It's a bar in Madison, where they won't have hip-hop shows anymore because there was a fight outside the other night and a gun was fired. The bar's owner, Darwin Sampson says: “It is truly unfortunate that I cannot host an entire genre of music and artists because of the idiocy of a couple people and the ineptitude of the security company that evening.”
What's the frequency?
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Whud it b?
I'm not sure frequency is the only issue.
When you feature a music genre that promotes violence for PR purposes, you're playing with fire.
Gee, to which group do these stupid people belong?
Obviously this wouldn't have happened if there were a law banning all guns since there's no way to obtain guns illegally.
Recently there was a cast party for "Mob Wives" at a bowling alley in New York City.
There was a big controversy as most of the "Hip Hop Fans" were not allowed inside even though they were invited guests.
You see the venue had a dress code. No obvious bling. No basecaps or do-rags. Oh and you couldn't wear a clock around your neck.
Many bars and nightclubs have the same rules. They have been doing this for years.
Wisconsin is finally catching up to the rest of the country.
Guns. Hip-Hop. Violence. Whatever could the connection be?
I think you should quote Gomer Pyle with a post like this.
There are some nasty Shelley v. Kraemer hypos lurking there.
Liability issues to dead invitees when that type band attracted killers before would be easily won. The property Owner has notice as evidenced by his own lease provision and then the latest incident.
If a fight erupts inside or outside the case is low hanging fruit. And the damages for a couple of dead men is more than the Insurance will cover.
The Rap culture includes armed body guards and a "whose is longer" public contest in which killing is how the score is kept. Ask Ray Lewis.
I like the Dan Rather reference
Can I say white guy?
If the gun had been bought by a white guy,and then stolen, and the law was in place to make it a crime not to report it, then it would be an 'illegal' gun.
Then, it's the gun, not the people shooting.
Case closed.
Did the shooter have a carry permit?
Did anyone bother to ask Kenneth?
“What happened Sunday night is an isolated incident and I think it is unfortunate that hip-hop artists and its fans will have to suffer the consequences for the actions of a few,”
The Story of Society.
Okay, that comment I deleted was a little too snarky even for me.
If I were a landlord, I'd ban HipHop shows from my establishments for precisely the reason traditionalguy notes. There's a history, it's predictable that it'll happen. Not if, when.
Wait, He doesn't blame the music, but the security and a couple people, yet it's the music he changes.
Yea, a lot of this new logic going around.
We need to have a national conversation about hip-hop control.
From the police report:
Suspect(s) Two black males in their 20's.
So the new policy is people can use the n-word at Althouse comments?
My guess would be that if this were Chicago, one of them would have been dead. Hip hoppers are better shots in the Windy City.
The owner could have deflected charges of racism by blaming misogyny.
If we could just get that 10% of our people rounded up, we could accomplish a lot.
No more locks on your doors, passwords, keys, banks, guns, cops, divorce (hell, we wouldn't even need marriage), but most glorious of all is that we wouldn't need lawyers. You guys could all sit and sip margaritas, because there would be so much excess productivity by the rest of us that we would just pay you to stay out of our shit.
Some hip hop is pretty good, actually. (I blame a former girl friend for introducing it to me.) I especially enjoy turning it up as I drop my teenage daughter off at school. One of my jobs as a father is to embarrass my daughters whenever possible. It's very easy to do.
Hip hop's testosterone boost isn't bad either. Check out the lyrics to Lil Wayne's Every Girl. Even I won't play that in front of the High School. I may be a dick, but I am not a total dick.
The Amish are running wild in Madison again?
This isn't news worthy story. It's on the same plane as most strippers have substance abuse problems, stretch marks and use men.
"Verveer said there has been a provision in The Frequency’s lease since the venue opened in 2008 banning hip-hop acts due to instances of violence during the previous owner’s tenancy but the landlord, Larry Lichte, has not enforced it until now."
They are also prohibited from serving watermelon, collard greens, black eyed peas, ham hock and chitlins. Gospel singing by permission only. White doo-wop groups are allowed and black doo-wop if all musicians are over age 70. (That's most of them.)
And no people with two capital letters in their first name.
It's for the children.
"Suspect(s) Two black males in their 20's."
That's just the lorem ipsum (aka Ritmo) that's on the form and when they don't fill it in, so that's what gets reported with lazy cops. My theory anyway.
I'd studied your cartoons, radio, music, TV, movies, magazines
Richard said, "Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy"
A smile like the cartoon, tooth for a tooth
You said that irony was the shackles of youth
You wore a shirt of violent green, uh-huh
I never understood the frequency, uh-huh
phx said...
"So the new policy is people can use the n-word at Althouse comments?"
We're talking Hip Hop here, ever listen to or read the lyrics?
So the new policy is people can use the n-word at Althouse comments? - phx
It's "one post with the n-word for every post by some ersatz outraged liberal expressing outrageous outrage over the use of the n-word by anyone other than a little-n native American African-American."
So the new policy is people can use the n-word at Althouse comments?
I don't think it's ever been the policy that you can't use that word, or any other. It's just that lately, one particular asshole typing from his mother's basement has been trying to impress himself with shocking us all.
Please take away my right to listen to hip hop... do more to help us protect ourselves because what’s most likely to wake me in the early hours isn’t a man’s body slamming at my door but a hip hop session, that raven, tapping, rapping, banging for reefer. I have a better chance of surviving if I never have the option of being able to pull the zipper.
Fucking Canadians
Some hip hop is pretty good, actually.
Agreed. The son likes a lot of it, so when we're out driving, he's listening to 93.1 The daughter, in contrast, is all classic soft rock.
When violence breaks out at hip-hop clubs, as when various pit-bull breeds maul 3 year olds and postal carriers, it is always blamed on people behaving badly instead of the root cause.
While there are nice pit bulls the breeds are designed for agression.
While it is 'just music' hip-hop glorifies violence.
So, what were the hip hoppers arguing about? Monte Ball?
"Hip-hop" is also a great name for this musical genre. It's much better than the name "rap." It rolls off the tongue nicely -- better maybe than "rock and roll."
There's an on-going migration of hip-hop fans from Chicago to Madison.
You can Rap without Hip-Hop, but I don't know if you can Hip-Hop without a little Rap. I think you can, but I can't think of an example. Where is Crack Emcee when you really need him?
@edutcher/
Yeah, but you also had other early female rappers/groups like MC Lyte "Roughneck" whose "I want a roughneck" lyrics lionized EXACTLY the wrong kind of people& lifestyles--and this latter group comprised the attitude of vast majority of the hip-hop crowd even at its earliest stages..
I know what you mean, but the ones I mentioned impressed me.
I don't claim to be a maven on the subject.
PS: And just not the lyrics, of course. Check out the video of "Roughneck" which played on MTV. The object of the female desires ain't exactly a brooks-brothers suit, bow-tie wearing Harvard professor or your local Bank President--let alone your local black HS football coach..
Patrick said...
So the new policy is people can use the n-word at Althouse comments?
I don't think it's ever been the policy that you can't use that word, or any other. It's just that lately, one particular asshole typing from his mother's basement has been trying to impress himself with shocking us all.
What's the over/under odds on him being a Moby?
Hip-Hop suffers from the same thing the rest of the culture does: the need to one-up the outrage the last guy did.
The only thing that outrages me anymore are lies, cruelty, and idiots with power.
And one more thing: I'm outraged by is the the racism of this Superbowl ad:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/volkswagen-super-bowl-ad-racist_n_2574809.html
In what other genre of music does one hear about their posses assaulting each other? Seriously.
Grandmaster Flash, the first rap I ever heard, gave a picture of bleak inner city life without glorifying it. Since then, it's mostly been down hill. I have to be in a certain, very rare mood to enjoy rap or hip hop, and then only very particular bits.
Althouse does love her 'edgy modes expression.'
Theres more to this story than meets the eye.
If the owner was making money doing this type of event he would certainly be reluctant to end them because of an "isolated incident".
More than likely after making hip-hop events a regular feature he's discovered how little money he makes vs. the hassle it takes to put on the event. And he has employees to think about, could be they don't like being disrespected by the clientele.
The shooting gives him a convenient way to shut it down without looking racist .
What's the over/under odds on him being a Moby?
Claims not to be, and has a pretty vile website to go along with his shtick. If he is, he's pretty persistent. I'd still say he's a twenty something with mommy issues who has no realistic hope oh moving out of his parents' house anytime soon.
Grandmaster Flash, the first rap I ever heard, gave a picture of bleak inner city life without glorifying it. Since then, it's mostly been down hill. I have to be in a certain, very rare mood to enjoy rap or hip hop, and then only very particular bits.
Hip hop that I enjoy:
De La Soul
Kid Cudi
Kanye West*
Snoop Lion
Snoop Dog (some of the earlier, very California stuff)
Eminem
Rick Ross (he's a big gangster who glorifies the ugly stuff, but he's good at it)
Arrested Development
Frank Ocean
Public Enemy (early stuff)
Whodini
Sugar Hill Gang
KRS-One
And I would go further to say that the "roughneck" image (writ large) is THE overriding signature culture for the ENTIRE nation's youth of today--both black AND white. Think back to movies of the 30s/40s which depicted Hollywood stars on college campii as lettermen wearing letter sweaters or fraternity men as objects of desire. Or even up into the mid sixties when son David Nelson and his USC fraternity brothers were a big feature of the Ozzie & Harriet TV series and depicted in a positive light as a good and desirable part of the American scene. To expect fraternities to be depicted in a positive light in movies and on TV and college fraternity men as desirable cultural mainstays whose lives one should/might emulate in today's sociocultural stew is to think the unthinkable..
Inviting the Taliban to the party is NOT a good idea.
Does Wisconsin have strict host liability law(s)?
In Michigan, last time I checked, the bar is considered liable for incidents occurring on property, or elsewhere, if attributable to the drinking at the bar. Matter of fact these laws can be applied to homeowners who throw parties...or whose kids throw parties in their homes, with parents present or absent.
Hip-Hop and Rap are connected to violence? Whoa...oh, wait ... check out Biggie Smalls and Tupac. They still be dead?
Finally...@Levi Starks has a good point and likely a more complete explanation of the whole affair.
Or even up into the mid sixties when son David Nelson and his USC fraternity brothers were a big feature of the Ozzie & Harriet TV series and depicted in a positive light as a good and desirable part of the American scene.
"Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?"
"Whaddya got?"
1953.
This can be taken too far. I applaud and defend the bar owner for doing what he had to in order to keep bad things from happening, but it's a mistake to draw some supposedly larger lesson about hip hop itself inducing violence from a single situation. It runs the very real mistake of confusing anecdote for data. I'd want real correlation of violence and styles of music played in bars before I started to blame one genre for any problem. The reality is that problems like this are more likely due to dumbasses being dumbasses than anything else. And you could get epic level dumbassery with damn near any music style not played by Liberace. As long as alcohol and younger people are in the mix, you could be playing a damn flugelhorn and run the risk of fights breaking out.
So, sure, that particular bar owner had to ban that specific genre of music because his crowd base happened to have a bunch of fight prone idiots that gravitated to hip hop night. But that's not the same as saying there's some universal problem with the genre. If that were so, we'd see this happen everywhere, and at higher rates than other bars playing other styles. And frankly, I've not seen any evidence suggesting this.
Again: The real problem is a group of idiots being idiotic. They just happened to be hip hop fans in this specific case. They could be country fans in some other place, metal fans in yet another. The real correlation is age, alcohol, and lack of inhibition. I wouldn't concentrate on the music aspect of the story beyond the fact that it happened to apply there, in that one bar.
What was that asterisk next to Kanye West for?
Oh yeah, he's clearly a hip-hop artist with an affinity for music ... all kinds of music.
He's also a glorious a-hole who I find very entertaining, especially when sending up the absurd, stuck-up pop music scene.
I used to love Hip-Hop when it described improvisational "modern jazz".
Apparently modern Hip-Hop is less inspiring - or is negatively inspirational.
It does say something when violence tends to follow a certain genre of music. If the listeners aren't gunning each other down the performers are. Funny you don't see this with rock, country or heavy metal.
"So the new policy is people can use the n-word at Althouse comments?"
He's a Moby. Perhaps he's you.
He's a Moby. Perhaps he's you.
Learn to accept responsibilty, will ya? It's a conservative thang.
Funny you don't see this with rock, country or heavy metal.
You're right, country music needs more fisticuffs and donnybrooks!
"So the new policy is people can use the n-word at Althouse comments?"
No, and I deleted the comment your question refers to.
I am not able to see everything and respond to everything. These are not moderated comments.
I like the stuff I've heard from Kanye - musically he's brilliant. The Beatles of hip hop
I wouldn't go that far. He has some lyrical issues he needs to work on.
Sorry EMD. You caint tell me nuthin!
Althouse also likes the conservative value of passing responsibility on to the other guy.
Why would a moby concede he's a moby? If he's not a moby, he's a troll.
Sorry to give him this much attention.
Please refrain from talking about him.
EMD said...
What was that asterisk next to Kanye West for?
He is banging Kim Kardashian which officially makes him a douchebag.
See Kris Humprhries, Bruce Jenner, Lamar Odom and Reggie Bush.
Althouse also likes the conservative value of passing responsibility on to the other guy.
Liberals invented the blame game, dude.
He is banging Kim Kardashian which officially makes him a douchebag.
Did I say he wasn't a douchebag?
Liberals invented the blame game, dude.
As I was saying about accepting responsibility...
Gotta say, as an expat of Madison, it is a special kind of wonderful to see things like this or the general degradation of the SW side shove certain issues right in the grille of that community. I lived there when this kinda shit happened elsewhere, far away.
As I was saying about accepting responsibility...
As I was saying about giving credit ...
The big story at the Superbowl are unfortunate comments by Chris Culliver and Joe Flaco. It is all the sports stations can talk about.
In the meantime Ray Lewis is celebrated and canonized. Not criticized in the least for being a low life scumbag who hangs out with criminals who murder people. Dan Marino is outed as having a baby out of wedlock in violating his marriage vows and disgracing his family.
But Ray and Dan get the Hillary Clinton pass on their behavior.
The only thing the sports guys can do is beat up on the politically incorrect words of a couple of knucklehead athletes. Nonstop condemnation and abuse. Nary a word about actions that at one time would have been condemned in a decent society.
Remember it is words that are the problem. Not actions. Let's make a joke about murderous shithead criminals shooting up a bar. The wrong words are what you should get upset about.
Makes a lot of sense.
As I was saying about giving credit ...
But you are right. Any thinking, rational, nonemotive human being, when asked to consider "Where did blaming the other guy come from?" would have to ineluctably arrive at the conclusion - it's the liberals fault.
Fairness, critical thinking, objective disinterested evaluation of the facts, these are conservative values.
He is banging Kim Kardashian which officially makes him a douchebag.
NO, it makes him just another person used by the Kardashians as they try to famewhore their way to millions.
Free speech is only protected when you protect the speech of the most objectionable among us.
Otherwise you put a douche in jail for putting a video on Youtube.
"As I was saying about accepting responsibility..." - phx
"As I was saying about giving credit ... " - EMD
Well, there is always blame to go around when someone does something wrong.
Conservatives blame the malefactor, regardles of who he is.
Liberals blame the conservative(s), without regard to the malefactor's politics.
Women blame anyone but themselves, even if they are the malefactor.
How was the security company inept? If someone's gonna bust a cap, a cap will be busted.
Honestly...the history is pretty damned clear on this. What other genre has constant issues like this? What other genre has it's artists dying violently, sometimes at the hands of other of the genre's artists or their "peeps"?
There really isn't any other parallel unless you include Russian prison folk music and I'm not sure how many RPFM artists are playing gigs in Wisconsin these days.
Well look on the good side Madman.
At least Kanye can look forward to getting a Valtrex commerical at next years Super Bowl.
Free speech is only protected when you protect the speech of the most objectionable among us.
I agree with that. It's never appropriate for the government to act as a censor.
Conservatives blame the malefactor, regardles of who he is.
I don't believe you actually read the thread.
"It's never appropriate for the government to act as a censor."
I bet you have a very loose definition of "the government acting as a censor."
"I don't believe you actually read the thread.
I bet you don't understand what I wrote.
I bet you have a very loose definition of "the government acting as a censor."
Why Nomennovum, whatever do you mean?
What do you think, phx?
I bet you don't understand what I wrote.
I understand that you wealthy college boys don't have the education enough to admit when you're wrong.
I've been countin' money my whole life.
If only the clubs and fashions stayed true to how they were in the first rap video MTV aired.
Dapper dancing in white tuxes.
There's been similar incidents with violence at hip-hop shows in our college town.
People try to cry racism, but honestly, would violence break out at a jazz, blues, or black gospel show?
It's not a race thing, it's a thug thing.
I think he is most likely exactly what he claims to be. Free speech is hard.
But it's a blog, essentially a front porch discussion, and you can kick people out for disrespecting your guests. There is no point he is trying to make that he couldn't make even better if he did it respectfully. Maybe he just doesn't have the skill for that.
So, do you want me to kick his ass? I'll be careful not mess up the flower bed.
Kevin knows.
The Shadow knows....
Wait a minute....
That's racist....
Nevermind.
What's the frequency, Kenneth?
Althouse also likes the conservative value of passing responsibility on to the other guy.
Let's play out this guilt by association game. Is Althouse responsible for that lunatic because this is her blog? Are you responsible because you read and comment on this blog; or do you somehow get a pass that other commenters here don't ?
I know people who call themselves Republican and/or conservative, and none of them sound like that asshole. I would never lump them in with him/her/it; it says something about people like you who do.
phx said...
He's a Moby. Perhaps he's you.
Learn to accept responsibilty, will ya? It's a conservative thang.
We'll have to remember that phx believes those on one half of the political spectrum are responsible for statements uttered by anyone claimed to be on the same half - even if it means someone has to take "responsibility" for ideas he criticizes.
So under this philosophy phx is responsible for the rantings of every KosKid comment. Good to know.
If only the clubs and fashions stayed true to how they were in the first rap video MTV aired.
Remember Yo MTV Raps? Good times.
There's been similar incidents with violence at hip-hop shows in our college town. People try to cry racism, but honestly, would violence break out at a jazz, blues, or black gospel show? It's not a race thing, it's a thug thing.
This.
Althouse also likes the conservative value of passing responsibility on to the other guy.
Can we blame the guy who actually said what you objected to? That’s all anybody is doing.
What I want to kknow is, what is the hip-hop community going to do about this?
Remember, the "c" in rap is silent.
So under this philosophy phx is responsible for the rantings of every KosKid comment. Good to know.
You aren't a good thinker, Marshal. Under MY philosophy, if a ranting, offensive lefty comes in and I say "A Moby no doubt, he must really be a conservative trying to undermine the movement" - THEN my intergrity would be up for challenge.
The one pattern I see in you is that you don't do very well with analogies. I understand, that's a thinking skill.
Doesn't anyone want to ban hip-hop just because it sucks?
phx said...
The one pattern I see in you is that you don't do very well with analogies.
The pattern everyone else sees is your refusing to appply to the left the standards you use to attack the right.
Well actually there are two: your pattern of changing the subject hoping people won't notice.
The pattern everyone else sees is your refusing to appply to the left the standards you use to attack the right.
And you have a tendency to speak for other people in a bid to bolster the power of your strained efforts.
Now when you actually provide some positive evidence that I apply a set of standards to one side and not to the other, I'm sure "everyone" will applaud you. I myself will offer a hearty well done.
Bagoh, but you'll get shit on your shoes. Then you might need a bath too.
Under MY philosophy, if a ranting, offensive lefty comes in and I say "A Moby no doubt, he must really be a conservative trying to undermine the movement" - THEN my intergrity would be up for challenge.
The term "moby" is named after the musician Moby who suggested that liberals engage in this activity on conservative sites. It should not be a surprise that conservatives are suspicious.
More to the point, you said : Learn to accept responsibilty, will ya? It's a conservative thang.
Responsibility for what? The existence of haters, racists & bigots? I live in the NE. There are more "liberal" bigots up here than conservatives, just in sheer numbers. Are conservatives responsible for them as well?
phx
Don't you know Marshal's rules yet? You can't put forward any opinions on anything unless you first condemn someone on the left. Just like he never does.
"Don't you know Marshal's rules yet? You can't put forward any opinions on anything unless you first condemn someone on the left. Just like he never does."
1/31/13, 2:23 PM
Amen brothas!
garage
heh. what's so funny is his certainty that he's got a good argument when he does this.
phx said...
Now when you actually provide some positive evidence that I apply a set of standards to one side and not to the other, I'm sure "everyone" will applaud you.
All you have to do is show us one comment criticizing lefties whining about Fox for victim-posing. Can you do that? No? Ten thousand whines about Fox News pass and not one criticism? Can you show us one criticism of a leftist overreaching in their crtitcisms of the right? Not one?
I note your term "positive" evidence. Interesting point, although perhaps more revealing than you intended. You seem to be aware you have literally never addressed the left in any comment on any topic. Could that be random chance? The statistics are fantastic, so it must have been a conscious decision.
Why? Would someone interested in an honest evaluation of policy take that position? Is this how rational people discuss policy? Clearly not. It's the position of a propagandist.
All you have to do is show us one comment criticizing lefties whining about Fox for victim-posing. Can you do that? No? Ten thousand whines about Fox News pass and not one criticism? Can you show us one criticism of a leftist overreaching in their crtitcisms of the right? Not one?
Marshal you don't understand critical thinking or argumentation at all. It's not incumbent on me in the least to prove or submit evidence that I'm not a hypocrite. It's up to YOU, the person making the allegation, to submit evidence that I am. All you seem to be doing is saying I won't submit evidence that I AM ethical, so therefore I must be unethical.
Marshal, is this really a conservative value?
As soon as you submit evidence that I'm being hypocritical or unethical or anything else I'll address it squarely and give you my honest defense, disagreement, or admit that you have a point. Until then, you got nothing but your own foolish ideas of how argumentation works.
Read a book, Marshal.
I commented a while back about Marshal, he sets up a straw man about you, then he expects YOU to defend his straw man.
That seems exactly right Inga. He seems to believe that there's an intellectual pedigree for that kind of nonsense. :D
phx said...
Marshal you don't understand critical thinking or argumentation at all.
Here's the thing phx: you're the third grader who thinks "proof" can only mean being caught red handed. You've made hundreds, maybe thousands, of comments and every one has these features in common. Every single one. It's perfectly reasonable to point this out. It's not credible to claim this number of comments including these features is simply random. It was a choice.
It's this choice that proves you're not here for honest debate.
Inga said...
I commented a while back about Marshal, he sets up a straw man about you, then he expects YOU to defend his straw man.
Poor Inga, reduced to jumping on the bandwagon.
Have you identified that tax credit for offshoring jobs yet? Or explained why you repeated the lie that the Romney's took a 77k tax credit? Why don't you explain how these are strawmen?
Why don't you explain again why we need to vote for Obama so the religious right doesn't force most women into sexual slavery and the rest into second class status?
LOL Marshal. Make a hundred million BAJILLION comments!
You haven't given any evidence in the least that I'm a hypocrite.
When you do, I'll be happy to respond.
Damn, you would think after all my comments you would have SOME positive evidence that indicates I really am a hypocrite!
You know, something other than your speculation.
This is like Asperger's or compulsive masturbation to you, isn't it?
@Baron Zemo - What?? Marino is straight??
The bar owner did the right thing. It's change the format or lose his liquor license, something that was no doubt very difficult to obtain.
Violent activities inside and outside of hip-hop themed bars in Milwaukee has resulted in closing most of them. Thug music attracts thugs. No more complicated than that.
phx said...
You haven't given any evidence in the least that I'm a hypocrite.
I see you don't know the difference between evidence and mathematical proof.
Either way, I have proven you aren't here for honest debate. Debate requires taking a position and defending it as well as attacking opposing positions. So your pride that you've never taken one tells everyone what they need to know.
(kevin soy is more sensible than all of us; he's trying to make some money. What the hell am I doing here?)
Amen brothas!
You sometimes remind me of the little dog in the cartoons who stirs up trouble and then calls on his friend the bulldog for protection. Remember that one?
see you don't know the difference between evidence and mathematical proof.
I see you don't know the difference between an inductive and a deductive argument.
Either way, I have proven you aren't here for honest debate. Debate requires taking a position and defending it as well as attacking opposing positions. So your pride that you've never taken one tells everyone what they need to know.
Guilty as charged! Now will you go away?
phx said...
I see you don't know the difference between an inductive and a deductive argument.
Hmmm. I must have missed the rule we had to state which we were using. But I think it's great you conclude use of one means you don't know the difference between them. The inability to think logically explains your leftism.
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