 7.13 per 100,000. For white male victims, the homicide rate was 3.85 per 100,000.
• The homicide rate for black female victims was 4.54 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall homicide rate for female victims was 1.81 per 100,000. For white female victims, the homicide rate was 1.45 per 100,000.
If one was black you would think one might want some tough policing. I guess there are more important things than being killed.
How far are you from East St. Louis, Lars? What's your point? Are you willing to say what you actually mean? Come out with it man. Show your true colors.
The big story here is that the state felt it had to take enforcement out of the hands of the local police.
This is an American city. The people protesting the police conduct are Americans. I do not know what happened in the particular incident that caused the first killing. But these are American citizens. They are not making all of this up.
They just had a news conference. I heard some of it. The police officer's name was released and the information that he was investigating a strong armed robbery earlier in the day which WAS videotaped.
What happens if Michael Brown was involved in that robbery ? That would really blow this whole thing up.
"f one was black you would think one might want some tough policing. I guess there are more important things than being killed."
Ridiculous. Blacks want what everyone else wants from the police. To be protected. Protection is the issue, not "toughness."
At some point I thought Althouse had railed against using children as props. Perhaps that was during the protests of Scott Walker's policy changes. Was there a tag?
David said...
How far are you from East St. Louis, Lars? What's your point? Are you willing to say what you actually mean? Come out with it man. Show your true colors.
The big story here is that the state felt it had to take enforcement out of the hands of the local police.
This is an American city. The people protesting the police conduct are Americans. I do not know what happened in the particular incident that caused the first killing. But these are American citizens. They are not making all of this up.
I don't know what happened in this incident either. But, we should learn from the Zimmerman case that initial reports of facts are frequently wrong, and that people, and the media, do make things up.
I haven't commented on this incident. I want to see what the facts are.
"The police officer's name was released and the information that he was investigating a strong armed robbery earlier in the day which WAS videotaped.
What happens if Michael Brown was involved in that robbery ? That would really blow this whole thing up."
If they had evidence that Brown was involved in the robbery, we probably would have seen it by now. Got some evidence? Show it.
I do not know what happened when Brown got shot. Neither do you. But the eruption after the shooting is not about just Michael Brown. I say again. These are Americans, in an American community. Do you really think they are making all of this up?
"If one was black you would think one might want some tough policing. I guess there are more important things than being killed."
Of course black citizens want "tough policing." But "tough policing" should be "fair policing," not abusive or discriminatory policing. It should not feel like an occupying army of cops who view all the residents of the area with suspicion and hostility.
In short, they want the kind of policing that most white citizens take for granted. (Though, if militarized police become more and more the norm everywhere, white citizens will soon learn what it feels like to be black citizens. In the wake of Ferguson, there are calls to de-militarize the police.)
David:
If it is true that shots were fired from the protesting crowds, how does the "these are American citizens" work, exactly? Please, by all means, explore your deepest feelings. Show your true colours.
I see David beat me to the punch and gave a similar answer as my own.
"Do you really think they are making all of this up?"
Please provide the evidence you have that the answer is 'no'. Personally, I am perfectly willing to believe the one-party company town of St. Louis has treated its citizens poorly. That is the pattern I see in every one-party company town.
St. Louis is run by Democrats and it is racist. I do not think the citizens are wrong about that.
"In the wake of Ferguson, there are calls to de-militarize the police."
This is wrong. Many people on the Right and many libertarians have been calling for an end to the militarization of the police.
"Welcome to the party, pal."
I'll gladly welcome you to my point of view, held and expressed over many years, if you'll please quit misrepresenting the facts.
David said...
Ridiculous. Blacks want what everyone else wants from the police. To be protected. Protection is the issue, not "toughness."
Seriously, you think that the police anywhere protect? The only crimes they stop are future ones, not yet committed, by arresting criminals of past crimes, already committed.
Do you really think they are making all of this up?
It's entirely possible they are. Hell Sharpton has made a career out of making shit like this up.
Speaking of "the past"...
Priorities: Where is the Holder Justice Department's Community Relations Service Team that was sent to Nebraska when a parody papier-mâché Obama appeared in a parade?
http://www.justice.gov/crs
Of course the people in Ferguson aren't making it all up. What they are doing is believing rumors, which might or might not turn out to be true. Most 9/11 truthers are American citizens as well.
"I say again. These are Americans, in an American community. Do you really think they are making all of this up?"
No, I am also concerned about the militarization of police. HOWEVER, the stills from that video look like Brown, tall, heavy black guy beating up a small woman clerk in a convenience store. The shooting was less than 1/4 mile from that store. The facts may be coming out.
Anytime Al Sharpton shows up, my bullshit detector goes off on red alert.
Um, Birkel, dont' be so full of yourself. I have opposed the militarization of the police for years, (as well as opposing all asset forfeiture laws).
I'm referring to legislators finally stepping up to opposed the militarization of police.
Don't you keep up with the news?
I've always had a hard time understanding people who have a hard time with cops. And it's not just black people --- I know some white guys that spent their youth getting hassled by cops that still have a reaction, even now that they're married with children. But the past really does factor into things.
Then I saw this Comedians in Cars Getting Coffeewith Chris Rock. Jerry gets pulled over and even though Chris Rock is kind of making jokes about it, his face tenses up and he's really nervous. Watch at 13:30. You'll see. I "got it" a little bit more after seeing that.
And here.
Birches,
I think if you've had even one experience--much less several--where a police officer (or gang of them) have hassled you or treated you disrespectfully or with scorn or worse--the experience will stay with you, and will tend to color your view of the police.
No one likes to be bullied.
That guy in the video is wrong though. I think the segment of the population that frowns about what is happening in Ferguson also frowns about the "freedom fighters" overseas...
HuffPo has the stills from the video . Next we need to see how Brown was dressed when shot.
"But the eruption after the shooting is not about just Michael Brown."
-- It has very little to do with him; the people who ACTUALLY care about getting justice aren't the ones burning places to the ground.
The police we knew back in the 1950-1980s were nice people first and tough guys second, if necessary. Today's young police are trained as militarized squads that use intimidation first and never break warface and be nice because the inmates (that is us) might take as a sign of weakness.
It is fear is what they want from us...a fear of being abused by lawless thugs with badges and an army behind them.
Dare we stand up to that? The only way is is bold free speech.
Rule#1: If they take away your speech, then they own you.
So why be be afraid to speak out about the facts as we know them, from the first raw reports before a certain to happen Karl Rovian like salting of the airwaives with contra facts about police being shot at and firebombs being thrown and stores being looted.
Robert Cook:
Next time you want to misrepresent the facts do so more clearly by typing the appropriate nouns, e.g. legislators.
You will find that writing more clearly allows for far less obfuscation so I understand your hesitance in utilizing such a skill, if that skill you possess.
SAN FRANCISCO – A hostage kidnapped during a Northern California bank robbery was killed by police in an ensuing chase and shootout, likely during a final gunbattle where the lone surviving suspect used her as a human shield, authorities said Monday.
The results of a preliminary ballistics report show that police in the city of Stockton fired the 10 bullets that struck Misty Holt-Singh, 41, and all her wounds likely came during a final burst of gunfire, Stockton Police Chief Eric Jones said at a news conference.
The bad guy is alive. White lady who ran into bank real quick while her 12 year old daughter waited in car is dead. No riot planned.
Is involving small children in the protests going to improve race relations over the long run?
I saw, on MSNBC, an interview with the young man who was with Brown when he got shot. The young man claimed that they had been doing nothing improper when the officer accosted them. The incident and the shooting came out of nowhere. The implication was that the officer shot Brown because he, the officer, was a racist psychopath. The young man who described the incident had tattoos on his neck. The MSNBC interviewer didn't ask him any questions about his background.
If some of those heavy police vehicles can be described as an overreaction, cannot the burning and looting of stores also be characterized as an overreaction. How about rock throwing and Molotov cocktails? It is said that people get the government they deserve, and that also includes their police department.
Is the racial angle central to this case or is it just a distraction?
While this story has recently gripped the nation's attention, stories of seemingly unjustified violent police actions are common these days. If any group seems over-represented, it's canine-Americans.
There seem to be two common threads in all the stories: a very high aversion to risk towards the police officer (at the expense of increased risk to the public at large) and an inability to admit that a mistake was made and to take action to address the cause of the mistake.
Police militarization is a symptom of the risk aversion, and in this case we see it heavily in the response to the riots, but in the initial shooting it's more a matter of "The suspect did something which may have been a hostile act! Respond with deadly force!". We've seen cases where that 'hostile act' can be trying to drive away (Patricia Cook) or holding something which might look like a gun (Christopher Roupe).
The aversion to accepting blame can be seen in the closing ranks and slow response of the police and the city government. If you admit that something bad happened, you open the doors for bad PR and lawsuits. In a way, the people clamoring for 'justice' (often in the form of a massive legal settlement) make figuring out what went wrong and fixing the problem more difficult.
Robert Cook wrote -
"I think if you've had even one experience--much less several--where a police officer (or gang of them) have hassled you or treated you disrespectfully or with scorn or worse--the experience will stay with you, and will tend to color your view of the police."
I've had such an experience. It didn't color my view of police generally. But it sure did color my view of the city that employed him.
Robert Cook: Um, Birkel, dont' be so full of yourself. I have opposed the militarization of the police for years, (as well as opposing all asset forfeiture laws).
I'm referring to legislators finally stepping up to opposed the militarization of police.
Don't you keep up with the news?
Why all the hand-waving and squirrel-pointing? A simple, "sorry, I didn't make myself clear" would have sufficed. Or maybe you're sincerely surprised that there have been lots of "calls to de-militarize the police" that pre-dated Ferguson and weren't all about you.
The smart money’s on Harlow
And the moon is in the street
And the shadow boys
Are breakin’ all the laws
Oh and it’s east of East St. Louis
And the wind is making speeches
And the rain sounds
Like a round of applause
And Napoleon is weeping
In a carnival saloon
His invisible fiancée
Is in the mirror
And the band is goin’ home
It’s raining hammers
It’s raining nails
It’s true there’s nothing
Left for him down here
Blogger Robert Cook said...
Birches,
I think if you've had even one experience--much less several--where a black (or gang of them) have hassled you or treated you disrespectfully or with scorn or worse--the experience will stay with you, and will tend to color your view of blacks.
No one likes to be bullied.
8/15/14, 9:43 AM
Anglelyne: "Or maybe you're sincerely surprised that there have been lots of "calls to de-militarize the police" that pre-dated Ferguson and weren't all about you."
The right/center-right/libertarian right etc have been talking about his forever.
The lefties don't know this since they don't allow themselves to navigate beyond the lefty hive-mind.
Thus, once again, the left thinks they have discovered something "new".
Worse, the position of the righties on this issue is one the left has some basic agreement with, thus the right wing position and history on this issue must be denied at all costs.
Drago said...
Anglelyne: "Or maybe you're sincerely surprised that there have been lots of "calls to de-militarize the police" that pre-dated Ferguson and weren't all about you."
-----------------------------
I'm having trouble following the logic. Did Brown get run over by an MRAP? Was he incinerated by a Hellfire?
I thought he was killed by a standard issue firearm? How is that 'militarization".
Why all the hand-waving and squirrel-pointing? A simple, 'sorry, I didn't make myself clear' would have sufficed."
Um...I don't believe I wasn't clear. Birkel chose to make something of nothing, to jump to a conclusion as to what I meant, to seize the opportunity to self-aggrandizingly praise "the right."
Lars, the militarization refers to the police response to protests about Brown's death, not the shooting itself.
Michael K,
"What happens if Michael Brown was involved in that robbery ? That would really blow this whole thing up."
That would change the shooting of an unarmed man?
Boy, you are not only racist but clueless.
I also haven't forgotten you think Trayvon should've died for "drank".
You're a real catch, Mike.
You should be proud your kid hates you.
You earn it,...
Lars Porsena,
re: your comment @11:01...
Please don't change my post and present it without noting your changes, as it leaves the impression to others I said something I did not.
You could have added the standard disclaimer/comment: "Here, I corrected that for you."
David,
"Blacks want what everyone else wants from the police. To be protected. Protection is the issue, not "toughness.""
Thank YOU - these whites don't see anything wrong with how they think, and that's a clear example of a flaw.
They do see blacks as different. They do force bad things on us by encouraging "toughness" - and then claiming WE want it.
It's sick, I tell you, just sick - especially in implimentation, because you know who catches hell for resisting what we don't want, right?
And then they also demand - DEMAND - we love them for the disaster they've created.
Anyway, nice to see ya,...
Blogger Robert Cook said...
Lars Porsena,
re: your comment @11:01...
Please don't change my post and present it without noting your changes, as it leaves the impression to others I said something I did not.
You could have added the standard disclaimer/comment: "Here, I corrected that for you."
8/15/14, 11:26 AM
-------------------------
Thank you for your correction.
Birkel,
"I am perfectly willing to believe the one-party company town of St. Louis has treated its citizens poorly. That is the pattern I see in every one-party company town.
St. Louis is run by Democrats and it is racist. I do not think the citizens are wrong about that."
Has anyone else noticed, when commenters are this dumb, they rarely have public profiles? I always want to see what kinds of people are this idiotic but the real dummies hardly ever are honest enough to reveal themselves.
Like The Klansmen of old, these clowns need anonymity,...
That would change the shooting of an unarmed man?
It would establish that he is a violent thug and a criminal.
Armed or not, white, black, or orange, if he assaulted the police officer (as he did the convenience store clerk) and tried to get his gun, then he is guilty for his own death.
Trayvon Martin had George Zimmerman on his back. Trayvon was sitting on Zimmerman's chest, hitting him in the face MMA style. Zimmerman, rightfully, was in fear for his life, and shot Martin in self defense. Martin may have been unarmed, but he is still guilty for his own death.
But, we should learn from the Zimmerman case that initial reports of facts are frequently wrong, and that people, and the media, do make things up.
Or learn it from any news report about anything that happened in your presence. They are invariably wrong. I first learned this watching press reports of the 'riot' at a high school basketball game (which was basically a few kids getting into a fight, a bunch of cops showing up, and some tear gas). The reporting was so ridiculous and many high school students were making things up for the reporters, because why not?
Half of the first reports on any event tend to be wrong, or at least missing half the details.
Before and after pictures.
The photos are out and the guy in the robbery looks like Brown. Brown was 6-4 and about 300 pounds so he definitely stood out.
So I was wrong about the lack of publication indicating that the photos prove nothing. It's very likely the same guy.
He apparently roughed up the clerk and took some snack food and cigars. Stupid. Also criminal. But mostly incredibly stupid.
This only further muddies the waters about what happened at the shooting. You have a large guy acting stupidly once, so he could have again. There is also a long rant by a guy who was supposedly a witness on You Tube. Mostly I can't make sense of what the guy is saying. But he seems to say that Brown was shot numerous times, which does not seem to be true.
None of this means that the policing in Ferguson was not bad. Pretty clearly they had a big problem with how they were acting in the black community.
It's sad. A petty crime turns hugely consequential. The man who was shot acted badly. Nobody can make sense of anything (quite understandably) and we all just retreat to our preconceptions.
Again, these are all Americans, in an American town. It's a terrible thing.
One ray of hope. The (black) state police commander now in charge of the policing seems to have a level head and a firm command on things. This will help in the short run. In the long run we still have a mess.
Michael K,
"The stills from that video look like Brown, tall, heavy black guy beating up a small woman clerk in a convenience store. The shooting was less than 1/4 mile from that store. The facts may be coming out.
Anytime Al Sharpton shows up, my bullshit detector goes off on red alert."
Look out, everybody, it's the "drank" prosecution:
Black people always deserve to die in this maniac's eyes. All he wants is a reason. Trayvon smoked pot and made himself some "drank" - good enough for Michael K:
He deserved to die.
Yesterday, I mentioned the white "expectation" those shoved into ghettoes (by whites) would be angels was insane, and got scoffed at - I was told whites are poor, too, by someone who never heard of Bonnie & Clyde. Today - with absolutely no mention of Michael Brown ever having a weapon of any kind - Michael K is happy to agree me, as he waits with glee for any justification of an 18-year old meeting the famous crime team's fate.
White people should think, long and hard, about their documented, centuries-old, black blood lust - and especially what drives it. It's an ugly thing. Worse than Rwanda, because it's been going on so long. Mass picnics. Bodies hanging in the public square. From flagpoles.
And, then, there's the ones with their pants down.
Too many to ignore, and yet there's little discussion of what the phenomena means - to white people. About white people. By white people.
Instead, they collectively demand - demand - we see them as they see themselves, as some version of Annie Hall.
Yep, if Michael Brown was involved in that robbery, that would really blow this whole thing up.
Enough to divert attention away, again, from everything Michael K is desperately hoping this nation will never confront head-on.
Like why white guys need body armor and automatic weapons to deal with blacks. And why's the Pentagon giving it to them? That's some pretty South Africa-type shit right there.
The entire police force had to be shut down. If the entire police force was involved in Michael Brown's death, that would really blow this whole thing up.
But Michael K wouldn't care - doesn't fit his narrative. Mine doesn't have to change for anything. Brown could've been robbing. Brown could've been the wrong guy. Doesn't matter. It fits the narrative.
All of American history, and even before that, is replete with this shit. But now we can talk back - and the whole world is watching. I wonder what they think of "The Greatest Country On Earth" right about now? American whites?
Especially after seeing the overnight calm when sanity was restored by eliminating - firing - Michael K's heroes?
400 years is a long time, y'all.
Anybody still think HR40's going to be ignored when it's resubmitted?
Crack takes time out from his Huggy Bear "Black Athena" act to continue his non-stop trayvon martin lying.
Nice to see some consistency.
Birkel said...
"Do you really think they are making all of this up?"
Please provide the evidence you have that the answer is 'no'.
A lifetime of experience, Birkel. And actually knowing some actual black people.
As for your question about shots fired from the crowd, I'd rather wait until there is evidence that it's not hypothetical. But certainly I do not think that mobs are benign, white or black. In any event, the answer to your question does not address the bigger issues of why this is a problem in city after city and what to do about it.
I'm not going to write off a race because there are some idiots among them. If that is the case, we whites too have some explaining to do. I'm not big on white guilt either. But there is a difference between guilt and responsibility.
Just scanning now - do none of you remember blacks are still reeling from New York's Eric Garner getting choked out in broad daylight for the Michael K-level crime of selling cigarettes for 75 cents apiece?
That the verdict for Renisha McBride's killer was just handed down?
I mean, I get it - you think blacks should think like you do - you're "individuals". Completely unconnected by the mayhem you unleash on one another. Right? If Comcast is ripping you off, that's not un-American, it's "business."
MEANWHILE, we blacks are a group, who know we were brought over here so whites have a plaything. A truly sinister cat-and-mouse "relationship" where death for the black is a very-real possibility at any time. If Comcast rips us off, it's living up to exactly what America stands for, and being forced to say otherwise is the ultimate mental torture of the Orwellian kind.
Don't really know how y'all are gonna square that circle,...
Michael The Magnificent,
"It would establish that he is a violent thug and a criminal."
I'm thinking, through their fear, white guys must view blacks as 10 feet tall - at least.
Little ol' black ladies have less fear.
Our fists are "Hammers Of God" - even those welded by 18-year old kids, just out of high school, against a trained officer of the law, outfitted with all the latest gear the fucking PENTAGON can lay on him.
I can see that - it makes *perfect* sense.
Especially when I consider whites and our gigantic cocks.
Y'all can't admit it, but blacks just loom large in the white imagination,...
Black people always deserve to die in this maniac's eyes. All he wants is a reason.
And yet you have no criticism of the people who actually kill the most young black men. Somehow Michael K's the bad guy.
Trayvon smoked pot and made himself some "drank" - good enough for Michael K:
And was pounding some guy's head into the pavement - it's touching to watch you overlook that little detail. It's almost as though you're dishonest, as well as stupid.
"Birkel chose to make something of nothing, ... to seize the opportunity to self-aggrandizingly praise "the right.""
How dare he do that, when you were in the middle of praising yourself!
Nobody gives a shit about Traygone Martin. Just like nobody (with the exception of the plantation mammy Althouse) gives a shit about the rantings of an e-begging talentless race pimp.
Zimmerman is a free man, because he was able to get excellent legal representation to the media lies and corrupt state and federal government.
I am no fan of the police and if the ballistics results show that Brown was running away or 35 feet away and unarmed, then the outrage is justified.
I would have a lot more respect for the looters and arsonists if they were going after police substations or government buildings instead of convenience stores.
Especially when I consider whites and our gigantic cocks.
Well, at least now we know what you do with your time when you're not stamping your feet and/or begging for charity.
In light of the format changes here our hostess should consider a new name for the blog. How about something along the lines of Crackhouse?
Even if Brown was the guy in the video, the police are at fault for the aftermath. Wouldn't more competent departments come out and say something about the robbery within hours instead of a week later? And actually say something about the fact that you have witnesses saying the kid was shot with his hands up.
The. Crack Emcee:
You will please point to a single fact I got wrong. Big cities are largely one-party towns. Big cities are almost always run by Democrats. Saint Louis is such a town. These cities are alleged to treat blacks particularly poorly, including sticking them in ghettos.
The conclusions one can draw from these facts may be debated, however.
Here is Big Mike giving the one finger salute to the world on Drudge.
One finger salute
Here is Big Mike giving folks the Vice Lords gang sign.
Vice Lords gang sign
Here is Big Mike roughing up the Quick Trip clerk while robbing the store. The other guy you see in the picture is Dorian Johnson, the witness to the shooting.
Quick Trip
So the victim of the national tragedy Big Mike Brown and the eyewitness to the national tragedy Dorian Johnson just robbed a convenience store moments before the national tragedy?
I had a sociology teacher in undergrad back in 1983 (Jessie Pitts a French immigrant, actually rather conservative, and one of the best professors I ever had) tell our class that the police had a pariah complex. Seeing themselves as looked down on by the rest of society that didn't understand how hard what they did was, or appreciate how much they did for that society. Along with that they see themselves as superior to the thankless public they so selflessly serve.
A Thin Blue Line indeed.
David:
Why would you assume I don't know black folks? Are you clairvoyant? Beyond lifelong friendships, romantic relations, sleepovers, fighting with and against, working alongside, learning from, going to church with, attending weddings and funerals, helping when they're sick, playing sports with and against, living beside, taking casseroles when they're ill or suffer a loss, inviting to parties,
Well gosh, you have me pegged.
And as a Native American who has lived and worked on a reservation, I question whether you can understand me.
Pookie Number 2,
"Trayvon smoked pot and made himself some "drank" - good enough for Michael K:
And was pounding some guy's head into the pavement - it's touching to watch you overlook that little detail. It's almost as though you're dishonest, as well as stupid."
Zimmerman now says he should've stayed in his truck - never followed Trayvon in the first place - just as the dispatcher told him. Then he never would've been touched.
But, like all white guys, he thought a gun made him a big man.
Great White Hunter not heap big ambition no mo,..
Birkel,
"You will please point to a single fact I got wrong. Big cities are largely one-party towns. Big cities are almost always run by Democrats. Saint Louis is such a town. These cities are alleged to treat blacks particularly poorly, including sticking them in ghettos.
The conclusions one can draw from these facts may be debated, however."
No they cannot because we have the EVIDENCE:
Black poverty was from WHITE'S RACISM - not Democrats.
St. Louis' demise was from WHITE'S RACISM - not Democrats.
Detroit's demise was from WHITE'S RACISM - not Democrats.
Chicago' demise was from WHITE'S RACISM - not Democrats.
This country's main malfunction is WHITE'S RACISM - not Democrats.
That's what you get wrong,...
Birkel,
"Why would you assume I don't know black folks? Are you clairvoyant? Beyond lifelong friendships, romantic relations, sleepovers, fighting with and against, working alongside, learning from, going to church with, attending weddings and funerals, helping when they're sick, playing sports with and against, living beside, taking casseroles when they're ill or suffer a loss, inviting to parties,
Well gosh, you have me pegged."
And yet after spending all that time with "black folks" - you have told me - you know we, collectively, don't want reparations.
"Black folks" have told you this.
"Black folks" have also told you, collectively, we hold no anger for the past and it's just The Crack Emcee who feels this way. Right? "Black folks" told you this? They're just fine - that's what Ferguson's "black folks" maybe told you?
You're either a liar or a liar,...
Crack: "Black poverty was from WHITE'S RACISM - not Democrats"
LOL
Here crack gives away the game again.
At no point does crack miss an opportunity to decry white republican racism...all the while attempting to rewrite history to whitewash democrat party racism.
Crack is simply doing what his white lefty betters want him to do.
And he's happy to, really.
Birches said...
...And actually say something about the fact that you have witnesses saying the kid was shot with his hands up.
No kid was shot. Brown was 18.
George Zimmerman is to white as Crack is to employed.
Analogies are racist.
Zimmerman now says he should've stayed in his truck - never followed Trayvon in the first place - just as the dispatcher told him. Then he never would've been touched.
Of course he should have stayed in his truck. But the reason Trayvon died is because he was pounding Zimmerman's head into the pavement, not because of his affinity for pot, which was your dishonest accusation.
And you know this, but you lack the character to acknowledge it.
Attorney: Dorian Johnson confirms he, Brown robbed store
I've been pulled over for taillights out twice. I'm white. Both officers were white and it was in rural Louisiana.
One of the sheriffs deputies detained me for about 15-20 minutes, while he waited to find out if he could arrest me on something. At some point I put my hands in my pockets, and he's like get your hands out of your pocket. He was hands down the most gung ho and stupid officer I've ever come across.
The Crack Emcee:
You should speak for yourself and for those you know.
My friends have spoken to me. And I can recount what they said. You cannot faithfully do so.
Also, Democrats run Saint Louis. That is a fact.
Birkel: "And as a Native American who has lived and worked on a reservation, I question whether you can understand me."
The one where Birkel plays his very own race card.
"'Birkel chose to make something of nothing, ... to seize the opportunity to self-aggrandizingly praise "the right.'
"How dare he do that, when you were in the middle of praising yourself!"
On the contrary, Birkel did his bit before I started praising myself. Get your chronology straight.
A 6'4" (or taller?), 300lbs dude whooping up on a small female store clerk.
No wonder crack is all lovey-dovey with this guy.
Now that's the kind of courage that crack is always going on about!
AP has this story, describing statements by Dorian Johnson, who was with Brown at the convenience store and when he was shot.
Dorian Johnson has told reporters a different story. He said an officer ordered him and Brown onto the sidewalk, then grabbed his friend's neck and tried to pull him into the car before brandishing his weapon and firing. He said Brown started to run and the officer pursued him, firing multiple times.
Is a lone police officer really going to try to grab a 6-4 inch 295 pound by the neck (before drawing his weapon) and pull him into a police car? I will not say that Johnson is lying. He could be but more likely this is how he thought the physical altercation began. But that does not sound very plausible to me.
Anger, fear, suspicion, recklessness, racial animosity, carelessness, foolishness. All these things in one simple incident. Now Brown is dead and the officer is under a cloud and the community is in turmoil.
Would Brown really attack a police officer in broad daylight in the middle of a street? Would a lone police officer really try to pull a huge powerful man into a car (and let him get close enough to get his hands on the weapon?) Did Dorian Johnson actually understand what he was seeing? Did Brown really run away or put his hands up? Why would an officer shoot a suspect who had put his hands up, if he did? Why did the officer even get out of the car? If all he was trying to do was move them off the street, why not just tell them to do that through his amplifier (if he had one.)? Why would a lone cop leave his car to confront two men, one of them obviously very large and strong? Is the AP story even accurate?
Something counter intuitive happened here. The alleged conduct of both the officer and Brown make no sense. Was the officer so consumed by fear or racial rage that he attacked a 300 pound man with his hands? Was Brown so angry or fearful that he would make an unprovoked attack on an armed police officer?
And yet it happened. I want to believe that white police officers do not spend their days looking for chances to empty their weapons into young black males. I want to believe that young black males, whatever their faults, don't attack police just for the hell of it. Usually this is the case. But it seems that one of those things may have happened here. And of course it does not happen just here.
And we think we are improving things by blaming an entire race of people for what happened?
I'm sorry, David. If you lot make the rules then I'm happy to play by your rules.
However, if you'd like to get rid of the identity politics then I'm perfectly willing to argue logically. And you will be displeased with those results as well.
Also, I see how you let stand your assumption that I don't know black people. That's fine even as it proves you are of no account. I always thought it odd, when watching "The White Shadow" that the television high school and my high school shared the same name. But yeah, I don't know any black people.
Also, no, David. We do not think we are improving things by blaming all whites.
Do you?
Here's a thought to ponder:
Perhaps the accomplice to the robbery lied.
Now I know it's crazy to say somebody who has stolen might not be completely honest. But bear with me...
Bickel: "Also, I see how you let stand your assumption that I don't know black people."
I never said that. I said I know some black people and that knowledge infused my conclusion. I said nothing about you. You took it that way.
I completely accept your representation about your personal knowledge of black people. That has helped you to reach your conclusions. My experience has led me to my conclusions.
Also from Birkel: "Also, no, David. We do not think we are improving things by blaming all whites."
I did not single out whites or blacks as the ones blaming/being blamed. Each group is doing some blaming.
I do not think either group bears general responsibility for the overall societal issue, and never have said so. But since we have a vocal cadre of white people here who argue that whites have no responsibility, I emphasize that in many of my comments. And it pisses some of you off so much when anyone disagrees with you. So that's fun too.
And finally:
Birkel said...
Here's a thought to ponder:
Perhaps the accomplice to the robbery lied.
He's not an accomplice. The police have not charged him and do not intend to charge him, as I understand it. But of course he could have lied, accomplice or not. I think it more likely he was unclear on what was going on. I really have trouble believing that the cop would try to pull a 300 pound man into the front seat of his car by the neck as a matter of choice.
2000 Census; "The racial makeup of the city was 44.75% White, 52.41% African American, 0.11% Native American ..."
2010 Census; "The racial makeup of the city was 29.3% White, 67.4% African American, 0.4% Native American ..."
Ferguson MO was once a small, suburban town, full of white people. Then some middle-class blacks moved in. Then their black-trash friends followed. Now it is well on the way to being another black hellhole. No news here. Those white cops need to put down their assault rifles and tune up their resumes. The gettin' won't be good much longer.
If you cringe whenever you get pulled over because you're so afraid MAYBE there is some irrational thinking going on and assumptions that you are being pulled over for racial reasons. Acting irrationally because of your fears will often dictate what happens when cops pull you over. It reminds me of the Alfred Hitchcock episode where the woman gets raped then tells her boyfriend the man she sees on the street raped her. So he kills the guy. Then after getting his revenge his gf sees another man walking down the street and says that he raped her. Such a person is not looking at men with any degree of rationality. Most men who are walking down the street are not rapists, and certainly didn't rape her. But all she can see is the rape.
Dorin Johnson and Piaget Crenshaw are the two known witnesses to Michael Brown's killing who have discussed the incident on video. Their accounts are consistent in a broad sense. They do not necessarily conflict in details, but the account details do not overlap in all respects.
Both are very clear and lucid in their descriptions. From a point of view of presentation and speaking ability, they will make good witnesses. Of course they were not under cross examination and the questioning was reasonably friendly. But they make a pretty good case that the officer chased Brown down the street with his gun and continued firing even though Brown was no longer in close proximity to him.
What happened at the very outset is less clear in their interviews. Crenshaw apparently did not see anything until Brown was being chased on foot. She was watching from her apartment balcony and asserts that Brown turned and raised his hands but the officer continued to shoot him.
Johnson says that the officer reached for Brown and grabbed his arm through the window while the officer was still in the car. He describes the officer as initiating this contact, though apparently the officer had earlier tried to exit the car and the door had been shut on him. Whether he opened the door into Brown or Brown grabbed the door and pushed it of his own volition is not clear. Johnson says that Brown never grabbed for the officer's gun. Johnson was only a few feet away at the time this occurred.
At the time of the interview Johnson had not been interviewed by the police, despite having offered an interview through the local NAACP chapter.
These two young people on their face appear to be credible witnesses. Long way to go though. But what they say raises questions about why the cop pursued and whether he was ever in serious danger from Brown.
Wow David's working overtime on this. To me, there's very little that "makes no sense" here. Commenters have made much of the fact that the officer is said to have not been looking for a robbery suspect. Exactly!
But Brown did know that he had just committed a robbery. So how exactly do you expect him to behave when confronted by the police so soon after the robbery? The officer had the initial initiative in making the stop, but lost it due to Brown's knowledge of what he had just done.
It was a recipe for a bad outcome, when the man with the gun was caught off guard. I bet this would have come out far better had it been that the officer knew he was dealing with a robbery suspect.
BTW David, For someone running away Brown's back is surprisingly free of bullet holes.
"And actually knowing some actual black people." -- David
Tell me, David, what work is the word 'actually' doing in the sentence you typed? Does the word actually mean anything? I'll give you a hint, nobody starts numbering with one and then never quite makes it to two. Similarly nobody uses the word actually without meaning the opposite should be applied to some other case.
A sentence that said "I suspect as much due to the conversations I have had with the black people I know" does not suffer the logical flaw the sentence you chose to type actually suffers. (Did you see how the word actually in my sentence points to two cases that differ?
You typed a statement. If you meant to type something else the best route is to recant and try to clarify. Instead you defend what you wrote earlier, implying you actually meant exactly what you wrote. (See what the word actually does in that sentence?)
Care to try again?
As to the witnesses appearing credible:
There is a reason our trials are adversarial. The belief is that we are best able to get to truth by allowing each side an opportunity to examine witnesses. Whether that works in practice is an issue about which people vehemently disagree.
That said, I don't know why anybody should care about witness statements to this point. I'm much more concerned with the forensic evidence which will be handled by the state police. From that we will know if the physical evidence and witness statements are reliable.
Finally, David, let me repeat that there was an accomplice to the robbery. If we enter a store together, I take goods from behind the counter, hand them to you and we walk out of the store -- as the videotape shows -- then we are co-conspirators in a crime. We are accomplices. It's definitional.
"UPDATE: The FPD's police chief has admitted Officer Wilson did not know Brown was a robbery suspect when the interaction began, making it irrelevant to the question of whether the shooting was justified."
The rules are the same for civilians and police. You can't base a self-defense claim [or a resisting arrest claim] on facts about the deceased that YOU did not know before or concurrently with the shooting.
I'm sure this won't be posted but here goes:
What about Dorin Johnson? He was with Michael Brown, but as you see in the surveillance video, he put the stolen items taken by Michael Brown and handed to him, back on the counter. Why did he do that? Why didn't Dorin get shot? These answers might help us understand more about the young man who was shot and killed. Was it fair to shoot and kill him like a dog in the street? NO! Is there a reason for it? Very likely. And it might not be racism. What did Dorin Johnson get from his parents that Michael Brown didn't? Why did Dorin Johnson know that it was wrong to steal? That's the conversation Black people should be having. Let's start talking about that as a way of determining what the real problem is? There is racial profiling without a doubt. But why is there racial profiling? What happened to make law enforcement go to such measures. We like to think its just systemic racism and for many things it is, but could it have something to do with criminal behavior? Could it have something to do with lack of respect for authority? Could we just stop calling responses to bad behavior racism when its clearly something else. Then and only then will America begin to deal with its turbulent racial problems. Just my opinion, but like I said, this won't be posted.
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