"Are you not capable of mourning the horrific loss of these poor dear innocent souls without turning this into a vituperative bromide about your personal views on gun control?"
Comment among many hundreds of comments at the NYT article about the Connecticut massacre.
१४ डिसेंबर, २०१२
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१२७ टिप्पण्या:
A fanatic is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject.
Well Ann,
They feel they should not let a 'crisis go to waste'.
I only wish they would focus on nutjob control.
Are you not capable of mourning the horrific loss of these poor dear innocent souls without turning this into a vituperative bromide about your personal views on gun control?
Based on Facebook, no, not capable.
Whenever a tragedy happens -- not just a gun massacre but really any sort of senseless tragedy -- it is perfectly natural to want to do something, anything, so that this can never happen again.
But sometimes there is nothing you can do that will not make things worse.
A lot of people unconsciously love when this kind of thing happens. It's grief pornography and confirmation.
Nope. Just look at The Atlantic and Daily Beast's professionals.
And lo, mere hours after the crime, one faceless hero stepped forth to condemn the NYT commenter villains for discussing policy solutions for senseless crimes that terrorize communities across the land. No identity was needed for this heroic act to be renowned, for tenured law professors/amazon affiliates did their service and spread the word across the Internet. The real criminals were identified at last: the lamestream media and liberals (and Obama, prob, he's the worst)
And lo, mere hours after the crime, one faceless hero stepped forth to condemn the NYT commenter villains for discussing policy solutions for senseless crimes that terrorize communities across the land. No identity was needed for this heroic act to be renowned, for tenured law professors/amazon affiliates did their service and spread the word across the Internet. The real criminals were identified at last: the lamestream media and liberals (and Obama, prob, he's the worst)
Context is everything, and unfortunately the first thing lost when the spittle starts flying...
Unbelievable
Paul has said it all.
Right out of Alinsky somewhere,
What kind of badge for the robotic "this kind of shooting just proves once again that we need more gun control" commenters?
I shared this to my Facebook friends for some perspective, an article from last year in the WSJ based on Steven Pinker's "The Better Angels of Our Nature."
"On the day this article appears, you will read about a shocking act of violence. Somewhere in the world there will be a terrorist bombing, a senseless murder, a bloody insurrection. It's impossible to learn about these catastrophes without thinking, "What is the world coming to?"
With all its wars, murder and genocide, history might suggest that the taste for blood is human nature. Not so, argues Harvard Prof. Steven Pinker. He talks to WSJ's Gary Rosen about the decline in violence in recent decades and his new book, "The Better Angels of Our Nature."
But a better question may be, "How bad was the world in the past?"
Believe it or not, the world of the past was much worse. Violence has been in decline for thousands of years, and today we may be living in the most peaceable era in the existence of our species."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180.html
People have to understand that there is an established protocol for discussing gun rights/gun control on the day of a highly publicized shooting which runs something like this:
1) Those in favor of gun control may post or say whatever they want as soon as they want.
2) Those who support gun rights and/or think that gun control makes it easier for the killers have to wait a “respectful time” (as determined by those who support gun control) before opining and then only if they sufficiently abase themselves. OR
3) No one is allowed to discuss the issue unless and until a victim or their family member broaches the subject first and that’s only if the victim or their family member uses their “absolute moral authority” to call for increased gun control.
I hope this helps to clarify things for everyone.
I define a political whore as someone who sees everything through an ideological or political prism. That means, everything that happens must be explained from their political perspective. A political whore uses everything, good or bad, as an opportunity to score points for their side.
Can we have a day in America where everything, most of all the present tragedy, is not politicized?
Just for today?
The vast majority of NYT commentators view every event in the world, as reported by the NYT, as absolute confirmation of their worldview on Republicans, Fox News, Christians, right wing bloggers and more. It must be downright scary to be correct about so many things all the time.
If you want to make a statement, try looking at our mental health industry. Most of these shooters are certifiable nut cases in treatment. And, what were the results for that treatment? Yet, the call is usually for more mental health programs and funding.
Agree - we seem to have gained, in our decaying democracy, a class of people that see all news and events purely as opportunity to push this or that political agenda, or "further weave" the liberal-progressive jewish media "Narrative", or the Green Narrative, or the Grover Norquistian Narrative or whatever.
Right now, I am very saddened and distressed at this evil..not just about the kids, but all the family and people of CT who are affected by this.
Let the Fucking politics wait.
Larry J said...
I define a political whore as someone who sees everything through an ideological or political prism. That means, everything that happens must be explained from their political perspective. A political whore uses everything, good or bad, as an opportunity to score points for their side.
Perfectly stated, LarryJ.
Gun control is akin to word control. We all want the bad users to go away or at worst just fire blanks.
Piers Morgan irked me this AM because he is a person in a position of power and influence--like a Bob Costas--this profoundly differs from commenters on a blog or the NYT.
my heart goes out to all of those who have lost loved ones and are otherwise directly affected by this horrific tragedy.
what does it say about our society that comment threads on site after site today are mostly filled with arguments about politics and guns rather than expressins of compassion for those who are grieving?
Regretably, as other posters have correctly noted, tragedies seem to be only useful to fulfill political agenda.
Until we come to grips that there is evil in the world, and that we cannot explain or rationalize it, we will resort to political explanations.
My heart does to el polacko.
I saw that photo of the young mother screaming. What a nightmare to find your babies are dead.
And who do you punish? The nut is dead. He killed his own mother and father. Who is left? What kind of frustration must the parents of the children feel.
Yea... some Merry Christmas for those families.
Most all the commenters equal "gun control" to "gun removal," but it actually is not the same thing.
Also most do not know the difference between "semi-automatic" and "automatic." If this guy had an "automatic rifle," he had somehow got hold of a military weapon that has been illegal for a civilian to own without a special - since 1986 very special - license.
As for removing all guns - good luck with that. The Germans did not manage to collect all civilian firearms in the occupied countries in WWII, and of course all kinds of military arms were dropped in by the Allies and stolen from their own forces plus any reasonably competent farm smith could make his own Sten-gun. The world is afloat in firearms, and prohibiting them is as futile as prohibition was.
We do indeed need reasonable gun control laws, but ranting and raving about "gun removal" is just mindless foolishness.
I won't even go onto fb because I have too many progressive lemmings who won't let this crisis go to waste. I admit, my first thought was about how someone obviously mentally disturbed could get a gun. But I don't think guns are the problem. Mental health is definitely more of an issue. An equally knee jerk reaction would be calling for institutionalization of the mentally ill.
Troubled Voter said...
And lo, mere hours after the crime, one faceless hero stepped forth to condemn the NYT commenter villains for discussing policy solutions for senseless crimes that terrorize communities across the land. No identity was needed for this heroic act to be renowned, for tenured law professors/amazon affiliates did their service and spread the word across the Internet. The real criminals were identified at last: the lamestream media and liberals (and Obama, prob, he's the worst)
Hard to beat this.
What LarryJ wrote. And what Hagar just wrote.
what does it say about our society that comment threads on site after site today are mostly filled with arguments about politics and guns rather than expressins of compassion for those who are grieving?
Because this is an argument of long standing. It didn't start today, it won't end anytime soon.
And who do you punish? The nut is dead. He killed his own mother and father. Who is left? What kind of frustration must the parents of the children feel.
But even punishing someone wouldn't bring their babies back.
The human condition sucks.
I totally agree with this comment. There is nothing wrong with talking about policy in the wake of a tragedy, but we're not even in the "wake" yet. For Christ's sake people waited longer than this to talk politics, after 9/11.
"poor dear innocent souls." Perfectly said, I weep and pray for them all.
There are pro gun as well as pro ban comments over there so who knows what political commentary inspired this comment, maybe all of it. The left does politicize everything first and asks questions later. OTOH, the comments section at the NYT is not a mourning forum.
AReasonableMan echoed Troubled Voter and added:
Hard to beat this.
_______
Except that the "tenured law professor" and "Amazon affiliate" part was a tell for some beating a dead horse.
Sad to say, but it's one of the things that marks Lefties as different from Conservatives.
There should be programs for institutionalizing the mentally ill. Dumping them out on the streets to fend for themselves rather than making the effort to prevent abuses in the existing programs, was a great mistake.
However, as far as I can remember, none of the perpetrators of the shooting tragedies would have been probably caught by any such program. This also is irrelevant to the problem.
Why is it that these shooting tragedies create such an outpouring of demands for "gun control," but there is hardly any response to the daily butcher's bills from Chicago, L.A., etc.?
What happened after Hurricane Sandy was also a tragedy. All those people victimized because Nanny B refused to have the NYNG on patrol, too many guns.
Agreed about avoiding FB today - don't want to get into a fight about this horrible, evil act.
The goo-goos wanted them on the street, they're on the street, have been 30 years.
leslyn: "So what's your solution?"
Yes, blog commenter: What's your solution to the existence of evil in the world, to violence and mayhem as part of the human condition since the dawn of time?
What, you have none? Then bow to leslyn, she has the solution: Miracle-ing guns out of existence, so we can instead butcher each other with knives and swords.
How's this, leslyn: At my local school, there's one door unlocked to the outside. It leads to an office, which you have to pass through before the next door is unlocked. There are cameras everywhere, at every door and in every hall.
And the school is physically attached to the police station.
And at least one teacher, that I know of, is armed at all times, and has some training (ex-military).
Wow, you say, must be a rough inner-city school. No, that stuff would never pass muster in such a place; it's a small rural school with about 700 students in a conservative county in Ohio.
We're turning into a nation comprised of no one but hard hearts and broken hearts.
What is your solution. leslyn?
It doesn't matter who you quoted, you're empty other than snark?
Piers Morgan is the single most odious member of the MSM going. Can we send him back to Londonistan?
The ultimate way to get rid of private violence is to give the government the sole monopoly on it.
Gulags >>>> random school shootings right?
However, as far as I can remember, none of the perpetrators of the shooting tragedies would have been probably caught by any such program. This also is irrelevant to the problem.
These shooters are all males between the ages of 20-30, they are not dumb and going to allow themselves to be institutionalized. Most of them plan their massacres months in advance.
My solution,
1. More two parent families
2. More clear social roles
3. A ban on anything that tends to disinfranchise men from a role that has value and is honored in society.
There's survival value in interest.
Something bad happens in your neighborhood. You want to learn all about it, and watch out for it, and do what you can to help.
That's all positive, and has survival value.
Your calculations of the odds of things happening may be way off, but it's a calculation mistake that's restricted to a small neighborhood, and a net positive for that reason, probably.
The mass media trades on that interest, but brings you everything that happens anywhere in the world instead of in your neighborhood, selecting out that tendency to interest.
As a result, the world's calculations of odds are completely wrong, and your interest is drawn where it does no good at all and does a lot of harm.
Stop letting them trade on that interst.
Restrict your sympathy to your own neighborhood.
Thank you.
Did Piers know Jimmy Savile?
All children in elementary schools should be withdrawn immediately until the schools can guarantee safety.
There should be a waiting period imposed on people... before opening their yap.
It's so so sad, so terribly sad, those little children and their families. HOW AWFUL! Pray for the families, for the other children who survived but will be marked forever.
Prayer is useless, having armed guards would have prevented this.
Put vicious dogs in schools to protect the children.
Actually you can (and they do) train dogs to go for the gun hand, if you want to actually train them rather than just keeping them to make school bearable for the kids.
One guy I passed on a bike commute had a Doberman and kids outside, and as always I met the Doberman; he said he got the dog so that the kids could safely play outside.
Those comments over there really do open a window on a certain mindset. A mindset that is apparently very common among NYT readers based on the number of them. There are comments there that suggest that Republican politicians are responsible. There are comments that suggest that the commenter is one of the better angels because he lives in a "blue region" where politicians abhor guns. Well, we are all part of this fallen race called humanity. This kind of evil can happen anywhere, with any weapon. In fact, I woke up this morning to the radio alarm telling a story about a man in China who killed a bunch of elementary school children this week with a knife. In a school. Chilling.
sydney - tribalism(blue/red) is as old as the human race.
This is the Democrat way. Find someone, even if the story really doesn't fit, and show how it therefore means their solution will solve the single data-point problem.
Meanwhile, it is wrong of the press to sensationalize all this stuff, making these incidents more powerful in the doing. There should be no sensationalizing. It should simply be, some asshole killed a bunch of kids, and it's going to cause a lot of pain. The guy is dead. Here is how you can show support.
And, let's keep the death penalty active. It didn't take long to execute Timothy McVeigh. Let's send a message to everyone. Sorry, you want to kill people, you forfeit your right to life. Get rid of them faster, and they won't get out later. So what if a small number innocent people are killed along the way? Innocent people die all the time. It's an environmental hazard of being a human being.
A society that does not coddle murderers will be a safer one, for everyone. And there will be fewer accidental executions too, as people figure out it's not a good idea to kill.
Those NYT comments show how detached they are from what happened because of Hurricane Sandy and it happened in their city.
That innocent blood and lives are the price of establishing "gun free zones" which are "free fire zones" for criminals.
It would be safer to arm school staff with man-stopping semi-auto pistols (And the training to go with) to protect children. The police are always too few and too late to do so.
Pastafarian said...
And at least one teacher, that I know of, is armed at all times, and has some training (ex-military).
I would be uncomfortable sending my kid to that school. What if he goes crazy? A not unlikely scenario given the stress students can put teachers under. In your world view the only solution would be to have even more teachers armed and then maybe we should also let the students be armed, each person solely responsible for their personal safety.
This is why its called public safety. Even if the proliferation of guns increased the personal safety of individual gun owners, a dubious position at best, it unquestionable decreases public safety.
--A society that does not coddle murderers will be a safer one, for everyone---
None other than Cass Sustein wrote societies have a moral responsibility to execute, it saves 13 ppl for every one executed.
Example # 34,829 in the never ending series of lessons on why certain critical places should not be gun free zones. If you try to draw a thread from Columbine to this incident, through all the other examples (VA Tech, the Colorado Theater shooting, etc., etc., etc.) the only conclusion is, more guns would stop such shooters at a lower casualty count, or deter them completely. They know when they walk into a school that they will not be confronted by armed guards or police and that the teachers and administrative staff are probably prohibited from carrying. That means they have time to kill a lot of people. That's it, that's the essential lesson in this, other than the fact that there are a lot of dangerous crazy folks out there.
The NRA needs to have its PR shit together, now. Obama is emboldened by the re-election, and anxious to draw some attention away from the fiscal cliff negotiations. I would not put anything past him in this situation.
I'm with rhhardin here. People often cannot avoid politicizing these events precisely because it did not involve their own neighborhoods, and the event exists as a mere abstraction.
If the only appropriate reaction is grief and hats off, then shut the goddamn news stories down because they have nothing at all to do with anyone outside the region.
It's only rubbernecking, lurid entertainment. Yes, it makes me sick to my stomach, but I also have a head that clarifies how this is just more disaster porn, a drama granfalloon, and it's arrogant for me to presume to act as if I am in reality involved.
Should people in England similarly avoid offering nothing but condolences? It's like Princess Di's death: an opportunity to pretend as if she were my family. That seems presumptuous to me.
Well, the Dark Greens would say the world is overpopulated, so let the murderers roam free.
The holier-than-thou attitude on here is pretty great. Reminds me of the nyt comment threads!
Does the idea that "this is the difference between conservatives and liberals--they're always politicizing tragedies!" not smack of politicization itself?
http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story Meanwhile, in China...
Guns aren't needed for evil.
A lot of cops are former military, but, as a child of the 50s, I have to agree with Pasta.
Almost all the male teachers I had were former military with combat service. Nobody was going to hurt us with them around.
Believe it or not, the world of the past was much worse. Violence has been in decline for thousands of years, and today we may be living in the most peaceable era in the existence of our species.
dreams: The Better Angels of Our Nature is a fantastic book with a message absolutely on point for a day like today. Thanks for mentioning it.
AReasonableMan wrote:
I would be uncomfortable sending my kid to that school. What if he goes crazy? A not unlikely scenario given the stress students can put teachers under. In your world view the only solution would be to have even more teachers armed and then maybe we should also let the students be armed, each person solely responsible for their personal safety.
This is why its called public safety. Even if the proliferation of guns increased the personal safety of individual gun owners, a dubious position at best, it unquestionable decreases public safety.
well what if ou give a cop a gun and HE goes crazy? Don't give cops guns? that's silly.
If one security guard had a gun he might have been able to deal with this guy befor he killed twenty kids.
There's nothing more pathetic than having kids huddled into a room and then just killed while they are pleading to live or cowering. An adult should have had something to protect them other than blind faith. A gun a knife a sword, something.
If you want to argue that teachers shouldn't have guns, what about security guards?
A reasonable man,
Just saw a teacher crying on camera and saying how she locked her kids in a room and told them they had to wait for the good guys. How much do you want to bet that those people would arrive with guns?
And she offered nothing but hope and prayers while they were cowering there.
What if the gunman got to that room and broke the door open. What protection would you offer those kids OTHER than the teacher using a weapon of some kind and killing the assailant before he killed her students?
DADvocate said...
If you want to make a statement, try looking at our mental health industry. Most of these shooters are certifiable nut cases in treatment. And, what were the results for that treatment? Yet, the call is usually for more mental health programs and funding.
This is partially right. I was listening to MIchael Medved as I drove home from work and he started a segment talking about the horrible things that happened in the 60s. I thought to my self, he gets it !
Nope. He talked about all the bad music and cultural rot, etc.
The thing that happened in the 60s was the emptying of the mental hospitals. Suddenly it was immoral to commit a chronic schizophrenic.
This caused our homeless problem among others. The families of these schizophrenic kids are desperate but get no help from the legislature or the legal system. Poor crazy kids have to live with their illness and some of them do stuff like this. They won't take their medicines because they have no insight into their illness. I have spent hundreds of hours talking to schizophrenics when they were medicated with thorazine or one of the newer drugs. They can remember when they were crazy, their preferred term. The problem is that, once on treatment, they often think they are cured and can stop the drug.
Then there is hell to pay.
The Colorado shooter was seeing a psychiatrist. The Oregon mall shooter gave no reason for his actions; probably another schizophrenic. The kid in Tucson, that started all the rumors about the Tea Party, had a long history of scary behavior but treatment was blocked by his mother who worked for the sheriff, who blamed the Tea Party on TV. Too bad that kid didn't come looking for her instead of Gabby Gifford.
All these young males fit the pattern of schizophrenics and this one will probably turn out to have a history of bizarre behavior if not treatment.
Even the guy in Sweden may be a well organized paranoid schizophrenic who can fool almost everyone, even if they know better.
There is a good book about the family's burdens called "My brother Ron." The author is a well educated computer programmer who has done research I haven't done and I've been interested since 1962 when there were still mental hospitals.
This shooter is 99% probability a failure of mental health policy. We have lawyers in charge of mental health.
Oh, Lord. There goes Huckabee with his "thoughts" on this.
Oh, Lord. There goes Huckabee with his "thoughts" on this.
Yep. Shut them all up.
And, harrogate, don't you know that Obama has weighed in with his "thoughts" and his "tears" as it happens?
Shut them all up.
It has nothing to do with shutting anyone up. Huckabee says, what did you expect to happen to the schools, since they kicked out God? Ignorant bile he spews.
And Obama, the coldest man to occupy the White House in my lifetime, "cries" on camera about the tragedy. Thanks a heap.
I'm equal opportunity on this.
Shut them all up.
Harrogate, that is what he said? Shameful, vile.
And as for the President commenting, it's his duty, if he shows emotion, it's questioned. The man can do no right in some people's eyes, how sad.
harrogate said...
Ignorant bile he spews.
Right up there with Captain Morgan Pier's?
Big Mike said it best....
"Whenever a tragedy happens -- not just a gun massacre but really any sort of senseless tragedy -- it is perfectly natural to want to do something, anything, so that this can never happen again.
But sometimes there is nothing you can do that will not make things worse."
and also someone else said something that we do not talk about; how stuff like this happens only in 1s or 2s and no one gets upset about it until there is something spectacular about it *and* there's large numbers(movie theatre, kindergarten class, etc)
Yeah, I'd say a lot of people cried today. That's a perfectly appropriate response, as far as most people would be concerned. Putting it on par with Huckster's comments or the gun policy spats in the name of "equal opportunity" doesn't make much sense.
There are some odd things here. The guns - a Bushmaster .223 and a Glock and a Sig Sauer - were "registered" to the mother?
Especially the Bushmaster is an odd weapon for a single mother to own. My guess is that she had bought it for her son.
Or does Connecticut have a law that rquires gun to be "registered" to individuals, and her son could not get a permit to own a gun because he was too young? Or because he was disqualified for some other reason?
Then his older brother, who lives in N.J., says he has had no contact with Adam since 2010, and has no idea about anything that might have been going on. This is not normal.
Cf. Michael K above about all these people having mental problems to start with.
DISARM THEM!
ARM THEM!
LOCK 'EM UP!
TREAT THEM!
Noise,
when quiet grief is needed.
If a grieving parent wants to cry on television or complain about godless schools or inadequate gun control laws, that's fine with me. Maybe it will give them some relief.
Our politicians get plenty of time to bask their egos in front of the cameras to show their sensitivity or social insights, but today I say they can back off these horrific school tragedies. They can shine their egos before the nation another time.
Shut them all up.
Michael K - you make good points. I worked at a community mental health center. Many of the patients that would have been institutionalized in years past suffer terribly. Two patients I worked with were murdered by other patients. One stabbed with an ice pick. The other stabbed with a pencil. Just and ordinary pencil.
We had homeless patients too. All the stuff you describe and then some.
chicklit, yeah, something like that. Whether I agree more with Morgan than with Huckabee is immaterial to it. They both come off as opporunistic, disingenuous, and insensitive.
But I don't know. maybe that's unfair too. Maybe those guys, like everyone else, are just shaken, and looking for the "right" way to respond. They just happen to have huge cameras in their faces at all times.
Deport Piers Morgan NOW.
BEIJING (Reuters) - A knife-wielding man slashed 22 children and an adult at an elementary school in central China on Friday, state media reported, the latest in a series of attacks on schoolchildren in the country.
. . .
There have been a series of attacks on schools and schoolchildren around China in recent years, some by people who have lost their jobs or felt left out of the country's economic boom.
The rash of violence has prompted public calls for more measures to protect the young in a country where many couples only have one child.
And if the President wouldn't have made a comment, he would've been criticized for that also. As I said the man can do nothing right in some people's eyes.
@harrogate: I listened to Huckabee and am not particularly offended by his remarks. Huckabee seeks a simplistic answer as to "why?" and I think what he's saying is that God's love was not present in that shooter's heart. Huckabee may want to put Gog back into schools but that doesn't necessarily mean that God will be in the hearts of the those who enter there. The guy could have just as easily shot up a church or Sunday school.
Besides harrogate, I've followed your comments here long enough to know that your animus with people like Huckabee is based also almost exclusively on one other unrelated factor. Give it a rest today.
This is pure evil. Sickness may have been a factor but to even conceptualize this crime was evil not illness.
Alex said...
Deport Piers Morgan NOW.
I'm not saying that--just that he deserves a lot of push back too.
and harrogate, thanks for your 6:43.
Dante - it's the lethality stupid. No Chinese kids actually DIED.
"Military training where you're trying to kill pretty much everyone in front of you is significantly different from public safety, where you're trying not to kill pretty much everyone in front of you"
You can't invent this level of stupid. Just freaking unbelievable.
Huckabee's a moron and God has nothing to do with this one way or another. I do have to wonder though, what has happened to society since the '60's. Prior to GCA '68 you could get a semi-automatic rifle in the mail with just a signature yet these horrorific mass shootings never happened. Now, with much stricter laws, there's a drumbeat of them. Really, everything Boomers have touched has turned to shit.
Hey assholes: the blame is immaterial. How to we work to prevent this from happening again? That is the only question that matters. There has been way too much of this in our country and we need to stop it.
On media's noticing women's susceptibility to these things, a Dilbert cartoon
Alex,
It's not as if that as the first knife attack in China:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/world/asia/13china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
I suppose we should also an cleavers.
chickelit, "Each small candle lights a corner of the dark," as they say.
Y'all be safe.
This is beyond crazy and into the far reaches of evil. Every human instinct is to be protective of small children. How many circuits must be overridden to terrorize and murder first graders....There's an urge to reduce this man's evil into some correctable phenomenon. Better treatment for schizos. Gun control. Tighter school security. Less press coverage of the shooter......Maybe there are things to do to lessen the odds, but the monsters always find a way out of the box and there are griefs beyond consolation.
I'm not an Obama fan, but I don't doubt that his emotion was true today when he spoke of the children killed.
As to the Huckabee statement, it wasn't particularly smart or well phrased but it was a bit different from harrogate's version of "what did you expect to happen to the schools, since they kicked out God?"
HUCKABEE: Ultimately, you can take away every gun in America and somebody will use a bomb. When somebody has an intent to do incredible damage, they’re going to find a way to do it… People will want to pass new laws, but unless you change people’s hearts, they’re our transition to the pastor side. This is a heart issue, it’s not something, laws don’t change this kind of thing.
NEIL CAVUTO (HOST): You know, inevitably people ask after tragedies like this, how could God let this happen?
HUCKABEE: Well, you know, it’s an interesting thing. We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we’ve systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we’ve made it a palce where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability? That we’re not just going to have to be accountable to the police, if they catch us. But one day, we will stand before a Holy God in judgment. If we don’t believe that, then we don’t fear that.
Comparing the USA to China? Wow.
Here is a really good summary of the good intentions around deinstitutionalization -- I use this to start discussion on this topic; previously when I described this for my (college) students they thought I was exaggerating: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/my-son-is-schizophrenic-the-reforms-that-i-worked-for-have-worsened-his-life/2012/10/15/87b74a98-eadd-11e1-b811-09036bcb182b_story.html?wpisrc=emailtoafriend
The worst part of being a human being in modern civilization is knowing that at any moment a monster can descend and ruin your life.
As one commenter stated "People who act emotionally when any discussion of guns occurs should not be allowed to have weapons with 30 round clips."
Alex said...
The worst part of being a human being in modern civilization is knowing that at any moment a monster can descend and ruin your life.
Seems to me that was true prior to the modern era (whatever that is.)
Humans sometimes go crazy.
Of course why do these things never happen in Switzerland?
harrogate said...
It has nothing to do with shutting anyone up. Huckabee says, what did you expect to happen to the schools, since they kicked out God? Ignorant bile he spews.
================
In a sense, Huckabee is more right than you are.
In olden times, every monster that had a disturbed mind had two slaient facts that still penetrated their mental awareness. That if they did something unspeakable, they would be executed - painfully.
And then they would be buried with official curses upon them and no sacraments of absolution, in unconsecrated soil. Ensuring they would burn in Hell and be buggered by Satan for all eternity.
Huckabee asks what happens when fear of God's wrath goes away.
It removes a check on the mentally sick doing evil. One barrier that stopped the sick is gone.
Add that they used to lock them up in institutions for the sake of public safety. Now we can only be reactive - and under our stupid Constitution and laws - must only be reactive to a monster in our midst. Not proactive. Nothing can be done until "The lawyers in the mighty courts" can "rule in all their majesty" on what to do with the monster AFTER he has killed 26 people.
Oh, he killed himself? Well, we still have to have money to pay tons of lawyers and law enforcement "heroes" to thoroughly investigate things.
Add that before HIPAA - work that someone was mentally ill and a possible danger to others was widely communicated.
Alex said...
Of course why do these things never happen in Switzerland?
They have socialized medicine and a low Gini index.
I can't stand that Obama is our president, but I thought his statement today was appropriate and his emotions genuine. He didn't cry, as some are stating, but he did have to pause several times. The gun control argument can wait for another day.
Military training where you're trying to kill pretty much everyone in front of you is significantly different from public safety, where you're trying not to kill pretty much everyone in front of you.
Clearly a person who has never had actual military training.
Even back in the Viet Nam era, when training was nothing like today's army, the point of the training was to see to it that the troops survived in an environment where other people are trying to kill them.
Palladian said...
A lot of people unconsciously love when this kind of thing happens. It's grief pornography and confirmation.
The maudlin parade is already starting you know.
dreams said...
But a better question may be, "How bad was the world in the past?"
Believe it or not, the world of the past was much worse. Violence has been in decline for thousands of years, and today we may be living in the most peaceable era in the existence of our species."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180.html
Up until the 1910's, outside of the united states, the world was an utter lawless shit hole. Most of it still is. The veneer of society, civility, and modern civilization really didn't start in the US until the 1920's. Also, everything stopped smelling like shit when electricity and modern plumbing became the norm in the 30's and 40's. Unless of course you live in NYC or San Fransisco where you can still acquire the odor of shit and piss to your hearts content.
Hey assholes: the blame is immaterial. How to we work to prevent this from happening again? That is the only question that matters. There has been way too much of this in our country and we need to stop it.
How much is there? Are more people dying from falling than these kinds of attacks? Should we ban roofs because of it?
How many people die because of obesity each year. Should we ban food because of it (oh yes, it's coming).
How many people die of lightening each year?
At present, I invoke the death by lightening rule. Don't screw with our constitution if the chance of death by lightening is less than the chance of allowed by evil right A, B, C. And then, we need strict scrutiny. That is, will screwing over our constitutional rights really have an effect? Or will people use other means, like bombs (which killed a bunch of kids in OK as I recall), saran gas, knives, or baseball bats.
Hey assholes: the blame is immaterial. How to we work to prevent this from happening again? That is the only question that matters. There has been way too much of this in our country and we need to stop it.
Did I call it at 2:54 or what?
Big Mike, No doubt.
Here are some interesting stats:
Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, Ridgway is believed to have murdered at least 71 women [and girls] (according to Ridgway, in an interview with Sheriff Reichert 2001) near Seattle and Tacoma, Washington. His court statements later reported that he had killed so many, he lost count. A majority of the murders occurred between 1982 and 1984. The victims were believed to be either prostitutes or runaways picked up along Pacific Highway South (International Blvd. 99), whom he strangled.
After more than a decade of denials, he confessed shortly before his execution to 30 homicides committed in seven states between 1974 and 1978; the true total remains unknown, and could be much higher. . . He decapitated at least 12 victims and kept some of the severed heads in his apartment for a period of time as mementos. On a few occasions he simply broke into dwellings in the dead of night and bludgeoned victims as they slept.
Then there's the 300 in OK city. Kids too. But yet, here we have it, an emotional appeal to get rid of the guns.
OK, that's over 400. How many people have been killed with firearms in these mass killing ways? And if they didn't have firearms, might they not use more powerful methods, like But that's all we are going to hear, is how we need to disarm Americans.
I realize most people thinking about the constitution think about this, but Mao got 80M, Stalin 20M, who knows how many by the Khmer Rouge.
Yes, these people are terrible, and death is too good for them. I have other ideas, that cause no physical pain, but lasting misery.
So long as evil intent stalks the Earth, good intentions and wistful hope of what should be, offer frail defense to cruel reality.
Eugene Volokh has developed an antidote to bromide intoxication over at his (eponymous) blog.
Of course it was the guns and not the mental illness + who knows what else.
No shame among progressives.
I would be uncomfortable sending my kid to that school.
Then you're a fucking lunatic. Do you NOT want teachers protecting your young?
What if he goes crazy? A not unlikely scenario given the stress students can put teachers under.
Right, because teachers go crazy all of the time.
In your world view the only solution would be to have even more teachers armed
He never said this, but I will. One teacher with a gun could have prevented this WHOLE THING.
and then maybe we should also let the students be armed, each person solely responsible for their personal safety.
Beats being completely vulnerable like the way it is now.
This is why its called public safety.
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
Even if the proliferation of guns increased the personal safety of individual gun owners, a dubious position at best, it unquestionable decreases public safety.
You have absolutely no evidence that the above is even remotely true in any way. This is just a religion that you pussy-ass leftists believe in, with complete faith, without a shred of evidence.
If our country ever is completely run by your type, then it really is completely over.
"The worst part of being a human being in modern civilization is knowing that at any moment a monster can descend and ruin your life."
Alex, please. The word modern does not belong in there.
Regarding Switzerland, I don't know whether to say 'Never' is a long, long time, or to ask, "What kind of fool comments about stuff he has no actual idea about"?
And then along comes APatheticallyUnreasonableMan and doubles down on your idiocy by providing a reason for wh
Michael K,
Here's the link to the print version of My Brother Ron. It's also available in Kindle format for a mere $1.49.
Questions …. questions. Why are there so many shootings these days? How can we protect our children?
But most of the answers that are offered seem impractical to me.
Here's what's NOT going to happen. Guns are not going to rounded up and disposed of. The second amendment is not going to disappear or be ignored. Semi-automatic weapons are not going to be outlawed.
I was young but I was politically aware and I remember the Carter administration. They were VERY big on civil rights. Absolutely bonkers about it. They decided a lot of folks were being put away merely because they were odd or eccentric and they saw that as a grievous injustice. And maybe it was in some cases. But the Carter legal machinations on their behalf put a lot of crazy folks on the street.
They went to the courts and made it practically impossible to legally institutionalize the mentally ill – until of course they commit some crime – which sometimes turns out to be murder. But not to worry – their civil rights are protected – they can't be touched unless they get on the wrong side of a cop on the beat or they slaughter a few folks.
It would be nice if the policy, instituted during the Carter administration, could be done away with but that's not going to happen either. In a thousand different ways the sentiment has become firmly embedded in the nation's legal consciousness. If any administration tried to reverse it we would see tearful special reports on MSNBC deploring the incarceration of folks merely for being odd or eccentric. Daily Kos would go crazy.
Eugene Volokh has developed an antidote to bromide intoxication over at his (eponymous) blog.
Here's the url of the Volokh article:
http://tinyurl.com/c8bcuh9
I like the idea of arming some of the folks who work at schools. But it violates a cardinal progressive anti-gun meme: Under no circumstances are guns ever good. Guns are almost ALWAYS bad. An exception, only reluctantly, is sometimes made for the police and the military. But the MSM would never allow an arming-the-teachers policy to gain the public's approval.
Of course why do these things never happen in Switzerland?
Maybe because Switzerland institutionalizes the mentally ill before they can kill a bunch of people?
How to we work to prevent this from happening again? That is the only question that matters. There has been way too much of this in our country and we need to stop it.
You're talking about abortion, right?
Thousands of beautiful children killed every year. Many more killed than by gun fire.
Don't talk about gun control unless you first demand an end to abortions.
Huckabee has just as much of a right to say whatever he wants to as does Obama.
There are simply people who will criticize each according to whom they don't like.
the gun control issue will pass by New Years Day if not Christmas unless something more heinous comes along. I can't with gun control because I see murders everyday in my area and no one protests the WH over those peoples losses
I Callahan said...
Right, because teachers go crazy all of the time.
Have you actually ever attended a school? Crazy teachers were part of the experience for most of us.
If our country ever is completely run by your type, then it really is completely over.
Did you notice the results of the last election? By your measure it's already over.
grackle,
"Why are there so many shootings these days?"
Wrong question, or at least a premature one. First we need to ask, "Is there an increase in shootings?" and then take it from there. Remember, in the year of Columbine, despite that highly-publicized atrocity, school-related homicides continued their long, slow decline.
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