A stalemate in a game that cannot end.
"Once the government reopens and we get the debt ceiling settled, we’ll be happy to talk to them about anything they want to talk about." (Reid.)
"This isn’t some damn game. All we want is to sit down and have a discussion." (Boehner.)
Okay, so it's not a game. But "game" is at least an apt metaphor. Or, no, it's not, because in games, where there is a true stalemate, a rule ends the game, and the players can stop playing. They don't continue to sit at the chessboard until someone concedes.
Talking and having a discussion is also a metaphor. The 2 parties in Congress are not a couple on a date that's turned into a staring contest. Or maybe Boehner is the woman endlessly imploring her man to talk about their relationship, and Reid is the taciturn man who's waiting for her to give up and do what the junior partner in a marriage is supposed to do: what he says.
Alternatively, Boehner is the man who relentlessly pursues his ex-girlfriend asking only for a chance to talk to her, and the woman — Reid — curtly informs him that there's nothing to talk about.
We instinctively turn away. And yet, the 2 sides are, it seems, waiting for Us the People to assign blame to one side or another. We're supposed to decide, and when we've conveyed our feelings, the party that anticipates losing in future elections will cave so our loathing for it doesn't grow any deeper.
But are we still watching? They need us to watch. It's their only way out. They're trying to make it interesting, with war monuments and children dying of cancer, but... look: gigantic hornets are killing the Chinese and Sandra Bullock is floating in outer space!
५ ऑक्टोबर, २०१३
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I'm surprised the political geniuses who came up with the scorched earth policy didn't also think of closing the interstate highways.
Its all a dick game at this point. Obama's won't compromise due to the bad precedent it'll cause the presidency. Boehner won't compromise because he's got too much invested in the game at this point.
How soon before the Dems BEG for a one-year postponement of Obamacare? There are only 87 days until the fines kick in.
If it's working well but simply overwhelmed, why does OFA stooge Chad Henderson have to lie about it?
If these are minor "glitches," why is there no ETA on the bug fixes?
Hang tough, Boehner, and Obama will be weeping like Tonya Harding with a broken shoelace.
And where is Obama? in the talk soupy sale bubbling up and landing on a tub to release stressed battled troops looking to Boehner telling them to shower and nap as counseled by the kids who wrote to him.
Obama is a marriage... a relationship counselor.
That's it, that's the ticket.
I don't see the crisis, except for what Obama wants to misallocate.
The government has enough income to service its debts.
Just not enough to run HHS and the Energy Department.
Here's an opportunity.
If you want to do Soupy Sales, Obama asking kids to mail in their dads' wallets would work.
Ann, those hornets are going to give me nightmares. The size of a human thumb? Seriously? Ordinary domestic yellowjackets scare me quite enough.
Warren Buffet needs to invite George Soros and the Koch brothers to lunch and say "Listen, let's each kick in a billion bucks for a Throw the Bums Out campaign, the object of which will be to get everybody, everywhere, to vote against every incumbent they can. This won't work perfectly everywhere, but it will unseat enough of these clowns to scare the rest into behaving like legislators; and if it doesn't work in this election cycle, we've got more cash."
A guess: It will bleed into the Debt Ceiling "crisis" and then they'll all compromise in some way that let's them say they got "something." Something will not include defunding all of O'Care.
There will be no "end". Next week the debt limit throwdown begins so now we'll have the sequester, shutdown and threat of messy debt limit "negotiations" muddying up the works. Politicians rhetoric will get nastier, their respective acolytes get nastier maybe even physical, and the president wades in just often enough to chide the republicans like errant schoolboys. The 800,000 unpaid continue to unspend, businesses local to closed/curtailed gov't installations/operations slow down vendor payments because of cash flow reduction and Hairy Reed clucks and grimaces on live TV about how the republicans are like errant schoolboys deserving of opposition party opprobrium and presidential chiding like errant schoolboys. Worldwide opinion of American grit and resolve is further eroded by the spectacle of our weak tea president and the humpty-dumpty congress that don't talk to each other. Americans not directly involved still choose sides and parrot the talking points of each back and forth to each other as if it's a Saturday Football Game. The leviathan of Federal Government continues to grow in absolute numbers and reach as MRAPs are delivered into the welcoming arms of local police and sheriff's departments. Through the auspices of the DHS, the civilian militia, larger than the standing army takes shape even as the laws binding constitutional government lose theirs by virtue of being ignored, abused and contorted into definitions that mangle original intent. There is no end. There is only the steady march into totalitarianism. Woe be unto us that are not part of the received wisdom crowd. Freedom ends when they take our guns. That is a marker for you. When the guns are gone, it ends, and they are not missing any opportunity to legislate away our right to bear arms. Matter of time.
It will end with a whimper. Republicans entered this with the idea that they could extort the end of of Obamacare in exchange for the government continuing to function. They misunderstood that Democrats cannot allow such tactics to stand, because there would be no end to governing by one crisis after another. We are a Democracy, I know that some will say no it's a Republic. But either way, governance by extortion is not governance that fits either one and must be rejected.
It's kind of pathetic to see Republicans trying to save face now and get some deal, any deal, just so they don't look like they have been led down the garden path full of thorns by the extremists in their midst.
Interesting exchange on Wednesday with Kelly Ayotte, Ron Johnson and Dan Coates, in which they lambasted Ted Cruz, while he was there in front of them and in front of the participants at the function. I heard it wasn't pretty. The term "lynch mob" was used.
It is a game, but this is winning that the White House cannot afford.
Some say the shutdown will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of Obamacare
I hold with those who favor fire.
As far as closing the interstates, that would set off EVERY American against the administration. It would be impossible to enforce barring the abrogation of the Posse Comitatus Act. Not only would enforcement be impossible, the shutdown of the interstates would kill economic activity. Goods don't move, workers don't work, armored cars don't deliver cash to ATMs and grocery stores don't get resupplied. Never happen short of a hot war within our borders.
Mr Obama, tear down your Barrycades.
There is no federal highway patrol. Any governor that worked with Barry to do this would get tossed in the next election.
Inga said... Republicans entered this with the idea that they could extort the end of of Obamacare
Like the Wisconsin Dems did with Act 10!
This could be constructive. State and local governments may get in bed with the Feds on fewer programs so the Feds can't try to tell them to do stupid things like close stare parks.
State parks!
Farmer, but they didn't shut down the funding of Wisconsin, it still functioned. State workers were not out of work and a paycheck. Your equivalency is a false one.
They misunderstood that Democrats cannot allow such tactics to stand, because there would be no end to governing by one crisis after another.
Which party famously proclaimed that we cannot allow this crisis to go to waste?
The Democrats have perfected the art of governing by crisis, artifical or real.
The only real beef the Democrats have is that the Republicans are stealing their act.
Yet another case of Lefty projection.
The big news in the shutdown?
Blocked National Parks, museums and memorials.
Also, health care for children delayed.
This is what happens when the Federal government shuts down?
The Administration, one, looks petty. And, two, is making government control of health care increasingly less savory to people.
Harming the least important in order to score political points. Yes. Continue to let the powerful and influential receive pay and perks. Also yes.
Most people not being able to tell the difference during a shutdown. Delivers a strong message for a libertarian turn.
It's a republic.
At least you're as aware of our type of government as Anthony Kennedy.
Which is not a compliment.
Wishful thinking perhaps, but the longer Obama refuses to deal at all the more people are going to see that his lack of leadership is the story. In any other line of work the big cheese would finally get fed up and sit the warring parties down and get a resolution that no one liked. Obama has that responsibility but he is unwilling or unable to fulfill it.
Obama's numbers are falling even in the friendly Gallup poll. Reid is finally being recognized as the jerk he is. Boehner appears to be trying to get something done whether he is or not.
Wishful thinking perhaps, but the longer Obama refuses to deal at all the more people are going to see that his lack of leadership is the story. In any other line of work the big cheese would finally get fed up and sit the warring parties down and get a resolution that no one liked. Obama has that responsibility but he is unwilling or unable to fulfill it.
Obama's numbers are falling even in the friendly Gallup poll. Reid is finally being recognized as the jerk he is. Boehner appears to be trying to get something done whether he is or not.
It was not Democrats who were clamoring for a government shut down. In 2010 there were TeaPublicans stating to a crowd of followers that their goal was government shut down and the crowd cheered. What the heck did they think would happen during a government shut down? That they could be excused from blame by ala carte funding of certain entities?
Michelle Bachmann claimed she and her TeaPublicans were thrilled, couldn't be happier. They shut down the government, now they are trying to dodge the bullet of blame.
That they could be excused from blame by ala carte funding of certain entities?
Why not? If a budget can't be passed (and apparently it can't), why not pass resolutions on a per-program basis? Seems a great way to focus resources and prioritize spending.
“Dealing with terrorists has taught us some things,” said Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday’s GOP bills. “You can’t deal with ’em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare—affordable health care—in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can’t figure out how to admit it.” Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn’t? “You can’t say, OK, you get half of Obamacare—this isn’t a Solomonic decision,” McDermott said. “So we sit here until they figure out they fuckin’ lost.”
Both sides are taking the Russ Feingold approach: "It's not over until we win." That presents a problem.
I am fine with the shutdown; Republicans have done it to Clinton and Obama twice in thirteen years, while Democrats did it to Reagan eight times in eight years. It's nothing new and all the caterwauling about how it's the end of the world is BS.
What is a calamity is hitting the debt ceiling. I do not know how much money the shutdown saves; however, if it saves enough to essentially balance the budget then this really presents an opportunity for the Republicans to get a balanced budget via the shutdown. Send a clean debt ceiling increase to fund through April, when presumably cash flow will cover ongoing expenses. Keep sending out small spending bills to test if the Democrats are ready to come to the table for budget negotiations. If not, keep starving the beast.
A real President would be part of the answer, and not part of the problem. Obama is acting like a child.
" They misunderstood that Democrats cannot allow such tactics to stand, because there would be no end to governing by one crisis after another. "
And what we have is working ? Did you, by any chance, see the maneuvers that allowed the bill to go to Obama for signature ? Have you noticed there had been no "Budget" passed by the Senate since 2009 ?
The House is the source for appropriations bills. That is what they are doing. There are precedents for "shutdowns" going back 40 years. The fact that Gingrich had a temper tantrum about sitting in back of Air Force 1 and caused the GOP to lose the last shutdown crisis is not the way it always ends.
As soon as Obama's poll numbers crash, it will be settled. If they don't, we will see how things look with less government.
Michael. A budget was passed March 23rd , 2013. What are you talking about?
Michelle Bachmann claimed she and her TeaPublicans were thrilled, couldn't be happier. They shut down the government, now they are trying to dodge the bullet of blame.
Because of course no one can blame the Democrats for not producing a budget since the Republicans took control of the House........
That they could be excused from blame by ala carte funding of certain entities?
"a la carte funding of certain entities" sounds an awful lot like the normal budgeting process......
And who blocked a budget conference committee meeting 18 times since March?
And who blocked a budget conference committee meeting 18 times since March?
I don't know, but call me when it gets to 3+ years and I'll get as outraged over that as you are outraged at Harry Reid.....
No, the senate just passed a budget for fiscal 2104 last week. They should have done it months ago.
I believe the March 2013 bill that passed was an appropriations bill for the second half of 2013.
Sorry 2014 obviously
In order to sell how terrible things are, we are told that the government is shut down, when in fact, 13% of the government is technically shut down, but in reality not. If the National Park Service is shut down, how can there be rangers working? (Today they are trying to close access to the Atlantic Ocean off of Florida.) What will come back and bite them at some point is that people will realize the essential services are still running, and except for intentional pain directed at various citizens, we don't miss them. When people realize that we can live without these bloated government departments, the question of where to trim the budget becomes crystal clear and the leftover money can be allocated to worthwhile endeavors.
For those too young to remember, the democrats did this to Ronald Reagan six times, and they controlled both houses!
Maybe the one who blinks first will get the credit–like the mother in the Solomon case.
Inga said...
Interesting exchange on Wednesday with Kelly Ayotte, Ron Johnson and Dan Coates, in which they lambasted Ted Cruz, while he was there in front of them and in front of the participants at the function. I heard it wasn't pretty. The term "lynch mob" was used.
Bill O'Reilly did a good job last night with Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) revealing how shallow that criticism of Ted Cruz is.
[Excerpted.]
Oh no I stand corrected. I think the senate did pass a budget plan in March.
There is no "end."
This is just a landmark in a long war.
This is really unpleasant. More so than in the past, this has all the feel of that climactic scene in the movie, whether the bad guy appears to be holding all the cards and is gleeful over his anticipated triumphant success, the destruction of North America or some such thing. That's the Democrats right now: "we'll sit here and refuse to negotiate because we hold all the cards; the Republicans will be blamed and they'll be devastated in public opinion and we'll regain the House in 2014!" This confidence that the Republicans will be blamed may result in their overreaching -- but, then again, they may be entirely right. Think of the news reports that "of course, all national monuments had to block off access, because the government would be liable if someone hurt themselves by climbing on the WWII memorial without rangers there to protect them." Shorter CNN: "Grand Canyon's closed. Thanks, Congress."
But the Republicans are equally trapped. To vote on a clean CR and a clean debt ceiling increase, repeatedly, month after month, year after year, preserving the status quo with no reform, means they might as well turn out the lights and go home.
I'm also fed up with the Democrat's stance that "Obamacare is the unalterable law of the land; the Supreme Court said so." The Supreme Court decidedly did not enshrine O'Care into permanence any more than any other law whose constitutionality they accept.
At the same time, the Republicans don't really have a coherent plan. At least, as far as I can tell, they don't have credible way forward -- delay ObamaCare for a year? Eliminate the individual mandate (which is, for the first year, small in the grand scheme of things and one of the lowest priorities among fixable pieces of the law)? Nothing is persuasive and making a case to the American people (to the extent that they can indeed make a case to the American people when they're dependent on reporters to transmit that case).
And the American people are stuck -- unwilling pawns in the power struggle. March on Washington, anyone? Carrying posters saying "if you'll negotiate with Iran, then negotiate with the GOP"? I've long ago concluded that the average citizen truly has no way to Make A Difference but can't quite take the next step to walk away.
Oh, and I tried to paste a link to a blog post in which (knowing it's wishful thinking) I imagine a way out of the impasse, but I don't think it worked.
http://janetheactuary.blogspot.com/2013/10/on-shutdown-for-what-its-worth.html
The real problem is that Boehner (and Republicans in general) have been so consistently burned by "Do what we ask now, we'll talk later," only to never get those concessions "later," that the tactic doesn't work any more. Who knew? Republicans CAN learn.
For the metaphor: It strikes me more as two parents having a very vocal, very loud fight in front of their children, hoping that little Billy and Betty will be able to convince the other that they are right.
Notice how those clamoring the most to end the shutdown are the ones most invested in big government? Keep it shutdown until 01/21/17. The treasury will service the debt. Jack Lew isn't going to be the first treasury secretary who intentionally defaults the government and further tanks the economy. Even if he has no ethics and sense of duty none of his Wall Street buds would hire him after he leaves the treasury if he were to default the government. The democrats are playing a game of chicken they can't afford to lose. The longer this goes on the sooner the states will have consider opting out of federal mandated programs which are seriously impacting their budgets. Without federal money there are no federal strings.
"State workers were not out of work and a paycheck."
A bill is already in the House to give federal workers back pay, as has happened with every government shutdown. Not only that, but work is still getting done, as can be seen in the the fact the NPS are out and obstructing people's right to assemble.
Anyone who refers to Republicans as terrorists in this are intellectual light weights or demagogues or worse. Republicans are holding no hostages, have offered to negotiate, and have even provided multiple concessions to the White House.
They even offered Reid exactly what he wanted -- a clean CR to fund the government for a week to continue discussions.
The White House and Reid rejected it. If you are too stupid, stubborn or deliberately ignorant to accept those facts and insist on the meme that Republicans are terrorists, you just are not a serious thinker. Whether you are Inga, Machine, Jim McDermott, the President of the United States, or anyone else.
There's a place for metaphors and analogies; this is just a rhetorical trick to prey on the stupid. Don't fall for it.
Republicans are terrorists, but Hasan was just an angry co-worker.
Jane,
If the current hopeless state of the insurance exchanges continues (and some of the IT folks apparently think the problems aren't fixable short of a major overhaul), the Democrats might very soon wish for the year's delay of PPACA that the House wants. IIRC the last offer was that and the repeal of the medical-device tax.
The sheer pettiness of the most obvious shutdown activities is staggering. Sure, let's barricade the entrance to the parking lot at Mount Vernon! It's not owned or run by the Federal government; it has no Federal staff at all; but the Federal government is evidently part-owner of the land on which the parking lot sits, so there we are. Take that, you plebes. You already know that interest in the Founding Fathers is a red flag for the IRS. Can't you take a hint?
The Park Service has now taken the barricades down, apparently. But Federal employees went to the (presumably, paid) trouble of putting them up. To save precious Federal cash reserves? I doubt it.
MDT: They were not just paid to put them up. Many had to be purchased; some, like the picture of the poster announcing the closure of the Statue of Liberty, needed to be custom, rush-ordered and designed.
Probably a thousand dollars just for that one sign were spent. Lots and lots of money was wasted to shut things down, even things like the Statue of Liberty that legitimately needed to be closed, could have been done by laminating a print out. Or just locking the door and flipping the Open to Closed sign if they had one.
No one said the law was unalterable. The alterations can come after the government is funded. Why did the Republicans feel they needed to use the shut down of the government as a tool to get their way? That's extortion. I've heard Democrats say the ACA can be improved. But improvment was not the goal of the Republicans, it was to defund the law, which was tried and failed 40 something times.
Exactly. Instead of showing how vital the federal government is, they are showing how capricious it's wrath can be.
Democrats, are you honestly not bothered by the fake closing of parks and the targeting by the IRS? Does this make you question the wisdom of all-encompassing big government at all?
"The alterations can come after the government is funded. Why did the Republicans feel they needed to use the shut down of the government as a tool to get their way?"
-- Republicans offered to fund the government, then talk over the ACA. Reid and Obama refused. But, I've told you that dozens of times now, but you keep insisting on a different version of reality.
Yes Maybee they did, as I said.
Inga- how many bills have been introduced by Democrats to improve The ACA? What were they?
"it was to defund the law, which was tried and failed 40 something times."
-- Republicans offered to fund the government if Reid/Obama would allow Congress to be subjected to the ACA OR to cancel the medical device tax. If Obama/Reid agreed to either of those, the ACA would remain funded as would the rest of the government.
They did not.
Don't mind me. Just trying one more time to see if I can manage to get my blog URL to work as a hyperlink. Third time's the charm?
Matthew Sablan, Yes, that's it: the toxic combination of profligacy and unbelievable pettiness. They'll work to make your life miserable even if it'll cost them a lot of money they don't even have.
The WWII Monument thing was typical. The PandaCam is in some ways even more so. The National Zoo is not going to stop caring for its animals. This is, of course, labor-intensive; you can't do it without staff. But the PandaCam is entirely automated, and probably costs a tiny fraction of one zoo staffer's pay to run (Electricity? Hosting? What?). So let's shut it off. It will not save any money to speak of, but it will get a bunch of people het up. Which is the point.
Is there any Democrat here who will say Obama's tenure as president has proven to them how well a big government can work?
No one said the law was unalterable. The alterations can come after the government is funded. Why did the Republicans feel they needed to use the shut down of the government as a tool to get their way? That's extortion. I've heard Democrats say the ACA can be improved. But improvment was not the goal of the Republicans, it was to defund the law, which was tried and failed 40 something times."
I remember the Reagan Administration. As for improving this abortion that's best done by repealing.
Government can't work when one party has done nothing but obstruct and delay since 2009. What did McConnell say was the goal of the Republican Party after Obama was elected? Remember? When one party is willing to bring down the economy of the country, because their ideological goals are more important than the people, then they do not govern in a Democratic way. I could go so far as to call it treason, but I won't, unlike what some folks have said about Obama.
It appears that the more sane side of the Republican Party have seen what these TeaPublicans have wrought and are searching for a way out. That's encouraging.
So big government can't work if there is opposition?
Again Matthew, for the umpteenth time, negotiations do not get to be hinged on the continuation of the funding of the government. It's extortion and that is not the Democratic way.
TeaPublicans did not want to negotiate in regular order.
And I'll take that as a no, Obam's tenure as president has not shown how well big government can work.
Opposition is good, extortion is bad, how can it be made more clear?
The interstate crack was supposed to sound absurd. The hope was that people would juxtapose it with the closing of an entirely open and totally accessible outdoor monument, or closing parking lots that the NPS operates in conjunction with private historic sites (which sites, it should be noted, actually generate at least a bit of money for the government). They have ordered these things precisely to hurt people, and it is NOT redounding to their benefit. Hence the sarcastic inclusion of the term "geniuses."
A recent report from NBC news stated that police "closed" the Vietnam War Memorial, an open air memorial. The report said that veterans were ordered to disperse.
The president has picked a fight with the wrong people. This will end up with massive civil disobedience and impeachment. True colors are coming out, and those colors are not American.
Trey
Inga, it is not the Republican House that has violated the constitution, it is the Democratic Senate. The senate has not passed a budget in the last 5 years. That violates the constitution. The House has passed dozens of spending bills and sent them to the senate where they were ignored. All spending starts in the House, that is from the constitution.
Trey
Hi Inga,
Trey beat me to it, but let me just add that there goes your tendency again...
Renaming the opposition as extortionists is pretty good evidence that big government just isn't working. What big governments *don't* try to make enemies of the opposition?
History has shown us the more powerful the government gets, the more they try to demonize opponents.
If the Democrats really want big government to work, and they know the ACA is imperfect, and they knew the GOP doesn't like it, where is the democrats' attempt to pass laws improving the ACA? Where is Obama's big meeting with both houses of Congress to discuss improvements?
Instead, it's all demonize demonize demonize.
Or, as the GOP Rep (who supported Obama)said to Obama when he pulled the plug on the Syria threat, "you guys make it really hard to help you, you know?"
The senate passed a budget on March 23, 2013. Why do you folks not know this? Talk about low information voters.
US Senate passes budget
Inga said... that is not the Democratic way
Seems to me that the ACA passage wasn't very 'democratic'. A bill that takes control of ~7% of our economy and our HEALTHCARE for goodness sake, was written in secret by special interests and passed on a straight party-line with bribes and arm-twisting, and through reconciliation. You call that 'democratic'? Yikes.
Perhaps what we are seeing here is the wages of those actions taken in passing this horrible bill.
We are at cross-purposes. I don't want government-controlled healthcare, and don't believe that it will be better, or even good, for the American people. Like all government programs, it will be inefficient and ineffective and rife with corruption, fraud and political 'muscle'.
Maybe if the Democrats had gotten into some actual negotiations and compromise when they rushed the ACA into being the Republicans wouldn't be so united in opposing it. These geniuses love to lecture us about how striking back at bad guys makes more terrorists. How come they can't figure out that shoving odious laws down people's throats against their will makes enemies, too?
Who can be surprised that now that they have the ability to do so, they oppose the law? The amazing thing is that they haven't folded like they have in the past, but maybe the imminent reality of Obamacare is giving them some spines.
I'm sure Harry and Barry thought a day or two of shutdown theater would be enough to get what they wanted, but they weren't counting on their incredible tin ears and transparent disrespect for the public.
"Why do you folks not know this?"
Because we rely on the media for our information? I'm obviously cracking wise, since it was in fact a newsworthy event when it occurred and I noticed it at the time. Mainly because they had failed to do so for YEARS. Because of racist teabaggers, Koch brothers, Halliburton (oldie but goodie), blah blah blah blah blah...
One budget in five years when the law requires one annually all the while ignoring or deep sixing the appropriations bills sent up from the house.
In W's immortal words - "Heck of a job, Brownie"
The Senate passed a budget in March 2013 that they knew wouldn't pass because it raised taxes by $1 trillion.
Not serious.
"Also, health care for children delayed."
No child has had his health *care* delayed. Obamacare is a health "insurance" program.
Medicaid and the federal mandate that no one showing up at a hospital be denied treatment means that virtually everyone who wants to see a doctor sees one.
The health care you may be referring to was enrollment of some children in a cancer study. The GOP specifically proposed to lift that restriction, but the Senate rejected doing so.
"The senate passed a budget on March 23, 2013. Why do you folks not know this? Talk about low information voters."
No. The Senate passed a budget *resolution* that would have to be reconciled with the one proposed by the House before it would have become law.
No budget has been passed *into law* by the Senate after being reconciled with House proposals since April 2009.
So some say "lets pass a Clean CR and then we can negotiate about obamacare."
So if that happens why would the dems bother to negotiate on it? When have they negotiated anything recently that didn't involve a crisis of their making
I don't understand this crap about 'extortion'. You can't pay the bills you have. The donks want to double down on stupid.
Considering that the Donks have quadrupled deficit spending and have nothing to show for it...no, no they shouldn't get any more money. They need to account for what they've spent already and can't...so anybody that lends or enables those cretins is a sucker.
.....and, congress didn't read the bill, and they didn't understand it.
But now, they are about the purpose of using our tax dollars to make sure they get a good deal - Gold level healthcare paid by the taxpayers.
What was good for the 'people' apparently isn't good enough for them and their family and staff.
But Ingrid is such a good little soldier to keep defending this bill.
Crimso, perhaps some listen too much to Rush Limbaugh and Fox and that is why they didn't know the senate passed a budget in March.
Lily, it's a law, not a bill.
Inga said...
Lily, it's a law, not a bill.
Well, aren't you charming?
Its a bad law. It will harm the average American.
Inga
Are you going to keep ignoring the fact that this is the first budget put forth since 2009? Or is the fact that they finally passed one now completely negate the failure to do so for the past 4 years?
Article I and the Congressional Budget Act are laws too, aren't they?
Lily blame The Hertage Foundation, it was their idea.
Inga,
The budget passed in March was for 2014. The House and Senate versions were voted on time. Obama presented his version in April, 3 weeks later than he was supposed to.
The budget reconciliation process has been hindered by Harry Reid since then. The Republican budget was taking the Sequester funding levels as a baseline, the Senate version wanted to use the pre-Sequester levels. Reid refused to negotiate until the House agreed to take the Senate baselines as a starting point. (And nevermind the President's budget, which started higher than the Senate's.)
And that was in March. Reid's refused to negotiate a budget for 6 months.
You're also willfully ignoring the budgets for 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. Reid's been blocking budgets from being passed for years. And what has it won him and the Democrats, an increasingly belligerent House of Representatives.
Meanwhile, the President has decreed that the employer mandate, which also was supposed to start this month, can be delayed a year. The President has given out waivers to thousands of preferred businesses and local governments, exempting them providing the insurance coverage guaranteed to their employees. Neither of those actions are actually allowed under the Affordable Care Act.
On top of that, the roll-out of the individual market insurance web sites looks to be like a terrible mess from an IT stand-point. They could have really used an additional year to get them right. Instead, they current system appears to be a creating its own DDOS attack when users attempt to sign up.
Republicans blocked requests for a Budget Conference 18 times from March onwards. It was requested that many times and blocked by various Republicans, Ted Cruz being one of them.
Inga, you keep ignoring Obama begging the senate to vote against raising the debt limit in 2006. Was he a terrorist then?
And yourself said that the dems should not fund cancer patients because it would make republicans look good. Sounds you are the terrorist.
Inga said...
Lily blame The Hertage Foundation, it was their idea.
That's a twisted version of the truth, and you'd know it if you watched anything other than CNN and MSNBC.
Here is a budget proposal: abolish all entitlement spending for healthy able bodied adults. They should be supporting themselves. Taxes are for services not for charity and income redistribution. The longer the government stays shut down the better. As for pay reimbursement, screw that. If they aren't essential they should be treated as a private sector employee thats been laid off.
Lily, what do you think RomneyCare was based on? Was Romney a Republican? Why, yes!
Inga
At least most Republicans can admit that RomneyCare was a mistake.
And I guess you will ignore the failures of your party to pass an annual budget in accordance with the law.
I am trying to understand how fighting for a contrary position meets the Webster definition of obstruction:
: something that blocks something else and makes it difficult for things to move through
: the condition of being blocked so that things cannot move through easily
: the act of making it difficult for something to happen or move forward
This word indicates no intent other than to block the other. If one side votes no because they are opposed to the policy and have an alternative policy i.e. tax vs tax cut. Voting against a tax cut is not obstruction, no more than a tug of war is obstruction, or arm wrestling. The no's just want to go the other way. This is just another attempt to demean the opposition. Refusal to negotiate is obstruction.
A statute is not a law until it has been tried in the courts and accepted by the judges at common law, or has stood without challenge since time out of mind.
(Sir Edward Coke)
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/iwo-jima-memorial-closed-barricades-erected_759277.html
They Barry-caded the Iwo Jima memorial. WTF.
Some parks service employee is going to get killed. I'll just chalk it up to Darwinian evolution.
So, Obama, Reid, and the vast majority of Democrats will, once again, threaten granny's retirement, starve the children, and molest veterans as they reminisce over fallen heroes.
I wonder how important sacrificial rites (e.g. abortion) is to the Democrats. Are they willing to sacrifice the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in order to indulge their patrons' dreams of irresponsible, liberal behaviors?
There's no need for fiscal panic; there's more than enough revenue to pay all the debts. What we cannot do is to keep up with the welfare AND military AND obamacare AND Michelle's vacations AND pay the debts. Something has to give.
And at this point, I'm ready to start mass impeachments. Let's impeach EVERYBODY in a leadership post in the Executive Branch, and EVERYBODY in a leadership post in both the House and Senate. Too bad we cannot also impeach all nine of the Supremes.
Or, let's go with Mark Levin's "Liberty Amendments" and try rolling back the vast expanse of the Federal government back to the point when it sort-of worked.
Inga - in response to your question about why the Republicans are doing it this way, and not the logical way of separating funding from ObamaCare - the answer is that they tried it that way first. They have passed umpteen repeals and delays of ObamaCare, and Sen Reid has made sure that they never made it to the floor for a vote. Money is the one place they have leverage, and that is why they are using it here.
The libtards want to blame the mandate on Romney. But Romney was outgunned in the legislature in MA. The dems were lining up to do something ridiculously stupid, that would have been a nightmare of adverse selection.
Romney went along with the mandate because that was the only thing that could possibly keep premiums from spiraling out of control. If he vetoed it outright, he would have been overridden.
Even then, insurance rates in MA exploded to become the most expensive in the country.
And Obamacare, concieved and implemented by idiots, makes it 20 percent more expensive than that.
Thank God for Romney, though, or it would have collapsed entirely. Dems are that stupid.
Really. There's no possible way to overstate their foolishness. It's off the charts.
The British Labour Party nationalized British health care in 1948, and today, 65 years later, fighting over the NHS still takes up about a quarter or so of their total time in "Prime Minister's Questions" sessions every week Parliament is in session.
In this country, the court suits over "Obamacare" have just begun to be filed, since it is generally necessary to prove "injury" in order to have "standing." As long as any part of this is on the books, "health care litigation" is going to be a legal specialty employing legions of lawyers.
The British Labour Party nationalized British health care in 1948, and today, 65 years later, fighting over the NHS still takes up about a quarter or so of their total time in "Prime Minister's Questions" sessions every week Parliament is in session.
They debate the details and how to fix the problems that arise in any human system, but the basic legitimacy of the NHS isn't questioned in the UK and the Conservatives don't try to defund it at every opportunity. That's not the case here and I'd happily trade the GOP for the Tories any day.
It's their only way out.
We could use a breakup, I mean a secession.
True, "the basic legitimacy is not questioned," but then it is also a different system in a different setting than the U.S., the U.K. for one having a parliamentary political system, and of course, having had mostly avowed socialist governments since the Great Depression.
It is telling though, that "somefeller" accepted "Obamacare" as essentially similar in purpose to the nationalized NHS of the U.K.
Another thing to note is that David Cameron's, the "moderate" P.M. of the present sort of Conservative government, main argument for his stewardship of the NHS seems to be that however bad the NHS functions in England, it is even worse in Wales, where the Welsh Labour government is in charge of it!
All of these sudden rule of law Democrats are hilarious. I thought you guys loved truth to power, Wendy Davis filibusters, flee the State to avoid bills from passing kind of people.
But I guess you only love that when its your team. Partisans.
Hey Lem, who would go where? How would it be broken up?
Hey Lem, who would go where? How would it be broken up?
I don't know... the geographical one failed before.
wholelottasplainin',
"Also, health care for children delayed."
Well, there are the child cancer patients shut out of NIH critical trials. But when the House tries to fund that work specifically, the Senate is not interested.
A clean CR could be brought to the floor and voted on and the entire government, including the NIH, could be up and running...but the Repuplicans are not interested.
How many people would really be upset if they woke up and found a military coup had happened since the elected Federal government is now completely dysfunctional?
"Congress is dissolved, former President Obama is now in the plushest VIP guest house on Andrews AFB golf course. Federal courts are suspended except in cases where your military leadership deems litigation is an appropriate descision path.
Entitlements are now to be subject to a cost-benefits test to address the deficit. Obamacare is scrapped as unworkable.
The Constitution is suspended and all provisions subject to challenge. For starters, anchor baby citizenship is ended.
To facilitate these changes, some 580,000 lawyers in the Beltway are furloughed."
"There will be changes to the media, but most directed at getting Americans a full and balanced picture of the issues and events."
This takeover will be done only due to national emergency, and a revised Constitution and new Parliamentary system of governance will be installed once the military, and the populace, believe America has recovered."
Democrat Senate playing politics with cancer ridden children. Party of no, part of their way.
Great web ste developers as well.
If the government is so crummy that it can't get a work around for cancer trials and is wasting time and money blockading open air monuments, I don't see why I should care whether it's shut down or not.
Plus, let's face it, it's not shut down; it's "shut down."
I would care if it were actually shut down.
somefeller said...
The British Labour Party nationalized British health care in 1948, and today, 65 years later, fighting over the NHS still takes up about a quarter or so of their total time in "Prime Minister's Questions" sessions every week Parliament is in session.
They debate the details and how to fix the problems that arise in any human system, but the basic legitimacy of the NHS isn't questioned in the UK and the Conservatives don't try to defund it at every opportunity. That's not the case here and I'd happily trade the GOP for the Tories any day.
10/5/13, 5:35 PM
The Tories are essentially the equivalent of the Democratic Party. As for the wonders of the NHS, try reading the Brit papers. It's so wonderful that upper middle class Brits-your heart be still!- actually buy their own private health insurance and even more shocking engage in medical tourism.
All these fanboys of Obama and ObamaCare riddle me this: if the reason this thing was passed because thirty million or is it fifty million people-the numbers are so flexible- are uninsured and those very same people are required by January 1st to have applications in for said insurance it doesn't say much for the competence of this Administration who now whines they weren't ready for all of these applications. If they are this incompetent just with the data entry and application aspect of the websites do you really think they will actually manage healthcare any better?
A clean CR could be brought to the floor and voted on and the entire government, including the NIH, could be up and running...but the Republicans are not interested.
In other words, as long as you get everything you want, it's considered the democratic process at work. The Democrat Senate has killed virtually every stopgap funding bill that has come to them since the slim down, which is unprecedented.
And yet it's the Republicans that aren't interested?
"A clean CR could be brought to the floor and voted on and the entire government, including the NIH, could be up and running...but the Repuplicans are not interested."
GOP voted to fund the cancer research, but the democrats, including you prefer children to be hostages.
, but the basic legitimacy of the NHS isn't questioned in the UK and the Conservatives don't try to defund it at every opportunity
Nobddy is talking about defunding it, but they have to cut costs. There was just a gigantic protest march in Manchester because of the upcoming cuts to the NHS. It was said to be the biggest protest in Manchester history.
There is a controversy about the protest, though, because someone told the BBC not to film it, so they didn't.
The joys of all the government-sponsored entities.
"Again Matthew, for the umpteenth time, negotiations do not get to be hinged on the continuation of the funding of the government."
-- There was no negotiation about funding the government! Republicans were GIVING them that! It would be literally if I came up to you, offered to pay all of your bills, and then you said NO!
Democrats chose the shut down; it's not even a matter of historical or policy debate. They were offered what they asked for, then said no! How hard is this to understand?
"A clean CR could be brought to the floor and voted on and the entire government, including the NIH, could be up and running...but the Repuplicans are not interested."
-- They OFFERED A CLEAN CR BEFORE THE SHUTDOWN. Reid said NO. Why can't you understand this?
"Even a one-week stop-gap plan - floated by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) as part of a larger package - was roundly dismissed by Democratic leaders as well as conservative Republicans."
They don't want a clean CR; they want complete and total surrender.
Only when the people will start returning to their jobs.
Thanks
Silvester Norman
Changing MAC Address
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