Look, I think there's this false argument that's been advanced by the left that conservatism and Republicans are anti-immigrant and anti-immigration. And we're not. Never have been.Much more at the link. (It's an interview conducted by Rush Limbaugh.) You see what Rubio is saying: The President and the congressional Democrats, with the help of the media, have the power to forefront this issue and to make it work powerfully for their political benefit. If the Republicans hang back, they will get portrayed as villains. So it was necessary for Rubio to step forward and be the face of the Republican Party to give it some chance at looking at least somewhat good as this issue plays out.
On the contrary, we are pro-legal immigration. And we recognize that our legal immigration system needs to be reformed. We also recognize, because conservatism's always been about common sense, that we do have an existing problem that needs to be dealt with in the best way possible. Now, it was dealt with in 1986 in a way that was counterproductive. Well-intentioned, but counterproductive because, A, they granted a blanket amnesty to three million people at the time, or that was the estimate, and, B, they didn't do any of the enforcement mechanisms. And so our point is if we're gonna deal with this, let's deal with it once and for all and in a way that this never, ever, happens again....
In the absence of stepping forward with our own principles, the left and the president will tell people what we stand for, and it's not necessarily gonna be true.
३० जानेवारी, २०१३
Rubio: "The president clearly outlined that he was gonna push on [immigration], the media was gonna focus on this..."
"... the Senate Democrats were gonna push on this issue, and I thought it was critically important that we outline the principles of what reform is about."
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I heard about 5 minutes this on Rush as I drove to the office yesterday.
It surprised me that Rush let Rubio speak such wisdom to Rush's audience.
Usually Rush likes to take a very strong side and trash the moderates. Rush usually meets his audience's expectations.
Is something new happening?
Republicans don't have to do (or not do) anything to be portrayed as villains.
Eg tradguy's first bitchy comment.
So why bother?
the 'existing problem' is the proximity of mexico.
Look, "framing the narrative" (i.e., "spin" to use an older term) is all-important and leftists are past-masters of it. Those on the right ignore this fact at their peril, so in that sense, Rubio is right insofar as he goes. The only danger in doing so is if the Elephants morph this process into preemptively negotiating with themselves and thus making actual policy concessions to the other side in advance of engaging in actual meaningful legislative bargaining.
Build the F***ing fence!
Republicans don't have to do (or not do) anything to be portrayed as villains.
Eg tradguy's first bitchy comment.
So why bother?
That's crybaby stuff. And IMO one of the reasons the GOP is having a hard time getting traction right now. There's a lot of it going on.
Of course it is necessary. The left knows it and will load this up with so many pet projects that the law will look like an overcrowded bus in Mexico City during a burrito sale at rush hour.
Gays, abortion, guns, climate change, union rights, health care, economic justice, etc. etc. will all be addressed and appeased because the left thinks the right has to agree to something. Gays was the trial balloon. Watch for more balloons in the next few weeks. The left wants to know which issues to poison the bill with so R's cannot vote for it.
But, the important and therefore "smart" thing to understand is not who gets credit, but that it must be done right. On this point, the Democrats and the Republicans are diametrically opposed, because the Democrats believe they benefit from it being done wrong.
The left knows it and will load this up with so many pet projects that the law will look like an overcrowded bus in Mexico City during a burrito sale at rush hour.
But of course "I think there's this false argument that's been advanced by the left that conservatism and Republicans are anti-immigrant and anti-immigration."
Gee I wonder where we got that idea!
So Rubio sounds sincere, and genuinely determined to end illegal immigration with a meaningful enforcement trigger, and to withhold government benefits from these amnestied people. But then why would he agree to a framework that monitors sea and air crossings and exits, but explicitly not land crossings? And reports are that the final determination that the trigger mechanism has been reached is made by a presidential appointee. And Dems are already saying that they won't really implement e-verify. Is Rubio naive or being snookered by the Dems?
"The hill has been taken. Why run back and die on it?"
phx:
You're sort of right, by which I mean, it could be crybaby stuff. I didn't mean it thattaway though, I was going a little more for sarcastic. I guess my expression and shoulder shrug combination was a little hard to see since I'm typing in a dark room.
None of which means that what I said isn't actually true. The media, being fully invested in St. Barry will do whatever they have to do. There's a way to rise above it and take back the narrative, but I confess--I don't know it. That's not my strong suit. I solve problems by going straight ahead through, not around them. And I break stuff.
LOL
Attack the straight white christian males by any means necessary. Even if it means importing brown-skimmed people who will slaughter gays and blacks en masse.
Watching the carnage in the next 50 years is gonna be fun and sweetly poetic.
I guess it's more important to be pro-immigration than it is to avoid becoming a human ant heap asian state.
"Is something new happening?"
You heard it differently than before, because it has always been.
Despite all the extraneous bullshit, the thing that gets conservatives riled about illegal immigration more than anything is the law breaking, the cheating, the unfairness to citizens and legal immigrants. If you can frame a policy that does not give the cheaters an advantage for cheating, most conservatives can get on board. We want immigrants, we love the very idea of it. It's the sneaking to the front of the line that ruins it for everyone.
"Gee I wonder where we got that idea!"
The same place you did. They needed the message, so it was manufactured.
Rubio is too young and talks too much and too fast.
It's good to see that clean, articulate Almost-Brown-Americans have their uses.
We want immigrants...
Not me. When is enough? A country of 400 million? 500 million? Pro-immigration ends in an ant heap nation like asia.
The best solution is to increase legal immigration and set common sense restrictions unalterable by the activist apparatchiks who will immediately try to undermine them. We need full background checks (paid for by immigrants) and probationary periods, and illigal aliens should not be eligible. And further we should enforce whatever qualifications we like: no criminal or terrorism history of course, or anti-American rhetoric [we lead the world in anti-Americanism, no need to import more], education requirements, skillset or ability to support yourself (and family).
Of course the left will fight these because they're only interested in importing Democratic voters. But a trade for better legal immigration is a good one.
No, freder, not anti-immigrant. Immigration is what made this country. We don't do wholesale deportation, so that is not a solution. Never have and never will.
Anti illegal immigration is accurate. And pro-practical solution without the lard.
And anti-izquierista.
Can we have an "assess the level of bullshit" poll on every post that includes a quote from a politician?
I read a study on the validity of "framing" of issues to alter public policy in the APSR (Amer Poli-Sci Review) years ago and one example used was a study of immigration that concluded that when test polls framed it as a "national security" border-control issue polls of the general public gave the nod to the Elephants, but if framed as a "human rights" issue the Donkeys win hands down..
My pet requirement: every applicant must speak English with a fair degree of competence to be eligible. If you can't, then it's not much of a hardship to go back home, is it?
Also, does anyone have a link to the actual proposal, rather than a few bullet points about it?
"Pro-immigration ends in an ant heap nation like asia."
And the greatest nation that ever existed. Without immigration we would weaken, wither and atrophy. Trust me, as a employer I'm reminded every time I am looking for new hires that you don't want this nation depending just on our native born spoiled citizens.
Jane asked ...
Is Rubio naive or being snookered by the Dems?
No, I think he's just *treading water* and trying to stay alive in the public mind.
I have to believe that he's smart enough to know that the cockamamy bi-partisan plan won't work. So being up front and visible he's trying to take away the "they won't cooperate" meme.
Somebody who believes in this plan let me know when the mob of illegals shows up to confess past tax evasion and offers to pay up back taxes and the arrears penalties and interest involved. I anticipate great humor in the identify your *employers* part and the follow on outreach of the IRS to same.
I want to watch.
PS: I think a plan is possible, but it will have to be of the **go and sin no more** variety that deals with the **present** criteria. Enforcement is key as well, but fact is Obama's administration has been tougher than previous administrations on that feature...only recently pandering to legal and illegal voters by stopping deportation of selected groups.
"Also, does anyone have a link to the actual proposal, rather than a few bullet points about it?"
I keep hearing that there isn't one yet, just dialogue and ideas, which is good, and I hope it stays at that for long enough to get it right,which I give a 15% chance.
I'm just happy that we're much closer to Latin America than the Middle East.
My pet requirement: every applicant must speak English with a fair degree of competence to be eligible. If you can't, then it's not much of a hardship to go back home, is it?
This will be framed as bigoted, but the proof is in the pudding: immigrants who speak English achieve more and improve their economic standing. Dual-language classes in early education actually served as an impediment to progress in California. English-only classes better served the new students.
Ha ha. Marshal said "common sense."
Why the Elephants don't zero in on re-instituting a viable "Guest-Worker" program (once known as the "Bracero" program in the 50s) as an alternate to citizenship is beyond me. It polls well with the American public and polls indicate many potential Mexican worker "illegals" south of the border would get behind the idea as well...not to mention it would help solve a very real need for seasonal agricultural farm labor here..
The bipartisan immigration report. Not sure it has actually been submitted as a bill before the Senate.
The fix is in.
Screw American workers.
It's a bipartisan screw job.
What's new?
What I expect is a bipartisan plan that legalizes the 11 million, and is tough in language, and totally ineffective in practice. That's what we do with everything. Oh yea, and someway it will screw you if you work for a living and pay taxes. That's a given, but that's the status quo anyway.
The guest-worker part bugs me the most -- if we had a genuine shortage of low-skill workers, we'd see their wages increasing, not stagnating or decreasing as has been the case. (But activists blame stagnating wages on evil corporations and evil CEOs, with no connection whatsoever to supply and demand.)
"The fix is in.
Screw American workers."
They voted for it. These people are duly elected. There really is no way to stop a foolish electorate. You just ride the wave, and try to keep your balance.
You just ride the wave, and try to keep your balance.
Or get carried out to sea by it in the rip current.
Apparently pols are such scum that they don't give a damn about their own grandchildren. Does anyone seriously think that a nation of half a million will retain ANY liberty? Ant heap nations are incompatible with the very idea of individual liberty.
Say it, this is about importing a new permanent underclass that can be counted upon to vote Democrat until the Margaret Sanger crowd thinks there are too many of them and starts pushing abortion at them.
And the "traction" is about vote fraud. Get SCOTUS to toss the consent decree and that will disappear overnight.
If the economy keeps shrinking as it did last quarter, the immigration problem will solve itself.
Thanks for the link! Looks like the guest worker plan is to destroy supply-and-demand regulating wages for workers. If you offer minimum wage and no American accepts, no problem, hire elsewhere! Unless unemployment rates are exceedingly low, the answer to a labor shortage is always better pay, better working conditions, and less restrictive expecatations (e.g., train on-the-job).
Methinks we have a horse/barn door problem here.
What difference, at this point, does it make?
There's always going to be "illegal" immigration from countries bordering the United States. The USA is too attractive a place to be, and has in normal times far more opportunity than one of our neighbors, Mexico.
I always find it curious that so many people who otherwise do not want government interference in the market want to regulate the borders strictly. Are you in favor of economic freedom, or are you not? Or is it just a freedom for people who are presently Americans and our "legal: guests.
There is a higher law, and there are stronger forces than government can bring to bear. Our goal should be open borders with our proximate neighbors Mexico and Canada. We will be amazed at how much productivity this will unleash.
ricpic said...
Apparently pols are such scum that they don't give a damn about their own grandchildren.
Not true. They believe their influence can secure their descendents' futures either directly with government sincures or indirectly via crony capitalism.
David said...
There's always going to be "illegal" immigration from countries bordering the United States. The USA is too attractive a place to be, and has in normal times far more opportunity than one of our neighbors, Mexico.
As EMD notes, that's changing and why at least 2 mil illegals have gone home.
Despite all the extraneous bullshit, the thing that gets conservatives riled about illegal immigration more than anything is the law breaking, the cheating, the unfairness to citizens and legal immigrants. If you can frame a policy that does not give the cheaters an advantage for cheating, most conservatives can get on board. We want immigrants, we love the very idea of it. It's the sneaking to the front of the line that ruins it for everyone.
Bingo.
Jane: Is Rubio naive or being snookered by the Dems?
Neither. None of these people want enforcement, so it's all good. (For them.)
bagoh: Despite all the extraneous bullshit, the thing that gets conservatives riled about illegal immigration more than anything is the law breaking, the cheating, the unfairness to citizens and legal immigrants...We want immigrants, we love the very idea of it.
Who's "we"? Though law-breaking does indeed present a problem in itself (corruption is contagious), and I have a great deal of personal sympathy for the crap honest, productive, would-be citizens endure from our fine immigration services, even skilled, legal immigration is problematic and subject to corruption. E.g., a lot of the "staple a green card" propaganda doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, either. Skilled labor is just as subject to deleterious labor market forces and lobbying chicanery as low- and no-skilled labor. (Just ask any skilled worker who's had to train his own replacement.)
But no matter. As they say, "the fix is in". I will adjust my attitude to civic virtue accordingly.
David said...
Or is it just a freedom for people who are presently Americans and our "legal: guests.
America is responsible for America. To the extent we influence the world [say via a military that maintains world stability] it should be for our benefit.
Mexicans are responsible for Mexico.
Should've said "Bingo Bagoh."
Missed opportunity.
Or is it just a freedom for people who are presently Americans and our "legal: guests.
Yes.
As we infinitely-blessed citizens of the United States of America strive to secure the blessings set forth in the Constitution’s stirring preamble, our Founding Fathers remind us that we do so “for ourselves and our posterity”—not only for our children and our grandchildren, but literally for “all succeeding generations.”
Steve Sailer has written at length about the open borders idiocy David just burbled.
I suggest you read Sailer. Yes, we do have the right to decide who lives here. There is a right of ownership.
David: I always find it curious that so many people who otherwise do not want government interference in the market want to regulate the borders strictly.
Thinking is hard, isn't it, David? But I am moved by the persistence of a spark of intellectual curiosity in a brain so limited and dogma-hampered.
The "bigotry" mania must be stopped, but I'll be damned if I can think of a way to do it.
Even Althouse turns into a stooge when the "bigotry" mania is invoked.
OK -- it's true that the pace of illegal immigration has slowed, but that's in large part because potential border-crossers are weighing the benefits of a life with false ID or working under the table, with no government benefits, vs. living openly, receiving government-paid healthcare (however lousy), etc., in Mexico. If we open the borders with the right to work legally, that's a different situation.
And David says that we should open our border to Mexico and Canada. Why stop there, if you profess that open immigration is a net positive. Why not invite everyone? And are you taking it for granted that your kids will all be smart enough to get the white collar jobs that'll still be reserved for native-born Americans, or are you cool with your kids, if they can't hack it in college, competing along with the desparate poor who'll live 10 to a room?
Sen. John Vitter: If Sen. Rubio thinks mass citizenship won't immediately follow legal status, "he's nuts."
Awful. My opinion of Rubio, which was once high, sinks further every time he speaks on this issue and reinforces the point that he and his party are now officially, Dem Lite. Gee, I hope they are not called "villans". This move ought to get them praise from the MSM, maybe an invite for lunch with Andrea Mitchell. That's worth sacrificing your country's sovereignty.
David said ...
Our goal should be open borders with our proximate neighbors Mexico and Canada.
You know...I could go along with that, IF strict photographic voter ID were the law of the land in all 50 states....AND...the PASS ID card was a mandatory requirement for cross border travel for citizens (would make a good voter ID too) and passport/equivalent for all others issued by Mexico or Canada.
BUT ... we have Democrat morons who don't want voter ID to be useful, and faux-Republican, promoted way beyond his capability, General Colin Powell on television yesterday saying ID should only be necessary when your register to vote, and your *word* should be sufficient at the polls.
Yassuh...ole Colin thinks Republicans still have a wad of Jim Crown in their blood, and voter ID is one proof of that!
Never mind the fawning attention by Republicans during his entire career beyond Lieutenant Colonel...or the fact that Jim Crow was instituted by Democrats in the first place.
There's also nary a mention of Obama as Deporter-in-Chief, although he certainly is.
bagoh20: And the greatest nation that ever existed.
Immigration in itself does not make a country great. If that were so the U.S. would just be one among many kick-ass New World "nations of immigrants".
Immigration can be beneficial, immigration can be disastrous. There's nothing implicitly good about immigration in itself.
Without immigration we would weaken, wither and atrophy. Trust me, as a employer I'm reminded every time I am looking for new hires that you don't want this nation depending just on our native born spoiled citizens.
I think we have here the crux of disagreements about immigration. Are we a nation, or a corporation? If you think the latter, then it is merely sound business sense to look for employees beyond the "spoiled citizens". If one thinks that the United States is something more than a global labor exchange (we aging people do have our silly nostalgic fantasies), then the problem of "spoiled citizens" isn't solved by endlessly importing fresh workers, who will settle and produce more "spoiled citizens", which in turn will require more, more, more immigration...'til we're what - half-a-billion? A billion?
It's not that I don't appreciate your labor problems - I've dealt with the kind of spoiled citizens you're talking about; they certainly exist. Restricting immigration and dealing as a nation with the employability of the young beats the hell out of your "hey, fuck 'our posterity'", bring on the ant heap" solution.
I will add that as a parent of soon-to-be-adult children, who have worked their tails off since they reached legal working age at "jobs Americans won't do", including field workers and hotel maids, I don't have any patience for blanket assertions about the worthlessness of native-born workers. The fact is, if we lived in an immigrant-heavy area, those jobs would have been off-limits to my children, and no doubt I would have had to listen to insults about what worthless lazy shits they are. (Oh wait, I had to listen to that anyway, if I had the radio on as I dropped my 14-year old off at the pick-up point for her agricultural stoop-labor job.) Of course, illegals are already moving in on those jobs here, so my kids were probably the last in this area to have those work opportunities.
It's not just about political calculation and 'looking good.' Rubio is also interested in doing what's right.
David said...
I always find it curious that so many people who otherwise do not want government interference in the market want to regulate the borders strictly
I don't think you could possibly be any dumber.
I always find it curious that so many people who otherwise do not want government interference in the market want to regulate the borders strictly
Yeah, that's pretty dumb.
Please understand that generally conservatives do believe one of the duties of a federal government is to provide security for its citizenry. Border control would fall under those limited duties.
Again we are treated to Kabuki! Push. Pull. Push. We are about to see a bidding war to demonstrate our love for people of Spanish speaking nations. Which side will demonstrate their love most lovingly? I would imagine we are headed to further open borders and immediate citizenship. This, along with many other genies, is a genie out of the bottle. The culture war is over and the liberals have won. In a few years all people of Spanish and African heritage will be registered voters who will not be required to trod to the polls, their votes will be automatically cast for the government party which will be their employer in one fashion or another. Your children will be taught by these citizens in the diversity classes that will be held periodically and which you will attend.
As bago and I have both remarked previously, anyone who does their grocery shopping anywhere but Whole Foods or Trader Joe's has witnessed the negative effects of uncontrolled immigration. Many illegals work under the table and are paid in cash. Because they have no official income they qualify for WICC and EBT cards and buy most of their food with them. These people are not living in the shadows. They are out there for everyone to see if you go to the right places. They drive without driver's licenses or insurance because they can’t prove their identity. If you have a wreck with one of them they disappear and you are stuck with your uninsured motorist coverage paying, driving up premiums. They get their medical care for free at emergency rooms and free clinics. Every town of any size around here has a free clinic manned by volunteers—my wife volunteers in one.
Lately, and locally, several prostitution rings have been broken up of women brought in from Latin America. Another group was caught filing false income tax returns with fake w-2s and SSANs and collecting the refunds.
So far, most of their violence has been confined to their own community. They regularly shoot or cut each other at night clubs. I don't think it will stay that way forever.
I think most Americans have witnessed this in their own communities. They are not going to vote for or support someone, Democrat or Republican, who makes it worse.
Just remember this isn't about immigration, this is about 2014 and 2016. Obama is campaigning and some of you are arguing about details and all this lofty crap like saving the country from hoardes of Mexicans. The battle for control of congress started Nov 7, 2012. You really think Obama, et al have any other objective in any of this?
SteveR: You are absolutely correct. Thus the bidding war which the Dems will win. This is very uncomplicated stuff and the more the Repub huff and puff about the so-called "law" the harder they will be trounced. As has been amply demonstrated the "law" is a very elastic notion and absolutely laughable when it comes to immigration.
Richard Dolan said...
It's not just about political calculation and 'looking good.' Rubio is also interested in doing what's right.
Really? Then what is all this retroactive tax confession and payment shtick?
That will n-e-v-e-r work, but it sounds so righteous, yada yada.
Focus on getting those who do not pay taxes to pay those taxes from here on out in exchange for better status....and the mechanism is already in place at the IRS...called a "Tax ID Number" for those without Social Security Numbers.
Just force compliance for those who seek improved status...depart the rest. Even with open borders, a worker in this country will pay tax in this country under any sane plan.
This "report" is nonsense as written so far.
"And we're not. Never have been."
hahahahahahahahahahahaha.......
Open borders, let's have a free for all!
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