There's the debate, watched in real time, and the effect it has on people's minds. CNN did a poll about that:
Forty-eight percent of voters who watched the vice presidential debate think that Rep. Paul Ryan won the showdown, according to a CNN/ORC International nationwide poll conducted right after Thursday night's faceoff. Forty-four percent say that Vice President Joe Biden was victorious....Post-debate, we get people reacting to the reactions. (If everyone's saying X won, that makes some people feel like being for X, the winner.) And we get the quotes from the transcript, analyzed. (See my previous post.) And, perhaps most important, we get the video clips, with each side using what's usable. As Peggy Noonan writes in her column about the debate:
By a 50%-41% margin, debate watchers say that Ryan rather than Biden better expressed himself.
Seven in ten said Biden was seen as spending more time attacking his opponent, and that may be a contributing factor in Ryan's 53%-43% advantage on being more likable. Ryan also had a slight advantage on being more in touch with the problems of average Americans.
Because the debate was so rich in charge and countercharge, and because it covered so much ground, both parties will be able to mine the videotape for their purposes. On the attack in Benghazi, the question that opened the debate, Mr. Biden was on the defensive and full of spin. He pivoted quickly to talking points, a move that was at once too smooth and too clumsy. He was weak on requests for added security before the consulate was overrun and the ambassador killed. "We will get to the bottom of this." Oh. Good.I look forward to more mining of the videotape. But this first one, from the RNC, is powerful. It's obvious — didn't we all think of doing this? — but they did it quickly, gave us just what we said out loud in our living rooms somebody should do, and they did it well.
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Ryan admits to wanting to privatize Social Security in front of millions of voters. I imagine that is pretty close to being a done ad. Ooops.
Watching a debate is a stupid way of deciding how to vote.
That's nice, Brother Garage. Where' s the ad?
44%, down from 47%, 3% base turned off
GOP had the ad within one hour. Smell that?
Yeah, it was too good of an opportunity to miss and RNC didn't miss it. It makes for a great visual but Dimocrats will hunker down and say this, in the words of my governor and I don't know where he got his spine from these days: "And some of their stuff was laughable,” O’Malley continued. Reciting Republican positions on tax cuts, O’Malley concluded, “I think that is laughable, and frankly I’m glad that the vice president laughed at them for that. They deserve to be laughed at — and scorned.”
laughed at and scorned! Really? Is that how you win voters?
Proposition: If your guy is winning, watching a debate is fun.
Althouse: "That debate was so annoying!"
The RNC has picked up their game a lot since 2008.
AF: I dunno. Ryan won, and I found it kind of annoying that he had to remind Biden to stop interrupting him.
Total interruptions: Biden: ~90. Ryan: 6.
Biden was laughing at all of the lies and the blizzard of bullshit coming from Ryan.
Look, Ann and the rest of the right wing would denounce ANY response to Ryan's endless stream of lies. If he said "you're lying," the flying monkeys of the right would still be screeching.
Just remember now, they're not turning the Medicare program into a voucher because the fixed check (that won't keep up with rising health care costs) won't be sent as a check! Oh, OK!
And Ryan lied when he said his Gut Medicare plan will not harm seniors.
"Rep. Paul D. Ryan claimed inaccurately that the Medicare plan he and Gov. Mitt Romney have proposed would preserve seniors’ access to the current Medicare program and would not affect current retirees."
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-fact-check-ryan-medicare-debate-20121011,0,1064609.story
Republicans are the butt of the joke, they got their asses handed to them and, so, they are steamed.
Sore losers!
Umm, if Althouse is so far in the satchel for O, why does she post all these "inconvenient truths" for him?
Unless, of course, she is some such mistress of misrule or something ...
What one of the independent PACs should do is run the same reel with the tag, "How safe do you feel with this buffoon one heartbeat away?".
AF said...
Proposition: If your guy is winning, watching a debate is fun.
Althouse: "That debate was so annoying!"
I loved watching Joe knock a few more points off the polls.
And, Ann's headline is a lie. I laugh! Biden was laughing at RYAN, not the issues!
"Biden laughing at one serious thing after another."
Ha ha! You are desperate!
Ann, just wanted to let you know that I thought your reaction to last night's debate is going to be fairly consistent with a lot of moderate and/or independent women. There is a lady that I work with that considers herself moderate and who voted for Obama in 2008. She watched the debate last night, and even though she liked what Ryan had to say, the biggest deciding factor for her was Biden’s demeanor. She thought Biden was boorish, disrespectful, and just out and out rude. Even if Biden fired up the Democratic base, it probably did little or nothing for moderates or independents, and even pushed more into the Romney-Ryan camp.
John Sager, Althouse seems to be becoming a John Bircher, er, Tea Partier (same thing).
I'm thinking form now on rather than actual content, debate victories will be determined by who is the loudest, who snorts the most, guffaws, mugs, and generally behaves like a jackass the most. With some time hopefully we can get all our politcal discourse down to the level of primate dominance behavior (screaming and poo flinging).
On laughing: The biggest laugh of the night was at Biden's expense when Ryan pointed out that sometimes people don't quite say things how they mean to say it.
Hey, K in CO:
You know what's boorish and rude? Throwing millions of seniors into poverty. Threatening a war with Iran. Raising taxes on the middle class and poor so the rich can have a tax break.
Ryan is a rude and mendacious whelp whose political career is now in flames and in a nosedive.
Alpha, I hope you are right. Thanks for the positivity.
Biden and AlphaLiberal have neither the law nor the facts on their side so they've resorted to pounding the table.
@AF: "Biden was laughing at ..."
... all the voices in his head. He looked like a sociopath.
Rather telling about those that enjoyed his behavior. Every sane person was horrified that he's a heartbeat away from being President Crazy Drunk Uncle.
Biden: name me one time where tax cuts have benefitted the economy.
Paul Ryan: Ronald Reagan, Jack Kenned-
Biden: SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU'RE JACK KENNEDY?
-a brief insight on how Biden thinks.
Yawn, I think I hear the yammering of trolls or 18 year old DNC operatives.
obama gets an extra four minutes of speaking time at his debate: MODERATOR WAS AWFUL
ryan gets interrupted 82 times by biden and 30 times by the moderator: MODERATOR WAS GOOD DERP
Problem for the Lefties is this morning, all anyone's talking about is what an ass Joe was last night.
Joe's smirks = Albert's sighs.
Net loss.
"Ha ha! You are desperate!"
Project much?
I've always believed that Biden would be a far better President than Obama. Maybe no better judgment on the issues but a far better judge of people.
That's probably still true. But last night he really looked bad.
What's also rude is for two politicians (Romney and Ryan) who have been running around for years claiming they are very conservative to suddenly in the general election season try to deceive the American people into thinking they are moderates.
That's one of their biggest lies yet. All of a sudden Paul Ryan, who cosponsored extreme abortion laws with Todd "legitimate rape" Akin, is moderate and reasonable? He is not. He is intensely conservative, even for the House Republican caucus.
Same goes for Mitt Romney, now playing "Moderate Mitt."
These lies are RUDE. No matter how Dems call their bullshit, the right wing will cry foul that their lies were questioned.
Alpha Liberal: unfailingly 180 degrees at odds with reality.
"That debate was so annoying!"
The spin today is indeed epic. Impressive though, nobody can rally around a flat tire like righties.
People: Simply saying Biden won does not make it true. At best, it was a split decision. More likely, as Biden gets hammered for lying about Libya, it turns out Ryan won.
Accept it.
I think it's rude for politicians in the pockets of polluters to relax rules that reduce pollution. Then, other people get polluted, ill, some die.
That's rude and that's Romney Ryan.
Is 'Liar!' the only word the left knows anymore?
It's really embarrassing to watch them devolve their entire argument to shouting 'Liar!' at the other side.
Biden killed Ryan because he took Ryan into the deep water, far beyond Ryan's rehearsed script and talking points.
Ryan was over his head and floundered. He showed he should be kept far away from the Oval Office.
Non-conformist blog brethren: do you think VP Biden smile and condescension was a good tactic for attracting independents?
I mean left is left, right is right and never the twain ...
@AlphaLib "These lies are RUDE"
Wha? You didn't even mention lies. Just your opinion.
What type of liars are Obama and Biden?
Obama was at the vote to suspend the Stafford Act. A week later is stands at a podium and lies that it hadn't been waved.
Biden voted for the wars. Now on national tv he lies about that.
Obvious and known facts ... lying like that isn't "RUDE". It is a sign of being pathological liars.
Alpha: Repetition is not a source for magically making wishes come true.
Democrats, keep digging!
ROMNEY 51% OBAMA 47%
Ninety-two percent (92%) of likely Florida voters say they have already made up their minds which candidate they will vote for. Romney leads 52% to 48% among these voters.
It was at best a tie libs! Deal with it!
AlphaLiberal - your comment regarding 'relaxing rules that reduce pollution' puts you directly in the Honey-Boo-Boo simpleton-brain camp. Sorry.
If you're going to try to reduce a complex topic to something so vapid then it's not even worth discussing.
Now, we know many other words. Here are some more words to describe Paul Ryan:
Cold-blooded.
Mendacious.
Smarmy.
Hypocritical.
But the fact is that Ryan and Romney are lying incredibly to the American people and it is not our job to cover up Republicant lies.
It was, for Biden, at best a tie; I've seen one poll that shows people broke Biden's way. Everything else Ryan has edged ahead on. If someone won, it was not a total domination (like Romney v Obama was.)
Learning he lied about Libya and his war votes is not going to make it more likely he's viewed as a winner.
Is 'Liar!' the only word the left knows anymore?
Oh no, they still know RAAAAACIST!!!!! It's just taking a brief rest.
Biden is well-discussed, and rightfully so, but I didn't watch the debate to see what Joe Biden was like. I watched to see what Ryan was like.
Doesn't get flustered. We don't see Ryan drawn into the bar fight. He calmly and consistently responded to questions, and increasingly refused to get talked over by Biden or the moderator.
He is good in speaking the policy points but not as good in responding to the attempts to hijack or distract. As Ann noted, Ryan had a lot of open opportunities, but didn't seem able or willing to exploit them. He's a bit more of a bulldog, I suspect, holding on and not letting go, not giving space but also not lightning fast. Just dogged and consistent.
Biden represented well the sorts of bluster and rage that, I imagine, we'd see in a lot of foreign leaders, like Ahmadinejad, who mixes feigned aggrieved indignation with bluster, emotionally asserting a reality without really even nearing sincerity or realism.
Ryan is the sort of guy who assumes that facts speak for themselves and that debates really can happen over policy disagreements. Biden doesn't care about details, he's the enforcer who will do whatever it takes to make sure his boss comes out on top. So, everything is up in the air, and while Ryan wasn't bowled over by such tactics, he wasn't able to adequately turn them aside--except for the one time he undercut the 47% talking point by mentioning Biden's tendency for misstatements. Ryan had him on the ropes there, but backed off. He could have quickly rattled off a list.
Indeed, the amount of times Biden again mentioned how buried the Middle Class is offered opportunities again and again that Ryan didn't exploit.
Ryan did what he had to do but didn't do much better than that. He withstood the sound and the fury, and really was the better representative of the kind of rhetoric the Obama campaign touted in 2008.
AlphaLiberal said...
Biden killed Ryan because he took Ryan into the deep water, far beyond Ryan's rehearsed script and talking points.
Ryan was over his head and floundered. He showed he should be kept far away from the Oval Office.
Suuuure.
If that was the case, we'd be hearing it from all the nets. Problem is, everybody gives Ryan credit for a good showing, even the ones (the very few) who say Joe won.
Kos must have come up with this one.
Or maybe DU.
"Ryan and Romney are lying incredibly"
Yes, yes, we know there are no tanks in Baghdad. The Iraqi army is winning and Americans are being routed on every front. So don't listen to that lying American media or what sounds like tanks right outside.
thank you alpha lib. I've been waiting for this.
Paddy, I think Ryan was told to just let Joe go on and hang himself. After all, Barry said he just wanted Joe to be Joe and that was the strategy for the Demos.
Turns out to have been good advice.
Raddaz was beyond awful.... She interrupted Paul 31 times, and allowed Biden to interrupt Paul 81 times...
And did nothing to hide her biased bent, posted last week that this was exactly what would happen in the debate.
These debates need two parties... So why don't the republicans warn the moderators don't even think of pulling any liberal bullshit, or they and the organization they work for will never again be allowed to monitor debate.
People complained about Lehrer, but that was lefty stupidity , Lehrer allowed Obama to talk almost five minutes more and interrupted Romney 1/ 2 times more the Obama.
And Joe Biden is seriously a sad sap., he degraded the VP deabte to imitation of Chris Matthews on steriods.
As I predicted, the low threshold of expectation for Biden leaves room for calling his "only patently lied twice" performance a win for those who already supported him. Unanimous agreement in the mixed politics office I work in though, that his smirking, laughing, and interrupting was very off-putting. No converts from the independents I know, who favored Ryan's maturity.
The primary substance that will stay in the air from this is that the administration is quite willing to continue to lie to us. Biden did it in clear unalloyed language that, although already known to be false will be the big story over the next week. The intelligence did not tell them what he claims. They refused to protect our people as they practically begged for a crumb of the State Department's resources to protect their lives. That will be the story this coming week and Biden teed it up with that big lie in front of millions.
Ryan's big win in the debate was not to get sidetracked or even reacting to Biden's egregious behavior of mock, scorn, disrespect, and anything else you can throw in and he accomplished that well.
Wow, someone activated AlphaLiberal!
And Ryan lied when he said his Gut Medicare plan will not harm seniors.
"Rep. Paul D. Ryan claimed inaccurately that the Medicare plan he and Gov. Mitt Romney have proposed would preserve seniors’ access to the current Medicare program and would not affect current retirees."
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-fact-check-ryan-medicare-debate-20121011,0,1064609.story
You're a really awful liar.
The bills passed in the House would not change Medicare for anyone over the age of 55. So unless you and Noam Levey are really stupid, be my guest to go convince a 55 year old they're a senior to support such a ridiculous claim.
edutcher, I think you're right. That's probably exactly what Ryan was told. He could have exploited it more, but by not getting drawn into it he comes out the more mature leader.
At the end of the day, Biden was the guy that sounds tough and gets into people's faces, goading others into the fight then acting all innocent about who started it.
As someone once said in another forum, he's the guy that has quirky elements but soon gets really tiresome because you get tired of defending him to all your other friends.
While Ryan, of course, is probably the one who would actually be better in a real brawl.
I wonder how many old ladies today think Biden reminds them of their ex-husband's boorish golf buddy.
"And Ryan lied when he said his Gut Medicare plan will not harm seniors."
When Republicans "lie" it is about having disagreements about the effects of differing policy decisions. How dare Ryan not be a Democrat with Democrat assumptions! He's clearly lying when he asserts a policy that is not yet enacted won't result in a way that his opponents say it will result!
When Democrats lie, however, they are saying something did not happen when it did actually happen.
As a war-gamer, there may be several victory conditions as well as the 4 options of win-win, win-lose, lose-win, lose-lose.
If Biden's goal was to lift the spirits of his troops, he did that. Did he convert anyone, win or lose any strategic positions?
Every liberal I know, who are already PRO-Obama thought Biden was GREAT, and no worse than Romney regarding his behavior.
AlphaLiberal said...
You know what's boorish and rude? Throwing millions of seniors into poverty. Threatening a war with Iran. Raising taxes on the middle class and poor so the rich can have a tax break.
It is comical you think this comment has any connection to reality.
You are a moron.
Big time.
The interruptions were untenable.
I would have been pissed at the moderator, and asked her to get in control of her debate.
Unfortunately, that would have come across weak, but isn't that the moderator's job? She failed.
Checked with my daughter who watched with her 20 something friends; reaction was they don't what the substance of the the debate was but Biden was 'CREEPY'.
alpha liberal,
I can think of three words you wrote here some time back that sum up your insight into how thoughtful and reasonable people view events and recognize lying:
'Total recall baby'
How dare you think that? has pretty much become the only thing the left has to say, as Alpha illustrates.
He assumes the outcomes of his policy preferences will prove to be good and just, and that the outcomes of the policy preferences of his opponents will prove to be evil and unfair.
Everything follows from that.
Hey, Biden was able to win 48-41 in a poll. Of California.
Maybe now Eastwood's empty chair is not entirely empty - instead, you have a smiling "Cheshire Joe" after last night's debate performance...
Jack Muller (RIP), a Chicago patrol cop, worked the 1952 Conventions, both of which were in Chicago that year. He compared the grim earnestness of the Republicans that year with the happy-go-lucky attitude of Democrats. 1952 was a clean sweep for Republicans that year. Ike had long coattails.
I would have been pissed at the moderator, and asked her to get in control of her debate.
I thought for sure she was clluding with him--egging Joe on to make those faces.
Wow, Obama's doing so poorly the Dems put alpha back on the payroll.
Desperate times, desperate measures.
Palladian said...
Wow, someone activated AlphaLiberal!
Alpha particles are just helium nuclei shorn of their elections. He'll pick up two beta particles here, recombine, and turn into a harmless gas. His voice may sound high and squeaky though.
coolkevs said...
Maybe now Eastwood's empty chair is not entirely empty - instead, you have a smiling "Cheshire Joe" after last night's debate performance...
Clint was spot on when he said that Biden was "Kind of a grin with a body behind it."
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/10/12/Flashback-Eastwood-Says-Bide-Grin-With-A-Body-Behind-It
Alpha Liberal is much funnier when he is posting as America's Politico.
Matt Taibbi nails it in his new column,
The Vice Presidential Debate: Joe Biden Was Right to Laugh
"But he should have! He was absolutely right to be doing it. We all should be doing it. That includes all of us in the media, and not just paid obnoxious-opinion-merchants like me, but so-called "objective" news reporters as well. We should all be rolling our eyes, and scoffing and saying, 'Come back when you're serious.'
The load of balls that both Romney and Ryan have been pushing out there for this whole election season is simply not intellectually serious. Most of their platform isn't even a real platform, it's a fourth-rate parlor trick designed to paper over the real agenda – cutting taxes even more for super-rich dickheads like Mitt Romney, and getting everyone else to pay the bill."
He completely nails Ryan for not having any details in the slightest for his claim he can raise $5 trillion by closing loopholes. Not ONE example! And Ryan, of all people, claimed to be bipartisan.
Good stuff. The Romney-Ryan plans are a joke and we should laugh at jokes. I think Joe's laughter was just the beginning and the Rmoney-Ryan ticket will be laughed off the stage.
ha ha ha!
'When Republicans "lie" it is about having disagreements about the effects of differing policy decisions.'
I disagree with your contention. When Republicans lie it is because they flatly misrepresent the facts.
Such as claiming that their Medicare plan is not a voucher plan. Because the checks wouldn't be mailed! That's a real howler.
Or their claim that they have a better plan on Iran. Ryan was at a complete loss to say what they'd do differently.
Or their claim that they have an economic plan, when Ryan was unable to show one loophole they would close.
Or their claim that Obama has been running around the world apologizing. That one has been fact-checked to death.
Or, their claim that Medicare would not harm seniors. Or that they are moderates.
It's a long parade of lies. So many con's are so deeply ensconced in their Fox News cocoon, they don't know better.
"The bills passed in the House would not change Medicare for anyone over the age of 55. So unless you and Noam Levey are really stupid, be my guest to go convince a 55 year old they're a senior to support such a ridiculous claim."
Bull-loney!
The Ryan plan for Medicare makes it into a voucher system for seniors. I did not say today's seniors, but those under 55. So what? It's okay to hose us? People over 55 don't care about their children?
Further, their plans for Medicare will hurt current seniors now. Their spokesmen have admitted that because repealing the Affordable Care Act will create shortfalls in Medicare and they have other plans such as raising the eligibility age, etc that will reduce benefits.
Republicans have always opposed Medicare. Then they pretend not to, as if we're stupid.
Here is proof that Republicans want to end Medicare:
Tommy Thompson bragging that he is the guy to end Medicare.
Thompson: 'Who Better Than Me... To Do Away With Medicaid and Medicare?'
The "so you think your Jack Kennedy now?" comment made me want punch fuck that denture wearer right in the face. You could see that Ryan was clearly accurate that cutting taxes works in raised revenue to the state and the denture wearer didn't even know that so he said no it doesn't. When Ryan gives him two examples, then he pulls that Jack Kennedy bullshit out. What a cocksucker.
garage mahal said...
Ryan admits to wanting to privatize Social Security in front of millions of voters. I imagine that is pretty close to being a done ad. Ooops.
Yeah, it should be abolished period. It's no longer necessary and it is nothing more than a temporary solution that became permanent as a political tool and a redistribution scheme. Fuck you and your oops, dickbag.
AlphaLiberal said...
Biden was laughing at all of the lies and the blizzard of bullshit coming from Ryan.
No moron. Biden was laughing at the lies he believes to be true and when hearing actual incontrovertible facts, he goes on his histrionics display. That's what happened and you are a sucker for it too, dipshit.
AlphaLiberal said...
Here is proof that Republicans want to end Medicare:
Tommy Thompson bragging that he is the guy to end Medicare.
Thompson: 'Who Better Than Me... To Do Away With Medicaid and Medicare?'
Clearly your selective listening skills came into effect. Doing away with medicare and medicaid as federal programs and block granting them to the states is what he said. They should be done away with on federal level. The savings from removing it from federal control to begin with would be huge, but hey, you are after all a fascist that loves government central control of everything. Carry on, douchebag.
Methadras said...
The 'so you think your Jack Kennedy now?' comment made me want punch fuck that denture wearer right in the face.
Biden exudes confidence--efferdence. Big effin' dense
It's fascinating to read the posts from the Libs stuck in their echo chamber. Hére's the bottom line: not too much of what either candidate said is going to be remembered after a few days. Even today that's all fading into the political woodwork.
But you know what is going to be remembered? Biden's weird behavior. Sit back and watch SNL make Biden the butt of their jokes tomorrow night. Then the talkshow hosts will pile on and Jon Stewart.
That's going to be the takeaway form this debate, in exactly the same way that the first Bush/Gore debate was remembered for Gore's over-the-top behavior.
You think conservatives are sore losers about this debate? No way. Right now we're loving it b/c Biden went from being a charming but stupid old man to being an angry, rude and still stupid old man.
That's victory babee.
The Vice President has two jobs: 1) be ready to take over if something happens to the President, and 2) maintain air of dignity at State Funerals. We all knew Joe couldn't handle task #1 and now it looks like a bad bet to handle task #2!
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