Even with the NSA surveillance story at the top of the news this week, I clicked on that NYT headline and opened a tab fully expecting to get to a poll about the extent to which people decide they don't want a relationship with you after they discover — for example — that your Bruce Springsteen albums outnumber your Bob Dylan.
All morning I've been doing other posts and having in the back of my mind that I'd get to this interesting topic. Finally, I clicked on the tab....
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६४ टिप्पण्या:
Springstein is still a Northeastern cult figure. No blasphemy please.
Why do we let low info voters vote?
"Springstein is still a Northeastern cult figure. No blasphemy please."
I'm sorry. I'll be over here, blaspheming with Meade.
I would have broken up with a girlfriend after I found out she was into Phil Collins but by then we were having sex.
These polls are so obviously a joke. PEW came out with a poll showing a majority of Americans supported Obama and the surveillance. The NYT writes the lede in a way that makes it seem like Americans are not outraged at this. This is wrong and an obvious attempt to control the narrative.
Go out and talk to people. Everywhere. They are angry. Not small numbers either. It is difficult to find someone who supports this activity outside of DC I imagine.
fully expecting to get to a poll about the extent to which people decide they don't want a relationship with you after they discover — for example — that your Bruce Springsteen albums outnumber your Bob Dylan.
I gave some thought to whether I'd even been tempted to do that, and pretty much came up "no," even though some girls I dated had some pretty questionable taste in music.
While thinking though, I also figured out that pretty much each girl with whom I'd had even a semi-significant relationship has made her mark in my music collection.
Then I gave it some more thought and decided that cannot be at all unique.
The number of people who still think of grooved black vinyl when seeing see the word "records" must be very small.
And the number of people who make personal decisions based on which "records" another person has kept on display must be even smaller.
That said, my son saw the record collection of a friend who used to be a morning DJ here in Milwaukee and exclaimed "Dad, look at those giant CD's!"
Achilles said...
"It is difficult to find someone who supports this activity outside of DC I imagine."
Maybe in your milieu. But depending on which poll you read, a little more or a less less than half the country is indifferent.
Achilles said...
These polls are so obviously a joke. PEW came out with a poll showing a majority of Americans supported Obama and the surveillance. The NYT writes the lede in a way that makes it seem like Americans are not outraged at this. This is wrong and an obvious attempt to control the narrative.
Go out and talk to people. Everywhere. They are angry. Not small numbers either. It is difficult to find someone who supports this activity outside of DC I imagine.
Sounds like the "election" last fall.
Simon said...
Achilles said...
"It is difficult to find someone who supports this activity outside of DC I imagine."
Maybe in your milieu. But depending on which poll you read, a little more or a less less than half the country is indifferent.
6/12/13, 1:43 PM
The polls are a joke. That you didn't read my post or understand it may be why you are susceptible to their manipulation. Only a product of the public education system would take anything the media puts out there as information, much less truth.
lemondog said...
"First Lawsuit Over NSA Phone Scandal Targets Obama, Verizon"
Nothing more than a press release on pleading paper. There's no fourth amendment issue to which they're a party. There's no fifth amendment issue at all. The first amendment thing—I don't know free speceh doctrine that well, but I know enough to assume that they are alleging a "chilling" effect, and I don't see how that's going to work either.
edutcher said...
Achilles said...
...
Sounds like the "election" last fall.
6/12/13, 1:44 PM
Remember, not a single person in over 40 Philadelphia voting precincts voted for Mitt Romney. Statistically impossible? Not according to the "new math" taught in our schools.
If I saw that someone had a Springsteen collection that started with "Born in the USA", I would be vaguely tempted to shun them.
If I saw that their collection ended with "The River", however, I'd know I found a kindred spirit. :)
Springstein is still a Northeastern cult figure. No blasphemy please.
Isn't blasphemous to misspell his name?
There's no fourth amendment issue to which they're a party.
There is if one of them is a Verizon customer. :)
Mitchell the Bat said...
I would have broken up with a girlfriend after I found out she was into Phil Collins but by then we were having sex.
Phil Collins is a great drummer, especially on the Gabriel era Genesis stuff.
More Yankovic (Frankie) than Springsteen? Propah!
Simon said...
lemondog said...
"First Lawsuit Over NSA Phone Scandal Targets Obama, Verizon"
Nothing more than a press release on pleading paper. There's no fourth amendment issue to which they're a party. There's no fifth amendment issue at all. The first amendment thing—I don't know free speceh doctrine that well, but I know enough to assume that they are alleging a "chilling" effect, and I don't see how that's going to work either.
6/12/13, 1:49 PM
So do you support Obama? Are you like him a fascist yourself or are you an apologist for fascism?
Achilles said...
"That you didn't read my post or understand it may be why you are susceptible to their manipulation."
Your post asserted that if one should talk to "people," "everywhere," they are "angry"—so many of them, in fact, that it should be "difficult to find someone who supports this activity outside of DC," you imagine. You imagine wrong. Perhaps people in your milieu are angry, but it is not at all difficult to find people outside the beltway who support this activity. Your present interlocutor, for example, has never been within a few hundred miles of DC.
"Only a product of the public education system would take anything the media puts out there as information, much less truth."
I'm not a product of the American school system, but nice try.
Achilles said...
"So do you support Obama? Are you like him a fascist yourself or are you an apologist for fascism?"
I support this program. I worked to prevent Obama's election twice. I voted for the other guy and I wish like hell they had won. Thus, I support the President on this issue, but oppose this President on virtually everything else.
Fascist? Hardly. I'm a conservative, and so I believe that the government ought to do what the government traditionally does. The first and fundamental job of the government is to protect the nation from foreign threats, and that it should use all legal measures that are reasonably-calculated to help. The program (from what we know if it) is legal, and the president is the appropriate actor to decide whether it's reasonable—to engage in the liberty-versus-security balancing that many claim to want done yet actually demand to judge themselves—and we must defer to the President's judgment. That is so even when the President is someone for whom I did not vote.
Simon said...
First Lawsuit Over NSA Phone Scandal Targets Obama, Verizon
Nothing more than a press release on pleading paper. There's no fourth amendment issue to which they're a party. There's no fifth amendment issue at all. The first amendment thing—I don't know free speceh doctrine that well, but I know enough to assume that they are alleging a "chilling" effect, and I don't see how that's going to work either.
Some background here.
According to this, Klayman's a former DOJ lawyer, so he should know what will fly.
So do you support Obama? Are you like him a fascist yourself or are you an apologist for fascism?
Obama is a corporatist, like FDR. He is not a fascist.
Simon is also not a fascist. He's just a big government conservative.
If I saw that their collection ended with "The River", however, I'd know I found a kindred spirit.
I mostly agree. However, I would consider "The Rising" an exception to your rule.
Every single utterance Achilles makes is the God awful TRUTH, Simon, dontcha know? He has inside knowledge ....hey just how did he get that info???
Achilles demands rigid and unwavering loyalty for HIS agenda. How dare any self respecting conservative cross HIM!
"Phil Collins is a great drummer"
Yes, but he needs to have his mouth taped shut.
Inga said...
Every single utterance Achilles makes is the God awful TRUTH, Simon, dontcha know? He has inside knowledge ....hey just how did he get that info???
No comment on that one size fits all insurance we're all about to get?
You'll need better lawyers than Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe to save your ass.
To the Silver Haired Angel of Death, you're just another peon.
leslyn said...
Only a product of the public education system would take anything the media puts out there as information, much less truth.
Ah. A self-professed elite. They always know what's best for the rest of us
No, dear, that's your gig.
'Cause HE, Achilles, FOUGHT for this country, HE alone with his bare hands took on an Army of Muslims. Never mind the other troops who also fought for this country, God forbid they may actually be liberals, or....progressives!!!
Inga said...
Every single utterance Achilles makes is the God awful TRUTH, Simon, dontcha know? He has inside knowledge ....hey just how did he get that info???
6/12/13, 2:05 PM
Spooky huh. I was a part of the team in Afghanistan doing what the NSA is doing here to Americans. I can easily say they are reading transcripts of phone calls of thousands if not millions of Americans. When we did it overseas we were fighting the enemies of our country. When they are doing it here with no oversight or transparency that crosses the line of "reasonable search and seizure."
Sure, right Achilles, I believe every word you say, because YOU say I should.
lemondog said...
"First Lawsuit Over NSA Phone Scandal Targets Obama, Verizon"
I deleted that as off topic... but here's the link provided:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/nsa-phone-lawsuit/
I don't want to talk about the lawsuits here. There was a post yesterday about the ACLU lawsuit. This post is about misreading headlines and relationships and record collections.
If you want to talk about the poll, that's okay, but there have been so many posts about the NSA story.
Let's not have this thread be another one.
Inga said...
'Cause HE, Achilles, FOUGHT for this country, HE alone with his bare hands took on an Army of Muslims. Never mind the other troops who also fought for this country, God forbid they may actually be liberals, or....progressives!!!
6/12/13, 2:12 PM
That is because most of them are apolitical. Most of them are 20 something kids who train all day and get drunk at night. The enlisted and NCO core are generally described as "just leave me alone" types. And there is no love for government control. We generally believe strongly in freedom.
The Officer core is more political for sure and there are a few more liberal minded people in there, but no progressives.
These days, I'm hanging out with people who use the word 'records' and 'albums', even when talking about Compact discs.
I had a friend back in the college days who was the LP equivalent of a bibliomaniac. He had thousands upon thousands of records (working at a record store and a radio station helped). He bought about 30 different copies of the Police's Synchronicity because he figured out that there were that many subtle variants on the album cover design.
Inga said...
Sure, right Achilles, I believe every word you say, because YOU say I should.
6/12/13, 2:16 PM
Ok you fascist whore. One thing I can safely say is I have far more integrity than you. I can look in the mirror and be proud of who I am. If I hide anything here it is because of the clearances I have. Anyone who knows about these things will understand what I am saying and will recognize the context I use.
Achilles, you need to know the She Wolf of the SS fought through to the Holy Grail of Righteous Defeat at Alamein, Cassino, Stalingrad, Bastogne, Rabaul, Leyte Gulf, and Imphal.
Her "daughter" now defends the Republic from A-stan where she is a corpseman.
If you want to talk about the poll, that's okay, but there have been so many posts about the NSA story.
Yep... too much of something that turns into nothing.
Simon said...
Achilles said...
"So do you support Obama? Are you like him a fascist yourself or are you an apologist for fascism?"
I support this program. I worked to prevent Obama's election twice. I voted for the other guy and I wish like hell they had won. Thus, I support the President on this issue, but oppose this President on virtually everything else.
6/12/13, 1:58 PM
So you know that this administration has taken the 5th or exerted executive privilege to block investigations numerous times and has used several branches of the bureaucracy to suppress opposing views and you support giving them this power? They have abused the powers of the IRS and FBI and you think they aren't abusing the powers of a secret program they didn't want you to know about?
Seriously?
Ann Althouse said...
If you want to talk about the poll, that's okay, but there have been so many posts about the NSA story.
Let's not have this thread be another one.
6/12/13, 2:18 PM
When I click on the link to the NYT in the original post I get a story on the NSA scandal and polls about that. I see nothing about Springsteen or Dylan.
Revenant said...
"Simon is also not a fascist. He's just a big government conservative."
I resent that. I am no such thing.
Achilles said...
"So you know that this administration has taken the 5th or exerted executive privilege to block investigations numerous times…."
As did the Bush administration, which I supported at the time, and which I continue to support now, notwithstanding the shift in partisan valences.
"and has used several branches of the bureaucracy to suppress opposing views and you support giving them this power?"
And those abuses are scandalous. The IRS business is a real scandal. What's interesting, though, is that the IRS thing is a real scandal even if one doesn't believe that the IRS should be abolished. The scandal in the IRS business is the abuse of a legitimate and legal governmental function. The alleged scandal in the PRISM business is the use of a legitimate and legal government function; if the mere possibility of abuse could impeach the existence of a program, there would be no government programs. Of course it's tempting to take advantage of that point for its immediate utility—I would shutter most of what the federal government does today, but not for that reason. Not on that principle. That principle is dangerous; it threatens to throw out the baby with the bathwater, indiscriminately shuttering not only the activities that are progressive overreach but traditional governmental functions that are entirely appropriate and necessary.
"They have abused the powers of the IRS and FBI and you think they aren't abusing the powers of a secret program they didn't want you to know about?"
They very well might be. The remedy is to elect a better quality of President than the dipstick that America picked, twice, over my strenuous objections. I fancy that there are some people who now regret that choice, in part because while they trusted Obama to deliver his misbegotten healthcare law, they certainly don't trust him to run a program like this.
Achilles, you are an extremist weirdo.
Blogger Simon said...
They very well might be. The remedy is to elect a better quality of President than the dipstick that America picked, twice, over my strenuous objections. I fancy that there are some people who now regret that choice, in part because while they trusted Obama to deliver his misbegotten healthcare law, they certainly don't trust him to run a program like this.
6/12/13, 2:51 PM
This is why we were founded as a representative republic, not a democracy. As long as you support the government having this type of power the minority will always be at the mercy of the majority. This is the fallacy of conservativism and it's failure.
Inga said...
Achilles, you are an extremist weirdo.
6/12/13, 2:52 PM
And you are a greedy taker who votes for whomever will give you more of other peoples stuff.
That Obama uses the government to suppress the views of those you don't like is just icing on the cake.
"The first and fundamental job of the government is to protect the nation from foreign threats...."
Sez who?!
In my view, the first and fundamental job of government is to provide a safe, functional, equitable and just society for all its citizens.
We have no serious "foreign threats" to speak of, and rarely have in our history. We have (and have had) enemies, but most of them are people we have fucked in one way or another, and they have have virtually no potential to cause us existential harm.
As for the poll, the number of Dylan albums and Sprinsteen albums in my record collection is equal: 0.
I've never had the slightest interest in either of them. They have each written their share of good songs, but they're best performed by others.
Why Springstein has a cult following is a mystery to me.
My Step daughter's Husband, who is from Connecticut and attended Penn and then Duke law School, still goes to Springstein's Concerts like the Pope is visiting town.
To each their own identity in music, I suppose. My son who attended school in Texas still loves the Crying In Their Beer Cowboys style unique to the Austin, Texas area.
Bob Dylan is way over their heads.
Hmm, let's see... just counting studio albums, I have:
9 Black Sabbath
14 Pink Floyd
14 Genesis
10 Journey
6 Foreigner
9 Led Zeppelin
4 Boston
19 Rush
12 Judas Priest
12 Dream Theater
15 Iron Maiden
14 Queen
11 Styx
10 Queensryche
and a metric buttload of Christian rock among others.
No Dylan. No Springsteen. And that suits me fine.
Speaking of education and music styles, how about Inga's commenting style these days.
She is confidently standing up to the usual right wing fire and never surrenders, or even shows her pain anymore.
I think Inga has earned herself an Honorary Scots-Irish Warrior's Diploma. Welcome to the Clan, Inga.
For commencement music we will be playing "A mighty Fortress is Our God" or "Ein festa Burg ist unser Gott", which was a German hymn before we stole it.
Achilles said...
"This is why we were founded as a representative republic, not a democracy."
We were founded as a constitutional republican in the Anglo-American tradition, and that's what we ought to remain.
Robert Cook said...
"Sez who?!"
Says everyone, ever, except wild-eyed radical interventionists who go about advocating modernist nonsense like "the first and fundamental job of government is to provide a safe, functional, equitable and just society for all its citizens." That whole concept is alien to our tradition—"The men who wrote the Bill of Rights were not concerned that government might do too little for the people but that it might do too much to them. The Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868 at the height of laissez-faire thinking, sought to protect Americans from oppression by state government, not to secure them basic governmental services." Jackson v. City of Joliet, 715 F.2d 1200, 1203 (7th Cir. 1983) (Posner, J.).
"We have no serious 'foreign threats' to speak of, and rarely have in our history."
Yeah? Tell that to Yeah? Go tell the families of Krystle Cambell, Martin Richard, Lingzi Lu, and Sean Collier. Tell them how their loved ones weren't killed by a serious threat. Tell it to the families of Gordon Aamoth, Edelmiro Abad, Maria Rose Abad, Andrew Abate, Vincent Abate, Laurence Abel, William Abrahamson, Richard Aceto, Jesus Rescand, Heinrich Ackermann, Paul Acquaviva, Donald LaRoy Adams, Patrick Adams, Shannon Lewis Adams,
Stephen George Adams, Ignatius Udo Adanga, Christy A. Addamo, Terence E. Adderley, Jr., Sophia Buruwad Addo, Lee Allan Adler, Daniel Thomas Afflitto, Emmanuel Akwasi Afuakwah, Alok Agarwal, Mukul Kumar Agarwala, Joseph Agnello, David Scott Agnes, Brian G. Ahearn, Jeremiah Joseph Ahern, Joanne Marie Ahladiotis, Shabbir Ahmed, Terrance Andre Aiken, Godwin Ajala, Gertrude M. Alagero, Andrew Alameno, Margaret Ann Alario… shall I go on or do you get the point?
Robert Cook said...
"The first and fundamental job of the government is to protect the nation from foreign threats...."
Sez who?!"
He should have specified the FEDERAL Government. If he had he would have been absolutely correct.
"In my view, the first and fundamental job of government is to provide a safe, functional, equitable and just society for all its citizens."
Spoken like a true Stalinist. Or maybe Maoist. This is the sentiment that has led to the most prolific killing in human history: government sponsored killing.
"We have no serious "foreign threats" to speak of, and rarely have in our history. We have (and have had) enemies, but most of them are people we have fucked in one way or another, and they have have virtually no potential to cause us existential harm."
6/12/13, 3:09 PM
You are not this stupid. Saying this can only come from malign intent. If you believe this move to China or Afghanistan or anywhere else really. You need to see the world from outside our borders.
Simon said...
Achilles said...
"This is why we were founded as a representative republic, not a democracy."
We were founded as a constitutional republican in the Anglo-American tradition, and that's what we ought to remain.
6/12/13, 4:20 PM
Constitutional representative republic, but not in the Anglo-American tradition. Most democracies were Parliamentary not Republican. We started with a limited government of proscribed powers. Limited by the Bill of Rights which grants the people a right against unreasonable searches and seizures in the 4th amendment.
If you believe it is reasonable for the government to have access to all of my written and spoken communication for their perusal without any due process on my part we differ on the word reasonable. The fact they are doing it secretly crosses the line into pure fascism. Somehow they found the word abortion in the 4th amendment though. Amazing flexibility that.
Why should they have access to my private communications? And how come I cannot see theirs? Isn't the government supposed to be Of, By, and For the people? We are no longer citizens with due process rights if the government can decide with a majority of voters that they can surveil and repress the minority.
Forgive my flub—constitutional republic, not republican. But I wouldn't accept the addition of "representative" and I wouldn't accept the subtraction of the anglo-american tradition. It seems a stretch to say that the United States was founded as a "representative" republic, insofar as that term seems to imply a predominance of the public's representatives. In the original constitutional design, the public were represented only in the House; Senators represented the States, and the President was effectively chosen by the states. The Presidency migrated closer to the people by the kind of slow, organic growth of which conservatives approve: Over the ensuing half-century, the states dabbled in various methods of selection and in due course converged on the system that we know today, a system still enforced by honor, not law. By contrast, the Senate was wrenched from its original function in a sudden and senseless paroxysm of progressive "reform" less than a century ago, a departure from the tradition that ought to be undone. One can certainly argue that "representative" elements dominated the constitution, but I think that by "representative," one tends to think "representing the people"—which tends to mean "directly representing the people," and that just isn't the case.
And yes, certainly, it was in the tradition. The framers we not revolutionaries—that is a liberal mistake, not a conservative one. The framers believed that they were reclaiming the ancient liberties of Englishmen, liberties that the Crown was trampling. They were counterrevolutionaries if anything; it was only after the revolution that they set out to try and figure out how to adapt and improve their inherited forms, and the Constitution that they adopted only makes sense when read in the context of that tradition.
And while you're certainly right that the Fourth Amendment protects the people's right against unreasonable searches and seizures, that doesn't help in this case, for the reasons that we've discussed in other threads.
Some of us are smart enough to know that if the gov't or anybody else collects 3 billion of anything is not going to be able to listen, watch, read or do much of anything else. But just in case I'm going to preface all my communications with the phrase "Bite me Barry". See you in the Gulag.
Thanks Trad Guy.
I sang that hymn many times growing up.
Revenant said...
" If I saw that someone had a Springsteen collection that started with "Born in the USA", I would be vaguely tempted to shun them.
If I saw that their collection ended with "The River", however, I'd know I found a kindred spirit. :)"
What about those of us whose collections would end with "The River' if we were starting over, but went 3 or 4 albums past it in the hope that he would return to form. I've got a lot of mediocre to poor albums because I took a chance that the new album would be as good as the previous work. Of course, good bad, or indifferent, I've got every album or CD I've ever bought (and I've been buying them for almost 50 years).
Achilles wrote:
This is why we were founded as a representative republic, not a democracy. As long as you support the government having this type of power the minority will always be at the mercy of the majority. This is the fallacy of conservativism and it's failure.
they don't. They have access to numbers calli g other numbers not your actual conversation. Lindsay Graham pointed out that the numbers aren't even attached to names until a warrant is issued on specific numbers.
And as Simon poi Ted out, the court has already ruled on the issue of whether govt can use these numbers. They can. And they ruled that way before there was an NSA program.
I resent that. I am no such thing.
Big government conservatives are an odd thing. Nobody will admit to being one, and yet they've controlled the Republican Party for most of the last eighty years or so.
Weird.
Revenant said...
"Big government conservatives are an odd thing. Nobody will admit to being one, and yet they've controlled the Republican Party for most of the last eighty years or so."
Perhaps so, but I have explained in some detail why that label doesn't apply to me. I would shutter most of the federal government, so the idea that I'm a "big government conservative" makes sense only if one believes (as I'm sure some do) that the federal government was too big before the progressive era. I'm sure that there are libertarians who argue for that result, but the idea that I'm sympatico with, say, David Brooks, is just laughable.
No, Simon, I don't get your point. Listing a partial list of names of people who have apparently been killed by violent act without context or identification does not make a point.
"'In my view, the first and fundamental job of government is to provide a safe, functional, equitable and just society for all its citizens.'
"Spoken like a true Stalinist. Or maybe Maoist."
Uh, neither.
Spoken by someone who agrees with the ideals of democratic self-governance and who does not agree that "society" is merely a collection of individuals engaged in a brutal one-against-all competition for the most spoils.
Has no one contemplated that an aggregator of records could also be an editor of them? What better way and by which more capable power than central government to weave a completey believalbe yet totally false narrative from the records they collect. Take the newly released picture of Snowden with his pants down. Real or photoshopped? Whodunnit. Means, motive, ability; central government.
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