At the moment, detectives are sifting through the gunman's life, assembling the biography of a man who apparently had few relatives, a spotty work history and a thin criminal record. They have warned they might never learn for certain what drove him to attack total strangers in a holy place. [Teresa Carlson, FBI special agent in charge in Milwaukee] said Wednesday that investigators have not found any kind of note left by Page....It's certainly important to know whether the murders resulted from one man who cracked or whether the groups he is associated with are fomenting murder. Reading about Page, we assume the racist groups were part of his action, even if he was a crazy loner. But that's an assumption, made from a distance, and loathsome as racists are, it's important to understand the extent to which they are actively inciting murder.
"We just want to get to the bottom of what motivated him to do it," said Amardeep Singh, an executive with the New York-based Sikh Coalition. "It's important to acknowledge why they lost their lives."
८ ऑगस्ट, २०१२
"Wade Michael Page is dead, having shot himself in the head..."
"... after being wounded by police responding to the fatal shooting of six people at a Sikh temple outside Milwaukee."
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If he's a Neo-nazi racist, leftists own him, he's theirs. Both are socialists, anti-human.
Reading about Page, we assume the racist groups were part of his action, even if he was a crazy loner. But that's an assumption, made from a distance, and loathsome as racists are, it's important to understand the extent to which they are actively inciting murder.
His girlfriend left him, he lost his job, and his house was foreclosed on. Signs point to suicide by cop, extended to make him feel he was sacrificing his life for his cause. Target Choice: maybe it was just an environment both rich (meaning many race-selected targets) and pure (meaning few to no race-based non-targets). Or maybe he thought he was fighting the jihad and didn't know Sikhs aren't Muslim.
It'll be interesting to see if they produce more evidence, but I'm skeptical they will be able to. Usually the trail is picked up on immediately even if it takes a while to run down all the leads.
Another point of view:
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/08/mark-potoks-expert-anti-racist-hat-wade.html
"Or maybe he thought he was fighting the jihad and didn't know Sikhs aren't Muslim."
I'm seeing this assumption on various websites.
I kind of think that's what Amardeep Singh's statement is about: "We just want to get to the bottom of what motivated him to do it...It's important to acknowledge why they lost their lives."
It would be useful to Sikhs to know if they were targeted because of the mistaken belief that they're Muslims. Important for Muslims to know that too.
It's possible there's some specifically anti-Sikh fervor out there. That would be important to know. And if there is, what's it about? If there are people who hate Sikhs specifically, what are they thinking? What do people think about Sikhs? Is there some education that would be helpful here?
It's possible that this group was targeted out of a general hatred for immigrants or for people who don't seem to be "white."
I can understand the thought that hate is hate and whatever this was, it was part of generic hate that we should condemn, but I think specific understanding should always be valued. The victimized group in this case seems to want specificity.
Is he possessed by a demon?
Why is this never one of the options considered?
The 40-year-old Army veteran
Let's be clear. He was an F'ing alcoholic, booted from the Army 14 years ago...
Neither I nor anybody I know wants any connection to this dead a$$hole
It would be useful to Sikhs to know if they were targeted because of the mistaken belief that they're Muslims
oh, believe me the Sikh community is fully aware of this. They have been since 9/11 and from the beginning of the war against jihadic Islam, Sikhs have been confused with Muslims by idiot white supremacists.
I have a huge problem with calling white supremacists "right wing," but no problem with driving white supremacists from the public square in a fury of shaming.
Ann Althouse said...
"Or maybe he thought he was fighting the jihad and didn't know Sikhs aren't Muslim."
Sikh's are the ones who are polite, wear neat turbans and carry steel with names that include Singh (Lion) or Kaur (Lioness)
It sounds like all deeply concerned knowledge seeking by educated professionals.
They will likely mix two approaches. That answer will partly be in the DNA that structures the tubules in a mind that cause human consciousness. All is chemicals randomly gone wrong. Something went wrong in his mind.
Or the answer will be in man's wisdom that tells us persons speaking words in a voice are behind human evil.
In this guy's case he listened to the words of White Skin Power exactly like Charley Manson used to do.
One approach would say that a death was caused from two puncture wounds mysteriously appearing on the leg.
The other approach would say go find the snake.
IMO confusion of the two approaches is not the answer. We need the courage to identify the snake and warn folks about what it looks like and the poison it carries.
Let's stop using this dirtbag's name, and start mentioning this one:
I mention this because initial reports state that when Evil presented itself in his place of peace and began to slaughter those of his flock, 65-year-old Satwant Singh Kaleka did his level best to punch the ticket of the decades-younger murderer with what the Media has described as a "butter knife" -- a blunted blade, less than four inches in length.
Some Media reports indicate that there was a "trail of blood" from the spot where Satwant Singh Kaleka did his last duty as a Sikh and as a man; others do not mention it.
For myself, I choose to believe that Satwant Singh Kaleka went to his God with a smile on his lips and a bloody Kirpan in his hand.
http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2012/08/wisconsin.html
I'm seeing this assumption on various websites.
I'd say possibility rather than assumption as most I've read aren't asserting it as fact, but there is precedent. The single documented case of murder in retaliation for 9-11 was committed against a Sikh.
The victimized group in this case seems to want specificity.
I think we'd all like to know.
"We just want to get to the bottom of what motivated him to do it," said Amardeep Singh, an executive with the New York-based Sikh Coalition. "It's important to acknowledge why they lost their lives."
Sure, but this phase of the investigation should not be publicised, just kept by the investigators for future reference and perhaps shared with the families of the victims if the families really want to know. Getting exposure for their every rambling thought is precisely why many of these ideological mass murderers do what they do.
And of course the Sikhs could dump the turbans and not replace them with hoodies. Then the usual targets would be harder to find.
It's possible there's some specifically anti-Sikh fervor out there.
Oh sure there is. I think Sikhs were also targeted in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India#Punjab'>riots during Partition too</a>. The suspect in this case, however, doesn't fit into any of the usual anti-Sikh categories for perhaps obvious reasons.
Firehand said...
For myself, I choose to believe that Satwant Singh Kaleka went to his God with a smile on his lips and a bloody Kirpan in his hand.
effectively a commandment to respect the 15th century 2nd amendment and CCW
To bad he also wasn't packing an M1911A1
As I've mentioned in previous topcis, one of my teen buddies became a white supremacist and went to prison for plotting violence. He was a much more together guy than Wade Page. As far as I'm concerned they are both tragic stories, but different ones, and it's worth attempting to understand.
I am also puzzled that Page targeted Sikhs. As foreigners they wouldn't have been liked by white supremacists, but blacks, Jews and Muslims would have been higher priority targets in the white supremacist worldview.
My condolences, for what they are worth, to the Sikhs.
Apparently, according to one eye witness, he was not alone but accompanied by three other white men dressed in black-- what to make of that?
roesch/voltaire said...
Apparently, according to one eye witness, he was not alone but accompanied by three other white men dressed in black-- what to make of that?
Skepticism. I've read 30 or more articles on this and haven't seen this included anywhere.
Sikhs have a proud warrior tradition. They are required to carry a sword or dagger at all times. Many of them work in security. They tend to be good productive folks.
I know some folks who intensely dislike, maybe even hate, Sikhs. Or at least Sikhism, if not individual Sikhs.
Anyway, those folks are all Indian and Hindu.
Apparently, according to one eye witness, he was not alone but accompanied by three other white men dressed in black-- what to make of that?
Was he lying on the ground at the time? Were the other white men cops?
"To bad he also wasn't packing an M1911A1"
Some churchgoers have been doing this, with that and other firearms and calibers. Not paid security or off duty law enforcement only, rather, ordinary CPL carriers. Cf. Nigeria, Egypt, USA.
I still think the truth of this attack at the Sikh Temple is not being told and misdirection is, instead. Can't prove it. Since the KGB defeated the CIA in the 1960s/70s and continuing, there hasn't been strength in the USA to penetrate to and recount truth regarding prominent events such as this. That weakness is widely exploited, the discussion goes instantly to partisan politics with the left always winning from willingness for instantaneous, plenary ruthlessness, truth be damned and obstacles buried.
Althouse is a rare force, at least wanting to penetrate to the truth of a situation. Truth always lays about in plain view but layers of deflecting impulses must be penetrated by intellect, a tool often dirty, for the truth in plain view to come into plain view. Life is such a desperate epistemological struggle, oy. St. Francis had a point steering Brothers and Sisters away from schools, and raging when some made or attended them anyway.
I am sorry for these Sikhs. I too hope they obtain their CPLs/CWPs and use them, to include at Temple. I encourage Christians and Jews likewise. As a commenter said, when another firearm arrives and is competently deployed, the shooting stops. That's a reason for the 2nd A, and for universal firearm competency and possession. The CIA, of all agencies and people, with their history of defeat and exposure of the national welfare, should be promoting that, to redeem their performance.
Another instance of a pathetic loser trying to destroy people who are far better than him.
r/v wrote:
Apparently, according to one eye witness, he was not alone but accompanied by three other white men dressed in black-- what to make of that?
More weasel words. Typical. roesch/voltaire is trying to gin up conspiracy rumors without evidence.
More than one eyewitness says that there's a plesiosaur in Lake Tahoe -- what do you make of that, r/v?
Quaestor said...
More than one eyewitness says that there's a plesiosaur in Lake Tahoe -- what do you make of that, r/v?
Funny.
I ran a google news search and found nothing despite the fact that this would be huge news if true. So RV read this (hence his term "apparently") on some nutty leftist site and tried to pass it off here. Doesn't he claim to be a professor? I suppose it was either that or journalist, everyone else has at least some exposure to reality.
Maybe he's trying to catch on as their community organizer.
David R. Graham wrote:
If he's a Neo-nazi racist, leftists own him, he's theirs. Both are socialists, anti-human.
The debate about the true nature of Nazism, neo-nazis, skinheads, identity Christians, and good ole fashioned KKK racism will go on and on. The goal of course is to demonize by association the mainstream opposition, be it Democratic Party or the GOP. Both sides call each other Nazis (to my joy I can honest say that Conservatives are less guilty of such name calling than others) and both sides can find ways to rationalize the labeling.
Clearly the NSDAP between 1925 (Hitler’s release from prison) and mid-1934 (the purge of the Sturmabteilung) portrayed itself as both anti-capitalist and anti-Bolshevik, in other words loosely socialist with elements of nationalism, corporatism, national syndicalism, expansionism, and social progress. Except for the powerful undertone of German Romanticism, an Italian Fascist would have been totally at ease in the Nazi party of 1930. Since socialism is the foundation of the modern leftism it’s fair to say that Nazism in that period was a creature of the Left. However before 1925 and after 1934 locating Hitler and his movement within the Left/Right continuum (a simplistic construct that hasn’t made total sense since 1795) is not easy, and doing so means accepting or rationalizing many contradictions.
Hitler’s political career started in 1919 when the Reichswehr’s intelligence arm sent him to observe the meetings of a tiny band of Bavarian beer hall malcontents called the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei with a half-backed hodgepodge for a political program. They were much clearer about what they didn’t like than what they wanted: They didn’t like Jews, bosses or bankers (sound familiar?) Nor did they like the Right generally, because in Germany in 1919 that meant loyalty to the defunct Empire and the Hohenzollerns who were much too Lutheran for the good Catholics of the Munich-based DAP. They liked socialism but not socialists because that meant approving of Marx, who was a Jew and thus unlikeable. From his rhetoric it would be hard to tell a 1919 DAP member from a 2012 #OWS Twitter troll, except the German would likely be cleaner and more literate.
Hitler disobeyed his orders and instead of observing and reporting on the DAP he joined them as Party Member No. 55, later to become their leader. As Fuehrer Hitler’s first act was to change the name of the movement to the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei to clarify and define its program somewhat. Until the Beer Hall Putsch the Nazis were a revolutionary nationalist party against Versailles, against the Jews, against capitalism and against Marxism. And for what? National Socialism, that’s what! -- work, bread and German pride sums it up. That the Nazis believed state action could achieve their aims put them considerably left-of-center in the postwar German political spectrum.
The problem was by 1933 Hitler had achieved all the revolution he wanted, which was himself as head of state and government. And he would do anything to anybody to enhance his growing power, including the slaughter of his erstwhile comrades in the SA. The Nazi had little in the way of a coherent ideology, and after 1934 had even less. Hitler was the Party, Hitler’s dreams were the ideology, and Hitler’s opinions were national policy. It wasn’t Left or Right, it was Down – down as in towards Hell.
It must be a challenge for some conservatives to do more than name calling-- here is a link to an early news report from Milwaukee where a witness who was a spokesperson for the temple mentioned four people involved: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HOGQg3eSzo
Quaestor: the European details of Nazism and the Democratic history of the modern Klan aside (and Klan history is massively involuted, you don't want to get into it, because 90% of it is irrelevant to the topic) neo-Nazis like Lane (if all reports of his history are at least somewhat truthful) come from the cultural Right: hick, country, often from Scots-Irish or Cavalier stock. They're usually not urban, Northern, immigrant, Jewish, Irish or Puritanical/Quakerish.
The best way to put it, I think is that the sort of evil Americans get into is determined by their cultural markers. You've got an immigrant/Jewish/Puritanical background - if you go bad you're more likely to turn commie and worship at the bloody altar of Uncle Joe or that child-molester Mao. If you're Irish, you might become one of those pungent turds who used to fund the IRA. West-coast children of unchurched atheists turn into would-be Michel Bukunins and Emma Goldmans. Assholes of a Bible-Belt background become Christian Identity lunatics; essentially unchurched white trash go skinhead or neo-Nazi or any of a dozen flavors of bigoted idiocy.
The only real problem here is the dicks who go commie or anarchist get a pass in the bestiary of abominations.
Qaestor,
Very good analysis. I'm working my way through Shirers's Rise and Fall. Great book, wish I had read it years ago.
Just a guess on my part, but I suspect that Page's girlfriend, Misty M. Cook, who is also being reported as a white supremacist, found Page to be 'inadequate' in some way, and dumped him around the middle of June.
Since then, we've all gotten to see the attention James Holmes received after shooting up a theater that left 12 dead and 58 injured near the end of July.
My guess is that this was Page's way of showing his fellow white supremacist ex-girlfriend how gutsy and dedicated he was to their twisted cause.
I am curious, though not curious enough to find out for myself, to see what the general mood is on white supremacist message boards.
Are they celebrating, like the palestinians did on 9/11?
The Nazis embraced upper cast Hindus, Sikhs, and Iranians as Aryans. In fact there was a division of the Wehrmacht of Indian origin who fought on the Eastern front for the Germans. The Shah of Iran changed the name of Persia to Iran to emphasize the fact that Persians were Aryan. The word swastika is a Sanskrit word. The German word is das Hakenkreuz –crooked cross. Hitler and the Nazis were wrong on so many levels, it's hard to know where to start. Modern day Nazis are just as stupid.
Blond headed blued eyed Europeans are Celts, not Aryans.
I personally don't know any white supremacists. My sense is that they're mostly ex-cons, flakes, and drunks. It's a paradox that white supremacy is preached by white defectives, but there you are. I have no problem with the feds keeping an eye on such groups.... If you put such a group of losers in one spot and let them endlessly rehearse their grievances something bad is bound to happen. Can any liberal see that a similar dynamic takes place among Black Panthers, Weathermen, and OWS occupiers? But, of course, if the feds keep an eye on such groups it's fascism.
I am curious, though not curious enough to find out for myself, to see what the general mood is on white supremacist message boards.
I checked the supremacist board where I found traces of my friend -- not as a participant but in the writings of those who remembered him.
As I expected, they are not celebrating the Sikh shootings. They don't care much about Sikhs as enemies. They shooting was amateurish. The guy was an idiot and an alcoholic. They know it will blow back on them. Some blame the ex-girlfriend, who had a waitressing job a block away from the Sikh temple.
White supremacists have an undeniably warped view of the world, but they are not as stupid as generally assumed.
If white supremacists were truly supreme, as they believe they are, then why are they scratching out a loser's living?
Why aren't these supreme beings, these ubermensch, running the show? The cream naturally rises to the top, does it not? Why aren't they happily at the very top of human existence, instead of scratching out a pathetic living trading in hate and conspiracy theories in an underground culture? Because they are being held back by a cabal, a conspiracy of sub-humans? That makes no sense.
Why aren't these supreme beings, these ubermensch, running the show? The cream naturally rises to the top, does it not?
Because the devil's get are conspiring against them by hidden means, of course. Have you ever spent five minutes listening to these people? Their whole ideology is a construct designed to protect their egos from implications of their own evident failures in life. The Illuminati have rigged the game! The bankers are keeping the working farmer down! The Jews are manipulating government and the banks to cheat us out of our patrimony! The Jews are importing foreign brown people to steal our jobs and enslave us!
Etc, etc, etc. Conspiracy theory, especially racist conspiracy theory, is all about explaining why the burden of your failures fall not upon your shoulders. Don't blame you, don't blame me, blame that Jew behind yonder tree!
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