Are you surprised to learn that I do not approve of this?
Those who visit veterans monuments — even if they too are vets — ought to show respect for the monument, not perform political theater, especially when it's about another topic entirely (like the budget or healthcare policy). An antiwar protest at a veterans monument would make more sense, but even then, it should honor those who have served.
Quite aside from respect for war monuments, I don't accept protesters screwing with government property. These barricades are not theirs to move around for the purpose of making statements. Use your own signs, your own words and gestures if you've got something to say.
Obviously, these people think they're pretty cute, and they're getting egged on by anti-Obama media (like Breitbart and Instapundit). But all protesters who actually care about their objectives need to think really hard about how their hijinks look to people who are not already on their side. I saw the same problem with the Wisconsin protesters in 2011. They were so inside their own enterprise that they couldn't perceive how it would look to those standing away at some distance.
I'm on neither side in the current shutdown. I'm sick of all of them. That's the distance from which I am observing this. And I do not like the moving of the barricades.
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296 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»You would have criticized the original Tea Partiers, I think.
"..Quite aside from respect for war monuments, I don't accept protesters screwing with government property..."
The monuments are not government property. They were paid for by the blood, sweat, and tears of its veterans.
This is a nation with a government Not a government with a nation.
your shutdown didn't last very long.
Lyle--
My exact thought. I work within eye shot of where that happened and think about it every day.
Some of those "pretty cute" WWII vets went through hell so we could be free. Over lunch today I was reading about about the Pacific War. The chaos and horror of Pearl Harbor left the survivors like zombies, slathered with oil, many wandering naked, while the truly bad off lay screaming in makeshift hospitals, crying for their mothers, begging for death.
If you'd been 18 at Pearl Harbor in 1941, you'd be about 90 now. And you'd be a tough son of a bitch.
That's too bad - you not liking it and all. I think it's perfect . . .
Obama has misused government funds and supposedly unaffordable federal employees to set up barricades for no purpose other than to prevent the veterans lawful visitation, in hopes that this will further his shabby political ends. Althouse is outraged -- at the veterans.
This is a nation with a government. Not a government with a nation.
Yep.
Of course the barricades are theirs. Who do you think they belong to? Whose house? Our house!
So Althouse assumes the old Senate fossils can make everything OK?
Ann you're a little huffy being a child of the 60's and all. This is civil disobedience in it purest form. Or do you think Rosa Parks was out of line too?
You may be sick of them Ann but the BOSTON TEA PARTY had the same 'theater'.
Sometimes a message has to be sent.
Like 'DON'T TREAD ON ME' or 'COME AND TAKE IT'!
Hey Ann, how many times in Madison did they do all kinds of stuff like that and you didn't get sick of that?
Civil disobedience is a good thing when the people breaking the law get punished. This forces the rest of us to reconsider the justice of the laws we live under.
If the vets choose civil disobedience, then they ought to be willing to be put in jail. And then the Obama administration can contemplate the optics of putting 90-year-old WWII veterans in handcuffs and perp-walking them.
Our government shutdown is largely over the national debt, both now and in the future. Our irresponsible spending has caused much of it, but the true disaster will be the entitlements of Social Security and Medicare that will soon dwarf all of the rest of it put together.
Most of those WWII vets, most of the Greatest Generation, put those programs in place and support them to this day. Something to keep in mind.
There is an article by someone saying that what disturbs him most about President Obama is not that he is evil, but that he is so clueless about this country.
And that seems to apply a number of people in the bureaucracy as well.
These veterans, or whoever they are, are not causing harm to either the monuments or the barricades; just fighting theater with theater, and yes, really, the barricades "belong" to them - and us - just as much or more as to the Park Service marbleheads.
Only those who gave their time and money to the Obama campaign, such as political appointees in the Interior Dept., should decide who gets access to our war memorials.
And don't equate them with the OWS type !@#$% who protested at the Wisc capitol last year. The vets in DC are orderly, respectful, non-disruptive and will leave the Mall cleaner than when they arrived.
Those who visit veterans monuments — even if they too are vets — ought to show respect for the monument, not perform political theater, especially when it's about another topic entirely (like the budget or healthcare policy).
I'm opposed to you (squarely) because the original barrycading was political theater and nothing more.
You remind me of the Swiss man I once saw standing at the intersection in the middle of the night waiting for the light to turn with no cars in sight.
Quite aside from respect for war monuments, I don't accept protesters screwing with government property.
The point the protesters are are making is that the Obama administration is needlessly, indeed vindictively screwing with public property for a narrow political advantage.
Althouse has the optics backwards. Unlike the Wisconsin protesters, what the DC protesters are doing does not disrupt people from carrying on their normal business. In fact, what they are doing restores that normalcy, disrupted by an administration with a political agenda.
Unless there is damage or other disruption to the memorials caused by the restored access, this is a win for the protesters.
Or worse, the Japanese woman who drove blindly into a collision at an intersection because the traffic lights told her that no cars were coming. But one did. Instead of looking, she trusted the rules.
It's a fine line to walk between blind obedience and common sense.
If these protesters were vandalizing Arlington Cemetery, I would agree with the Professor.
However, a peaceful protest at the site of an injustice would be applauded if the sides were reversed.
At what point does civil disobedience become a citizen's obligation?
When I enlisted, I swore an oath to protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And I think 0bama qualifies as the latter. Anything we can do to thwart him and his agenda is fine in my book.
The only person failing to show respect for the monuments is the President. Erecting barricades to prevent Americans wishing to pay their respects to the veterans the monument honors---even when those monuments are simply open areas normally freely accessible to all---show that the person staging political theater is President Obama. More power to those who challenge his arrogance.
"I'm not blogging about the shutdown."
Never apologize. Never explain.
A government disrespecting those who served to make its very existence possible is the obscenity here. These are peaceable protests against a vindictive, tyrannical administration in a government bloated with bureaucrats. When government fails its very purpose: to serve, and the only recourse that could bring about real change, for both sides ~ term limits, I whole-heartedly applaud these efforts by these honorable individuals. Sitting in an ivory tower, paid year after year after year by tax dollars, it is easy to cast aspersions on the great uncleansed who do not have the luxury and fogvision that living a life on the government tit affords. These WW2 vets, who are paying, what for many are the last respects they will ever pay their fallen comrades or family members who served, should be cut the slack of being scolded (while I respect your right to scold) by those who never served and no doubt never would have served had the opportunity afforded itself, from afar.
"Pretty cute"? As you pass judgment on our heroes, Valerie Jarrett, Barack and their ilk are thanking the heavens they have the liberal gut of people like you to pass judgment of people who actually did something with their lives.
Why don't your stick to your personal shutdown, and write something about the status of the investigation into Benghazi, the IRS audits of good people like Dr. Benjamin Carson and others who don't agree with our president who also once joked about "auditing his political enemies", or our secretary of defense who cannot be bothered to even meet the returning remains of those who have fallen, or how veterans' survivors' benefits, White House tours, National Parks or anything that is vindictive and hurtful against the people by an executive who does not get his way? Don't be a hack. Be cruelly neutral and use your platform here to write about the shit that could use some sunshine put upon it, instead of joining the pissing parade raining down upon these people constantly and reliably first in line to be disrespected by the government they fought to preserve.
I'm sick of the fact that there are barricades in front of memorials, apart from any budgetary/healthcare fight.
It's disgusting and disrespectful to everything the monuments and memorials stand for.
Therefore, the barricades should be torn down, destroyed, moved, ignored, or otherwise disrespected at every opportunity. The only necessary statement is "This is not yours to barricade."
Isn't that a sentiment we can all get behind?
"I'm sick of all of them."
The unprecedented polarization and dysfunction we're seeing is not a bug, its a feature.
It isn't going to end, it is going to increase.
There is no going back.
And no one is going to be above this fray.
Do you object to moving the barricades or to changing their momentum?
Only the latter uses force.
"ought to show respect for the monument, not perform political theater"
The monument is opened 24/7 until Obama shut it down with barrycades. Who started the theatre?
To remove the barrycades is to remove eyesores surrounding the monument, is to return respect for the monument.
"I don't accept protesters screwing with government property. These barricades are not theirs to move around for the purpose of making statements."
I thought the govt. works for us, they are our property.
Agree, the barrycades are not theirs to move around. But who are "theirs"? The park rangers who were never there before the shutdown? The Obama Administration have no rights to barricade the monument in the first place. How wrong is it to remove something that should never be there? E.g. somebody dropped trash, is it wrong to remove the trash?
How are these veterans not showing respect for the monuments? The people that the monuments honor died for freedom. The government's petulant hissy-fit, which only says that the government will abuse its citizens to pressure it's political opponents, is the exact opposite if freedom.
It's not the other side that you have to persuade but the soap opera women.
For this you need a replacement soap opera narrative.
Above all don't confuse them.
The monuments are theater themselves.
Like flag stuff.
Althouse is upset with those moving the barrycades not paying union dues ;)
Ann,
How can you show respect for a monument if it's surrounded by barricades and yellow police tape? Really, the "political theater" is all on the other side.
Quite aside from respect for war monuments, I don't accept protesters screwing with government property. These barricades are not theirs to move around for the purpose of making statements. Use your own signs, your own words and gestures if you've got something to say.
Yes, well, you can do that if the National Mall is selectively opened to your particular protest. You can't if it isn't.
So far as I can tell, none of the people removing barricades at the National Mall or anywhere else have damaged the barriers. On the contrary, they seem to have treated them carefully, stacking cones by the side of the road in some places, and in the case of the National Mall, returning to sender, as it were. They have not, as per (say) the Occupy movement, actually torched or demolished anything. All they have done is to return what were always freely open public spaces to that state.
(OK, there is probably some non-reusable police tape irretrievably lost. But I bet it was put in a trash bin, not strewn on the ground. Old veterans are like that.)
It took more manpower to close these sites than it did to maintain them open. Mark Steyn's latest column gives a sense of where we are now. The bit about Yellowstone is particularly, er, instructive.
Ah, Professor, where would you have been during the Civil Rights marches of the early 1960s? I wonder where I would have stood. Might you have written....
"Quite aside from respect for government-owned bridges like that one going into Selma. I don't accept protesters screwing with government property. These bridges are not theirs to walk on for the purpose of making statements. Use your own property, your own words and gestures if you've got something to say.
Obviously, these nigras think they're pretty cute, and they're getting egged on by New York City Jews (like the New York Times and CBS). But all these nigra protesters who actually care about their objectives need to think really hard about how their hijinks look to people who are not already on their side."
As Abbie Hoffman said, "For a revolution, you don't need a majority. You just need enough."
This post would make sense, if you cried foul when Obama put up those barricades first, that was a show of disrespect as well and to the living. This is all absurd theater from all quarters. There are no grown ups here and we have to look to who started this unnecessary charade and it was Obama.
Some states have reopened some parks using their own funds...
Some people have reopened some monuments using their own hands.
Fair enough?
Or are we going to quibble about the difference between a national park and a national monument?
ok, maybe you are right.
never mind...
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
...of the people, by the people, for the people...
I do not understand how you know the direct motivations of the people who moved these barricades. What evidence is there which makes it obvious what they were thinking? And how do you know they are even aware of the Instapundit and Breitbart web sites? And when did these sites suggest moving these barricades to the White House? I'm not passing judge on the protesters either way, just wondering about how you know this much about them.
Ann posted:
"Obviously, these people think they're pretty cute, and they're getting egged on by anti-Obama media (like Breitbart and Instapundit)."
Althouse, I have to respectfully disagree.
Your superior and elitist attitude of cruel neutrality crumbles before this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWeBEXECQAAnXzp.jpg:large
These monuments belong to the people, not the government. They are open spaces.
There is a right side to the barricade. Unfortunately, you're on the wrong side of it, both morally and historically.
Yeah. There's nothing gained by moving the barricades somewhere else; that just opens you up to crimes other than the ones you're actually supposed to be engaging in civil disobedience to break. Oh well.
Poor, poor Mr. Obama. He was held hostage (his own words) by the evil, evil Republicans and he really showed them, he showed them by putting concrete barriers to parking lots, cones to roadside pull-offs, barricades and police tapes to monuments. He really showed them who the boss is here. Well done, Mr. Obama, well done.
Obviously, these people think they're pretty cute, and they're getting egged on by anti-Obama media (like Breitbart and Instapundit).
Since you posted these things are obvious I am wondering: How you know what these people think? By what evidence do you know they are getting egged on by anti-Obama media? How do you know these people are consumers of anti-Obama media.
I heartily invite you to go suck a rock.
--A combat veteran.
"Veterans Remove Barricades From Memorials And Take Them To White House."
Oh, I see what's going on here.
Barrycades are pro Obama signs and its wrong to remove pro Obama signs w/o permission from Obama.
Veteran's group hits Republicans on shutdown
These veterans, or whoever they are, are not causing harm to either the monuments or the barricades; just fighting theater with theater, and yes, really, the barricades "belong" to them - and us - just as much or more as to the Park Service marbleheads.
While I disagree with Ann, this seems like a rather mild act of civil disobedience that harms no one (although if you look at the pictures, it appears there are very few WWII vets in the crowd), this argument is absurd. The barriers belong to the Federal Government, not the protesters. For a bunch of people who believe in property rights, you are just being ridiculous.
Inga - how dumb do you think we are? Votevets,org has at least two bigtime libs on its board hat I recognized immediately: Doug Band, who is an asshole buddy of Bill Clinton, and Gen. Wesley Clark. It is just another lib front group.
thank these here soldiers, son.
Now if any of these protesters are active duty (i.e. not yet veterans) then you have opened a whole different can of worms. Active duty military, even not in uniform, have no business participating in such a protest.
I agree. Americans should not clear the barricades. The full consequences of Obama and Reid's intransigence should be known.
Republicans should not oppose a debt limit increase. The full consequences of a progressive devaluation of capital and labor should be known.
Conservatives should not oppose a woman's sacrificial rites. The full consequences of devaluing human life should be known.
No one should oppose Obamacare. Subsidizing health insurance to preserve the status quo is imperative. The regression sponsored by a progressive fleecing of Americans must be experienced.
Obama should be known to prefer hatchet jobs, except in clinics where he prefers scalpels.
Reid should be known to prefer a dictatorship, except in name where he claims to respect individual choice.
Pelosi should be known to demand our submission in order to observe the consequences of a clump of defective and unwanted policies.
Who cares Lynch? Why should that matter? He has something to say, same as the vets that were in Washington today.
Ann:
You have no idea how much symbolism can mean to these men. It means a lot, because it's closely tied with the concept of honor.
You might as well say "I don't agree with putting that big flag on top of Mount Suribachi on Iwo Jima. The land is not ours to deface."
You are far, far off base. You've been hanging out on a Madison university campus for too long.
Ann:
You have no idea how much symbolism can mean to these men. It means a lot, because it's closely tied with the concept of honor.
You might as well say "I don't agree with putting that big flag on top of Mount Suribachi on Iwo Jima. The land is not ours to deface."
You are far, far off base. You've been hanging out on a Madison university campus for too long.
You people are misspelling barrycades.
Hmmm, didn't AA once write that she disapproved of "chumming" in web posts?
Freder Frederson,
The barriers belong to the Federal Government, not the protesters. For a bunch of people who believe in property rights, you are just being ridiculous.
As I said, the protesters have (so far as I know) not damaged any Federal property anywhere, unless you count yellow police tape. They have behaved respectfully. They haven't stolen anything, torched anything, &c. Federal cars remain, mysteriously, un-vandalized, and un-defecated-on. It's almost as though the Occupy movement and the bunch of folks who want access to open-air national monuments were two totally different sets of people. Who knew?
Unlike Inga's "VoteVets" ad, I don't see the folks moving the barricades ascribing fault for the larger political impasse, asserting how it should be resolved or which political party should "win" the argument.
The protesters are making a statement about how public resources should not be misused in the conduct of that political disagreement.
That distinction alone makes it abundantly clear for whom partisan political victory is paramount.
Thanks, Inga, for the link and the insight.
$2.7 trillion in receipts. Around $1 trillion deficit. Obama needs to explain his liberal abuse of people's labor. There is no justification for default unless there was extraordinary malfeasance.
His threats to withhold granny's retirement and the children's lunches is an overplayed tactic, which while successful to force a consensus on Obamacare, should prove tiresome to people when administered in progressive doses.
Two things: I think the original barrycading of the WW II monument was wrong and amounted to backfired political theater. The Administration then made it worse by linking the barrycades together.
Today's Veteran's March on DC was predictable and pre-announced; it promised bad optics, mainly for the Administration. A credible pushback by Obama supporters had to be expected.
I think they should have neatly piled the barrycades next to the memorial in an effort to relieve the supposedly furloughed workers of some work. I don't agree with removing them and setting them up across the street.
__________________
*Barrycades: I don't normally promote the repeated use of cutesy neologisms; In this case, it's warranted, in the same sense that Hoovervilles and such terms are. The moniker places the blame exactly where it belongs.
shame you can't see that, and the two 'properties' are equally conflated in your little mind.
You really have reading comprehension problems, don't you? I have no problem with the protest. But to argue that the protesters have a property right in the barriers, or even the monuments themselves, is patently absurd. Besides all three major war monuments on the mall (WWII, Korea and Vietnam) were funded primarily by (in the case of WWII, more than 90%) private contributions.
Inga said...
Time to turn comment moderation back on?
Why?
You commented on people disrespecting monuments as did Meade. Disrespecting barriers around a monument is another thing entirely.
I think you're trolling your readers here...
@Inga: I'll accept that that WW II in the linked Ad represents a real veteran's viewpoint. But I don't know how Obama is polling with vets overall. Do you?
"The barriers belong to the Federal Government."
Oh, sweet irony! Who is Mr. Government? Does he have a dog? Hobbies? The inability of the Left to grasp this simple concept explains so much.
EDH, oh please, the vets march today is squarely blaming Democrats, not partisan? Really?
So I guess the Wisconsin protesters were right. "Who's House? Our House!"
Oh, sweet irony! Who is Mr. Government? Does he have a dog? Hobbies? The inability of the Left to grasp this simple concept explains so much.
Especially since Althouse agreed earlier this year that "Mr. Government" was a lousy husband: link. He must be whispering sweet nothings in her ear.
“If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law” Henry David Thoreau
So I guess the Wisconsin protesters were right. "Who's House? Our House!"
I suppose that if damage to WW II monument itself has occurred as happened to the Capitol--you'd have a case and more sympathy.
Then what is happening in DC would be tantamount to WIsconsin protestors removing non existent Walker barricades ringing the Capitol and removing them to Governor's Island.
Inga wants moderation back on; too many dissenting voices.
What a good little fascist you are, like your progressive buddies.
Did the NPS own that many barricades or were they bought just for the memorial closures? If they're new, when were they ordered?
"not perform political theater" sorry Ann but the Obama administration is the one performing political theater by erecting barricades around open air memorials. And the WWII memorial was built with public contributions and the maintenance comes from a fund setup for that purpose. The administration has spent more money putting up barrycades than if they had not. What about the administration via the NPS trying to close Mount Vernon? a privately run place? they ended up closing a parking lot. The administratin is acting like a petulant child and the adults are saying enough is enough.
There was a time when Althouse was more concerned about the free and open access to war memorials.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0fQPVFufeE
But that was a long time ago now.
"VoteVets." LOL!
Obama IS political theater. Covering the national monuments? Well, he had to do something to get our attention. What a disgrace he is.
"A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America' for an amount of 'up to and including my life'."
Out of respect for the magnitude of the sacrifice given, these outdoor monuments were given to the people of the United States – not just to those who wrote the check but also for those who cashed it, that they may never forget what it was we purchased. To sully them in this manner, freely and without need, merely to take a partisan jab at political opponents, demonstrates a man, an administration, of the lowest possible character.
Mr. President, you sir, are a cretin.
For the vets who attended today and demonstrated with such RESTRAINT, you have my sincerest and most heartfelt gratitude.
To quote Charles C. W. Cooke on Twitter:
"Who is to blame for the shutdown?" and "Are the executive branch's shutdown choices reasonable?" are two separate questions.
Lol! Ann is clearly trolling, as she does every month or two. And Inga suggests "turning moderation back on" because, Gasp! People are disagreeing with Althouse!! Blech. Soon, Ann will appear to tell everyone how they "aren't thinking intelligently" about what she said and how they need to "pay attention" to what she's actually saying before they post again. Lather, rinse, repeat. Boring. Speaking of "theater"....
The error of Occupy Wall Street's "civil disobedience" was that the lawbreaking needs to be related to the grievance. OWS's grievance was corporate corruption and bailouts, so they...set up camp in a park and blocked off streets?
Here, the veterans are protesting the White House barricading them out of national monuments by removing the barricades and taking them to the White House. Classic civil disobedience, perfectly appropriate.
Soon, Ann will appear to tell everyone how they "aren't thinking intelligently" about what she said and how they need to "pay attention" to what she's actually saying before they post again. Lather, rinse, repeat. Boring. Speaking of "theater"....
I would love to chirbit that!
(I mean the Althouse spiel)
If you see Inga in her car at a stoplight, bust out a window and take a crap in her car. Her Occupy buddies would do that. Bring back the good times for her.
While sympathetic, comparing it to what happen with the protests with Gov. Walker I get why it is wrong.
It feels good, but what did it accomplish.
I had a progressive friend repeat the terrorist/hostage/ the fringe tea party line, after I mentioned both parties are energizing the base with the shut down. I reminded her, no one has committed treason
You are wrong about this event being about Obamacare.
The event was a protest against the high handed arrogence of the Obama administration.
It had almost nothing to do with Obamacare.
And as far as the barricades, the government put them there as political theater, not for any real public purpose.
Sorry you didn't like the second act of the show.
Darrell,
If you see Inga in her car at a stoplight, bust out a window and take a crap in her car. Her Occupy buddies would do that.
I'd wager anything that you wouldn't do that yourself. Because you are not actually a walking talking POS; you just play one on the Internet.
Indeed, the Barrycades are the metaphorical vandalism on these monuments. The veterans are only cleaning it up.
You are wrong about this event being about Obamacare.
The event was a protest against the high handed arrogence of the Obama administration.
It had almost nothing to do with Obamacare.
And as far as the barricades, the government put them there as political theater, not for any real public purpose.
Sorry you didn't like the second act of the show.
Inga was a regular brown-noser after Althouse committed blogger suicide by eliminating her wonderful comments section. Inga was always first to tell Ann that she had done the right thing and how much better the blog had become. The demon sitting on the Titanic Captain's shoulder telling him full steam ahead.
My opinion, Ann ...
I'm fine with it. Good on 'em. Shouldn't 'a been put there to begin with.
Yes, I understand your point about Government property. But I'm also thinking 'right to peaceably assemble,' 'right to petition...'
Political theatre? Yes. Political theatre back at ya, for once.
hammond x gritzkofe; service academy graduate, viet nam vet, retired military officer
It is uplifting to see the degree of rejection on this thread of this particular law professor musing.
Michelle,
Thanks for your opinion. Everyone does have one.
I don't understand at all. The placement of the barricades (Barrycades) was done BY the Obama Admin (The OMB is responsible, so you know Barry approved). These are OPEN AIR memorials. You can't "close" them without a highly-affirmative effort. It's not like not unlocking the doors to a museum in the morning. This was theatre and nothing but from the Disdain Admin. Plus, WE are the government. They don't own a damned thing.
Joe's post made me cry.
Triple digits! Finally, Madam, it only took basically trolling your own readers!
Alas, I've reached my comment quota today.
Good day.
Inga said...
EDH, oh please, the vets march today is squarely blaming Democrats, not partisan? Really?
As I said, the protesters are blaming the Obama administration for the needless closure of the monuments.
But I haven't seen any indication that they've staked-out a position of the Continuing Resolution or the Debt Ceiling, who's at fault for the impasse, and which political party should surrender their principles in capitulation to the other party.
VoteVet has.
I also prefer to have them left where they are, mute testimony to the insanity of the Executive Branch. Moving them transfers the focus from where it needs to sit.
Ms. Althouse,
Do you realize that people like me have moved from "protesting" to the fact that we want to secede and have the return of our freedom? I seems that by using the media and our voting laws, the country has been seized by 20% of the population that is dedicated to a communistic nirvana. They are doing this on the backs of the 30% of us that work and pay taxes. If you bother to look, you will find that we are broke. We have a "president" (that you voted for) who either does not have a clue as to leadership or else is intentionally trying to do as much as possible to destroy the US. We have an executive branch that is ruling by regulation, a congress that would not act until called down by a junior senator from Texas, Federal employees from the NPS to the TSA that do nothing but try to subjugate us, and the list goes on. I feel that every state should call for a bill of secession and lets divide the country, just like in 1860.
" ought to show respect for the monument, " Barry is being returned the same level of respect he's shown. Were these folks to behave like the libs, they'd have soiled the area, defecated etc, left their trash, like the recent criminal immigration apologists, and vandalized the area in general. Respect ? Earn it, then you might get it in return. Might, because barry and his acolytes have a history of truly ignorant behavior. Show none and you get far better than you deserve from us.
I am not surprised at all Ann.
This is about honour and integrity - quantities that are essential requirements for our soldiers. In lawyers and politicians they are anathema.
I'm surprised progressives didn't rush to man the barricades.
A Henry V type speech would have been awesome from Obama. He should have encouraged progressive veterans to keep all the war memorials and parks shutdown.
Removing the barricade shows the utmost respect for the monument and memorials. Barricading them was almost traitorous disrespect.
Ann Althouse is "sick of all of them." That's because Ann Althouse is a rubber tube.
Must be delightful, feeling above the fray and all that. If a bunch of FBI agents slap handcuffs on innocents just for the sadistic fun of it, I'm sure Miss Althouse would disapprove of both the cuffing, and the act of innocents throwing the handcuffs on the lawn of the FBI building in DC. The tools of the sadists were, after all, government property (or maybe it's the citizens of the United States who Miss Althouse regards as government property.)
I'm sure someone has already said this, but:
Those who visit veterans monuments — even if they too are vets — ought to show respect for the monument,
It wasn't the Vets who disrespected those monuments...it was the Obama administration who deliberately and needlessly put those barricades up to force the American people to suffer.
You could not be more wrong. Imagine that vet, Private Ryan, being dragged away from the grave of the Tom Hanks character. That's your Barry !
that's right, those guys on the boat, throwing crates of tea overboard should've just made signs
Sorry, Professor, but the federal gov't is the one that engaged in fairly inane political theater and it backfired.
They put up barricades in open air memorials - memorials that anyone can go to at 3:00am!
Interesting that you should think as you do, however. What does Meade think?
turn comments moderation back on? interesting how quickly a certain political outlook predisposes one to censorship, hmm?
No wonder Inga likes hem.
"In a June 2011 press release, the organization specifically identified itself as the "largest progressive group of veterans in America."
The screwing with monuments happened when the Barrycades were put up.
I say, they should all be put in a pile in the front of the Spite House.
Is this the beginning of the American spring?
We all gravitate towards groups that we have sympathetic views with Michael K.
Does it matter what group put this video about this old veteran out? Really? Should I suspect the veterans who were in Washington today as being insincere? Being simply partisan? I think the veterans that belong to VoteVet are no less patriotic than the ones who were in Washington today.
When Good King Barack starts showing some respect for the peasantry--and stops beating them, then Ms. Althouse your comment may make some sense. But until then, well I'll just assume you had some pretty strong mimosas at brunch this morning.
I think the intention of the post was as a troll trap. No one believes that a person cannot protest the tyranny of one's government in this manner.
"These barricades are not theirs to move around for the purpose of making statements."
Apparently, the barricades are the White House's to move around for the purpose of making statements.
Inga; No one here questioned the patriotism of Votevets. You, on the other hand, claimed the protesting vets were partisan.
Lynch, they are no less or more partisan than VoteVets. In fact MOST of us are very partisan. It's the political climate we live in. To deny it is silly.
I do hope that Bill Maher's belittling take on WWII vets' concern about the memorial being closed -- “they’re the greatest generation; nobody said they were the brightest generation” -- is not at all representative of how the MSM is about to handle this.
Depressing as hell that Maher actually got laughs with the routine.
If the Democrats want more stuff then why don't they raise taxes to pay for it? Why do they insist on playing this silly game and maintain a shallow pretense? How many people believe that instant or immediate gratification, unbacked by commensurate productivity increases, is possible without also sponsoring corruption?
Why wasn't there an Obamacare trial in Detroit to prove that it is capable of spurring economic activity, control corruption, and provide superior health care without a redistributive scheme? Do they think that scale alone will shield them from the terms and circumstances of reality? When the body is corrupted, treating symptoms will not merely delay the disease's progress, but exacerbate the condition.
Dismember it. Vacuum it. Flush it. The clump of policies known as Obamacare and similar inviable and burdensome policies. Support planned government. Support individual choice.
As for the veterans... Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness!
Obama, Reid, et al need to curb their lust for control. They can begin their reform by refraining from playground tactics.
Can a lawyer explain to me why there is a "1st Amendment activities" exemption for Washington D.C. and Philadelphia memorials, and not say Gettysburg?
VoteVets is a Democrat Party front operation. They claim "non-partisan" status, but there's no GOP Vet candidates they support.
So, they are really in violation of the law and should pay back taxes and a fine, or maybe even shut down.
They really shouldn't claim to be a non-partisan Veterans outfit when they only support Democrats.
The history of Cromwell's approach to the last King absolutist v. his Parliament putting limits on him is very instructive.
Many Americans want to have a beloved King in absolute authority. It was only those feisty Puritans running Boston that took Oliver Cromwell's point of view seriously in 1773.
Les Barricades Mystérieuses best rendition.
The man understands it was written for the mechanical clicks of the harpsichord.
Not this grande-rubato crap that youtube is full of.
"In a June 2011 press release, the organization specifically identified itself as the "largest progressive group of veterans in America."
So there are, what, four members?
Whether you "like" or "approve" is irrelevant. Civility has been in short supply for some time and the real ugliness is just beginning. Serious violence will follow. Thoughtful, discerning and intelligent Americans, among whom I count you high, should support a movement to have a Constitutional Convention in about a decade. We have much suffering to do first.
So you think that victims-err-citizens should submit to tyranny? The government was and is acting like a bully, using our tax dollars and borrowed money to inflict pain in an effort to keep growing the Stazi state.
This is why women are not fit to be leaders-in thought or reality. You seek to get all sides to "get along" without worrying your pretty little heads about right and wrong.
"This is why women are not fit to be leaders-in thought or reality. You seek to get all sides to "get along" without worrying your pretty little heads about right and wrong."
10/13/13, 3:54 PM
Ohhhh, it took over a hundred comments beore the misogynists reared their heads.
You see it as protest, but is it really protest? Is the placing of the barricades a protest?
What statement is being made by the government in the placing of the barricades?
It is more of a push-back against the denial of the administration.
It's OK though when two women Senators bray [Collins and Klobuchar] on a Sunday morning news show about how it will take women politicos to resolve the current impasse.
Obama was protesting the GOP by using his Federal powers to put barrycades up to annoy the general citizenry.
The vets peaceful response should be applauded. They didn't trash anything or burn any cop cars.
I bet if you were there Ann, you would have liked it. I bet they are real nice people.
Whether you "like" or "approve" is irrelevant. Civility has been in short supply for some time and the real ugliness is just beginning. Serious violence will follow. Thoughtful, discerning and intelligent Americans, among whom I count you high, should support a movement to have a Constitutional Convention in about a decade. We have much suffering to do first.
This storming of the "barrycades" must have hit the lefties right between the eyes. My typical lefty friends on FB are speechless and scrambling for the next talking points.
Lynch, Collins and Klobuchar said, "A lot of woman are leading the way" and perhaps its true. I don't believe they said men were "unfit to be leaders in thought or reality".
This is why it was important for the Berliners to just stay io their own side of the wall. Because the government put the wall there.
Althouse would likely have had a problem with people removing Jews from the Nazi trains.
She has a history of being submissive to authority. No real surprise...she is a government employee who feeds at the trough.
Remember the Althouse's of the world voted for Obama after it all goes down the drain.
It's shocking. Government facilities are closed during a government shutdown and specifically, facilities patrolled by Park Rangers are closed when such Rangers are furloughed. Who could see this happen?
Plus, nothing says patriotism quite like a Confederate Flag at a protest in 2013.
pic.twitter.com/dyByu9av51
AJ Lynch: It's OK though when two women Senators bray [Collins and Klobuchar] on a Sunday morning news show about how it will take women politicos to resolve the current impasse.
I didn't see that but if they meant that President Obama only really only listens to women, I think they may have a point. The signs are everywhere. However, I think it's high time that men--particularly sensitive white men who might otherwise feel inhibited--remind our President of the limits of his Constitutional powers. This Lincoln adulation seems to really be going to his head.
@somefehler: OMG, the "New Confederacy" rears its head--just like the sullivanists have maintained all along.
Bad, bad, racists veterans!
Interesting that you should think as you do, however. What does Meade think?
Didn't Meade take a sign off a memorial to a war hero during the Madison protests?
'Ga said:
Lynch, Collins and Klobuchar said, "A lot of woman are leading the way" and perhaps its true.
Didn't Sarah Palin speak at the Veteran's March today? If so, then I back what you said.
CL- they were suggesting if women had been in charge, the shutdown etc would not have happened. And now, it will take women to fix it.
Althouse would likely have had a problem with people removing Jews from the Nazi trains.
Yeah, because guys like you are just like anti-Nazi resisters. Be sure to shout "Wolverines!", Walter Mitty.
This stuff would be funny if it wasn't for the implications of a debt default. I realize many if not most Tea Partiers don't have much in the way of investments (despite all the we-are-capitalists rhetoric) but the thinking and responsible people, both Democrats and Republicans, aren't amused by the prospect of default.
I think the intention of the post was as a troll trap. No one believes that a person cannot protest the tyranny of one's government in this manner.
"And I do not like the moving of the barricades."
Dead give away.
Nice of Lynch to put words in their mouths.
Blogger Inga said...
Lynch, they are no less or more partisan than VoteVets. In fact MOST of us are very partisan. It's the political climate we live in. To deny it is silly.
****
Used to be, Inga, that many veterans were Dems. But that doesn't seem to be so now ---at least according to you.
Or are you saying the veterans here are all Republicans? If so, why would the Dem WWII vets stay home? Or may, just maybe, Dem vets are just as outraged at Dear Leader as GOP vets.
AJ Lynch said...
CL- they were suggesting if women had been in charge, the shutdown etc would not have happened. And now, it will take women to fix it.
Seems absurd on its face. Women voted overwhelmingly for Obama. If those women were in charge (Congress) their dreamy leader would face much less opposition. We'd also have single party, single payer, single women world.
Barrycades in front of the war memorials but no Barrycades in front of the welfare offices. Now Ann as you were saying....
Now if the WI legislature voted to put all state and local public sector employees on ObamaCare would Ann be this disinterested and dismissive?
Somebody get the memo to somefeller that the IRS hasn't stopped collecting taxes so if there is a default it would solely be the act of an intentional and willful deadbeat residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
We'd also have single party, single payer, single women world.
Nice.
aren't amused by the prospect of default
Go cry more. This country is $17+ trillion in debt with $80+ trillion in unfunded liabilities. It's about cuts now to prevent bankruptcy now or forget about the future.
And for what it's worth, people like you are what the rifle butt is for.
The only purpose the barricades around open air monuments serve is to antagonize the people. I don't see why the people should stand for it.
@Lem: Nice.
No, I'm serious. To those women weary of political confrontation: put on you history caps and tell me about any modern single party nation which was prosperous and sustainable.
I asked ritmo that same question the other night on your blog and I'm pretty sure he ducked the question.
J stammers:And for what it's worth, people like you are what the rifle butt is for.
That may well be true. Too bad you'll never get the chance, Internet Tough Guy.
Somefeller, I guess they long for the Confederacy.
Mr. Obama, tear down the Barrycades!
Inga: Somefeller, I guess they long for the Confederacy.
When I was 8, we visited Chattanooga TN on our way to FLA. I bought a small fabric Confederate flag as a souvenir.
Are you going to write my mommy and tell her? She already knows that I fried ants with a magnifying glass.
That's certainly true for some of them, Inga. But that's not the case for all of them. That other set are simply to be pitied rather than reviled. But they should consider the company they keep and in any case, the non-theater aspect of the real issue of concern (the default, not the shutdown) isn't funny and tells us a lot about the degraded state of modern conservatism.
Freeman Hunt,
The only purpose the barricades around open air monuments serve is to antagonize the people. I don't see why the people should stand for it.
Well, exactly. What, they're unsafe if unpatrolled by NPS personnel? The National Mall is, well, flat and level and generally not deserted. It's probably as safe as any place in DC, patrolled or not. Deliberately barricading off open-air sites with an eye to convincing people that those nasty Republicans are preventing you from looking for your child's or sibling's name on the Vietnam Memorial Wall ... well, it's just mean. Especially when the Mall is opened up selectively for favored protests.
Steyn's piece that I linked above contains a particularly disgusting NPS tale from Yellowstone. I don't want to believe it, but after the barricading of the WWII Memorial against WWII vets, it's all too plausible.
Yeah! Who do those uppity veterans think they are?
Somefeller, yes we can hope that not all there were pleased to see that flag.
If you are so sick of this, maybe you could go out and watch that nice Tom Hanks' latest movie to assuage your liberal guilt. Maybe his performance will be so moving you find that you agree with him that Obama deserves a chance for a third term.
Tomorrow these vets will still have to deal with the politics this administration is forcing upon them. Tomorrow the parents of those killed in Benghazi will still have no answers but the taunts of this administration belittling the deaths of their family members as trumped up "politics."
You can still keep your hands clean, keep your taxpayer funded position and say you are above it all. Why are these vets being treated so much more harshly than the Occupy people? The sense of everyone being treated equal and having a fair shot is quickly fading. Who would have thought the Woodstock generation would become exactly what they said they hated so much?
Anytime the government gets the idea that its job is to stick it to the people, the people should correct its confusion immediately.
I wonder how many there were actually veterans.
That's certainly true for some of them, Inga. But that's not the case for all of them. That other set are simply to be pitied rather than reviled. But they should consider the company they keep and in any case, the non-theater aspect of the real issue of concern (the default, not the shutdown) isn't funny and tells us a lot about the degraded state of modern conservatism.
You two disgust me, you really do. This thread isn't about the debt crisis or racism per se. It's about the theatrics of the War Memorial. Very reasonable people besides me are making valid points about crass political nature of what the Administration first did here. If you two could at least see and acknowledge that instead of perpetually reaching for your knee jerk race cards--perhaps we'd get somewhere.
War monuments are not sacred, any more than any monuments are sacred. Monuments establish the status quo, the orthodoxy which all good citizens must bow to, else face being cast out for heresy.
Removing the barricades from closed war monuments does not damage or deface the monuments and does not warrant reproach. (Our military adventuring abroad, which gives rise to the dead whom these monuments memorialize, does, on the other hand, warrant reproach.)
It's crass to hold the Nation's economy and workers hostage. That is what is truly dispicable. Governance by extortion will not work and it's not how to govern, it's tantamount to Congressional malpractice, or worse.
You two disgust me, you really do.
Aw, Inga, see what we done now? Little Chickie is all mad and bothered now. He'll probably start crying into his Sarah Palin commemorative hankie now. Damn shame.
This stuff would be funny if it wasn't for the implications of a debt default. I realize many if not most Tea Partiers don't have much in the way of investments (despite all the we-are-capitalists rhetoric) but the thinking and responsible people, both Democrats and Republicans, aren't amused by the prospect of default.
$20 Billion in debt payment per month and $200 Billion in tax receipts per month. If there is a default it is only because the Mocha Messiah wants one.
Sullavinists to the right of me! Sullavinists to the left of me! Sullivanists under the sofa and behind the chairs! Oy!
I no longer care what the hijinks of Americans look like to people on the left. Removing those barriers is the right thing to do in this case.
Authority is there for our good and is to be respected, but when it's used for no other reason than to abuse us, see Jefferson.
"The Berlin Blockade was a siege in all but name. Beyond the sheer fact of food and coal being cut off to a city of millions were a thousand minor humiliations by Soviet officials designed to break the will of their enemies to resist. That was their mistake. And it’s a mistake that the left often makes."
I walk past the monuments every day on my way to work. The barricades are an outrage and defile sacred grounds This is a clear expression of how Obama views the Citizenry. I am thrilled to finally see a group do what I have felt like doing ever since they first appeared. I am tired of being pushed around. The Vets should have piled them in front of the White House and set them on fire. I would like to stick them somewhere Obama would find very unpleasant.
For every Betsy Ross there are a hundred like Lois Lehrner, Janets Reno and Nepalitano, Lisa Jacksons, and the female Park Ranger with the German Shepard at the Vietnam Wall.
If women were in charge of the US we would be a socialist state with no military, no NASA, and forced psychiatry for anyone who doesn't agree. We are almost there now.
And fly that Confederate flag while removing the barriers, that was an excellent optic, right?
Someone who wants to keep spending a trillion dollars or more per year over and above what we take in, and keep raising the debt limit to match, is criticizing OTHERS for being in favor of default? He probably thinks that if you're gaining 10 pounds a month and have passed the 400-pound mark the only adjustment you need to make is to get your pants let out when they don't fit and punch a new hole in your belt every few months. What could go wrong?
I am with the vets. Our monuments. Our barrycades. Our government. Our red line has been crossed.
Yes it is, Inga.
When I was 16, I was psyched for my summer job at a restaurant. I logged 39.5 hours every week.
Now, kids can only work 29.
Obama is holding millions of Americans hostage to 29 hours a week.
Inga has the nerve to accuse the other side of "governing by extortion" and "hold[ing] the Nation's economy and workers hostage"? Hahahaha!
Inga said...
Sullavinists to the right of me! Sullavinists to the left of me! Sullivanists under the sofa and behind the chairs! Oy!
I'm just pointing out how consistent you are with his philosophy. He went on national TV and called whole geographic regions who voted republican the "New Confederacy" -- ergo they're all racist. It was a divisive, despicable tactic, and fortunately George Will made a fool of him. But here you two are, doing the same thing. You insinuate that the veterans are all racists because they tolerate expression of view. Again, you disgust me--as if you care.
Looking at a close-up picture- the government does not own the Barrycades in DC. The administration rented them for the occasion.
Vets are simply piling them up making them easier to return to the owners.
Methinks the rental companies ought take them back, and insist on payment citing breach of contract- they're barricades were being unlawfully used to prevent American citizens from visiting monuments they own.
Apparently, Althouse, you don't grasp that the proper response to a contemptible government is contempt.
"Our government shutdown is largely over the national debt, both now and in the future."
No, it is not, though the Republicans, aware that they are being (rightly) blamed by the unhappy public over the shutdown, may now be trying to frame it as such. It is entirely about the Republicans' wish to blackmail Obama into "postponing" Obamneycare another year. Period. ("Next year," of course, they would pull another such foot-stamping tantrum, in hopes through extra-legislative means they can simply kill established law.)
I am not a supporter of Obamneycare, seeing as it is a gift of a captive audience to the private health insurers, and does not address the problems of access to health care in this country, but it was passed into law. The Republicans simply cannot accept this, and they are probably fearful that the marginal good it might do for some of those in the country who need healthcare but who have not heretofore been able to acquire it will reflect well on Obama, or will undermine their own hyperbolic claims that it will "undo the Republic," or, more frighteningly, that it might create a hunger in the public for a more equitable and complete solution: universal healthcare, available to all and paid for by our taxes.
El Pollo:
You know how it works: 1 Confederate Flag in a group of 100,000 disgraces them all completely and forever. On the other hand, if Obama's personal friends and staff members are far fewer than 100,000 and still include at least a couple of convicted terrorists, several racist and antisemitic preachers, dozens of perjurers, and so on and so on, so what? It's no reflection on him.
Any default will be squarely on the shoulders of Senate Democrats, who have moved the goalposts.
Republicans should put a final offer on the table and leave town.
The media refuse to broadcast the truth, and that is a tragedy and an outrage.
Actually, Robert Cook, Obamacare was not in fact "passed into law": it was "deemed as passed" without actually being passed. It is not a law, never was a law, and should only be treated as a law in so far as Obama's jackbooted thugs enforce it.
A government that locks up tourists visiting Yellowstone for two days without warrant of cause, that spitefully closes privately-operated public campgrounds and facilities that have no operating costs, needs to be reminded that power comes from the people.
When D.C. Park Police permitted illegals to protest at the National Mall without making a single arrest, not a word of criticism came from the Althouse blog - but do not, under any circumstances, let some veteran organizations protest in support of our 90 year-old WWII heroes.
Your comments were far from neutral, Ann - it seems to me that our president is being let off the hook. This protest, and its property damage, is mild compared to the Madison stupidity. And of course - let us not forget the snipers stationed on the roof of the White House. We had an innocent killed last week for hitting a barricade near the White House - and now this threat of government-initiated violence.
Dr. Weevil: They are just hewing closing to their Doctrine of Executive Infallibility, making shit up to fit it.
Hey! Here's an idea, Democrats agree to get rid of Obamcare altogether and replace it with Medicare for All and to show they mean business they should keep the government shut down and embrace the default, if they don't get what they want. Do it like the TeaPublicans!
Freeman Hunt,
Anytime the government gets the idea that its job is to stick it to the people, the people should correct its confusion immediately.
If there were up-votes here, you'd have mine. Amen, sister.
Actually, Robert Cook, Obamacare was not in fact "passed into law": it was "deemed as passed" without actually being passed. It is not a law, never was a law, and should only be treated as a law in so far as Obama's jackbooted thugs enforce it.
I can't believe the US Supreme Courf failed to notice that it isn't a real law! Fire up the briefs, boys, we have great grounds for rehearing! Maybe Ted Cruz will do the oral argument. That would be two scoops of awesome.
Very benign protest... if you ask me.
Worry when the young men come to the wall.
The helicopters are a nice touch.
Two possibilities here: (a) 'somefeller' would be just fine with the Republicans 'deeming as passed' some law that would utterly and irrevocably change the U.S. in ways that he finds horrifying, or (b) he's a hypocrite, who thinks his side can and should cheat to their heart's content, but the other side has to follow Queensberry rules.
Community organizing requires helicopters sometimes.
Dr. Weevil is an illuminating source by which we can learn the prevailing self-justifying Republican dogmas of the day.
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