Althouse: "What was almost worse than the actual assault for them was witnessing how their university treated them."

३० जुलै, २०१४

"What was almost worse than the actual assault for them was witnessing how their university treated them."

"Rape was like a football game, and that I should look back on that game to figure out what I would do differently."

That's a quote from an End Rape on Campus activist that appears in "Campus sexual assault bill unveiled with bipartisan backing in Senate/Law would require colleges and universities to create a confidential adviser to guide victims through reporting process."

We're told that the football analogy came from some official at the University of North Carolina. We don't have a transcript of the conversation, and I wonder what exactly did the official liken to a football game? The word "rape" embodies a conclusion about what happened. But, you know, even if it was a complicated interaction that the official didn't think should be called rape, the football analogy is terrible.

८१ टिप्पण्या:

Bob Ellison म्हणाले...: This all got going with a single Time article.

When I went with my son to a college orientation thing recently, they offered Q&A to the parents. The first question was basically "what are you doing to stanch the flood of rapes we're reading about?"; ३०/७/१४, ३:३४ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: The Feds should ban investigations of rape by College Administrators. If people are being raped, get the police -- and the real police, not the University Police who have a vested interest in keeping things hushed up -- involved.

Putting that extra buffer -- in the form of "concerned" University employees -- in between a raped student and law enforcement is a great hindrance IMO.

In the Notre Dame example (laughing at the Guardian calling it 'prestigious'), would the Police in South Bend have sat on the case for weeks? Doubt it.; ३०/७/१४, ३:४७ PM
madAsHell म्हणाले...: It's a game of....ahem....inches??; ३०/७/१४, ३:५३ PM
Birkel म्हणाले...: The University of North Carolina systematically helped athletes cheat on their academics. Both basketball and football players were encouraged to take no-show classes in the African American Studies Department. There was widespread academic fraud.

Apparently the majority of liberal professors and administrators at UNC-CH are racists and sexists, for what it's worth.; ३०/७/१४, ३:५४ PM
YoungHegelian म्हणाले...: Why is a University involved in a felony investigation at all? Do universities have investigative units for other crimes ("Oh, you want Prof. Whozit in the Fraud & Bunco Dept.)?

If you've been raped, robbed, assaulted, beaten up, shot, swindled, whatever at a University you do what the rest of humanity does: You call the police.

For a bunch of women who are the top of the heap in world history, American college women just can't get over wanting to having Daddy in some form or another run interference for their lives.; ३०/७/१४, ४:०२ PM
CDurham म्हणाले...: If colleges are such hot beds or racism and crime - such as rape, why would any parent send his or her kid to one? Or, perhaps, is this just another example of a manufactured crises used as a pretext for the federal government to expand its reach?; ३०/७/१४, ४:१२ PM
n.n म्हणाले...: Rape is like a poker game, which is essentially an exercise in risk management.

Okay, I call. How many football players have committed rape? How many false accusations have been lodged against them? What is the distribution of rapists by their vocation and hobby? Surely there must be some specific cause to create an association between rape and football.

Also, was it rape or rape-rape?

I'm surprised they did not use the obvious simile: rape is like democratic politics, with it's characteristic exploitation of leverage.; ३०/७/१४, ४:१९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: First: if you get assaulted, go to the police. Maybe universities are bad at responding to criminal complaints. So? I imagine that delis and gas stations are, too. That's not what they're for. We wouldn't take seriously complaints that the clerk at the Quik-E-Mart didn't handle a rape complaint correctly.

Second: this is
bull.
shit.
There are certainly people out there who would use this analogy -- "you've got to look at the tape and figure out where things went wrong." Old-timers raised on high school football. But those same people would never think to use that analogy on a female student, because the same kind of brain that would produce that analogy wouldn't picture the co-ed being in a locker room after the game.; ३०/७/१४, ४:३६ PM
khesanh0802 म्हणाले...: The simple, but too obvious solution, is to turn the matter over to the local police (as many have said before). Why must we make the matter more complicated and add one more layer of administration within an institution that already too heavy with administrators - and ineffective ones at that?

The Cambridge, Madison, or New Haven police are incapable of handling a rape investigation? I doubt it. A small town force - Williamsburg, MA, Hanover, NH, Oberlin, OH -can't do it? They'll most likely give it to the state police.

If I were a college president I would want to wash my hands of the legal aspects of sexual assault as quickly as I could. I would endeavor to provide medical and counseling services as I would for any student, but handling both the legal and medical issues would only result in double jeopardy for my institution.

Think of the deterrent effect when a student knows that he/she will be faced with, at least, a criminal investigation which could lead to prosecution or possible charges of perjury.; ३०/७/१४, ५:०३ PM
The Godfather म्हणाले...: I have three granddaughters. The oldest will be of college age in 8 years. So I hope they've solved this rape crisis by then.

If they haven't, I've got a great suggestion that will save the colleges lots of money. Apparently, rape and sexual assault are illegal in most states, and these states have agencies, called police departments, that exist for the very purpose of investigating crimes and arresting the (supposed) perpetrators. The states also have institutions, called courts, that have the job of determining the guilt of innocence of persons accused of crimes.

So if the colleges simply get out of the rape business and refer alleged victims to the local police, they can save the money earmarked for these counselors and reduce tuition accordingly.

(The only absurd thing in my recommendation is the statement about reducing tuition.); ३०/७/१४, ५:१४ PM
Bob Ellison म्हणाले...: My four sons (I have no daughters) are at risk.

They have targets on their backs.

(I'm using the stupid journalistic affect of making each sentence a paragraph.

Thanks for reading.)

I'm angry about this.; ३०/७/१४, ५:३० PM
Fen म्हणाले...: No no. Sexual Assault is no big deal. I know from reading the #YesAllWomen campaign and the campus stats that define "sexual assault" as having consenual sex after a glass of wine.

Its not rape rape. The feminists have watered the term down to nothing.; ३०/७/१४, ६:०० PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: Whether bad sexual behavior is the crime of rape or not, colleges can have behavior requirements and disciplinary rules. What rules do you want at the school where your daughter attends? Do you want the same rules for your son? These are serious questions that are separate from criminal law.; ३०/७/१४, ६:०६ PM
Birkel म्हणाले...: In light of Lawrence v Texas I am not sure public colleges can have "behavior requirements and disciplinary rules" that impact the decisions of adults to engage in sexual relations. After all, moral outrage is no longer sufficient reason to interfere with the penumbra of rights one has under the 14th Amendment, right? That is not criminal law.

The rule I want is:
Once you hit the age of majority all rules must be applied equally, without respect to race, creed, color, religion, national origin, disability or gender.

(And possibly some others I forget offhand.)

You, Althouse?; ३०/७/१४, ६:२८ PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson म्हणाले...: Well, beyond the fact that (as several people have repeatedly said) rape is and always should be a police matter ...

We might start by stipulating that where two manifestly inebriated people have (otherwise consensual) sex, either no rape has occurred or else each has raped the other. That ought to cut down the accusations by a factor of four or so.; ३०/७/१४, ६:३४ PM
Bob Ellison म्हणाले...: Ann Althouse said, "What rules do you want at the school where your daughter attends? Do you want the same rules for your son?"

Targets on their backs.

Don't you think so? This is not a justice system. This is a game. My sons are on the losing side.; ३०/७/१४, ६:४५ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Althouse -- that's the response one generally hears when one suggests the criminal justice system handle it: "schools can have behavior rules."

But this article is about how the university treated the COMPLAINANTS (women, it seems). But there isn't a "complainant" when there's a rule violation. If the university wants to say, "it's against the rules for you to engage in any drunken physical contact with anyone" (because we can't say anymore, can we, "with someone of the opposite sex") sure. But that's nothing at all like what's going on.

In fact it's disingenuous for you to suggest otherwise. Just look at the article. It has nothing to do with the university policing campus behavior. It's about the university providing JUSTICE to VICTIMS.

So you certainly have some useful questions about behavior codes, but that has nothing at all to do with providing JUSTICE. Universities shouldn't be in the business of doing that. (Why should it be a "business" at all?); ३०/७/१४, ६:४५ PM
Michael K म्हणाले...: "handling both the legal and medical issues would only result in double jeopardy for my institution. "

That was not the case until recently when men started to file Title IX suits. That should help considerably.

My youngest daughter graduated from U of Arizona last year. She is very attractive and social and she saw none of this. She did call the cops when a guy was beating up his girlfriend. He started for her when she yelled at him to leave her alone. She locked herself in her car and called 911. She testified against him this spring.

Most of this is bullshit.

The poor little girls in the military want combat duty but yell rape when another soldier grabs her bottom.; ३०/७/१४, ६:४६ PM
YoungHegelian म्हणाले...: Whether bad sexual behavior is the crime of rape or not, colleges can have behavior requirements and disciplinary rules

"Behavior requirements" do not come enforced by force of federal mandate. If Gentleman&Ladies U wants to expel a young man for not holding the door open for a young lady, that's their business. If Uptight U wants to expel a student for wanking off, that's their business, too.

But when the federal government weighs in and determines what's acceptable private behavior that isn't illegal elsewhere, that's a whole different kettle of fish. That the government is involved in this at all, when there are perfectly adequate courts & police to do the job, is simply frightening.; ३०/७/१४, ७:०७ PM
Patrick Henry was right! म्हणाले...: Professor, what we want is due process, which has, for four hundred years, been thought to include the right to notice of the charges, the right to an impartial tribunal, the right to confront accusers and to stand silent without any adverse inference. See, Sir Thomas More for the reason for these things.

Progressives are against due process and the rule of law. They are the Henry VIII of this story.; ३०/७/१४, ७:१४ PM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: I'd go with baseball. First base, second base, third base, home.

The rape is when she regrets it.

I suppose you could be on the mound as well.; ३०/७/१४, ७:३० PM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: Total taboo on the thought crime of thinking that a sexually attractive 18 to 22 age female has any responsability for her being a sexual object hunted by male college students.

Cotton Mather would be proud.; ३०/७/१४, ७:३० PM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: Rapism.; ३०/७/१४, ७:३१ PM
Chef Mojo म्हणाले...: Althouse said:

Whether bad sexual behavior is the crime of rape or not, colleges can have behavior requirements and disciplinary rules. What rules do you want at the school where your daughter attends? Do you want the same rules for your son? These are serious questions that are separate from criminal law.

Yet, just as federal law trumps state law, if a crime is committed at on a college campus, local law and law enforcement should take precedence over anything the college has passed as a bylaw, rule or regulation.

At the very least, a college, in making its rules, should use the same standards of evidence that the law requires in order to level an accusation against a student, faculty member or administrator. In NO case should they "try" the "accused" within the aegis of the institution. If there is a crime, then it is immediately turned over to the state. If the accused is left on their own recognizance, then they stay matriculated as if nothing has happened. I don't really give a rat's ass what the "Take Back The Night" harridans scream, there's a presumption of innocence in our criminal justice system.

Colleges and universities are not law enforcement agencies. They have no business messing around where they don't belong.; ३०/७/१४, ७:३४ PM
holdfast म्हणाले...: Ann:

Sure, they can have "rules" - no loud stereos after 10pm, etc. - things that can be relatively easily enforced by a Residence Advisor, or even the Campus Cowboys if necessary. But when you are talking about something that is, potentially, a felony, or a life-changing slander, then it's time to let the professionals take over. Especially when it's been demonstrated over and over that the college administrators have no interest in providing the accused with even the most rudimentary elemets of administrative or procedural fairness.; ३०/७/१४, ८:१२ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: You want to say a school can't have a disciplinary code?

The fact that there is also state criminal law does not eliminate the school's own rules. There's also civil law. You can sue someone in tort.

Where do you get this idea that a higher level of enforcement must always be used?

I agree that the failure to call the police is evidence that bears on the seriousness of the complaint, but that doesn't mean the school can't enforce its rules.

I agree that there needs to be due process but the process due in a criminal trial is different from what is due in other proceedings.

I might suggest that schools ban all sexual behavior under the influence of alcohol. You're kicked out of school if you're caught. Now, what do you think of that?

Or how about simply a rule against sexual intercourse for unmarried students? You agree to the code if you choose this school. Agree?; ३०/७/१४, ८:१४ PM
Birkel म्हणाले...: Where do the penumbras of the 14th Amendment stop, Althouse? Are you willing to argue the university policies are narrowly tailored? If not, what would they say?; ३०/७/१४, ८:२५ PM
khesanh0802 म्हणाले...: Ann;

I can't disagree within your clearly drawn rules of conduct. The problem is that the schools don't seem to enforce them.; ३०/७/१४, ८:२८ PM
Fred Drinkwater म्हणाले...: So, just for laughs, I'll toss in that my re-introduction to college life (when my kid started at MIT) featured a stabbing assault on a student in my kid's dorm during the first week. Oh, and it was a non-MIT girl from one of those famous colleges just to the west, inflicting a dozen stab wounds on her sleeping ex-boyfriend. He had not invited her in, no, she had sweet-talked her way past security and and into the room, all on her own initiative.

Boy was I thrilled to be brought up to date.

And yes, Cambridge police handled the case. Of course, MIT could not very well expel her for rules violations, could they?; ३०/७/१४, ८:४६ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Grid your loins on the gird-iron?; ३०/७/१४, ८:४७ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Homecoming was met with flowers in the attic?; ३०/७/१४, ८:५१ PM
Chef Mojo म्हणाले...: I might suggest that schools ban all sexual behavior under the influence of alcohol. You're kicked out of school if you're caught. Now, what do you think of that?

I'm all for it! If the kid and his/her parents go into it knowing, then great.

Or how about simply a rule against sexual intercourse for unmarried students? You agree to the code if you choose this school. Agree?

I totally agree.

Listen, I live near Charlottesville and the University of Virginia, which has the strictest honor code of any university in the country, barring the military academies. and every student knows what's involved going in. UVA enforces that code, too. If a student is found to be in violation of the Code, there is only one punishment, and that is expulsion.

Down the road is Liberty University, which has precisely the sexual codes you describe. Again, expulsion.

I have no problem with universities regulating themselves, but not at the expense of criminal justice. Notice the emphasis on criminal and not civil. Once something happens on campus that passes the threshold of criminality, then It goes to law enforcement to either clear or charge.

It should not be up to the university to "prove" anything, Althouse. What you describe and seem to support is too similar to the English church during the reign of Henry II wishing to try its own clerics for criminal offenses, instead of being handed over the the secular authorities, as the king demanded. Eventually, this struggle became one of the foundations of our modern concepts concerning the primacy of our law over religion, as long as the law did not did not interfere with the practice of that religion. The Church (Catholic) has hated it ever since.

I'm seeing so many cases where the university is acting in the role of the Church in the 12th century, demanding that the state adhere to the Church's standards of criminal justice. The universities in question often take a French judicial view of presuming the accused as guilty, and placing the burden of innocence upon the accused, which goes against the letter and spirit of the law that the rest of the country follows.; ३०/७/१४, ९:०१ PM
The Godfather म्हणाले...: @Althouse: Of course a college or university can make and enforce rules of conduct. They even did that back in the olden times when I was in college. A male student managed to get into a college swimming pool at night and was caught skinny dipping with his girl friend. He was expelled or perhaps even expunged.

But today the colleges, either on their own or under federal pressure, are choosing to adjudicate issues under the names of felonies, such as rape or sexual assault. And they are doing so where the facts are disputed. If a young man is expelled from college because he has been adjudicated as having committed sexual assault, where he claims the act was consensual and she decided, several months after the fact, that it wasn't, his life may be ruined.

As I said earlier, if there's an epidemic of rape on campus, get the cops involved. If there's a he said - she said dispute about whether the sex was consensual, then the college might want to suspend/expel/expunge one or both of the participants for "conduct unbecoming an Ivy man [woman]".; ३०/७/१४, ९:२८ PM
President-Mom-Jeans म्हणाले...: How about no sexual contact between members of the same sex?

Still want your federal funds going to this hypothetical school?

Ugly.; ३०/७/१४, ९:३१ PM
Paco Wové म्हणाले...: Colleges are doing this (setting up their own parallel kangaroo court system) because the Feds are making them do it.

And yes, Althouse, your rules would be fine by me, assuming they were enforced equally for all students.

That seems to be the problem with the current situation; rules are enforced, but only against men. When it comes to sexual conduct, women do not appear to be considered moral agents. I would think this would be considered insulting by most college women, and maybe it is, but apparently not by all. Nor is my preferred viewpoint encouraged.; ३०/७/१४, ९:४० PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: It seems to me that there is a serious cultural breakdown. College is seen as a time for having a lot of sex, and an inevitable consequence is a fair proportion of bad sex, on a continuum that goes all the way to rape, but the few rapes that warrant criminal punishment are only a small part of the problem. What is the solution?; ३०/७/१४, ९:५६ PM
Freeman Hunt म्हणाले...: Banning premarital sex at a college would probably be a huge relief to students after they finished being angry about it. The pressure to have a sexual partner would be off, the mental energy devoted to that pursuit would be liberated, and a lot of bad sex would never happen.; ३०/७/१४, १०:११ PM
chillblaine म्हणाले...: Women don't want to be re-traumatized. Law enforcement must be aware this fact, and they should demonstrate leadership and sensitivity with their due process. The college shouldn't take any action until law enforcement has at least made an arrest or indictment. The college can have their process, but it should be subordinate to that.; ३०/७/१४, १०:३१ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: So a twenty-year old auto mechanic with no High School Degree gets treated differently than the Campus student for the same activity with the same woman? One gets Police, one gets Campus Police? Is there any point on the axis where the mechanic gets the same treatment as the student?; ३०/७/१४, १०:४९ PM
Fen म्हणाले...: You want to say a school can't have a disciplinary code?

What does your disciplinary code say about murder? Do you call the police or handle yourselves with some kind of faculty tribunal? Is this tribunal a kangaroo court or does the accused have certain rights?

I don't think you understand how a man's life can be destroyed by something like this.

And I'm tired of little princess snowflakes never being responsible for their actions. They talk about "privilege"... hell, American women are the most coddled people on the planet. Not held responsible for the reproductive choices, not adult enough to pay for their own birth control.; ३०/७/१४, ११:३८ PM
Fen म्हणाले...: "What is the solution?"

Women need to start being responsible for their choices, thats the solution.

You gave consent but woke up with regrets? Too bad.
You chose to go to a frat party and get plastered and you woke up with 3 guys? Too bad.

Just because you have regrets the next morning does not mean you were raped. Grow up.; ३०/७/१४, ११:४३ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I think it's good they have an adviser, another person for the falsely accused to sue for damages.; ३०/७/१४, ११:४५ PM
Michael Fitzgerald म्हणाले...: What were the consequences when Duke university and 88 of her esteemed faculty members falsely tried and convicted 4 male students on a bogus rape charge? I know the state D.A. lost his job and might have been disbarred, but what about the school and those university professors who led the lynch mob? Any fallout at all? Was justice served?; ३१/७/१४, १:४० AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Mrs. Althouse;
"serious cultural breakdown"

I'm astonished. A retreat from the "sexual revolution". Now from everything I ever read from you, and I have been lurking here for years, that's something I never expected to see you write.
Has hell frozen over, did pigs fly?; ३१/७/१४, २:१८ AM
lonetown म्हणाले...: Seems like an apt analogy, there's

scoring
fumbling
passes
pass interceptions
holding
off sides
face mask
crack back block?; ३१/७/१४, ६:१४ AM
hawkeyedjb म्हणाले...: "What were the consequences when Duke university and 88 of her esteemed faculty members falsely tried and convicted 4 male students on a bogus rape charge??

Many of the faculty members moved on to more prestigious positions. Not one was demoted, censured or reprimanded.

If the Duke "rape" case had been handled on campus, the students would today be branded as rapists, those involved in the railroading would be praised, and the federal government would nod approvingly.; ३१/७/१४, ७:४४ AM
Ignorance is Bliss म्हणाले...: I don't have a real problem with the idea of the school enforcing a code of conduct. However, to adjudicate a he said/she said dispute with a 50.01% probability burden of proof is not reasonable. Especially when the accuser gets an adviser to help them with the system, but the accused does not. And when the federal government is threatening to withhold funds if the 'correct' verdict is not reached enough of the time.; ३१/७/१४, ७:५५ AM
Matt Sablan म्हणाले...: "Putting that extra buffer -- in the form of "concerned" University employees -- in between a raped student and law enforcement is a great hindrance IMO."

-- If any organization but a college tried to do that, it would be obstruction of justice and full on war on women.; ३१/७/१४, ७:५८ AM
Matt Sablan म्हणाले...: "(I'm using the stupid journalistic affect of making each sentence a paragraph."

-- That's actually a carry over from the printed world, where columns were smooshed together, so having line breaks was a necessary thing for legibility, sort of like the double space after the period.; ३१/७/१४, ८:०१ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: "I'm astonished. A retreat from the "sexual revolution". Now from everything I ever read from you, and I have been lurking here for years, that's something I never expected to see you write."

You should read more carefully!; ३१/७/१४, ८:०९ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: "What does your disciplinary code say about murder?"

There is much overlap between any school's disciplinary code and criminal law. What does a high school do if teachers catch 2 boys in a fistfight? Should they be turned over to the police?

I think people here are having trouble thinking straight because there are a number of issues and you have one thing that you feel very strongly about. But there is more than one thing going on here.

The thing you feel strongly about is: A man will be falsely accused and not given due process and unfairly punished.

I agree that's a huge problem, but it's not the only problem, and you shouldn't over-solve one problem and leave other problems unsolved.

Do you not believe that there is damaging sexual abuse that goes on on campus and that women and the parents of daughters have reason to want the schools to improve the experience for female students? And I don't see why men and the parents of sons wouldn't also want a campus that is good in the same kinds of ways. Surely, you are not hoping for your son to become active in a fraternity that plots to get females drunk and vulnerable and gets his sexual pleasures that way.; ३१/७/१४, ८:१८ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: If Congress would like to help — as opposed to simply do political theater — the most helpful thing would be to remove the pressure for the 21-year-old drinking age.

I think the core problem is substance abuse.; ३१/७/१४, ८:२१ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: I don't have to explain the connection between making drinking illegal and the kind of drinking that results, do I?; ३१/७/१४, ८:२२ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I remain astonished.; ३१/७/१४, ८:२५ AM
Matt Sablan म्हणाले...: "Should they be turned over to the police?"

-- Matters on the severity of the fight. In general, no, because consensual fighting is a low priority on the police's radar. If one is seriously hurt, or if one got jumped and beaten, that's different.; ३१/७/१४, ८:३१ AM
Peter म्हणाले...: "Why is a University involved in a felony investigation at all?"

So it can apply its own rules of evidence, along with reduced standards of proof?

It's hard not to see this as a demand for kangaroo courts, motivated by gender politics.

In any case, "I want to live dangerously but you must keep me safe!" is an infantile demand. Which must inevitably lead to another imperious demand, that when you say a man is a "rapist" then your assertion must be taken as fact.

For if your word can be questioned in situations in which there may be no witnesses (other than the accused), how can you be sure you'll prevail? And if you can't be sure you'll prevail, then how can you engage in risky behavior without actually taking risks?

Fortunately most adults realize that life is not a roller coaster ride (real thrills but without any real danger). Unfortunately many college students are not really adults.; ३१/७/१४, ८:३८ AM
Brando म्हणाले...: There is this strain of stupidity in society today that says that all sorts of governing authorities should be weighing in on things they are clearly unqualified to weigh in on. Take the NFL for example--all the ado about whether the NFL should have punished Ray Rice more for beating his wife.

My question--why the hell should the NFL have anything to do with that? The NFL should be concerned with things affecting the game itself--maybe take action to prevent injuries, or steroid abuse, cheating, the integrity of the game--not outside criminal conduct. The police and courts should be dealing with Rice--and if they fall short then that's on them.

Likewise, why are schools even investigating these rape allegations? The only thing the school should be doing--when it is not trying to maintain academic excellence, which again seems to be down the priority list as they churn out another generation of fork and spoon operators--is providing counseling for the victims, and referring them to the police. It is absurd to think that any university can appropriately and sufficiently handle a rape investigation. Of course it shouldn't be surprising when they botch it--it's like giving your dog the car keys and getting mad that he drove into a tree, rather than impressed he actually got the engine started (as he has paws, not hands).; ३१/७/१४, ८:४१ AM
Paco Wové म्हणाले...: I agree that at its core this is largely a substance abuse problem. But:

"Surely, you are not hoping for your son to become active in a fraternity that plots to get females drunk and vulnerable and gets his sexual pleasures that way."

There's that "women are not moral agents" thing again.

Drunkenness: something done to women by men.
Not getting plastered: simply beyond her control.; ३१/७/१४, ८:५३ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: "There's that "women are not moral agents" thing again."

False.

I think women should make better decisions about sex and should be truthful to themselves and others about who's responsible for what.

But any young man who thinks it's a game to be won where you take what you can get from a woman who is making bad decisions is a man of bad character.

And if you are raising your son to be that kind of person and cheering him on for scoring, shame on you.; ३१/७/१४, ९:३२ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: And shame on any school officials who think it's a game (of football or whatever) and that students who are finding the climate ugly should figure out how to play the game better.; ३१/७/१४, ९:३४ AM
Fen म्हणाले...: "Do you not believe that there is damaging sexual abuse that goes on on campus and that women and the parents of daughters have reason to want the schools to improve the experience for female students?"

No I do not. The 1 in 5 stat of sexual assaults on campus have been proven false. To get that number, they had to count ANY sexual act under the influence of alchohol as "rape". That means that if my date has a glass of wine at dinner and then we go home and have sex - rape!. Its so much bullshit. And lives are being destroyed to further that lie.

Lets start prosecuting females for rape under the same standard. Inflict it back on them and see how they like it?

And yes, I am very anti-women these days. Feminist crap like the #YesAllWomen nazis blaming all men for the actions of one lunatic gunman have radicalized me.; ३१/७/१४, ९:५१ AM
Fen म्हणाले...: Drunkenness: something done to women by men.
Not getting plastered: simply beyond her control.

Yup. Special little snowflakes all.

"...I think of a man, and then I take away reason and accountability"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wse_hgca220; ३१/७/१४, ९:५५ AM
SeanF म्हणाले...: Ann Althouse: There is much overlap between any school's disciplinary code and criminal law. What does a high school do if teachers catch 2 boys in a fistfight? Should they be turned over to the police?

If two high-school aged boys, from different schools, get into a fistfight in the middle of summer, what would determine whether they "should" be turned over to the police?

Why would (or should) the fistfight happening at school make the decision any more difficult, or the criteria any different?; ३१/७/१४, १०:३१ AM
paul a'barge म्हणाले...: It depends on where you shove the football.; ३१/७/१४, १०:३४ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: @Fen Your answer is so far off from my question that I am not going to say anything in response unless you go back to my words, my exact words, and respond precisely to them. Don't change to your words. You are making a move in argument that says I have wasted my time taking you seriously. But I will give you another chance if you genuinely attempt to answer what I said.; ३१/७/१४, १०:४२ AM
Paco Wové म्हणाले...: "a man of bad character."

Agreed, 100%.

"And if you are raising your son to be that kind of person and cheering him on for scoring, shame on you."

Yeah, that too, but I think you're doing a lot of that "assuming facts not in evidence" thing.

Personalizing a bit, I have only daughters, so I don't look at this from a 'raising sons' point of view. I have attempted to raise my daughters to be responsible people with self-control and situational awareness to help shield them from such blackquards and perilous situations as you describe.; ३१/७/१४, १०:४३ AM
Michelle Dulak Thomson म्हणाले...: Ann,

College is seen as a time for having a lot of sex, and an inevitable consequence is a fair proportion of bad sex, on a continuum that goes all the way to rape, but the few rapes that warrant criminal punishment are only a small part of the problem.

Well, college wasn't "seen" that way by me, FWIW. But "bad sex" isn't actionable, is it? Nor is drunken sex. "The few rapes that warrant criminal punishment" are, and so they should be treated.

What is "the problem," exactly? That it's difficult to punish "bad sex"? Why punish it? It's already punished, definitionally.; ३१/७/१४, ११:०१ AM
mccullough म्हणाले...: I agree that substance abuse is a primary cause of most of these. And I agree the 21 year old drinking age is beyond stupid.

So the best solution I can see is for schools to enforce the drinking age limit (and illegal drugs) pretty harshly against all offenders. First offense is a semester suspension. Second offense is expulsion.; ३१/७/१४, ११:१४ AM
Fen म्हणाले...: @Fen Your answer is so far off from my question that I am not going to say anything in response unless

Its not at all far off from your question. You say denying due process is bad but shouldn't we be more concerned about rape? I say rape is bad but shouldn't we be concerned about due process.

...and then I go on to show you how your concerns about campus rape are unfounded, that the numbers are fake and not as big a problem as you have been led to believe.

unless you go back to my words, my exact words, and respond precisely to them.

Okay here: "Do you not believe that there is damaging sexual abuse that goes on on campus and that women and the parents of daughters have reason to want the schools to improve the experience for female students?"

That was your response to my question about due process for men. You appear to be deflecting - claiming that campus rape is such a problem that due process can take a back seat. I'm merely saying the opposite.

So again, what is your priority?; ३१/७/१४, ११:३८ AM
Fen म्हणाले...: You are making a move in argument that says I have wasted my time taking you seriously

And nice insult. As outlined above, you obviously don't understand my argument to begin with.; ३१/७/१४, ११:४३ AM
hawkeyedjb म्हणाले...: What are the categories of offense for which we should remove due=process protections? Let's not beat around the bush, for that is exactly what the government is demanding, and colleges are agreeing to it.

Should due process only be removed from college proceedings, but retained in the larger society? Why?

If the goal is to get the correct outcomes (more findings of guilt), why should that goal be limited to colleges?

If a man (and it is only men) is found guilty of sexual assault on campus, should he automatically be arrested by the police? Why not? This is not like being expelled for cheating, this is a finding of guilt for a serious crime.; ३१/७/१४, ११:५९ AM
Paco Wové म्हणाले...: Off the top of my head, I think the biggest thing colleges could do to 'improve the experience' – for all students – is to reduce alcohol abuse.

"...only a small part of the problem."

Echoing MDThompson, what is the problem, exactly?; ३१/७/१४, १२:२४ PM
Ignorance is Bliss म्हणाले...: Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

What is "the problem," exactly? That it's difficult to punish "bad sex"? Why punish it? It's already punished, definitionally.

Not necessarily true, since what is bad sex for one may be good sex for the other. When it comes to sex for guys, especially college age guys, Better than nothing is a very low standard.; ३१/७/१४, १२:४९ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: This is such an American thing.
In most of the rest of the world universities are operated purely as educational providers. What students do outside of a lecture hall is purely their responsibility. The university is not concerned with their welfare or behavior. In most cases the university does not care even if they never show up for lectures at all, as grades are based only on examinations and papers.; ३१/७/१४, २:०७ PM
buwaya म्हणाले...: And, in the traditional European university system, even students charged with serious crimes were not normally expelled. Their legal issues were irrelevant to their relationship with the university.
Duellists, rakes, rapists, bankrupts, and political undesirables were tolerated.; ३१/७/१४, २:११ PM
Birkel म्हणाले...: Professor Althouse:
Try thinking about this issue as an economist might. There is a good for which a significant number of consumers would be willing to pay (non-monetary payments too). The good does not deteriorate with use. The good retains its value unless severely damaged (e.g. diseases that cannot be cured). In a world where the good is distributed by individuals in a competitive environment, and there can be no prohibitions on the delivery of the good, would you expect the price to be high or low?

The affections and attention of boys is a similar commodity. Those things also have a price. Boys would like to barter the exchange for the good they most desire. And on college campuses it is the boys who own the scarcer resource. What will happen to the relative value of the goods in question?

You ask how to fix the problem you perceive. I tell you asking the question shows that you are well intentioned and quixotic. Even if I agreed that the problem exists my answer is that at present there is no available solution.

As an aside, I wonder how this discussion would change if we weren't all discussing it with our heteronormative biases firmly in place. Shall we discuss the incidence rates of domestic violence and bad sex in those other environments?; ३१/७/१४, २:५४ PM
ken in tx म्हणाले...: Liberty University does not routinely expel students for unmarried sex. I know this because my niece graduated there after getting pregnant with her black boyfriend. She was put in a special program for unmarried pregnant students. The program is intended to discourage them from getting abortions. They arranged an adoption, and facilitated her graduation on time.; ३१/७/१४, ७:५२ PM
Trashhauler म्हणाले...: "What rules do you want at the school where your daughter attends? Do you want the same rules for your son?"

If (and it's a big if) colleges are supposed to act in loco parentis, then they need to forbid and punish drinking and drugs for those under 21. And they should outlaw mixed gender dorms and sexual activities. And make the kids eat their vegetables. Same rules for both boys and girls.

However, if they are not boys and girls, but men and women, then colleges should confine their rules to the academic side of things and when acting as landlord and service provider.; ३१/७/१४, ९:४२ PM
Trashhauler म्हणाले...: Here's the crazy thing about colleges acting in loco parentis - they only want to do it sometimes. When it suits them and not when it is inconvenient.

If I, acting as a parent at home, allow my minor children to have alcohol, I am not only a bad parent, I have committed a crime. That changes somewhat when children reach age 18, but not entirely.

We should face the fact that colleges are crappy parents. They let kids drink, smoke, and fool around and they don't feel at all bad about it. And forcing colleges to create sex tribunals in which the complaining party is deemed to be the favored child is just giving them more opportunity to be bad parents.; ३१/७/१४, १०:३४ PM
Todd म्हणाले...: Ann Althouse said...
"There's that "women are not moral agents" thing again."

False.

I think women should make better decisions about sex and should be truthful to themselves and others about who's responsible for what.

But any young man who thinks it's a game to be won where you take what you can get from a woman who is making bad decisions is a man of bad character.

And if you are raising your son to be that kind of person and cheering him on for scoring, shame on you.

and any young woman who thinks it's a game to be won where you take what you can get from a man who is making bad decisions is a woman of bad character.

And if you are raising your daughter to be that kind of person and cheering her on for scoring one against a man, shame on you.

There, that's better... Parents don't send their sons to collage to have them abused by loose women and a slanted honor system, they send them there for an education. Glad that Title IX is finally being used to level the field for both sexes.

As others have said:

a) Collages are NOT courts. They can have their honor code but they would not "handle" a murder charge, why are they "handling" a rape charge?

b) Collages have a responsibility (self declared) to create a safe environment and to try and protect students. That does not and should not mean playing judge and jury on "crimes" where they also choose to NOT involve the police.

c) I would go along with both lowering the drinking age to 18 AND forbidding on campus sex. Violation of the on campus sex rule results in expulsion for all parties involved (and NO, rape is not sex and call the police).; १/८/१४, ८:०६ AM
Known Unknown म्हणाले...: My question--why the hell should the NFL have anything to do with that?

The NFL, whether you like it or not, has a code of conduct. And a league full of wifebeaters is bad PR for a multi-billion dollar industry.; १/८/१४, १०:५७ AM