ADDED: And then there's the less famous question: Why does this post have no link? If you really need a link for Freud's having said "What does woman want?" (or the alternate translations, "What do women want?"/"What does a woman want?"), feel free to Google it and get millions of search results. If you want a link for the statement, "Give women what they ask for and when the demands end, the answer will be known," that would be a link to this very post. It's my aphorism. If you want a link to what made me think about this, that's not how things work around here, where the conversation goes on and on, which is one of the many things women want.
१८ फेब्रुवारी, २०१३
The answer to Freud's famous question "What does woman want?"
Give women what they ask for and when the demands end, the answer will be known.
याची सदस्यत्व घ्या:
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
१२९ टिप्पण्या:
The demands don't, and won't end.
They just escalate.
As if everyone else serves as Santa Clause ad infinitum?
Why does no one expect the same deal for men?
When it comes to Freud: women want you to believe them when they tell you they were sexually molested and raped as children.
"more"
Give women what they ask for and when the demands end, the answer will be known.
Also known as the Neville Chamberlain method.
Link, ref?
As Liz notes, it's odd that nobody asks the same question about men.
There's an underlying assumption that women are minus something that they should rightfully be getting. I don't have a clue what that might be.
What drives this is chivalry. When women make goo-goo eyes at their daddy or lover, men feel compelled to make them happy with whatever their little hearts desire. If their little baby doesn't have what she wants, the fault must lie with those other, evil men who deny it to her.
Give women what they ask for and when the demands end, the answer will be known.
This can be visually plotted along a Möbius Strip.
phx,
It's revealing that you suggest that women need to be "handled," while men need to be "dealt with."
Given this distinction, I agree with you.
I just read on the Instapundit that they want their ideal man to be 8 inches taller than them.
Look, I can now get you the pony, but I don't have a time machine to go back and give it to you when you were twelve.
They might be perfectly happy, Then Along Comes Mary.
Am I the only one who sees a bit of dry humor in the answer? I'm not familiar with Freud's writing, did he show any wit?
And if this is a serious answer, it assumes that what women want, or believe they want, is also what will satisify them. I don't think that's true of most people, regardless of sex.
Then, sometimes, they just want a mysterious stranger to follow them to their apartments on the corners of hidden streets. They could then turn and smile back at the mysterious stranger before fading through a door into warm darkness. Followed by candles and a bubble bath. Bubbles, delightful bubbles, eveytwhere.
"Link, ref?"
You want a link for the fact that Freud said that, like to the page that Google returns when you search for the quote? Not worth doing.
You want a link to what made think that? Deliberately withheld.
Yes, I thought there was something online that prompted the post.
Fair enough, Althouse.
Whatever you want!
I was arguing about the term "misogynist" on Facebook a couple of days ago.
I argued that it is a nonsense word, since nobody really hates women as a group.
Everybody likes some women and doesn't like others. Some people like conservative, religious women. Others like liberal, secular women.
The term actually means "a person who disagrees with my political ideology regarding women.
Or, alternatively, the term means "a person who doesn't give the stuff to a particular woman that she wants right now."
Perhaps the bubble bath had been left on their doorstep by a Secret Admirer. That would make it even better.
Men, women, in my view there is no end to their wants, needs, desires, rights, entitlements. Most of them are harmless, I say give them what they want.
The game is learning to have none for yourself.
"Look, I can now get you the pony, but I don't have a time machine to go back and give it to you when you were twelve."
Country saying: If you want to get even with a man, give his daughter a pony.
Good day to go for a long walk, Meade.
Normally they are not the type to take a cliched bubble bath (this is not the 1950s), but after both a Mysterious Stranger AND a Secret Admirer it might sound luxurious, even decadent.
Women like to indulge in Decadent once in a while. Then paint their toenails a fiery red.
Uh, yeah.
(Some) women are like terrorists.
This is good to know...although some of us figured out how to deal with this a long time ago.
It's the key to a successful marriage.
Does the wind move or does the flag move?
I don't know about women but I'd like to see articles and objective pronouns in sentences. ;)
Men, women, in my view there is no end to their wants, needs, desires, rights, entitlements.
Disagree.
White men, in particular, have taken pride in sacrificing their needs for others.
What's really driving a fool like Ritmo and his liberal counterparts? Why do they get so furious with me?
Because they believe that the role of white men is to sacrifice for the betterment of the victim classes... women, gays and blacks.
What's really driving a fool like Ritmo and his liberal counterparts? Why do they get so furious with me?
But you get a lot more furious with him than he gets with you!
Then, of course, there is the dread corollary:
"What if her doesn't get what her wants?"
"But you get a lot more furious with him than he gets with you!"
Ritmo?
Ain't nobody got time for that.
They want a man who KNOWS they are wearing the Secret Special Underwear even if they have not SEEN the Secret Special Underwear.
Mysterious Strangers possess this kind of Awareness.
But you get a lot more furious with him than he gets with you!
Yes, I'm trying to drive that stupidity out of him.
It's odd that Ritmo thinks of himself as a deep thinker. He's acting on PC indoctrination about the proper role of white men driven into him by the schools.
I can't think of anything to move him out of it except shock treatment.
Lesbians, on the other hand, want a Hot Dog Stand to call their own.
I just read on the Instapundit that they want their ideal man to be 8 inches taller than them.
I think that's a typo and has nothing to do with overall height.
Oso Negro said...
"Then, of course, there is the dread corollary:
"What if her doesn't get what her wants?""
Screen, and choose wisely, my friend.
When a woman has fiery red toenails and the Secret Special Underwear she knows she will get what she wants.
Ain't nobody got time for that.
Really? I feel for the dumb kid.
He's busy being the good little white boy, in the manner in which he was indoctrinated by the schools.
It's painful seeing the young white men playing this out.
In fact, I don't really get furious with the kid. I get furious with what has been done to him.
LOL ST!
See though, YOUR need and desire as a white man is to drive the stupidity out of your enemies.
I'm trying not to yield to that temptation.
All I Really Want
Am I the only one who sees a bit of dry humor in the answer? I'm not familiar with Freud's writing, did he show any wit?
He was pretty funny when I saw him hanging out in the San Dimas Galleria mall, but, admittedly, that was over twenty years ago.
"Some girls they’re so pure
Some girls so corrupt
Some girls give me children
I only made love to her once"
And, some girls just want you to buy your stuff through their Amazon portal.
Fiery red toenails, the Secret Special Underwear and a Bartender who pours her Martini JUST the way she likes. A Little Dirty.
Mysterious Strangers are Intrigued by that.
Driving the stupidity from your enemies is an immortality project doomed to failure.
Smilin' Jack,
Also known as the Neville Chamberlain method.
It's probably impossible for someone of German descent to see it (joke, snark, whatever,..)
I'm outta here - BLACK POWER!
See though, YOUR need and desire as a white man is to drive the stupidity out of your enemies.
No, it is to break through this superstructure of indoctrination.
Ritmo isn't stupid. You can see that in his command of language.
He's blinded by the standard PC indoctrination.
It took hours shopping to find just the right open-toed shoes that would go with the fiery red toenails.
Spiky heels, just this once.
Again, decadent.
"In fact, I don't really get furious with the kid. I get furious with what has been done to him."
He's a troll.
More interesting in provoking people than having a serious conversation.
Or, more to the point, not willing to have a serious conversation until he's all trolled out.
Life is short.
I can't save assholes from themselves, much less want to.
God gave him free will.
He chooses to be an asshole.
Ain't nobody got time for that.
Evolutionary psychology (which has a slightly better claim to the title of science than Freudian psychology) would claim that men and women want exactly the same thing: to pass on their genes to future generation. However, their optimal strategies for doing so are very different. The male strategy is simple: quantity. It's simple enough that even Freud could understand it - though he got it mixed up with a lot of silly literary fantasies. Women need to maximize the strength and security of a limited number of offspring. Complicated. Hard to do. Requires the cooperation of others.
Women want to be wanted for something besides what men want them for.
phx said...
"Driving the stupidity from your enemies is an immortality project doomed to failure."
You're right. And so says history and human nature too.
Ain't nobody got time for that.
Sometimes she will walk through the crowded bar to the restroom even though she has no need: she just wants to feel the eyes upon her as she passes, the furtive glances at her spiky heels and fiery toenails.
Chip S. said...
"Women want to be wanted for something besides what men want them for."
Right.
Smart men know this. So too do smart women.
Lots of women don't know this themselves.
Those that don't, make themselves and everyone around them miserable.
And only foolish men spend time with them.
Ain't nobody got time for that.
Yes, that's exactly why I've come to the conclusions I have. Life is far, far too short. It's over far too soon for Ritmo, ST, yourself and myself alike.
Perhaps the Secret Admirer is here, in this Upscale Bar, looking at her toes This Very Moment.
Women want to be wanted for something besides what men want them for.
This is what they want you to think.
In fact, women want to be wanted for precisely what men want them for.
Women flatter themselves with the notion that they are complicated.
Perhaps in the restroom she will re-apply her lipstick, the Special One that always seems to make her lips look just that much more fuller.
Let's take our drinks out on the balcony, The Secret Admirer will say. We will look at the Skyline, and know that the City is ours alone, tonight.
I've seen so many liberal, feminist indoctrinated men in Woodstock destroy their relationships and marriages by buying into this notion that women are complicated and want something other than what men what, particularly when it comes to sex.
The job of a man in a relationship or marriage with a woman is to help her out of her vanity about how complicated she is and get down to the simple stuff.
Some women don't need this treatment. White, liberal women generally do.
phx said...
But you [Shoutin' T] get a lot more furious with him [Ritmo]than he gets with you!
Ritmo? Taking him/her/it seriously is folly. I've had more cogent conversation with guys on Thorazine out at the VA Hospital. Bless his heart.
betamax3000 said...
"Perhaps the Secret Admirer is here, in this Upscale Bar, looking at her toes This Very Moment."
Unless she's in Hong Kong, at this time of day, she and everyone around her are raging alcoholics, and she's probably 40 lbs overweight and looks ridden hard and put away wet.
Stay away!
Your local health officer and physician agree.
Love is peace and wholeness. Romance is a game of attraction. But what women want the most is a man who tells them that he has time for them and that their needs and their thoughts are as important as his are.
This is why one woman is about all one man has time for.
"Yes, that's exactly why I've come to the conclusions I have. Life is far, far too short. It's over far too soon for Ritmo, ST, yourself and myself alike."
Concur.
And doubly so for the internet.
In fact, women want to be wanted for precisely what men want them for.
You need to read more carefully before shouting.
I didn't say "different from," I said "besides".
Of course, if you all you want is some skank who'll be grateful for attention, then by all means let her know that you're willing to fuck her.
Perhaps the Secret Admirer will have a Small Gift for her inside his coat pocket, even though there was no way he could have known that she would be here tonight, with her fiery red toenails and Secret Special underwear.
"The Perfect Gift" she will exclaim. "How could you know?"
"I am a Painter," he will reply. "I notice the things most people overlook. Perhaps one day You will visit my Loft, and I could show you my Paintings."
Having the Secret Admirer turn out to be a Painter with his own Loft -- who could've thought that this would all begin with a Bubble Bath.
Somehow, the Secret Admirer must've known.
Perhaps he has watched her from afar for weeks, months even.
Perhaps he already knows her Heart more than any man she has ever known.
"Would you like another Martini?" he will ask. "I know how you like them: a little dirty."
With two exceptions, I don't actually care what women want, but I will not stand in their way as they strive to get it. I figure they, like men, are entitled to whatever they can acquire through honest labor and fair trade, and not one damned bit more.
I also feel this way towards men.
Althouse says that one of the things women want is for the conversation to go on. We all do. It's the insistence on constant conversation that's the backbreaker for most men.
Women read way too much. Althouse reads way too much.
In particular, they read way too many novels... particularly bad novels.
This is a major reason why they feel that they are so emotionally complicated.
I just go through life with the assumption that women want me.
Etchings, betamax, show you my etchings is the hook.
Up in the Painter's Loft she was momentarily stunned by what was spread out before her: painting after painting of her. Just her.
A girl down the road when I was a kid who actually had her own horse didn't ride him much.
Then one painting in particular caught her eye. The canvas was exceptionally large, larger than a set of French doors.
It was her, in the very dress she was wearing now, complete with the newly-bought shoes with the spiky heels and the fresh fiery red toenails.
To be kissed. And often. And by someone who knows how.
As God as my witness, that's one way of not being hungry again.
But what kept her speechless was...
"The duct tape?" he asked, smiling.
And indeed there it was: a silver 'X' of Duct tape on the painting, crossed carefully over her mouth.
"I call this one 'You Do Not Need To Speak Because I Can Hear What You Would Say."
I also feel this way towards men.
NTTAWWT.
"But why am I in hand-cuffs?" she asked, struggling to comprehend.
"Because you do not need to touch me for me to know your Touch."
She stood silently, not sure of what to say.
"Would you like some mango pudding?" he asked. "It is Organic."
"I... don't like Mango." she tentatively replied.
"I already knew that. That is why I also have Strawberry. I know that is your Favorite."
What a woman wants is whatever she knows she can't have and is not going to get.
What a woman wants is whatever she knows she can't have and is not going to get.
Yes, women are children, aren't they?
"I have seen you eat Strawberry pudding, many many times. The soft red on the spoon complements the pale pink of your lips, and the silver of the spoon dances light upon your cheek."
"Do you like spanking?" he asked abruptly.
"I think.... I think you already know the answer to that question."
"Yes I do," the painter replied as he brought mango pudding to his lips.
But the demands will never end, for what woman wants, above all else, is to make demands. That's my aphorism.
The answer. of course, is whatever she doesn't have.
And, if it can be known, what will make man crazy.
Oso Negro said...
Then, of course, there is the dread corollary:
"What if her doesn't get what her wants?"
Old Jewish proverb, "You raise your voice, it does no good; it's time to raise your hand".
A good spanking, verbal or otherwise, is sometimes what woman wants.
They are, after all, like children that way.
Shouting Thomas said...
As Liz notes, it's odd that nobody asks the same question about men.
Because men come right out and say it.
There's an underlying assumption that women are minus something that they should rightfully be getting. I don't have a clue what that might be.
What drives this is chivalry. When women make goo-goo eyes at their daddy or lover, men feel compelled to make them happy with whatever their little hearts desire. If their little baby doesn't have what she wants, the fault must lie with those other, evil men who deny it to her.
Seen in several bugs Bunny cartoons where Yosemite Sam ends up carrying said bunny suitably costumed after said bunny says, "Carry me, fatha, Ah do believe Ah have the vapors".
Women want to be wanted for something besides what men want them for.
This is what they want you to think.
In fact, women want to be wanted for precisely what men want them for.
Women flatter themselves with the notion that they are complicated.
You're onto something there, compadre.
"Give women what they ask for and when the demands end, the answer will be known."
By this method, you can only know what she wanted a minute ago, but you'll still be trying to figure out what she's after now.
Yes, women are children, aren't they?
Same old game. Don't you ever tire of this game, phx?
The great liberal "bigotry" game!
Give women what they ask for and when the demands end, the answer will be known.
what a fool. that's the worst way to find out. give them the opposite of what they ask for. direction.
Same old game. Don't you ever tire of this game, phx?
The great liberal "bigotry" game!
What can you possibly mean ST? Some guy here wrote "What a woman wants is whatever she knows she can't have and is not going to get."
I responded with Yes, women are children, aren't they? Which was sarcasm. But entirely merited as anyone who actually thinks that about women, or thinks that women in general are somehow special that way, must obviously really believe that they are just like children.
I think many liberals, conservatives, moderates, extremists, even aliens would all pretty much agree with me that this guy thinks women in general are children.
Boy, are you sensitive for a conservative.
phx has been watching too many reruns of "Charmed" and "Dr Quinn, Medicine Woman".
women act like children all the time.
I swear one of the reasons the feminists hold men in such contempt (and they do), is because so many Lefties wussed out the first time they were called Male Chauvinist Pigs.
You don't have to slap her around to let her know you're not going to be pushed around, but you do have to be willing to say, "OK, that's IT", once in a while and make it stick.
The Blonde*, who grew up with 3 brothers who slugged her as much as each other, understands this.
*For those about to swoon, she hit back and was generally know as the mean one in the family.
When I first moved to NY, I had a roommate who wanted to be an actor. Not much success there. He did succeed with women, however. He claimed that he had an intuitive understanding of a woman's feelings and needs. Horseshit. He was extremely good looking. That was the secret of his success.....From Brad Pitt, women only want an encouraging smile, but others will perhaps find greater success with an encouraging smile and a diamond necklace that was made for the last Empress of Russia.
Women want coupons, and shopping.
...and why do I sense very few women posting here.
Women need to maximize the strength and security of a limited number of offspring. Complicated. Hard to do. Requires the cooperation of others.
From you evolutionary psychology (or whatever it is called) point of view, it isn't that simple, because women have two different evolutionary pressures on them. The one, as you suggest, is to give themselves and their children the best possible world. And, traditionally, that has meant pair bonding with a male, most often a beta, since most guys are betas. Monogamous is best, but polygamous is ok, as long as the guy has enough resources. (Of course, now all the Julias have Uncle Sugar Sam, along with Barack Obama, so they no longer need that guy).
But, the child rearing and support is only the second half of the equation. The first half is maximizing the genetic potential of their offspring, and that means mating with the alpha males.
What seems to complicate this is a couple of things. First and foremost, the beta males don't like the idea of the kids they are spending their scant resources raising not being their own, but rather, of some more alpha male. That leads to a lot of sneaking around, esp. on the part of the women.
But, maybe as importantly, apparently, for a lot of women, these needs shift in importance during the phases of their cycles, with their desire to be swept off their feet by alpha males typically peaking about the time of ovulation, and a need for security with the steady partner around menstruation.
Making things a bit worse is that acquiring the alpha genes comes with an inherent need to cheat. Note all the hints of danger and control all through BetaMax's seduction. The ultimate guilty secret is having your beta husband raise your alpha lover's child, thinking all along that it is his.
What women want in a man, as described by Andie MacDowell's character to Bill Murray in the film "Groundhog Day."
He: What are you looking for? Who's your perfect guy?
She: Well, first of all, he's too humble to know he's perfect.
He: That's me.
She: He's intelligent, supportive, funny.
He: Intelligent, supportive, funny, me, me, me.
She: He's romantic and courageous.
He: Me, also.
She: He's got a good body, but he doesn't have to look in the mirror every two minutes.
He: I have a great body, and sometimes I go months without looking.
She: He's kind, sensitive, and gentle. He's not afraid to cry in front of me.
He: This is a man we're taking about, right?
She: He likes animals, children, and he'll change poopy diapers.
He: Does he have to use the word "poopy?"
She: He plays an instrument, and he loves his mother.
He: I'm really close on this one. Really, really close.
Bruce Hayden said...
Women need to maximize the strength and security of a limited number of offspring. Complicated. Hard to do. Requires the cooperation of others.
From you evolutionary psychology (or whatever it is called) point of view, it isn't that simple, because women have two different evolutionary pressures on them. The one, as you suggest, is to give themselves and their children the best possible world. And, traditionally, that has meant pair bonding with a male, most often a beta, since most guys are betas. Monogamous is best, but polygamous is ok, as long as the guy has enough resources. (Of course, now all the Julias have Uncle Sugar Sam, along with Barack Obama, so they no longer need that guy).
But, the child rearing and support is only the second half of the equation. The first half is maximizing the genetic potential of their offspring, and that means mating with the alpha males.
The irony here is that the Lefties tried to portray Willie Whitewater as an alpha.
Alpha is in the eye of the beholder, one presumes.
My general observation is that people don't know what they want and thus keep changing their demands until they find out, if ever. This isn't necessarily a bad thing--how do you know what gives you satisfaction until you've tried it?
A big problem is that people confuse what they think they want and what they really want. They aren't honest with themselves and end up going in circles.
Taking this back to women, my ex-wife had no idea what she really wanted and thus sent me on a multi-decade fools errand of satisfying her whims to no avail.
What does a woman want?
"Toasted ice"
Old Arab saying.
Re what woman want: as I told my wife to put on my headstone: as Bob always said, "there will always be a nag" and " no good deed goes unpunished".
Women are becoming worse princesses than ever because of the Pill. It led to small family sizes of 1 or 2 children, who were treated as precious by their parents, and then they expect that charade to continue.
Before the Pill, there were large families, so each child was less precious. In an ag age, they were laborers and small adults and expected to contribute to the economic productivity and survival of the farm.
Now we are in an age of prosperity and media and small families. The princesses believe that the lifestyles of the rich and famous they see on tv is intended for them.
(I also contend that part of the prosperity is short term and self defeating--through limiting fertility. Then the Ponzi social benefits scheme collapses via demography--like we are seeing unfold now.)
The irony here is that the Lefties tried to portray Willie Whitewater as an alpha.
Alpha is in the eye of the beholder, one presumes.
I think that when he was a governor, and then President, he certainly was an alpha. What that traditionally meant was the guy who could bring home the most bacon, and, maybe the guy the other guys would obey. He had both of those going on. And, still does, due to his money and fame.
The reason that politicians, and esp. powerful ones, seem to get in trouble so often for sexual activities is that they have so many potential loins in which to deposit their semen. They are powerful, and that is a wonderful aphrodisiac for a lot of women.
What is interesting though is that the pick up culture involves guys learning to pretend to be alpha males. Good example of this sort of fake alpha behavior getting a guy (almost) laid can be seen with the used car salesman in "True Lies". The Governator, of course, was the true alpha, but hid it from his wife in the movie for 15 years, and did so so successfully, that she was attracted to the car salesman and his lies.
An attorney next door to me for awhile was really into the PU culture, and tried to introduce me. GF, used to real alphas, put a stop to that for me. Nevertheless, it does work, at least for those practicing it to have a lot of sexual conquests. Something like, "you're hot, but I've had a lot hotter, and probably will tonight - but if you want to go now, I will take the risk". Have to make the targets feel good about themselves, but not too good, so have to temper compliments with "negs" - slight negatives.
Point there is that at one time, it was easy for women to know who the alpha males were. They were bigger, stronger, had more people answering to them, and it was obvious in the community. But, now, with the depersonalization in our society, it is much easier to fake.
And yet, men love the princesses. They get enchanted by their games.
When there's a choice between a non-princess and a princess, they usually pick the princess.
Enchanting in the short run...but then trying to make the princess happy is a long-run losing proposition.
I am teaching my nephews this. One niece is non-princess, but the other one I fear will end up a princess. Her father (my brother) is doing his best to stop that. Time will tell if it works or not.
Freud didn't believe his female patients when they told him they were sexually abused. He loses the credibility to even pose the question.
Bruce Hayden said...
The irony here is that the Lefties tried to portray Willie Whitewater as an alpha.
Alpha is in the eye of the beholder, one presumes.
I think that when he was a governor, and then President, he certainly was an alpha. What that traditionally meant was the guy who could bring home the most bacon, and, maybe the guy the other guys would obey.
The fact that he never got 50% of the vote might rebut that idea.
A lot of Lefty groupie types and the trailer trash from which he sprung might have seen him that way, but more self-respecting women, like Kathleen Willey and Juanita Broaddrick, clearly did not.
"When there's a choice between a non-princess and a princess, they usually pick the princess."
"Love [of princesses] and work[ing to fulfill their princessly desires] are the cornerstones of our [...]manness."
- Freud
Women want men to figure out what they want to do, and then make them do it. If it turns out OK, then fine, she did it. If not, then it is his fault because he made her do it. Women want absolution from any negative outcomes. Everything bad is some man's fault.
Y'all should listen to Chip S. He knows the answer to the question, it's no secret.
So no mango pudding and spankings, Inga?
I figured I got it wrong.
No Betamax, but a bubble bath would be nice.
Maybe what modern women really want is a chick flick. They will pay lots of money for a good one.
Men have a role too. We have to appreciate the hurt feelings and pure emotions of the women characters in the Chick flick.
I think of it as the feminine version of of the men's need to watch WWF fake wrestling sagas or the UFC free for alls, in which the emotions shared are anger, revenge and murder.
Now if Downton Abbey could only have more fight scenes like last nights.
ken in sc said...
Women want absolution from any negative outcomes..
OMG! I thought you were talking about Obama there.
Bruce Hayden: That leads to a lot of sneaking around, esp. on the part of the women.
If you say so.
There's a very entertaining and informative post and thread on this subject over at the West Hunter blog. (Bloggers are the authors of The 10,000 Year Explosion. Good book.)
Making things a bit worse is that acquiring the alpha genes comes with an inherent need to cheat. Note all the hints of danger and control all through BetaMax's seduction. The ultimate guilty secret is having your beta husband raise your alpha lover's child, thinking all along that it is his.
Lol. On other hand, you may find your own perfervid imaginings on the subject of cuckoldry more entertaining than the facts. Each to his own taste.
phx: I responded with Yes, women are children, aren't they? Which was sarcasm.
It seems to me a law of life (at least where people choose their own mates), that Like marries (or shacks up with) Like. With a handful of exceptions, nice men I know have nice wives, assholes are married to assholes, crazies find crazies and so on. So that tacky TMI woman who's always complaining about how her husband is "just another child" she has to "manage", is likely being assiduously "managed" in turn by a husband or boyfriend who's bitching about her childish ways to other people. And they're both right.
I wouldn't take offense at it, phx. As long as they're "managing" each other, they're not out annoying the rest of us, so it's all cool.
As long as they're "managing" each other, they're not out annoying the rest of us, so it's all cool.
No it's not. A woman "managing" her husband is fine. A man "managing" his wife is being controlling and abusive.
Joe: A big problem is that people confuse what they think they want and what they really want. They aren't honest with themselves and end up going in circles.
It's not so much a matter of confusion about "what they really want", but of confusion about the relation between gratifying desire and happiness. We really do "want what we want", and can get a transient satisfaction out of getting what we want - but this has precious little to do with happiness. The sages in all cultures have always taught this; I wouldn't be surprised if neuroscience were elucidating this (non)connection.
This assumes women know what they want.
P.S. I am a woman.
campy: No it's not. A woman "managing" her husband is fine. A man "managing" his wife is being controlling and abusive.
Put down your axe, campy, or just take it where it belongs. My point had nothin' to do with the one you're itchin' to grind.
The answer is given by evolutionary psychology and can be simply stated: women want the men women want. However, as Goedel pointed out, once you introduce recursiveness, the consequences of even simple premises can become extremely difficult to understand. For example, peacock tails and Justin Bieber.
It's way too easy making generalizations about what women want. Easy to do the same for men.
Drill down. It gets harder.
"I want _____________"
I wouldn't take offense at it, phx. As long as they're "managing" each other, they're not out annoying the rest of us, so it's all cool.
Good advice.
What does woman want?
How old is she and how much does she weigh?
What do women want?
Anything just to get them to shut up.
The fact that he [Slick Willie] never got 50% of the vote might rebut that idea.
I don't think that has much to do with it. Plenty of women would willingly do Obama, and he doesn't come across to many of us as alpha. Many, if not most, of the males in Congress, both houses, are alphas, in their own right. They wield power, and a lot of women react to that positively. The President has all the indicies of power, from the private (747) jets, helicopters, huge house, lots of servants, and even his own band and tribute song. Everyone stands when comes in the room. All that makes him (even Obama) an alpha in the eyes of many women.
Lol. On other hand, you may find your own perfervid imaginings on the subject of cuckoldry more entertaining than the facts. Each to his own taste.
Not my own fervid imaginings, but rather, a number of studies over the years. First, a surprising amount of cuckoldry goes on, and esp. in situations where there is a lot of genetic homogeneity in a population, presumably where cheating will be least noticed. And, women do tend to cheat almost as much as men do (and not from personal experience, but from studies - the only time I was ever with a truly married woman, she had convinced me that she was almost divorced). Or, maybe more accurately, almost as many women cheat on their mates as men. They are just sneakier about it, presumably since traditionally the consequences are much higher if caught.
Secondly, and I think that I pointed this out above, studies have shown a distinct variation on who many women think is most attractive throughout their monthly cycles, with a decided preference for strong alpha attributes around ovulation, and the opposite, a preference for loyal and sensitive betas, at menstruation.
I will admit though to some of the jumping from the above studies to my theory that this is evolutionary, with a lot of women being torn between bearing the best children genetically (from the alpha male) and having a male around to support her children (by the beta male mate - since statistically most women are going mate with betas).
Bruce Hayden: Not my own fervid imaginings, but rather, a number of studies over the years. First, a surprising amount of cuckoldry goes on[...]
Bruce, did you bother to look at the link I gave? That "a surprising amount of cuckoldry goes on" is exactly the point in dispute. If we're going to do "dueling studies" you have to provide more than vague gestures toward some studies...out there somewhere.
Secondly, and I think that I pointed this out above, studies have shown a distinct variation on who many women think is most attractive throughout their monthly cycles...
Which tells you nothing about real rates of cuckoldry or even cheating. Read the article. If nothing else, Cochran is funny as hell.
Ok, read the article, and it asserts that in certain places in the developed world, cheating on husbands is currently, and hasn't been for awhile, all that common. And, one thing that is missed there is the very real possibility of cheating with a husband's male relatives.
But, what is happening today may say little about what has happened over the last several million years in this arena, and that is probably more relevant when it comes to tendencies and inclinations.
Going off a bit in a different direction, most physical characteristics and the like can be traced to some evolutionary advantage. Two, in particular, are of interest here. One is relative testicle size, and the other is sexual dimorphism, which is the difference in size between males and females.
Promiscuous species tend to have relatively large testicles, while fully monogamous or polygamous ones have small ones. And, harem type species tend to have a lot more sexual dimorphism than those where harems are not seen.
The interesting thing about humans is that we are between chimps and gorillas in both characteristics. Relatively large testicles than gorillas, but smaller than chimps, while more sexual dimorphism than chimps, and less than gorillas.
Harem species tend to have relatively much smaller testicles because the competition for offspring is done based on size and monopolization of the harem. But with promiscuous species, the competition is much more about have the most sperm and the most effective/motile/fast sperm. The basic difference when it comes to testicle size is how males have competing sperm at one time in a single female estrus cycle.
And, I would suggest that this is more evidence that the claimed 2% of so rate of cheating (or cuckoldry) doesn't square with reality. I would find 20% credible, though I remember seeing 30-35% more commonly. But, I doubt that many here truly believe that 2% has truly been the actual rate of cuckoldry over the generations, at least not until just recently with the easy availability of genetic testing. Too much of our social and religious mores are based on preventing this, too much common culture, including what we see on TV and movies revolve around it, and I think that we all know too many people who have participated in such over our lifetimes.
Ok, read the article...
But you don't seem to have read it or the discussion following very carefully, since you simply repeat objections and speculations that get dealt with in both.
And, I would suggest that this is more evidence that the claimed 2% of so rate of cheating (or cuckoldry) doesn't square with reality. I would find 20% credible, though I remember seeing 30-35% more commonly.
As the author testily pointed out in a related thread to a commenter who persisted in the tack your taking here, "As for pretending that some dipshit ev psych argument about what the rate ought to be is evidence of what it actually is, shit, my dog is smarter than that."
That "30-35%" that you "remember seeing" is a basically an urban legend. It appears to have originated in a single, one-site study of misattributed paternity based on a sample involving men who had requested testing because they had good reason to be suspicious. Obviously, not a random sample (and even among those, the majority of children were not cuckoo's eggs). As these things tend to do, this stuff gets passed on and distorted both by normal sloppy thinking and axe-grinders, and becomes "what everybody knows".
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