The president’s office sought to clarify his remarks, saying he was encouraging “the previously oppressed African majority” to uphold its own culture.
२७ डिसेंबर, २०१२
South African president Jacob Zuma said owning a dog is part of "white culture."
He said that loving dogs more than people shows a “lack of humanity” and an effort to “emulate whiteness.” He's gotten some criticism for these remarks.
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Abusing dogs is a part of black culture. Neglecting, hurting, fighting and killing dogs is an effort to "emulate blackness".
You see, cultural stereotypes can work nicely any which way!
Do Africans enjoy eating cane asada like the Indonesians do?
What an idiot.
It said he gave examples of people loving animals more than other human beings — letting a dog sit in the cab of a truck while a worker has to sit in the back in the rain, or rushing an animal to the veterinarian while ignoring sick relatives or workers.
I can make up stuff too.
Michael Vick concurs.
It's a great thing for all of us that only white people can be racists.
Think how ugly it would be if other people were racists too?
He is right, of course. We feel the same way about our wives and children too if you give a cold look at the statistics on marriage and children with fathers in the picture. And often well loved dogs.
The oppressed Zeus.
That's why he cant get his own tag.
Free Zeus now!
Wonder if he also thinks learning to read, given a black African lack of a written language before the Arabs came a slaving, is also "emulating whiteness"
(Or Arabness)
Cedarford. You are not taking into account the fact that much African knowkedge was stolen by the Greeks.
Is it worth to slave over the words of a bitter soul?
There's a certain "lack of humanity" in the way that the South African government sorta doesn't pay much attention to the murders of white farmers by blacks who want their land, too.
South Africa is in the mist of a huge crime wave. Murder, rape, robberies, just total anarchy, all after they threw the whits out of their country.
And so this 'leader' talks about dogs and 'white culture'. South Africa is slipping into black barbarism back when the blacks sold blacks into slavery.
Don't believe me? Go look at Zimbabwe and you will see what South Africa will be like in 10 years.
South Africa is in the mist of a huge crime wave.
A scapegoat is needed!
Kenya had thousands of miles of macadam roads when the British were thrown out. Now hundreds. The Cong has virtually none left. Gone back to jungle. Who would have thought?
There's lots of tension over in South Africa. There always has been. It's all revenge for Rorke's Drift.
Lots of guns in that "Zulu" clip. Michael Caine's first movie too.
I mostly agree with the first part. I do think loving dogs (or any animal) over fellow humans shows a lack of humanity. After that, no support for Zuma's comments.
I donno.
I remember a Miss Universe pageant a long long time ago where the young lady from South Africa said she wanted to save all the little puppies.
Honest... okay, I don't remember exactly what she said, but it stuck in my teenaged mind like a brain bug because she was worried about how dogs were treated and that was her obligatory "save the world" humanitarian sound bite... mistreated and unwanted dogs.
So who knows, maybe there is some cultural back ground here that makes it all make sense.
And if you think about it... how bad is it to spend $12K on new hips for your dog... even in terms of what could be done for other dogs. But really, people are hungry and hurt and unemployed and everything... how do you morally justify $12K on a pair of dog hips?
Not that it bothers me when people do that... unless they're sanctimonious butts about how wonderful they are because they won't put an animal down... then it's open season.
If owning and caring for a dog makes me white, then guess what...
Michael said...
Cedarford. You are not taking into account the fact that much African knowkedge was stolen by the Greeks.
Pedophilia? Hmmm, things make sense now.
Sounds like black and Moslem antipathies are getting closer all the time.
chickelit said...
There's lots of tension over in South Africa. There always has been. It's all revenge for Rorke's Drift.
40 to 1 and they couldn't take the post. That had to hurt.
Isandlwana was the Zulus' Little Big Horn. After that, the Limeys got mad.
jacob Zuma also believes that showering after sex with an HIV-positive partner reduces the risk of being infected.
I guess it's about all about race in other countries too.
Merry Christmas from Herr Professor Doktor: Red Meat for Racists. mmmmmmmmm I just love that chewy goodness
I love my cats, but you know what?
Cats, like dogs, don't go to Heaven. Just people.
I'm a firm believer in the teaching of Saint Francis and be good stewards to Earth and all of its creation, which means I have an obligation to domesticated animals. But my obligation to my pets, are different then my obligation to human beings.
Animals work on instinct, and don't have free will. Honestly I feel bad, when a dog bites because they may genuinely sense fear and well the dog gets the penalty. Do I think people put their domestic pets on odd level of devotion? Yes, but I also defend animals as needed. We bred them into pets, and but they're still have natural instincts to be wild and I think we ask too much of them.
One of my children received this book for Christmas, very funny and also an important message in how we treat animals.
Children Make Terrible Pets by Peter Brown
Leland said...
I do think loving dogs (or any animal) over fellow humans shows a lack of humanity ...
How sad for you. If you cannot love the least among us equally, you cannot love anyone.
"He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." --Immanuel Kant
"Our task must be to free ourselves...by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." --Albert Einstein
Zuma is just the run of the mill corrupt Marxist ANC politician constantly in the rut.
God help South Africa when Mandela dies. He is about all that is keeping the ANC from barbarism. Why did England fight the Boers ? Anybody have any idea ?
Herr Professor Doktor: Red Meat for Racists. mmmmmmmmm I just love that chewy goodness
Someone put saltpeter on Howard's Wheaties this morning.
Renee said ...
Cats, like dogs, don't go to Heaven. ...[snip]... Animals work on instinct, and don't have free will.
Are you very sure about those concepts?
"Animals share with us the privilege of having a soul." --Pythagoras
"The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different." --Hippocrates
As a 13 year old boy I came face to face with a cougar in the Colorado mountains. In our brief meeting there was no fear, only suspicion of what was unknown to both of us. I've more recently been face to face with wolves in Montana...and again no fear on either side, only suspicion on the wolves' part, and for good reason given their experience with man.
Tell me again, who has a soul?
Palladian wrote:
Abusing dogs is a part of black culture...
Court Order: Michael Vick is ordered in no way to maltreat any canine in any way or -- if there's anybody watchin'.
Aridog
IMHO, treatment of dogs (cats, horses) does not translate into treatment of people.
While treatment of people does translate into treatment of animals.
A few prominent historical monsters loved their pets.
But I can't think of a great humanitarian who tortured his/her pets.
I've more recently been face to face with wolves in Montana...and again no fear on either side, only suspicion on the wolves' part
er....
I'd ask, is that you, Timothy Treadwell? but I know how it really turned out for him.
In The New Yorker, a recent article pointed out that 50% of the women in South Africa claim that they have been raped and 25% of the men claim to have participated in a rape. Those are pretty ghastly statistics. They are made worse by the fact that the President is a man who has been credibly accused of rape....There were black and white activists who joined hands to condemn apartheid. Why can't black and white feminists join hands to condemn this man and the widespread practice of rape in South Africa. If we can shame whites into giving up apartheid, we can't we shame South Africans into giving up rape?....Is it possible for a liberal to pass moral judgement on any activity in Africa other than apartheid?
How many women in South Africa must be raped before Howard can speak out? Silence is consent.
Oh hell, let's highlight other statements in that report...
"“Even if you apply any kind of lotion and straighten your hair, you will never be white,” he reportedly said."
That sounds logical, honest, right. As appearances are just a book cover.
"In 2006, as deputy president, he said same-sex marriages, which are today protected under South African law, were “a disgrace to the nation and to God.”"
So really, what was the point of this being world wide news. Just another person, with another opinion.
This bullshit notion that our leaders have some sort of script they need follow is just that, bullshit. Well, if they are a leader.
Perfectionism is a witless goal.
It's actually part of a global tradition to care for the animals in your possession. There is also a practical need and incentive to ensure they remain healthy and strong.
This is especially true in South Africa, where murder and rape are more the norm than in other first world nations. Where illegal aliens are routinely murdered, raped, and robbed. Where redistributive change by virtue of skin color (i.e. legal prejudice) is integral to the composition of the constitution.
Anyway, perhaps Zuma believes that humans can and should fill the roles of animals in a society, or just the dogs which provide protection from minority interests murdering, raping, and taxing people into submission.
Zuma reminds me of our own Obama who offers Obamacare as a solution to a problem, which does not actually address finitely accessible resources nor the various causes of progressive inflation for provision of medical services and pharmaceuticals. Perhaps Zuma, like Obama, is hoping to ingratiate himself with a certain demographic in order to increase democratic leverage.
Is South Africa in an election period? I guess it doesn't really matter. If Zuma is anything like Obama, then he is active in a perpetual campaign. His decision to manufacture and exploit differentials among the people he serves suggests that he is in a weak position. He hopes to advance his position through extortion, fraud, and prejudice (real and manufactured).
Darleen ... you actually think Treadwell was a normal man in his antics with Brown Bears? Maybe you've also heard of photographer Jim Cole, of Montana, and his attack by a Grizzly. In both cases both men took the bears for granted...e.g., treated them like something other than bears.
If you want to see "published" men who "get it" about wild life, try Casey Anderson of Bozeman or Leo Keeler of Emigrant, Montana. In Leo's case, look up his work with the McNeil River bears and the wolves in Denali. I consider Leo and his wife friends, and people who care for others beyond what most folks do.
I don't go about anthropomorphizing wildlife, especially pinnacle predators. Especially not in human/wildlife boundary areas. I treat animals for what they are, and try to understand their behavior, not presume similarity to mine. I've rescued German Shepherd-Timber Wolf hybrids, from idiots who bought them, and was easily able to discriminate those with more wolf than dog and vice versa...and place them appropriately. The best one, "Shadow" lived 12 years and raised two boys from infancy. One of these days I'll scan some photos of him and post them on a cafe thread. If you were close to "Shadow" and looked in to his eyes, you could see the wildness still there, and the intelligence behind them that no doubt gave rise to domestic dogs long ago.
You go ahead and measure humans as superior ... just don't venture to far into a wilderness. We are among the weakest of mammals, after all.
Sorry no pets in Heaven.
" The Church will demand that animals be respected as part of creation while at the same time insisting that the dignity owed a human being should never be given to an animal."
Catechism of the Catholic Church 2415-2418.
"2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196
2416 Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.
2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons."
"You go ahead and measure humans as superior ... just don't venture to far into a wilderness. We are among the weakest of mammals, after all."
Yes, we got 'the
smarts' to leave animals alone, that is why we're superior. we should know better. When my daughter got to close to a dog and her puppies, after being warned not to, I was angry at my daughter not the dog when she almost got bitten.
Shouting Thomas:
The "crime wave" is part of their black letter law. The law which our own Justice Ginsburg believes is superior to our Constitution. Their supreme law has selective prejudice integrated by design. They describe it as "progressive", but it is unqualified.
To be fair, the criminals, at least at the low levels, do not strictly distinguish between people by their skin color. At the subsistence level, both blacks and whites are competing interests, and therefore legitimate targets for involuntary exploitation.
Obviously Zuma is speaking of his experiences in South Africa. In the U.S., it seems every urban black household has pit bulls for pets.
Renee said...
Yes, we got 'the
smarts' to leave animals alone, that is why we're superior. we should know better.
First, not everyone is Catholic nor do all Catholics follow your prescription. I've known far more bastard men than dogs or horses, and I've life long experience with all three. I'll take the horses and dogs for companions I need not fear turning my back on...your mileage may vary.
Second, you are in denial. We don't leave animals alone, we take advantage of them, and for the most part, that is okay...even better if we grasp what Temple Grandin has to tell us. If you live anywhere west of Delaware, you didn't "do that yourself"...animals enabled you.
Woof, woof.
The sad part, Rwanda is better run than South Africa.
Well, what do you expect?
Racists say racist things.
Dogs: More stuff white people like.
He has a point, since I am more concerned with what my dog thinks of me than what he does, and my dog thinks I'm awesome.
Cultural Marxism has gone to the dogs. ja
Aridog,
I presume you are unable to comprehend what I wrote. You certainly haven't shown understanding. How sad for you.
Cultural Marxism has gone to the dogs. ja
William asks: Is it possible for a liberal to pass moral judgement on any activity in Africa other than apartheid?
This is an excellent question. I'll bet even Althouse would struggle to answer that one honestly. I've argued with Ritmo over this and he seems convinced that we should transfer wealth to Africa.
Michael said...
Kenya had thousands of miles of macadam roads when the British were thrown out. Now hundreds. The Cong has virtually none left. Gone back to jungle. Who would have thought?
==========
And Detroit, Camden, Chicago, Durham, Newark, etc. are not too far behind.
The truth is, if the Union Army could have looked 110 years into the future and see the ultimate fate blacks, and black run local governments wreaked on their Northern neighborhoods and cities, they would have dropped their rifles and headed back North.
Aridog
You claim you do not anthropomorphize animals .. ok, I'll accept that
then you claim you prefer the company of animals to humans and that humans r not "superior."
So rather than anthropomorphizing animals you are devolving humans into something less than animals.
A kind of misanthropy.
blessyourheart
William asks: Is it possible for a liberal to pass moral judgement on any activity in Africa other than apartheid?
Why look at it from a stance of "moral judgment?"
How about trying "pragmatic judgment?"
That will clarify things for you, I think. If you know how to make that distinction.
"So rather than anthropomorphizing animals you are devolving humans into something less than animals."
Just put human history side by side with canines' and tell me what dogs have to be ashamed of.
bagoh20
Dogs do not possess free will, and hence, have no capacity to act morally (or immorally).
Really, what the f*** is the state of our society that this even has to be explained?
e.g. I don't hold Hitler's dog responsible for being loyal to his master.
Darleen, you're a pretty lady.
That is if that's really you. We never know in this virtual world, do we?
After spending the last week with family and friends 24/7, I'm pretty sure I prefer a dog's company. I love my family immensely, and I wish this was not the case, but if I am honest, I have to admit that I don't like people. I have never felt the need to be free of a dog's company, while humans often make me want to escape. It may be a defect I have, but I'm OK with that one. I'm a hot mess in a lot of ways, but this is not one I feel bad about.
I don't know why people make me so uncomfortable. I'm successful, normal height and weight, no extra appendages, or deformities, and I know enough about a wide range of subjects to converse about most things, but I just don't enjoy it face to face. A forum like this brings more out of me than anything else, and that's still pretty reserved. I think I just don't like people. I love them enough that I want nothing more than to help as many as I can, but I don't like them on an instinctual level.
If I was one of the few survivors after the Apocalypse and I just spotted the first other human in months, I would probably run the other way, unless they were hurt and needed me. I've tried to overcome it, but it just is not natural for me. I may be an alien. I mean you no harm, and I really don't want to be taken to your leader. They all seem to be dicks.
"Dogs do not possess free will..."
And people do?.
I don't accept either premise, but even if I did. Motive don't matter to me as much as actions, and results.
But if they did, I'd have a hard time with the idea that atrocities make us superior because we have a choice and decide to do them?
A well trained human has no more free will than a well trained dog. Hitler had plenty of both. At least the dog has a smaller brain as an excuse. I bet Hitler would have a lot harder time getting a dog to kill his fellow dogs for no good reason.
It used to said that there was no civilization north of the Limpopo. Obviously that is no longer true outside of a few enclaves in South Africa.
It said he gave examples of people loving animals more than other human beings — letting a dog sit in the cab of a truck while a worker has to sit in the back in the rain, or rushing an animal to the veterinarian while ignoring sick relatives or workers.
How about flying your dog on Air Force One while your brother lives in a Kenyan slum? Is that a black or white thing?
I am proud of all the racial healing that's happened under Oabama.
It's like a miracle.
Shouting Thomas suggests asking: How about trying "pragmatic judgment?"
That will clarify things for you, I think. If you know how to make that distinction.
Same difference ST. Lefties just can't pass any judgement on Africa. It's given a pass to fuck itself up.
"If lovin you is wrong, I don't want to be right"
Look, I understand. Freedom is not for everybody. Only us dog-loving Celtic Vikings. Perhaps "you people" forget that people in South Afrika were treated like the blacks of South Afrika treat dogs. People.
And some of you remmington rangers brag of 19th century kill ratios against an iron-age foe. Fish in a barrel is the only kind of chances you C-words would ever take. Such is the fear and depression of a lonely teabagger living on Mom's service porch.
Perhaps you are too coddled and weak to truly understand how and why the black man fears and hates dogs. The canine brothers of the Viking/Celt overlord has a thing for the sight and smell of people of colour. All dogs love me and my dog smell... does that make me a brave warrior or is it just an accident of my birth?
Onward, Christian Soldiers!
Yeah, it's easy to sit here in my fracked natural gas heated schloss, running patches through the precise rifling of my Springfield, enjoying a nice Chianti with my shade-grown, organic fava beans and think that the South Afrikan Black is an inferior subhuman who fears and hates dogs.
If that is what it takes for you "men" to get wood, I'm sure it makes the Kleenex happy.
I thought Howard was either drunk-commenting or simply a lunatic, but a little research indicated that he might be right.
Consider this graphic evidence of dog-on-black-South-African violence, for example.
"Second, you are in denial. We don't leave animals alone, we take advantage of them."
I agree, I had prime rib for Christmas. Yum!
And if I had to, could kill for food.
Cats and dogs are now bred only for companionship. Dogs and cats could be bred for food, if we wished as well. Interesting how we choose how some species adapt to our will as human beings.
Pets do not replace relationships with human beings.
My wife had dogs as pets when she was growing up in the Philippines. When they came up limping, they went into the pot. I'm told dog adobo is delicious and short-haired dog tastes better than long-haired dog for some reason.
When she hears of people spending thousands of dollars on medical treatment for their pets, she just shakes her head and says, "Americans are crazy!"
Wouldn't dogs fit nicely among the other entries in Stuff White People Like? It's not a knock on dogs, but treating dogs like family members does seem to be more of a white thing. Look at Facebook; white people are always posting pictures of their dogs. If someone shows up at your house with his dog under the assumption that of course his dog should be allowed in with him as though it were a person, it's going to be a white guy. (Probably a white guy in a North Face jacket.)
Leland said...
I presume you are unable to comprehend what I wrote. You certainly haven't shown understanding. How sad for you.
English is my first language. I understand what you wrote just fine. You see humans as superior to other animals. I see humans holding a place, but not superior....in that without animals we humans would long ago have died out. So we disagree.
Now if there is some esoteric meaning I missed, please illuminate it here.
Renee said...
I agree, I had prime rib for Christmas. Yum!... And if I had to, could kill for food.
Good for you. Have you ever killed for food? Even just as a farmer or rancher? I don't think you grasped what I meant here. Look up how Native Americans viewed the animals they ate...then try Temple Grandin for further viewpoints.
Cats and dogs are now bred only for companionship.
Oh, really? Tell that to the cattle and sheep ranchers on the high plains and the various working dog groups among police and rescue agencies.
Dogs and cats could be bred for food, if we wished as well.
No "could be" about it. Dogs are raised for food in several Asian countries, where some consider it a delicacy. They also roast bugs and eat poisonous fish in some areas. I've lived there, in fact...and it is their custom not mine.
Speaking of eating dog or cat, have you ever visited Korea and eaten the little dumplings called "Yakimondu" from the ubiquitous kiosks and street vendors? If so, do you think they shop at the butcher shop for pork or beef? While there did you notice the surprising lack of feral or loose dogs and cats?
Interesting how we choose how some species adapt to our will as human beings.
Do you really think humans made all the selections for adaptation? How about the wolf that one day decided humans had food and he'd like to share some of it. He first stole it, but later figured out he could have more if he "adapted" as you say...and you think humans are the smarter? :-))
Pets do not replace relationships with human beings.
Now, you know I never said that or anything close to it. I said, simply, that in most instances I can trust a dog or horse with my back more than most humans. No dog or horse has ever shot at me. Can't say that about humans.
Darleen said ...
So rather than anthropomorphizing animals you are devolving humans into something less than animals.
I think you mean well, but you do not understand what I have said. Your stumbling block, for lack of a better term, is the issue of "superiority" and who has it.
No where did I say humans are inferior to animals. We all have capabilities which can be advantageous or disastrous. In terms of morality or whatever you want to call it...name an animal species with a worse record than humans?
Actually, meaning well, or not, you have little grasp of animals per se. You've said they lack free will and can't be moral or immoral. That is a rather superficial statement regarding higher order social mammals in general.
Let's call "serial killing" and immoral act. Usually even apex predators do not "serial kill" and leave the carcases to rot....BUT, some do. It is psychological and most often a result of lack of socialization and maturation under guidance of mature animals. Wolves are capable of serial killing if their pack structures are broken up and if the mature members are killed off. The young then have no guidance and no concept of pack morality. Does the cliche' "waste not, want not" apply to wolves? After all, they essentially teach it to their young.
There is another reason mature predators like wolves don't abide serial killing of prey...it is a cost/risk to a pack because in every attack on prey there is a risk of injury or death to the attacker.
Animals do teach their young complex rules of behavior, call it what you like. It has even been shown to be an issue with elephants when they were removed from the herd too young.
bagoh20 said...
"So rather than anthropomorphizing animals you are devolving humans into something less than animals."
Just put human history side by side with canines' and tell me what dogs have to be ashamed of.
That stain on living room carpet, for one thing.
Freeman Hunt said...
Wouldn't dogs fit nicely among the other entries in Stuff White People Like? It's not a knock on dogs, but treating dogs like family members does seem to be more of a white thing...
Well, okay now...I'm not ashamed of being white. :-))
However, I don't treat dogs like family members...I like dogs better than most family members. Now our cat, "NitWit" is more like family members at times.
As for "showing up" with our dogs in tow...never happen. It'd be unkind to the dogs. Unless a host specifically asks for us to bring our dogs, they stay home.
Rusty said...
That stain on living room carpet, for one thing.
Now, unless your dog is a Beagle, that stain is a direct result of you thinking you can "command" a dog not to pee or poop when it needs to and has made that perfectly clear to you... "-))
If the dog is a Beagle, it is because you had the audacity to tell it anything what-so-ever...and it felt a need to give you an object lesson.
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