And here's Eugene Volokh on the obviousness of the First Amendment violation.
"Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values," said Rahm Emanuel, ironically demonstrating that Chicago values are not American values.
ADDED: Right now, at Drudge:
(Click image to enlarge. The small text in the upper left says: "Rahm Rejects CHICK-FIL-A: 'Not Chicago Values.'"
पोस्ट्स
८८ टिप्पण्या:
The development-related permits that are being denied are almost certainly of the sort that are ministerially granted. To deny them on account of the political speech of the applicant is transparently unlawful. Rahm won't like what happens if his opposition ever gets into political power.
From "A Man for All Seasons":
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Ann, You didn't comment on the juxtaposition of Drudge's headline, Godfather Welcomes Farrakahn, with the story about Chik-Fil-A not being welcome.
Come on, you're usually faster on the uptake than this.
"Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values," said Rahm Emanuel.
Drudge headline: Godfather(Emanuel)Welcomes Farrakhan
Welcome to the continued demise of America.
This is going on in Boston as well with Mayor 'Mumbles' Menino. Some lib must of snuck that one in to the talking points newsletter or something...
*Sigh* I wish the gay groups would just let it go, they are overplaying their hand terribly. It will all end in tears.
One must conclude that Farrakhan values are Chicago's values.
Rahm's values were stated a week or so ago to the murderous street gangs. Do not kill our children ... take it to the alley and fire away.
So it's back to eat mor cows now? Anything that saves pro gay marriage politicians?
But why get so angry at good food? The Cathy family already signaled their socially unacceptible Christian views by closing down on Sundays ever since they started in the 1980s inside malls, where that was not an easy thing to get in your lease.
The Cathys did build their family owned business with help from another source. And I expect that they will continue to place their trust in that source.
murder, bankruptcy, and corruption aren't Chik-Fil-A values?
Ah...A Man for All Seasons. I need to watch it again.
It bears mentioning that Rahm had not trouble working for the President when the President's values were not "Chicago Values." Goes to show how easily the simpletons on the left are bought off.
Rahm is mayor of a murderous city. His school system is horseshit and teachers are about to strike. And he's inserting himself into this issue. You can tie this directly to the Obama "You didn't build that." An absolute derision for business
ironically demonstrating that Chicago value are not American values.
Did you mean Chicago values
No mistakes allowed.
Isn't this kind of thing unconstitutional? It seems to me the Chick_Fil-A CEO's right to free speech is being denied. Who knows, perhaps the guy is really a homosexual. Some research suggests a lot of homophobes are:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals
Homophobes should consider a little self-reflection, suggests a new study finding those individuals who are most hostile toward gays and hold strong anti-gay views may themselves have same-sex desires, albeit undercover ones.
Some people have gone crazy about chick fil-a. They make really good chicken, who cares what the owners personal opinions are?
Oh right. Liberals care. Lord, if I cared about that I would never go to a movie.
Vote Democrat. They'll ban you from eating Chik-Fil-A.
Seems like an awful lot of fuss over crappy food.
You don't like what they stand for, don't eat there.
I don't eat there, because I think the food sucks. Freakin' McNuggets taste better than that dreck.
"Chicago Values!" LOL you really cant make this shit up
Who knows, perhaps the guy is really a homosexual. Some research suggests a lot of homophobes are:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals
Homophobes should consider a little self-reflection, suggests a new study finding those individuals who are most hostile toward gays and hold strong anti-gay views may themselves have same-sex desires, albeit undercover ones.
It's a common misconception that those who are against gay marriage are homophobic in the sense of being "hostile toward gays and hold[ing] strong anti-gay views." Do you have evidence of some kind that Mr. Cathy is hostile toward gays? Believing that our society should not redefine one of its institutions does not equate with hostility or maliciousness.
So the mayor of a failed city is agaist the 1st Amendment and obviously jobs.
I'm shocked by this.
Really. On the floor.
Stunned.
"...the obviousness of the First Amendment violation."
Yes, it hits you in the face. But that hardly guarantees that the law would provide any recourse. Note that the Chicago pol also cited a concern over parking -- a run-of-the-mill consideration in any request for a zoning variance.
The deeper problem is making the exercise of governmental discretion turn on issues of intent, which is so easy to disguise while also sending the message that anyone seeking a variance (from whatever mandate may otherwise apply) about toeing the line. Zoning is one of the worst areas for this kind of abuse -- in California, it's used regularly to extort concessions from landowners wanting to develop property. The only way to solve the problem is to make governmental decisions of this sort turn on objective factors, or alternatively let courts take the path broadly rejected in the Slaughterhouse Cases. That's not likely to happen -- it cuts against the grain of almost all admin law, and would require much more care and effort in drafting statutes than our legislators can bring to the task.
Of course, this is a problem only if you begin from the premise that the exercise of discretionary gov'tal power to achieve unrelated social goals is more problem than solution. For those like Obama (and Rahm) who take the opposite view, an application for a zoning variance is just another crisis in someone else's life or business that is too good to waste.
Just for information - I like Chik-Fil-A. I like their food (The breakfast biscuit is their best menu item, IMAO. I'm not fond of the waffle fries, however) I like their restaurants - orderly and scrupulously clean, the fresh flowers are nice. And I like their staff - attractive and smiley. (Chik-Fil-A girls are really nice, kinda like Hooters babes without the insincerity. Where do they come from, I sometimes wonder. Some remote "Island of Lost Clones" where they're selectively bred and then ruthlessly conditioned for unconditional cheerfulness?)
I do not like Louis Farrakahn. He is a despicable purveyor of everything I loathe, Islam being only the least of the loathsome propositions he peddles. Welcoming Farrakahn's help in solving Chicago's murder rampage is like welcoming Hitler to a "kick the habit" anti-tobacco seminar. He might say one or two things against smoking that are true, or at least, true-ish. But be assure he'll go on to say other things as well.
Farrakahn is a bloody-handed criminal. He was at least privy to the plot to murder Malcolm X, if not one of the chief conspirators. That such a creature is free to roam our land and speak his poison into the ears of the weak-minded and the weak-willed is a vile stain on American society.
For the last 4 years, we've been inundated with Chicago values. Note how things have changed.
And in which direction.
PS I don't know about tears, but I think gk's right about this blowing up the the queers' (hey, it's what Hatman calls them0 faces
Pointed out elsewhere:
Does Farrakahn support Gay Marriage?
No. No, he does not.
So what are the Chick-Fil-A's values Rahm is rejecting?
Clearly not its views on SSM, not without Rahm being a hypocrite. And liberals will do anything to avoid hypocrisy, right?
Right?
The breakfast biscuit is their best menu item, IMAO
My favorite too. Also they do their hashbrowns like Hardees hash rounds, so they have lots of crunch!
The Chick-Fil-A sauce for the nuggets is great, too.
Some homosexual group is reportedly organizing a "same sex kiss day" at Chik-Fil-A stores around the country. I propose an "Oops, I Spilled My 32-oz Drink All Over You" event for the same day.
Who knows, perhaps the guy is really a homosexual. Some research suggests a lot of homophobes are:
Based on this logic, perhaps the most vehement/militant homosexuals are really heterosexual.
Or, more accurately, that homosexuality isn't as inflexible a trait as some gay apologists would have you believe.
But believing that would mean elevating science over ideology, which would undermine pretty much the entire liberal cause, so we can't have that, can we?
You can tie this directly to the Obama "You didn't build that." An absolute derision for business
Good point. These are indeed the ramifications of "you didn't build that."
Obama, Rahm, Menino et al conceive government as a mother who says: "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out."
You need an independent film crew go from sex shop to sex shop in the Boy's Town section of Chicago. And then go to a few straight porn shops. Now, I am a libertarian and don't give a shit about these shops. But, that would display the hypocrisy in visuals. And visuals are ALWAYS more powerful than the written word.
It's a common misconception that those who are against gay marriage are homophobic in the sense of being "hostile toward gays and hold[ing] strong anti-gay views."
I think there was mention of the guy having other anti-gay views. But that really wasn't the point at all. As you suggest, some will consider the CEO homophobic for his anti-gay marriage stance (one I hold myself, incidentally).
Here is the thing I was trying to get to, probably not very well:
The CEO is being denied his right to free speech, by not being treated equally under the law for his values. Leftists think that is good, because the guy has evil views towards homosexuals. But wait, those who have evil views towards homosexuals may be homosexual themselves. Instead of leftists thinking "Hey, maybe homosexuals are violent", they think instead "Oh, society is repressing homosexuals, and so they become homophobes."
Ironically, then, the state may be suppressing a homosexual, who is repressed by society, and so is a homophobe.
In other words, the state is suppressing the very same kind of person they are purportedly defending. It's the irony of that idea I find appealing.
That's all.
If "Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values", why do I keep finding .45 ACP fragments in my Spicy Chicken Cool Wrap?
There's a Chick Fil A College football Bowl game every year. Are pc colleges going to boycott?
Where's Andy? Hope we didn't hurt his feelings.
Yeah, but like so much else pre-2009, those views are no longer operative.
Based on this logic, perhaps the most vehement/militant homosexuals are really heterosexual.
It's not logic, it's a study, which is based on fact. No one knows why, they can only guess.
I personally believe homosexuality is a natural condition, and once decided, not much can be done about it. I don't mind it in women, so long as they are hot, but it's disgusting to think of it in men (judging from porno flicks, a lot of people agree with me).
But that's OK, the president's talk about "you didn't build that," disgusted me too. I can deal with that, so long as someone isn't trying to take away my chik-Fil-A.
It's probably just a way to get us to forget the President's communist leanings.
"Quaestor said...
Some homosexual group is reportedly organizing a "same sex kiss day" at Chik-Fil-A stores around the country."
Because the world is a cruel place, "same sex kiss day" will not involve Hollywood-style lesbians kissing.
echoing Nick--where is Andy? he's off his game which involves trying to get the first post on the thread. And this topic seems tailor-made for him.
NB: I have never eaten at a Chick fil A. No political statement; I have been trying to cut out fast food from my diet. When I do succumb to temptation, I head to Popeye's.
Good luck finding falafel or kebabs if this new trend in licensing catches on.
Got breakfast at Chik-Fil-A this morning. As usual, and even before this recent hullabaloo; the drive through was completely around the building. I'm not saying they are the best food, as no fast food is really great. But I did notice the BK next door didn't have a wait.
So go ahead Chicago and Boston. Pretend like the US holds the same value as you do. It's not hard to boycott cities either. Particularly one with a high homicide rate as Chicago.
It will all end in tears.
And after the tears, a perfectly breaded, delicious, juicy chicken patty on a lightly buttered, toasted bun, washed down with real lemonade made on the premises. Mmmmmmm....
Dante, now I see your rather nuanced and amusing point. It's like an onion! We need a nice earnest leftist in here to have a think about the ramifications of denying rights to a gay person fooling himself into being a Christianist.
Paul Zrimsek wrote:
If "Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values", why do I keep finding .50 ACP fragments in my Spicy Chicken Cool Wrap?
I notice you deleted your first version and substituted an amended version. There was no need. There really is such a pistol calibre as .50 ACP. It's AKA the Action Express. BTW, it a round for guys with more money than brains. A gun built to fire that freak is too big to carry or conceal. The recoil is monstrous, and the gun's MSRP is monstrous as well. Ownership of such a weapon is a "my gun is big than your guy" pissing contest. Jeez... talk about closeted homosexulaity... this fits right in.
Illinois doesn't allow gay marriage.
Chicago is in Illinois.
Shouldn't the city, if it cares, focus efforts on their state government, instead of a sandwich shop?
If Tiny Dancer does succeed in roadblocking Chik-Fil-A in Chicago, doesn't the owner have a fairly arguable First Amendment civil rights case to make against the City?
James Lileks' take on Chick-Fil-A:
And then I spied it.
Chick-fil-A.
Never had one. I’d heard good things. Well, let’s try one, then. I should note that I never get pickles on anything, because I still have the ancient childhood prejudice against pickles. I’ve been working my way through the adult condiment group gradually; had the big mustard revelation when I was in my early 20s, got deeply into mayo a few years back, made a fool of myself over onions in my early 30s, but pickles – well, there didn’t seem to be a need for them, and they seemed like they’d run the show. But the Chick-Fil-A Story, as described in the store’s mission statement, said that the pickles were an integral part of the experience, and I’d never heard anyone make that claim. It wasn’t just the presence of pickles; it was the number, and the number shall be two. One shall be not enough, and three is right off. Two is the number of the pickles. Amen.
So I had it with pickles.
I took my seat by the shite-scraper show and removed the sandwich from its foil. It felt warm and gentle. It was like holding a lamb’s soul in your hands. I took a bite.
I’ve never quite had this experience before. On one side of the brain, total pleasure. On the other side of the brain, a simultaneous desire to become a franchisee. It was the most delicious piece of fast-food I’d ever had, and I say that knowing well that 67% of my email headers tomorrow will read “Chick-Fil-A” and everyone will agree. No, I didn’t have the waffle fries. A man has to have something to live for.
Quaestor: you can follow the legal discussion and intense parsing on volokh.com. Last I looked over 300 comments.
What does Farrakhan think about teh gays? As bad as Chick-Fil-A, worse, or better?
Chick Fil A College football Bowl game every year. Are pc colleges going to boycott?
I'm boycotting 'til they call it just the Peach Bowl again.
"ndspinelli said...
Where's Andy? Hope we didn't hurt his feelings." And avoids gay posts that point to the hypocrisy of the left like they were vaginas.
Some social scholar will need to write a history on how views on gays which even 5 years ago would get you branded as tolerant (e.g. "well, they have a right to their lives, and shouldn't face housing or job discrimination, but marriage is for raising a family") is now viewed as an opinion worthy of a Storm Trooper troglodyte.
Ya think it in the intervening few years we made some major scientific discovery about the nature of homosexuality that rendered what came before moot? Naaah!
It's all about controlling the discourse. But it would still make a great social history.
For those of you who aren't fluent in Chicago."Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values," means, "we didn't get paid enough". A few more dollars in the alderman's pocket and they'll be able to build a strip club next to a grade school.
Chik-fil-A finds its owner operators and employees primarily from references by other Southern Baptists of their known to be socially well adjusted, creative and hard working youth, who amazingly respect their elders.
Think of Tim Tebow's friends and family personally running a chain of restaurants.
Full disclosure: I have known the Cathys, father and sons, since 1988and what you see is what you get.
They took over sponsor ship of the local LPGA event (which is an adjunct of lesbian culture) to keep it going, and they ran it well. Then a better advertising opportunity arose in being a sponsor to re-name the Peach Bowl in Atlanta.
That was so successful that they signed on to sponsor the Kick-off Classsic games at the Georgia Dome too.
I expect that they will also be involved in any bid for the soon coming NCAA playoff system games to include Atlanta which is located at the heart of the SEC football.
Andy is also from Atlanta and I imagine that he is in a serious quandry right today: does he still condemn chickin sanwiches in public, while eating them in secret like most Chik-fil-Aphobics likely do.
There really is such a pistol calibre as .50 ACP.
Yeah, I found that when I was belatedly checking my work-- but for "Chicago values" you need a round you can use in a Thompson SMG.
The Chick-fil-A thing makes Rahm look weak--like somebody out in Hollywood is pulling his strings.
He's probably really seething over this.
traditionalguy said...
Andy is also from Atlanta and I imagine that he is in a serious quandry right today: does he still condemn chickin sanwiches in public, while eating them in secret like most Chik-fil-Aphobics likely do.
I think Andy is more of a hot dog guy.
We're not talking about the same thing, are we?
Even the Boston Globe - the equivalent of a wet kiss to his administration - is calling out Mumbles on this.
That mush-mouthed moron's walkback is going to be delicious.
I only wish CFA were closer to me. There's only one in Massachusetts, and from my house it's a good 45 minutes to get there. But maybe this Saturday. Hey, if it can impress Lileks. . .
The Chick-fil-A thing makes Rahm look weak.
He is weak. Rahm's local nickname is "Tiny Dancer" which is reference to his puppet-like status -- a total hack who glided into office on well "greased" wheels, if you take my meaning. Chicago is a doomed city in a doomed state. Wisconsin and Indiana do and will continue to benefit.
Remember Carrie Prejean? Forced out as Miss California because she offended Perez Hilton by supporting traditional marriage.
It's like this. Rahmbo isn't talking about teh gay marriage thing, that's just for yucks in the press.
The problem is that he and the alderman asked for a taste and the Cathy family thought they wanted a chicken sandwich with a pickle on it. If the Cathy family and their operatives watched more of The Sopranos they would have know that Rahmbo & Co wanted kick-backs.
This blatant ignorance of how the game is played in Chicago is the lack of values that Tiny Dancer meant.
Farrakhan on gay marriage:
"Males coming to males with lust in their hearts as they should to a female," is a "sin according to the standard of God."
As far as his outlook on gays, it sounds like he'd fit right in at Chick-Fil-A. Wonder what the difference is then?
This whole deal is Orwellian.
Once again, I find myself in the uncomfortable position of supporting a cause, yet finding other's support of the same cause to be utterly reprehensible. Somehow, this always seems to happen when it comes to gay marriage.
One must conclude that Farrakhan values are Chicago's values.
But it can't be since he is WAY more anti-gay marriage than Chic-Fil-A.
Wonder what the difference is then?
The difference is that Farrakhan as a (unfortunately) free citizen of this country, may go anywhere he likes, regardless of his views on gay marriage.
Chik-Fil-A, however, is a business serving and employing people of all sexual persuasions. Boston and Chicago are telling them, however, that even though they do not discriminate in their service, their owners do not have the right to hold a certain belief even though that belief affects in no way the running of the company, the quality of its product or the availability of its service.
If CFA is kept out of Boston and Chicago simply because their owners hold different views than Emanuel and Menino - views which they have an absolute right to have, guaranteed by the Constitution - then we are not a free people. It is as simple as that.
Please tell me you understand such a basic concept.
The time has come to include a "gay marriage"question with each yearly business license renewal application. Those against can be shut down, or required to have some sort of symbol in their shop window identifying them as "homophobes". Maybe a big gold star, or something.
Lyssa,
That was a big part of the reason I decided to oppose gay marriage. Something worth doing is worth doing honorably, honestly, and above-board.
In my experience, anything conceived and achieved in dishonesty can only bear rotten fruit.
If someone refuses to restrict themselves to logic and persuasion to make their case, then can you really trust their motivations at all?
I say, no.
Chik-Fil-A, however, is a business serving and employing people of all sexual persuasions. Boston and Chicago are telling them, however, that even though they do not discriminate in their service, their owners do not have the right to hold a certain belief even though that belief affects in no way the running of the company, the quality of its product or the availability of its service.
If CFA is kept out of Boston and Chicago simply because their owners hold different views than Emanuel and Menino - views which they have an absolute right to have, guaranteed by the Constitution - then we are not a free people. It is as simple as that.
This is exactly right. I am gay, but man do I love some Chik-Fil-A. Who cares what its owners think? (For that matter, who cares what the owners think about anything? How is that newsworthy?)
I never heard of Chik-Fil-A until they were added to the DNC’s enemies list but my understanding is that they make something called a “peach milk shake” and that one will be opening in my area in 2013.
FWIW, there's already a CFA in Chicago. On the North Side. And from some posters (anecdotal to be sure), it does a brisk business.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/chick-fil-a-chicago
Thank you, Justin. I happen to despise the Ben & Jerry's political stance, so I don't eat their ice cream (Shaw Farm ice cream in Dracut, MA is much better, IMO). And if I'm offered it, I politely refuse.
But I'm not about to force their stores out of business.
What Emanuel and Menino are proposing is thoughtcrime. It astonishes me that people actually don't see this.
The employees at Chik-Fil-A are the best. Great nice kids busting it to provide service and a good product. Great attitudes. I suspect that it is the Christian component of the company that really drives the progressives wild with hatred. Closed on Sundays. Could they make a lot, lot!, more money that extra day? You bet they could. Do they think it more important that all of their employees get that day off to worship. Yep. Actual values backed up by actual behavior. The very thing that sends the left over the edge. This is a no-nuance company and decent people acknowledge and applaud them for it.
"Justin said...
This is exactly right. I am gay, but man do I love some Chik-Fil-A. Who cares what its owners think"
Well, for starters...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-e3WOs9i_b_Q/Txuy-MI5aWI/AAAAAAAACBc/p75j1K4ENgE/s1600/6739841193_9aa90e0d5f.jpg
And after the tears, a perfectly breaded, delicious, juicy chicken patty on a lightly buttered, toasted bun, washed down with real lemonade made on the premises. Mmmmmmm....
Don't forget the extra pickles.
Thorley Winston: The peach milkshake is seasonal. Currently on offer but will disappear in a few weeks. Which reminds me: I should go get one.
You will love the restaurant. I recommend the spicy chicken sandwich along with a side salad. Throw away the bread and put the bird on the greens. Awesome.
The difference is that Farrakhan as a (unfortunately) free citizen of this country, may go anywhere he likes, regardless of his views on gay marriage....Chik-Fil-A, however, is a business
Please tell me you understand such a basic concept.
Whoaaa, there Mr. Excitable. I think we're both criticizing this hypocrisy. My point being, that anti-gay Louis Farrakhan just opened a restaurant in Chicago and was welcomed by Rahm, yet Chick-fil-A, with the same disapprove-of-yet-tolerate stance, is being attacked. And again I ask, why the difference? Islam is more acceptable than Christianity? Blacks owners are more acceptable than white?
Is that now drawn out clearly enough for even YOU to understand?
Have to agree w/ Calypso on this one. And of course Rahm Emmanuel is an effing little tyrant.
I recommend the spicy chicken sandwich along with a side salad.
The fruit cup is actually really good too. Actually, it's better than most non fast food restaurants fruit options.
What's surprising is how difficult it is to find the actual quote that set this off. Perhaps that's because the quote doesn't actually use the word "gay" or "homosexual," and ultimately has nothing at all negative to say about gays?
What's offered is positive support for "the traditional family." There's no support for alternatives, but also no condemnation.
Why does the press have so much difficulty providing the actual quote, or linking to the actual interview?
See for yourself:
http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=38271
(Some have opposed the company's support of the traditional family. "Well, guilty as charged," said Cathy when asked about the company's position.
"We are very much supportive of the family -- the biblical definition of the family unit. We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God thanks for that.
"We operate as a family business ... our restaurants are typically led by families; some are single. We want to do anything we possibly can to strengthen families. We are very much committed to that," Cathy emphasized.)
"...not Chicago values..."
Like Playboy Enterprises that recently closed its Chicago HQ?
How about all businesses owned by devout Muslims are not welcome because they want to kill gays and believe in female mutilation. Oh, wait, that's different. That would be Islamaphobic.
Clearly, Rahm is Chritianiaphobic.
My point being that Farrakhan just opened a restaurant. . .
Ah, I see. I had thought you were comparing Farrakhan's views on gay marriage as a person to CFA's owners views and bringing them up short. I don't visit Drudge, so assumed Rahm was just pandering to his natural constituency, welcoming Farrakhan on a visit. Apologies.
ps - if you think that post was excitable, you must be one mellow dude. . .
Just a few blocks from the proposed CFA is Boston sits a halal meat shop. When will some enterprising reporter stop in to ask about how the owner feels about homosexuals generally and gay marriage specifically?
Heck, why even stop at restaurants? Let's start interviewing Paki cab drivers to see how they think.
What I think is funny is that if you have the same view on gay marriage that Obama had when he was elected, now you’re an enemy of humanity or something.
And, as has probably been mentioned elsewhere on your blog, if you have the same view on gay marriage that Darth Cheney did in 2000 you're an enlightened progressive.
I've been trying to avoid fast food in general for health and financial reasons, but now that it's in the news it's going to be hard to resist stopping in for a peach milk shake.
Gk1 wrote:
*Sigh* I wish the gay groups would just let it go, they are overplaying their hand terribly. It will all end in tears.
I'm not in favor of gay marriage, but am in favor of a civil union that gives gays protections of marriage. Simply because marriage means one thing and it's like telling me that 2+2 should equal 3+3 or I'm a bigot for not acquiescing.
I can see both sides and see civil unions as the ideal compromise. But with gays promoting gay marriage there is simply no agreeing to disagree. It's either, you are with them or you are their enemy out to kill all gays, and the worst nazis you could imagine.
Really tiresome. This current incarnation of political correctness making its way into policy is actually making me rethink my support of civil unions.
in response to all the murders in chicago, why isn't the media calling for more gun control laws, like they do after the aurora shootings. oh yeah, because they have strict laws in chicago and they don't work. never mind.
Nathan wrote:
If someone refuses to restrict themselves to logic and persuasion to make their case, then can you really trust their motivations at all?
exactly! This is why I keep getting into arguments with proponents of gay marriage who argue as an absolute that society can't discriminate when it comes to marriage, or impose its values, by bringing up things like incest and bestiality and polygamy. Im simply testing their fealty to the logic of their argument. Inevitably they get mad at me and call me a bigot, but in fact the fault is with their argument.
They are not trying to persuade, but instead are trying to force their will, which is why they say society "can't" define marriage in a way that excludes gays as opposed to society "SHOULDN'T" define marriage in a way that excludes gays.
CAN'T and SHOULDN'T are two entirely different propositions. If its the latter, it's a respected position, and one you can debate, and even possibly agree with. CAN'T however is an attempt to force one to agree or face the price of disagreeing with the the politically correct opinion. And of course, usually the same people doing this are also the ones saying "you can't legislate morality". So in addition to being an attempt at bullying it's also completely hypocritical.
Hah. When I'm right, I'm right. "Mumbles" Menino, whose latest bon mot is "The people of this city elected me for my thought process,*" is now walking back his Chik-Fil-A threat, bleating that, just as CFA has their opinion, he was only expressing his opinion when he sent that letter to CFA headquarters. Nope, sez Tommy, I wasn't threatening you at all, I was just, you know, expressing my free speech.
It would be lovely if CFA told this clown to shove it. I hope they do.
*anyone who can get on-line should listen to the Howie Carr afternoon show on WRKO, who despises Menino and has tagged him with the nickname "Mumbles," playing the Mayor-For-Life's gaffes whenever he can. Menino makes Obama sound like Demosthenes.
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