“Our purpose has never been to hold the attorney general in contempt,” Mr. Issa said. “Our purpose has always been to get the information the committee needs to complete its work — that it is not only entitled to, but obligated to do.”...ADDED: So what happens if he is voted in contempt?
“I treat assertions of executive privilege very seriously, and I believe they should be used only sparingly,” said Representative Elijah E. Cummings of Maryland, the panel's ranking Democrat. “In this case, it seems clear that the administration was forced into this position by the committee’s unreasonable insistence on pressing forward with contempt despite the attorney general’s good faith offer.”
२० जून, २०१२
House Oversight Committee votes to recommend holding Holder in contempt.
It was 23-to-17, along party lines.
याची सदस्यत्व घ्या:
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
१९२ टिप्पण्या:
'good faith offer'... to borrow,
Issa: Turn them over or tomorrow we will hold you in contempt of congress.
Holder: I'll let you peek at them if you will agree before you ever see them to stop the investigation after you have seen them.
Issa: I think we are done here. We're voting on the contempt charge tomorrow.
Holder (direct quote to the media): “The ball’s in their court. We made what we thought was an extraordinary offer.”
Predictable.
And, were the media to do its job and actually cover this story, instead of enabling the cover-up by ignoring it, we the people might actually hold the Executive Branch accountable to the laws.
But we all know how that plays out, and why.
How can the administration be forced into the position?
Isn't that another way of saying you made me do it?
Although, at some point, one would presume, if we weren't living in Bizarre-o-world, the contempt charge itself would force the media to do the job it so desperately doesn't want to do.
Eric Holder has essentially responded. "A dog ate my homework!"
And Obama is backing it up. ARGH!!!
Do you think Congress can/will actually do anything about it? Congress looks pretty damn impotent these days.
But then again, I can't figure out what the media is afraid of.
It's not like the 53% of American voters who voted for Obama are likely to give a shit.
After all, the media could report Obama asked the Russians to lay off until after the elections, or that the unemployment rate has been steadily inching up, or that American households lost 40% of net wealth over the last four years, or that the president could unilaterally waive off enforcing immigration laws, and it would have practically no discernible effect on the president's poll numbers.
Why should they fear reporting the Administration ran an illegal program to deliver guns to warring drug cartels in Mexico that, collaterally, killed two American agents have any effect on the president's re-election chances?
what did the president know and when did he know it?
The Democrats will be obliged to defend their opposition to an action which is far more appropriate than their pursuit of Rove and Harriet Miers, which concerned a totally legal action to dismiss US attorneys who serve at the president's pleasure.
They should know what is political.
I think every Republican running for Congress this fall will use this.
I wonder if there is anything this president could do, beside changing his registration to Republican, that would cause his supporters to abandon him?
Who knew that affirmative-action totems were so important?
I never knew Darrell Issa was accused of stealing cars, as well as being suspected of committing arson.
Vet Darrell Issa!
I'm seeing option 3 there as the most likely; lawsuit and the court decides if the EP invocation stands up.
Leslyn: Does it matter how many times EP is/was invoked by whom?
Sometimes it might well be right to do so, as the Court pointed out in Nixon. Sometimes it might be wrong or invalid, as also in Nixon.
What matters is... whether it's valid in this case or not, not "The Previous President did it more!"
(That said, I don't see how this is going to work out well for the President; for an EP claim to stand a challenge in court he'll have to claim either that specific documents being revealed would imperil the ability of his AG to advise him*, or that there's a significant national security implication**.
* Which would implicate the President in the fiasco, so I doubt he'd want to go there.
[Contra others, I don't think this invocation implicates him now, as back to Eisenhower we find it asserted for Executive Branch members talking to each-other, without the President's involvement.]
** Which would be better explained by a national security claim than straight EP - plus would be easily countered by Congress saying "Fine, we'll let only Congressmen with clearances look", because Congress gets oversight even on national security issues.)
Safekeeping: that's Obama 1, and Dubya...how many, again? I get confused trying to add up the ones in one month plus the ones he spread around. And the ones that were like secondary claims. I never was much good at higher math.
Oh, great. Must be "new math." Two wrongs DO make a right.
Our gov needs to be much more transparent. Unless something is a military or foreign affairs secret, everything should be open. All communications (with some national security exceptions) by the gov (including executive, judicial, and legislative branches) should be recorded and available to the public. This would cut way down on the corruption and criminality by the feds.
Obviously even the msm (i.e. dem propagandists) will now be forced to cover Fast and Furious. Obama is an idiot if he doesn't get rid of Holder.
The idea that the GOP should only attack Obama on the economy and not attack his other vulnerabilities makes no sense. What motivates voters varies from voter to voter, there is no one single approach that will be optimal for each voter.
MSLSD: "The President stands up to Congress."
"Eric Holder has essentially responded. "A dog ate my homework!"
And Obama is backing it up. ARGH!!!"
I got your back, Eric. I ate the dog."
What happens if he's held in contempt? Nothing. Obama and Holder will just defy congress unless and until they pay a political price for it. Justice at that level is strictly a political word.
Original Mike, LOL!
If it goes option two, the US Attorney for D.C. will be in charge of the prosecution. That's this guy:
I'd better not put a title in the link
Judges throw citizens in jail for contempt all the time. They act as judge, jury, executioner. Off to jail!
It's so common you wouldn't believe it.
In fact you might argue that unelected people (judges) are far more inclined than elected officials to use force. That's the sort of argument that Hitler and Mussolini made about Churchill and Roosevelt. Democracies are weak and unwilling to fight.
Are we?
In 1935, what the Congress did when there was contempt of Congress by the executive branch was to throw the fucker in jail.
But wait!
If you splice Romney's comments about Wawa out of order, it makes him look like an out-of-touch doofus.
That's waaaaay more important than the US AG refusing to discuss an illegal gunrunning-to-druglords plan that got Americans killed.
Plus, did you know Romney hates the 99%?
It's true!
Racists. Every one of 'em.
Rabel said...
If it goes option two, the US Attorney for D.C. will be in charge of the prosecution. That's this guy:
When I click on your link I get a little "Waiting for www.justice.gov..." on my browser's status bar.
And I wait. And I wait...
X said...
"what did the president know and when did he know it?"
Good questions. If the requested docs just make Holder look bad, the obvious play would be to throw him under the bus and move on. Why would Obama drag this out unnecessarily when it is embarrassing and hurting his campaign? Maybe it is because he was aware of the Fast and Furious program before it blew up in the media.
Howe soon before Obama says "When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."?
Obama is the Adult in the Room, finally putting his foot down telling the Tea Party crybabies that their temper tantrums and silly conspiracy theories are over.
Thank you, Mr President.
Option four is to send Holder a pair of these:
He's still got some hops
I can't believe those balless wonder Democrats in the House! That the Asshole in Chief has them so snowed that they vote to allow him to get away with not responding to a subpoena by invoking EP.
Note to House Democrats: The separation of powers exists for a reason. You do not let the Executive --- ANY Executive --- tell you what you can and cannot see. You make the laws & pay the bills. Protect your prerogatives! That's the whole point of the system!
Holder is already under the bus. The paperwork implicates the President in an embarrassing, but not criminal way. Likewise Holder.
The President's bet was that he could cow the Republicans. Certainly a long shot, but not out of the question. Not a stupid bet necessarily, but certainly a desperate one.
Holder will take a major hit. The President will shamelessly blame him, and take a minor hit, but a hit that puts him one step closer to defeat in November.
The President will let this play for a week--two at the tops.
Holder goes under the bus before Boehner calls a vote on contempt, but not by much.
And for a second time the DoJ has issued a "retraction" (why didn't Scooter think of doing that?) regarding a lie they told. Fuck "comtempt," how about "perjury?"
And now Obama uses the bazooka. Sounds very much like there's something extremely damaging they don't want out. Perhaps something that was, you know, going on "under the radar."
: that's Obama 1, and Dubya...how many, again?
About half as many as Clinton.
"When I click on your link I get a little "Waiting for www.justice.gov..." on my browser's status bar."
Wish I could help you Daddy Binx because "justice delayed is justice denied."
Really, I don't get it.
The argument seems to be that "Tea Party Crybabies" or maybe just the Republicans, who knows, at first is was the gun rights people, are fussing over nothing at all.
And because this is so much nothing at all, the proper response is to refuse to cooperate?
Promise transparency in government and then refuse to cooperate in an investigation that is over nothing much, about nothing much, and will reveal nothing much *because* it's nothing much.
If, and I do say IF, the gun walker thing had any use or utility as a method to track where guns go and who has them, it was destroyed when the Obama administration decided and promised to push for gun control legislation in response to US guns in Mexico.
What do they call that? A self goal?
In any case, the *utility* of the program is not threatened by the investigation which is no longer in the least bit covert.
So give congress what they have the right, for any piddling stupid reason they decide they want them, to request.
I was never completely comfortable with Bush's use of executive privilege, but at least he had the excuse of national security. What executive branch power is Obama protecting from Congressional usurpation here?
Unless someone comes foward with the goods (or leaks it) not much is going to happen.
Under republicans, my impression is that someone is always willing to come forward and blow the whistle.
No such luck under democratic administrations.. they always keep their people in line.
Except for the Monica Clinton affair.. I cant remember any democrat rating their own people.
BOO HOO. Recall Holder. Recall Santa. I didn't get my way. I didn't get what I want. Throw a temper tantrum.
Didn't we learn anything from Wisconsin?
Shouldn't we be holding Congress in contempt for their inability to create a job?
The dog ate my homework then Obama ate the dog = no contempt charges for Holder yay!!!
But what about the dog? Do you think those papers still exist or are they in some great paper shredder in the sky?
Congress gonna blink. Holder gets kicked out after the election. President becomes more monarchical. Ain't no thing. America always wanted a king....
Lem is right about the Dems. They are uncomfortably solid when it comes to protecting their own.
Has anyone investigated Holder's pet situation? If he had a dog, what flavor dog was it, and when did he have it?
Sorry: shoulda been What flavor was Holder's dog, and when did Obama "have" it?
I go back to the Valerie Plame charade and all the Lefties who couldn't wait to see "Karl Rove frog-marched out of the White House in cuffs".
garage mahal said...
Obama is the Adult in the Room, finally putting his foot down telling the Tea Party crybabies that their temper tantrums and silly conspiracy theories are over.
No, he's a weasel who wanted to deprive Americans of their right to own and carry firearms and tried to do it through unlawful means and is in the process of getting caught.
Congress lawfully requested documents which "my people" had originally agreed to surrender, but has gone back on his word.
Get the facts.
BOO HOO. Recall Holder. Recall Santa. I didn't get my way. I didn't get what I want. Throw a temper tantrum.
Projection - Bell&Howell has all kinds of competition.
PS "my people" can't be recalled. He wasn't elected.
His best bud, however, can.
But it's going to be more fun whipping his ass in November.
No, he's a weasel who wanted to deprive Americans of their right to own and carry firearms and tried to do it through unlawful means and is in the process of getting caught.
There really is no conspiracy theory too stupid for conservatives, is there? The question always is: dumb or evil?
There aren't enough gun murders in the U.S. already they could have just pointed to?
"There really is no conspiracy theory too stupid for conservatives, is there?"
Remember the outrage over the failure to "connect the dots" leading up to 9/11/01? Now you want to bitch about dot-connecting? I actually believed that Obama's "under the radar" remark wasn't referring to F&F, but now he's pulled EP. When the dots have numbers, only fools or liars fail to connect them.
"There aren't enough gun murders in the U.S. already they could have just pointed to?"
You'd think so, right?
But why wouldn't they bring up the guns in Mexico? That's frosting on the cake. Frosting is yummy.
No, I don't think this was a plan plotted with malice beforehand, though I know that some people do. I think it was opportunism that turned around and bit them in the butt.
I also think that what is being hidden is communications about the opportunism after the fact.
In any case, the anti-gun plans, opportunistic or not, are toast.
That doesn't excuse a domestic agency in the US shipping guns into the hands of Mexican cartels without the knowledge or cooperation of the Mexican government. And it doesn't excuse the obstruction of a Congressional investigation.
"The question always is: dumb or evil?"
Both?
There aren't enough gun murders in the U.S. already they could have just pointed to?
I guess you missed the media hysterics over all those guns Mexican drug gangs were supposedly buying from Texas gun dealers.
If it's all innocent, why the stonewalling?
I assume that Holder. OBama, and those who support this action are pretending that there is justification for this.
What would a theoretical, valid reason be for not releasing the information at this point?
Now you want to bitch about dot-connecting?
It's not dot connecting. It's Trutherism.
"It's not dot connecting. It's Trutherism."
Just like actual science is Holocaust denial.
Face it, GM. You fucked up. You trusted them.
I know you think I have what you are looking for, but I don't have it, never did, it doesn't exist.
So whatever you, do don't look in this file. It's not there. That much I can tell you. I can't show it to you, because, well, I don't want to, but trust me it's empty not a thing in there to hide.
Let's see. So far, the responses to this, as trotted out by stalwart partisan workhorses 'Garage Mahal' and 'Leslyn', are:
1. This is much ado about nothing.
2. Anyway, your guys did it first!!
3. Buuuuuussssshhhh!!!!!!
4. It was good [insert Democrat here] did [whatever we'd excoriate a Republican for]!
Did I miss any?
This is more like connect the dolts.
Face it, GM. You fucked up. You trusted them
I don't trust any politician. The theory that this was some sort of elaborate master plan to take away guns from Americans is la la land dumb though.
There really is no conspiracy theory too stupid for conservatives, is there?
Yawn. Go back to entertaining us with the story about how "Bush Lied!!!! about WMD!!!"
Or the story about how Bush's daddy pulled strings to get him in the TANG.
Or any of the hundreds of other nutjob theories the left masturbated to while Bush was in office.
In contrast to the lefty conspiracy theories, we know that something bad happened in F+F. We don't know how high the blame goes, and Holder and Obama are determined that we not find out. But that government fucked up and people died as a result is not open to debate.
Independent counsel.
Special prosecutor.
The former for
1) MF Global scam and John Corzine
2) Fast and Furious, two US citizens dead and hundreds of Mexican citizens dead.
3) Numerous highly classified leaks from the Obama administration.
Opening soon in Washington, DC with plenty of precedent.
The irony of garage's "this is no big deal" schtick is that Obama himself claims otherwise.
The papers in question have to be both (a) important and (b) related to communication between Obama and Holder, in order for Obama to claim executive privilege. :)
Personally, I think it would be interesting if Congress opted for option 1, and jailed Holder. I'm not sure if it would be politically counterproductive or not.
I don't trust any politician. The theory that this was some sort of elaborate master plan to take away guns from Americans is la la land dumb though.
So... how do you explain what happened in a way that doesn't require an even dumber interpretation?
I think this is great. Whatever is in those files is likely to not be much worse than the way the most transparent administration in history is acting. It's a great thing for the GOP to have these guy acting like criminals in front of everyone. Whatever the real story is, the media would drop it very quickly. This will keep it up front till the election.
I'm convinced GM must be a fake.
There are times when he seems genuinely reasonable. And then there are times like this where he just crows 'I don't give a shit because he's on my side rah rah rah!'
The theory that this was some sort of elaborate master plan to take away guns from Americans is la la land dumb though
And on what facts do you base the theory that "the theory that this was some sort of elaborate master plan to take away guns from Americans is la la land dumb".
Is it the "fact" that the Democratic Party is renowned for its devotion to Americans Second Amendment rights?
Independent counsel.
Special prosecutor.
I hope not. The constitution provides Congress with the tools it needs to deal with this.
Garage,
Obama obviously is hiding something or he would just release the docs that demonstrate this is much ado about nothing. Invoking executive privilege is rare and should be done only to preserve national security, not to avoid political embarrassment (ala Bill Clinton).
Cummings is so full of it. He's actually disfavorable to executive privilege when Republicans assert it. For Democrats it's ok.
Whatever the real story is, the media would drop it very quickly. This will keep it up front till the election.
Yep. Whatever the truth is, the Republicans are timing it just about perfectly to do maximum damage to Obama's reelection campaign. Obama is playing along, too, which makes me think there really is something pretty embarrassing at the bottom of all this.
We don't know what they are hiding or what the real story is, but I'm sure that however they handle it, it will be an another epic demonstration of incompetence. Let's watch.
So... how do you explain what happened in a way that doesn't require an even dumber interpretation?
The ATF gunwalking operation started in 2006?
We don't know what they are hiding or what the real story is, but I'm sure that however they handle it, it will be an another epic demonstration of incompetence. Let's watch.
Way ahead of you. The popcorn is already ordered.
The ATF gunwalking operation started in 2006?
And when did the part where they watched the guns actually disappear happen?
I was gambling on the druglords
I took a little risk
Sent lawyers, guns and money
Bam, get me out of this
garage mahal said...
No, he's a weasel who wanted to deprive Americans of their right to own and carry firearms and tried to do it through unlawful means and is in the process of getting caught.
There really is no conspiracy theory too stupid for conservatives, is there? The question always is: dumb or evil?
The Lefties have gone on record on this one - garage does below.
Why would Zero bring fire down on himself when he could just throw "my people" under the bus?
Letting this thing drag on in an election year is dumb.
There aren't enough gun murders in the U.S. already they could have just pointed to?
Crime is down according to the feds, mostly because more people are packing.
The states that are most vehemently anti-CCW are the ones with the worst murder rates.
Been to Chi-Town lately?
Watergate PALES in comparison to Fast & Furious..
Somebody give the bad news to the cover-up Dem's here..
Everybody says that it was the cover-up that brought down Nixon..
This failure to turn over documents smells of a cover-up.
Bara-ck and Cover-up.
The ATF gunwalking operation started in 2006?
I see garage has been brushing up on his talking points. :)
Hmm, looks like a job for the Independent Counsel... oh wait...
Garage...Try an analogy and see if you can understand what happened.
The Operation Wide Reciever tried under Bush failed. But it was similar to a weakened live virus vaccine being tested on a small control group and failing and then shut down.
Then Obama's LaLa Land Gang of UN Internationalists concieved of a way to pretend it was more of the same, but it became similar to a mass immunisation using the most virulent strain of the virus and all along intended to be a total failure... except that the mass deaths could be be blamed on the American virus manufacturers who would then be closed down for killimng innocent Mexicans.
Terry's death was not intended at all, but it blew the cover story and stopped the Cabal short of success.
That is what must be hidden.
If Holder says that it is nothing but human error, then he would simply fire/promote a man or two and endure a mild embarrassment.
The way he is going to the mat proves that he is protecting the higher ups from a exposure of their true motives.
If you chose not to believe their is any such sly manipulation endemic to UN and Marxist revolutionary circles, then that choice is very naive.
Alberto Gonzales was harassed by the press and democrat lawmakers because he exercised his right to fire subordinate and maybe even insubordinate lawyers on his staff. Special counsel threats and the whole nine yards were tossed about for what seems like daily and forever.
It all seems so tame now, when compared to Fast and Furious and the deliberate lying by General Holder to Issa's committee.
So, this is the Administration's "logic":
Holder: I'll let you review the documents, but that's it.
Obama: No one can see the documents - they're protected by Executive Privilege.
So, the president says the documents Holder was willing to show can't be seen, because they're special.
So, who's right?
Obama? If so, his AG doesn't appreciate the import of the documents related to Fast & Furious, i.e., the AG is incompetent and was willing to show documents he never had reason or authority to share with Congress.
Holder? If so, it seems his was a gambit - that a quick, cursory review, but no transfer of possession to the Issa committee - would satisfy the political problem while making it difficult, if not impossible, for the Issa committee to find (let alone keep and distribute) incriminating evidence.
Regardless, Obama has raised the stakes. Whether this was necessary (to cover up a crime) or not (gettin' pissy with the House Reps), time will tell.
I still don't think it registers with the 53% who voted for Obama. That kind of stupidity makes one immune to abuses of power.
I have not understood what there was about "Fast & Furious" that could possibly be worth the stonewalling the Justice Department already put up, and raising the ante by claiming Executive Privilege is absolutely beyond me. There has to be something else here than just some screw-up shenanigans by low-level ATF agents.
There is not time left in this administration to find out what and get the situation resolved, but we sure are going to have an interesting campaign season ahead!
"Alberto Gonzales was harassed by the press and democrat lawmakers because he exercised his right to fire subordinate and maybe even insubordinate lawyers on his staff. Special counsel threats and the whole nine yards were tossed about for what seems like daily and forever."
Yeah, but he was a Republican.
He was totally asking for it.
Fast & Furious?
That was an illegal gunrunning program run by Democrats for warring drug cartels in Mexico that killed dozens, including two US agents.
EVERYONE knows being a Republican is MUCH worse than a couple of anti-gun Democrats getting many dozens of people killed to prove - - wait for it - - drug lords warring with each other kill with firearms.
Yawn
If you chose not to believe their is any such sly manipulation endemic to UN and Marxist revolutionary circles, then that choice is very naive.
Ya'll have lost it. Whatever it was that you had to begin with, that is. But for once you can accurately blame Obama.
garage mahal said...
No, he's a weasel who wanted to deprive Americans of their right to own and carry firearms and tried to do it through unlawful means and is in the process of getting caught.
There really is no conspiracy theory too stupid for conservatives, is there? The question always is: dumb or evil?
There aren't enough gun murders in the U.S. already they could have just pointed to
Let's walk this back and see if you can find a reason. Unlike "gun runner" no attempt was made to track these weapons. Not the FBI, not the DEA and not the BATFE. The only reason we know that these were the guns that were at the crime scenes is that the gun dealers, in order to cover thier asses, kept record of the serial numbers EVEN WHEN THEY WERE TOLD NOT TO BY THE BATF.
You tell me. Why in the world would our own government dump THOUSANDS of undocumented firearms accross to boarder into Mexico?
Take your time.
I'll wait here.
Why is taking it to the courts considered bad? Let it go to the Supreme Court! Let the press explain the 200 Mexicans Obama killed! Let the the press try to explain why this makes the Republicans evil!
Lets say I knew something about how F&F went down that's maybe criminal..
Should I be entertaining Isa's immunity trial balloons?
Or would Isa be crossing some ethical line.. by doing that.
I seem to remember democrat chairmen, over the years, doing something akin to that.
Why is taking it to the courts considered bad? Let it go to the Supreme Court! Let the press explain the 200 Mexicans Obama killed! Let the the press try to explain why this makes the Republicans evil!
Eh... who is going to take it through the courts when the AG wants the whole thing to go away? Does anyone have standing besides the family of the agent who was killed?
"Let it go to the Supreme Court! Let the press explain the 200 Mexicans Obama killed! Let the the press try to explain why this makes the Republicans evil!"
Ah, the grandeur of it all. Soon this story shall be more than a boutique GOP fascination, but rather a BIG STORY on everyone's mind. You'll see. You'll ALLLLLLL see. bwahahahahahahaha.
"Why in the world would our own government dump THOUSANDS of undocumented firearms accross to boarder into Mexico?"
Especially when Mexico is drowning in narco violence. Wonder what the Mexican news media and pols are saying about Fast and Furious.
Offer blanket immunity.. paper immunities..
I understand there are different types of immunities.
I'm having an immunity block right now.
Wonder what the Mexican news media and pols are saying about Fast and Furious.
The Mexican Media here is saying that Obama is some kind of wonderful for granting hundreds of thousands of illegals blank immunity...
You know.. the timing of the announcement, to let in the illegals, and the heating up of Fast and Furious sure makes one wonder.
Anybody connecting these dots?
"Soon this story shall be more than a boutique GOP fascination, but rather a BIG STORY on everyone's mind. You'll see. You'll ALLLLLLL see. bwahahahahahahaha"
Just looked at Google news (because their story choice is automated) and Fast and Furious is their number one headline story.
Did Hispanics vote for Obama big time in 08?
Lem said...
Watergate PALES in comparison to Fast & Furious..
Watergate was more sound than fury, but F&F, while quite serious, is nothing compared to the motivations behind it.
harrogate said...
Let it go to the Supreme Court! Let the press explain the 200 Mexicans Obama killed! Let the the press try to explain why this makes the Republicans evil!
Ah, the grandeur of it all. Soon this story shall be more than a boutique GOP fascination, but rather a BIG STORY on everyone's mind. You'll see. You'll ALLLLLLL see. bwahahahahahahaha.
Jason's a little overwrought, granted, but why are all the Lefties here so afraid of an investigation if Zero and "my people" did nothing wrong?
Maybe because some people think that's exactly the problem.
PS For those who think this is a Conservative-only thing, they might want to Google CBS reporter Sharyl Atkisson with F&F.
She's been covering the story for quite a while.
"Just looked at Google news (because their story choice is automated) and Fast and Furious is their number one headline story."
Yes. That'll last.
garage mahal said...
BOO HOO. Recall Holder. Recall Santa. I didn't get my way. I didn't get what I want. Throw a temper tantrum.
Didn't we learn anything from Wisconsin?
Shouldn't we be holding Congress in contempt for their inability to create a job?
I know you treasure your status here as 'Resident Troll' but seriously you're trying way too hard to live down to your repudation.
The problem with garage is that he refuses to examine corruption and criminality on his own side or even admit that it might exist!
He's a typical Post-Modernist Progressive: Lying and Criminality are Okay as long as Our Side is In Power and We Get to Do It.
That's why I don't waste my time arguing with him.
Mark Levin
As the Supreme Court recognized in US v. Nixon, the Executive Branch has a legitimate interest in confidentiality of communications among high officials so that the President can have the benefit of candid advice. However, as President Washington himself recognized, that privilege does not protect the President or his underlings from embarrassment or public exposure for questionable actions.
harrogate said...
Just looked at Google news (because their story choice is automated) and Fast and Furious is their number one headline story.
Yes. That'll last.
It will.
When President Uhhh invoked Executive Privilege, he insured a showdown with Congress.
Now he can't turn it off and neither can the media.
He's a typical Post-Modernist Progressive: Lying and Criminality are Okay as long as Our Side is In Power and We Get to Do It.
Hahahahaha. Instead of Truther theories, you should at least start proving where lying and criminality occurred.
Fast and Furious began
in the ATF Phoenix Field Division in October 2009
Have it at.
"Soon this story shall be more than a boutique GOP fascination"
Even if Issa dropped it (which he clearly will not; if nothing else he wants an explanantion for why Holder lied to his committee), the Terry and Zapata families will have their day in court. I suspect that will turn out to be much uglier than the current proceedings, since it can't be conveniently dismissed as a political witch hunt. Those families will be much more sympathetic characters than Issa. And they're even more determined to get answers.
garage has got more important things to worry about.
Like Scott Walker's secret routers.
"Yes. That'll last."
It obviously won't. Just like Hurricane Katrina.
Don't worry, Barack, surely this is just an undigested bit of arugula or a blot of mustard.
Although there are two US graves and no gravy here, it's probably nothing.
"at least start proving where lying and criminality occurred."
We know for a fact that Holder lied TWICE to the committee. A second "retraction" of a statement he made to the committee (also known as a lie) just came out (that Mukasey knew about it; he even apologized to Mukasey for having said it).
You can keep throwing the Truther charge around, and you can insist this is all much ado about nothing, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
I saw Elijah Cummings give a commencement speech at Goucher College. He did a good job - did not seem like a far left librul Dem unlike Gary Trudeau who also spoke.
It is disappointing to see the party line vote- not one Dem could take a stand for a murdered border agent and against a plainly idiotic ATF program that someone must have seen in a movie. The American people are tired of lousy govt that fails in critical situations like 911, F&F, election ballot debacles yet no one gets fired. Hell, that CIA asswipe George tenet, who guaranteed WMD would be found in Iraq, got a medal from GW. WTF is wrong with this picture?
That's a good Executive Privilege article by Levin up there @ 9:18
Chairman Issa should file suit in federal court in DC and seek expedited action. There is no need for Senate action. The use of this procedure has been acknowledged by the Congressional Research Service in a 2007 study. Further, a privilege log should be sought by Issa and ordered produced immediately by the court, in camera inspection done promptly by the judge, and a final order entered compelling production of all documents for which no legitimate reason justifies Executive Privilege.
We know for a fact that Holder lied TWICE to the committee.
What did he lie about?
Waco just passed my wandering little mind.
Is it a culture of lawlessness thing?
Nobody went to prison over Wako.. none that I recall.
"What did he lie about?"
Did you really not read past that sentence? Go back and read the whole comment. The other lie was last year when he said that DoJ knew nothing of F&F.
And how do I know they were lies? Because they issued "retractions" in both cases (i.e., they admitted they were not truthful, but only once they were caught).
Steve said...
"Just looked at Google news (because their story choice is automated) and Fast and Furious is their number one headline story."
harrogate said,
"Yes. That'll last."
Haha, the point is you called it a boutique story when it is actually the number one story on google news. You would have shown more character and class if you had just admitted that you were wrong.
Maybe you could explain why you are OK with flooding Mexico with firearms that were used to kill hundreds of Mexicans? Maybe you could also explain why the administration explicitly tried to make it difficult to trace those guns back to Fast and Furious?
Of course, it is entirely possible that Holder himself is a F&F Truther. As absurd as that sounds, it is the only explanation that squares with your position.
The other lie was last year when he said that DoJ knew nothing of F&F.
I'm trying to follow along. The DOJ obviously became aware of F&F at some point. I've seen nothing that Holder or anyone at the DOJ approved or signed off on gunwalking tactics. 22 witnesses were interviewed by the Committee and none of stated otherwise.
I'm trying to follow along.
Its hard to follow because DOJ is refusing to hand over the documents.. which the oversight committee is constitutionally duly entitled to.
From lefty leaning wikipedia:
"2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious
On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced."
Deputy AG Ogden reported directly to Holder.
June 20th - Fox News:
"The family of an Immigration and Customs agent slain in Mexico has filed a $25 million wrongful death claim against the U.S. government."
-----Under republicans, my impression is that someone is always willing to come forward and blow the whistle.
No such luck under democratic administrations.. they always keep their people in line.
------
No, that's not true here. There are some very in the know whistle blowers.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/22/issa-warns-atf-not-to-retaliate-against-whistleblowers/
Oh, and you libs who want to make light of this. Could you for once keep in mind the reality that a couple HUNDRED mexican citizens have died as a result of this "operation"? That an American Border Patrol Officer was killed with weapons unleashed by Holder's BATF?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-fast-furious-20110920,0,5544168.story
U.S. officials also kept mum as other weapons linked to Fast and Furious turned up at dozens of additional Mexican crime scenes, with an unconfirmed toll of at least 150 people killed or wounded.
Read more:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/09/issa_confirms_200_mexicans_killed_by_fast_and_furious_weapons.html#ixzz1yOXH3JPP
http://investmentwatchblog.com/slain-border-patrol-agents-family-files-lawsuit-in-fast-furious-scandal/#.T-KUdZErbxE
Garbage sez ----The theory that this was some sort of elaborate master plan to take away guns from Americans is la la land dumb though.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is President Dreams of Somebody's Father... as quoted by a gun control leader.....
Anti-gun activist Sarah Brady claims President Barack Obama is committed to stealth gun control according to a report in The Washington Post.
Recounting a March 30 meeting between Brady, her husband Jim and White House Press secretary Jay Carney, The Post reports:
During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, “to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda,” she said.
“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”
http://www.examiner.com/article/sarah-brady-claims-obama-pushing-under-the-radar-gun-control
Even Nixon didn't work this far under the Radar.
Thanks for the Daily Caller info.. (Its good to know Issa is not flying blind.. nor is he on a fishing expedition.. which btw I thought it was way back when this thing broke)
However you might want to make use of this web page for your links in the future... its cleaner.
Some Althousians (like me) like to keep things tidy.
To tell you the truth I haven't been paying much attention to this thing.. I knew it was there but, I don't know.
Everything Obama does is either worthy of praise or one is not worthy of him as president.
So I've become much despondent.. haven't been to a tea party meeting in moths.
The Walker victory gave me something to cheer about, finally.
Thank you Wisconsin Democrats.
We know for a fact that Holder lied TWICE to the committee.
What did he lie about?
1. He lied about when he was told about it.
2. He told Congress that Bush's AG knew about it.
Seems he could get these basic facts correct when testifying under oath.
garage mahal said...
We know for a fact that Holder lied TWICE to the committee.
What did he lie about?
According to Sharyl Atkisson of CBS, about when he was briefed on it, for one.
Give it up, garage. This one's not going away and it's not gonna be spun.
Seems he could get these basic facts correct when testifying under oath.
Usually these know enough to evade giving an answer they don't want to give.. by saying I will find out and get back to you.. or some polite evasion.
Not Holder.
Holder chose to contemptuously lie.
Granted, it's every bit as likely that Obama was giving Sarah Brady a line of bull shit. After all, what else does "I'm really on your side, but it's a secret" sound like to you?
OTOH, no reason not to take him at his word.
Notice how the CNN web article peppers the story with the "party line" vote..
As if that was the story..
When in truth.. it should make the democrats look very bad.. here they are constitutionally duty bound to "oversight" to serve as a check on the executive and they are acting more like the tree blind monkeys.
Why would Obama drag this out unnecessarily when it is embarrassing and hurting his campaign? Maybe it is because he was aware of the Fast and Furious program before it blew up in the media.
My guess it that it will turn out to have been Obama's idea all along. It fits a pattern where as long as constituents aren't getting turned into hamburger by collateral damage (say, Pakistanis, Afghans, Yemenis, etc.) then what's the real political risk here?
It also fits the image of the Imperial President, making the world right by ruthlessness and cunning.
If true, Obama dasn't throw Holder under the bus now, because if he does Holder finds himself holding Obama's nuts as collateral. This will be drawn out as far as it can be drawn.
My guess it that it will turn out to have been Obama's idea all along.
It fits with the 'leaked' profile of Obama, personally, choosing drone targets.
Since his economics is shit, prop himself up as a commander in chief.
Cowboy Obama.. its .. I was going to say blowing up on his face but the professor would like us to keep our metaphors to a bare minimum..
oh.. and Obama is our president and we don't want things .. you know.. not even figuratively.
Sooo.. no Woodward book telling us the juicy bits of F&F?
Basically.. ladies and gents.
Holder is Obama's firewall.
The idea that F&F was Obamas idea makes alot, a lot of sense.
Wait a minute..
All this time Obama and Holder have not found a fall guy?
Nobody willing to fall on his sword for the One?
What a shame ;)
No colonel North.. No admiral Poindexter?
What kind of commander in chief?
lol
Thats why when the chance to get Bin Laden finally came.. I forget the name of the general.. but the story goes that Obama was covered on the chance that something went wrong?
I found the story.
Now.. at the time that didn't seem to make sense.. why would Obama be so risk averse dealing with Americas Enemy #1?
But if you put F&F as a backdrop.. it makes a lot of sense.
So now we have the highly classified national security leaks coming from the administration.. as if timed to distract from Fast & Furious.
I love it when puzzles start coming into view.
Obamas weakness has always been his inexperience.. His inexperience would show big bold face on Fast and Furious.. his reelection is riding on people not finding out.
The press is not going to cover it.. but maybe the alternative press can.. si se puede!
If it was Obamas idea.. it be pretty hard to find a fall guy.
Oh man. Obamas goose is so toast.
Should he have to return his Nobel Prize?
Maybe somebody should ask --wait for it-- The Donald.
lol.
Its so fitting that Big Papy hit a grand salamy tonight.
Lets take another look at that game again.. I'll prob fall asleep watching it.
We blew up the Marlins 15 to 5.. or something like that.
The Fast and Furious Fuckup.
Branch Davidian Compound...85 people died, more than 20 of them children, and 2 pregnant women.
President Bill Clinton. A democrat. Attorney General Janet Reno. Eric Holder, Deputy Attorney General.
Ruby Ridge...3 dead, 2 wounded. Those dead include a young boy, and a mother assasinated while doing nothing more than holding her child. Shot in the head because there was a shoot to kill order on site.
Same government people.
Fast and Furious. 200-300 maybe more Mexican Nationals. 1 Border Patrol Agent. Maybe another LEO, it's being "looked into" by Eric Holders DoJ
President Barry Soetoro, Democrat. Attorney General Eric Holder.
Literally millions of unborn children. Millions.
Democrats...the party of death.
Democrats. Showing Nazis how to do it right.
Democrats. Never met a pregnant woman that they couldn't improve.
Democrats. Cheating on your spouse is a bennie.
Democrats. Cheating on your taxes even better than cheating on your spouses.
Democrats. Saving a Kennedeys career by allowing women to drown.
Give me time, I'll come up with a good one
Democrats. Defending cop killers since Mumia.
Democrats. For Trayvon, and all the children that lookike Obamas son. If he had one. That was doing lean, choom, and assaulting people a lot smaller than they are.
Hold him in contempt, then indict him, then make it the feather on Urkel's defeat so that he can be removed from office, which will make human clusterfucks like Rachel Maddow can openly weep and continue making insulting comments that conservatives are some how brain dead, face-eating zombies, that are hard-wired to be utterly and completely stupid. Yes, let's see that happen
Democrats. Because democracy died when Walker won re-election.
I like that one...and the taxes one.
Democrats. We shit on police cars so you don't have too.
Democrats. Because a mind is a terrible thing.
Democrats. Obama is great because shut up.
Democrats. Better dressed than the Klan.(oohhh. I likey this one)
Democrats. Because spending all your money isn't enough, we're gonna take your childrens money too.(to long)
Democrats. Because the government runs on unicorns and fairy dust.
(maybee)
Democrats. Because freedom scares us.
Democrats. The junk drawer in the house of politics.
Democrats. Because feeling good is whats important.
Democrats. because sodapop is killing the Earth.
Democrats. Preaching AWS while flying over flyover country.
Democrats. Because we know whats best for you.
I honestly don't get the liberal/ Dem perspective on this-- like garage, leslyn, and harrogate scoffing here.
If there's nothing to this, yawn, then why has Holder been stonewalling over the documents? If there's nothing to this, yawn, why has Obama now invoked executive privilege to back up Holder, personally involving himself as POTUS, leaving himself open to inevitable Nixon comparisons... and forcing the MSM to cover this as a big fucking deal? If there's nothing to this, why not just release the documents for the sake of clarification?
Even if there's no conspiracy and this is just a "botched" operation, it's an operation that has resulted in hundreds of deaths-- does such a botched operation not bear investigation and an assignment of responsibility?
If there's nothing to this, how is Obama's dramatic action to be explained?
There's only one way I see, implausible though it seems, that might explain this if there's nothing to F&F (and/or nothing embarrassing in the subsequent political cover-up), yawn. And that is: Obama is playing some grand political kabuki theater. The precedent would be his refusal to release his birth certificate-- stonewall and stonewall, then release it with great fanfare to ridicule the birthers (like Trump). In this case, the point of the kabuki would be to further his campaign narrative of heroic Obama vs. mean nasty racist partisan Congress, and serve to distract from the abominable economy (and Romney's attacks on that front)... and perhaps other growing scandals, like national security leaks. So is this just another campaign stunt?
But so many things explode this analogy: this is a serious congressional investigation; this is an operation that has resulted in hundreds of deaths with no tangible benefit whatsoever; Obama has invoked executive privilege-- a very weighty move; Holder has already been caught in at least two lies (or falsehoods now "retracted"), etc. The grieving families of at least one dead agent (and hundreds of others) transcend political game-playing. It would be a desperate (and egregious) political gamble, and a scandal for a POTUS to use executive privilege for the sake of a political game. But if O believed that the MSM was on his side and would spin spin spin for him…
Like I said, I find this explanation implausible (though at this point almost nothing from Obama would surprise me-- except competence). But is that how people like garage and harrogate account for the events unfolding before us?
By the way, I don't think Obama can count on the MSM covering his ass in this case. They'll spin for him, sure, some will spin a lot, but they're also sharks who smell blood in the water. The "Watergate" bell has a Pavlovian effect, even if the POTUS is Obama. To put it more nicely, some of them (I hope) still have a microscopic smidge of journalistic integrity... or as Woodward-and-Bernstein fanboys, would want to look like they do.
And I don't think the "witch hunt" meme is convincing political spin in this case.
Generously arming Mexican gangs with untraceable weapons and hundreds dead as a result is not the same thing as, oh, getting BJs from an intern.
Might want to consider an "Obama is not like Nixon" tag. How is Obama not like Nixon? Unlike Nixon, Obama is in a party of enablers who are perfectly willing to allow his shit to continue.
Republicans abandoned Nixon when it became obvious he had committed some crimes and participated in a cover-up.
Will Democrats abandon Obama? I see no sign of it.
Bill Clinton committed perjury, a felony, and obstruction of justice, another felony. Ignored by left. "It's just sex."
Hard to dismiss all these dead people. And yet liberals dismiss it. Not interested. Don't care. Obama is our king and our king can do no wrong. He is above the law.
"So what happens if he is voted in contempt?"
It just means politics is catching up with reality, as Holder is thoroughly contemptible.
I don't remember any first term scandals in my lifetime. Nixon had his scandal in the second term. Reagan had a scandal in the second term. Clinton had a scandal in the second term.
Obama is a first term scandal guy. I think that raises a couple of points.
One, Obama is too partisan. He makes enemies right away. For instance, the party-line vote on Obamacare. Not a single Republican on board. When has that happened?
This sort of attitude creates enemies. I totally get it. When you think you're right, and your opponents are wrong, you're going to have enemies. And sometimes you should have enemies. (Lincoln had enemies!)
But it divides people. It becomes us vs. them. Obama has no friends across the aisle, none. (You can't say that about Reagan or FDR).
Presidents have a lot of power. And they're human, which means they're going to screw up. And Fast and the Furious is an obvious screw up. Which is a problem when you've created a bunch of enemies on the other side.
Point #2: Why do we have we have second term scandals? I think it's because Presidents are lame ducks, and they know they won't face the voters again. First term Presidents are on their best behavior because they don't want to be fired.
Obama thinks he's been on his best behavior already. "Tell Putin that I'll have more flexibility after the election."
This is mind-blowing for right-wingers. Obama is on his best behavior now! We won't see bad Obama until his second term! He's literally saving his horrible shit for after 2012. This makes my head spin around.
Top this off with a complicit media that did not treat a genuine scandal like a scandal. People had not heard about Fast and Furious. They didn't know what was going on. This simultaneously made Obama feel complacent while it infuriates the right. I mean, Fast and Furious is clearly a screw-up, a fuck-up, a stupid and idiotic move by the Obama Administration that gave automatic weapons to drug dealers. And the media doesn't think that's a story?
So if you are wondering how we got into a situation where the Attorney General is facing a contempt of Congress charge and there is a pathetic, last minute "privilege" claim to (obviously) attempt to avoid this fate, this happened because Obama is arrogant, Obama is divisive, Obama has no friends on the other side, and Obama does not take people who disagree with him at all seriously. So this crap piles up. And now Obama has a genuine scandal right before the people vote whether to keep him in office or not.
Another thing that's odd about Obama is that Presidents typically remove incompetent people from their administration. If you screw up, you're blamed for your mistake and you're gone.
What's weird is that Obama has not done this. A competent politician would have had a quiet discussion with Holder and he would have announced his resignation without any fanfare. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, all these guys have lots of resignations under them.
It releases tension. It releases steam. Let the other side have a scalp. Take blame, fire somebody, move on.
Obama did not do that. So the issue has not moved on. Apparently the Obama theory is "we make no mistakes and nobody has to resign, ever."
This is mind-blowing for right-wingers. Obama is on his best behavior now! We won't see bad Obama until his second term! He's literally saving his horrible shit for after 2012. This makes my head spin around.
My feeling exactly.
Even if he loses, my stomach sinks a little when I think of what he might do as a lame duck.
This is a case of homicide at the extreme. Or negligent homicide/criminal indifference, at the very least. The Left/Democrats were conducting a long con during the early 2000s. Remember when the Mexican presidents would speak here and always throw out the same lines about 90% of the violent crimes in Mexico involve the use of guns from the US? Then the Dems would go around saying the same thing, even though the experts said it was hogwash. US weapons are too expensive for the Mexican market and there is a constant flood of cheap weapons coming in from Africa--South America---Central America. Sometimes new top line European weapons from African soldiers. Obama, Axelrod and Emanuel took an existing program that tried to monitor gun movement and perverted it by actually sending fully automatic weapons to Mexican drug gangs. They know that it would set off murder sprees in Mexico and that would give Obama and opportunity to create a super-restrictive gun ban in the US as a humanitarian gesture to our neighbors. The UN denies it, but they have been pushing the developed Western nations to disarm its citizens--Australia was one of the most recent examples of that. Perhaps you recall statements by UN officials criticizing the US for dragging its feet on this issue. They said that out of one side of their mouths while denying the existence of such an effort with the other. Obama had been mentioning that he had a plan in the works when speaking in front of left-leaning groups that asked him about the banning guns. This goes all the way to the top and the death toll is currently around 300. Charge them all with murder--negligent homicide. They knew it would happen. They were counting on it.
St. Croix - your last 2 comments are dead on.
I do a ton of business in D.C. The open secret is that NOBODY likes the Obamas. He has gone out of his way to alienate the Sally Quinn crowd. He isn't raising money for the House, only for himself. He is failing, and DC hates a loser.
I just wonder if the Dems can maintain their pretense of loyalty for a guy they have learned to detest.
I'd love a peek inside Bill Clinton's brain right about now.
"Those damn Republicans, trying to crucify an innocent man again!"
OR
"I knew Hillary should have run. Only Hillary can save us. I think Darrell Issa has a sterling record."
"There are essentially 4 grounds for asserting executive privilege: (1) the state secrets privilege, (2) the presidential communications privilege, (3) the attorney client or attorney work product privilege, and (4) the deliberative process privilege.
It appears that the President is relying on the deliberative process privilege. The privilege, however, cannot be used to protect documents in the face of wrongdoing. The DC Circuit wrote that the deliberative process privilege is more easily overcome than the presidential communications privilege. It continued: “Moreover, the privilege disappears altogether when there is any reason to believe government misconduct occurred.” In Re: Sealed Case, 121 F.3d 746 (D.C. Cir. June 17, 1997, No. 96-3124).
The First Circuit agreed. It found that, where there is reason to believe the documents sought may shed light on government misconduct, “the privilege is routinely denied,” on the grounds that shielding internal government deliberations in this context does not serve “the public’s interest in honest, effective government.” Texaco Puerto Rico, Inc. v. Department of Consumer Affairs, 60 F.3d 867, 885 (1st Cir. 1995); see also In re Comptroller of the Currency, 967 F.2d at 634 (“the privilege may be overridden where necessary to ‘shed light on alleged government malfeasance.’”)
The Department literally asserted this privilege in the face of Congressional contempt proceedings. It clearly cannot argue that there is no reason to believe that government misconduct occurred. The assertion of the privilege was therefore illegal.
The Attorney General needs to produce the documents pursuant to Congress’s subpoena."
Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.), an attorney, ex-House Judiciary Committee chairman for six years
I've been thinking about the Watergate/Fast & Furious comparisons and trying to extrapolate how things might work out using the Marx axiom: "history repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce". Suddenly all the pieces fell into place and it all made sense.
Follow along and you, too, will see the invisible hand of fate that guides these events to their inevitable (and chilling) denouement:
The Watergate break-in occurred during Nixon's 1st term. Similarly, F&F occurred during Obama's 1st term.
Obama=Nixon
Biden=Ford
Holder=Mitchell
Extrapolating now...
Early in Nixon's second term, the cover-up and Nixon's involvement in the same results in the president's resignation in disgrace. Likewise, the F&F cover-up will ultimately result in Obama's resignation in disgrace (which is now an honorable thing, unless you're a racist.)
With me so far?
Biden assumes the presidency and Barney Frank is confirmed as his VP. The economy continues to founder, inflation (and disco) comes roaring back, Chevy Chase comes out of retirement and begins mocking Biden weekly on SNL, which is suddenly funny again (I know, I know, but work with me, OK?)
Biden runs for re-election in 2016 with Frank as his running, er, mate. But the shadow of the F&F scandal and general ruling party fatigue allows the challenger to ride into victory with promises of "reform" and "real change" and "leadership" that resonate with an electorate yearning for something completely different.
And who is this brave reformer? Who is the Jimmy Carter of the 21st century? Who is the ONE MAN who can save America?
Ron Paul.
Why, oh why, didn't I see it before?
The ATF gunwalking operation started in 2006?
How is the program that ended in 2007 relevant to the one that was ongoing until a whistleblower went public?
Fast and Furious began
in the ATF Phoenix Field Division in October 2009
So, you theorize that Holder runs the DoJ so loosely that a rogue branch of the ATF can repeatedly violate federal law, get gun dealers to do the same, and ALSO violate Mexican law in pursuit of an operation that didn't actually follow the guns when they went to cartels?
He should be kept in office...why?
“In this case, it seems clear that the administration was forced into this position by the committee’s unreasonable insistence on pressing forward with contempt despite the attorney general’s good faith offer.”
A good faith offer? What Holder gave them was basically, "Agree to drop the investigation before I agree to summarize what's in the documents you haven't seen yet."
That's akin to saying pay me ten bucks for this ice cream cone I might have behind my back.
Sigh. If only Obama were a Republican, we'd see the whistle blower getting the credit deserved and in depth investigations into this by the media, complete with anonymous sources. If only.
Journalists should secretly be happy with a Romney win. It means that they'll do their jobs again and push off the complete take over by the blogosphere.
"I never knew Darrell Issa was accused of stealing cars, as well as being suspected of committing arson.
Vet Darrell Issa!"
-- Your a few years behind the curve then. No one's fault but your own you don't know what has been thrown at Republicans. Pay more attention.
This whole mess may be swept off the field if the USSC issues decisions today, especially any Obamacare ruling.
Or {smacks lips} maybe a bad Obamacare ruling might crush Obama's ability to stand up to the House?
I need more coffee. Good morning!
"If, and I do say IF, the gun walker thing had any use or utility as a method to track where guns go and who has them, it was destroyed when the Obama administration decided and promised to push for gun control legislation in response to US guns in Mexico."
-- It had no viable use, as the guns could not be tracked electronically or in any other way, except by them turning up next to a dead body. Which is one of the many ways it differs from a similar Bush-era program that actually, you know, TRACKED the guns.
garage mahal said...
I'm trying to follow along. The DOJ obviously became aware of F&F at some point. I've seen nothing that Holder or anyone at the DOJ approved or signed off on gunwalking tactics.
That's because you're an idiot.
There were wiretaps used as a part of this operation. The only person who can sign off on a wiretap is the AG or his designee.
You lose, idiot.
Garage believes that Holder is protecting the Bush administration. Garage believs that because this (which he believes is invented by. Glenn Beck) began in 2009 it is (all together now) Bush's fault. Garage has issues with reasoning.
"There aren't enough gun murders in the U.S. already they could have just pointed to?"
-- Violent crime is trending downward, and since most gun murders aren't done by lawful gun owners, those are terrible arguments. I don't believe it was a conspiracy, so much as rank stupidity. Which is also a perfectly valid reason to hold Holder in contempt.
NYT 7/26/07:
House committee 'did its duty, voting to cite [Miers& Bolten] for contempt..Congress should use all contempt powers at its disposal.'
You were all outraged about that right garagie?
Daddy Binx, turn the heat down on your dialectical generator.
I've found that a nice simmer works better than a hearty boil; the USSR always used max boil on its large, industrial-size dialecticals and ended up killing 70,000,000 people.
Michael said...
Garage believes that Holder is protecting the Bush administration
What is funny is these idiots don't seem to understand their "logic" at work.
I had a back & forth on twitter with one of them yesterday and I pointed out that the Obama & his AG are defending Bush and that is what you voted for, right?
Of course the can't grasp logic.
So remember, in garage's world Bush is simultaneously the worst President evah, but Obama continues his programs.
Investor's Business Daily:Woof.
Oh. Garage jumped the shark a long time ago with his Scott Walker conspiracies.
Now it's just fun to watch mental contortions of a liberal defending the indefensible.
Brian Terry, if he were alive.....well, that's why we're going through all this. People were murdered and every one was preventable.
"All this time Obama and Holder have not found a fall guy?
Nobody willing to fall on his sword for the One?"
-- If there weren't a few hundred dead bodies, they could find one. But, no one wants to be on the hook for hundreds of dead bodies.
I think that phrase, hundreds of dead bodies, needs to work its way more in to F&F discussions. Since that's what this is really about. Not executive privilege or gun rights -- hundreds of dead bodies.
garage mahal said...
Obama is the Adult in the Room, finally putting his foot down telling the Tea Party crybabies that their temper tantrums and silly conspiracy theories are over
Uh-huh:
in February 2011, Assistant Attorney General Ron Welch, in response to the investigations by Rep. Issa and Sen. Chuck Grassley of the Fast and Furious gun-"walking" program run out of ATF's Phoenix office, wrote a letter stating that the "allegation that ATF 'sanctioned' or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons ... is false."
Later, Deputy Attorney General Cole, in another letter to Congress, wrote: "Facts have come to light during the course of this investigation that indicate the Feb. 4 letter contains inaccuracies."
Don't worry, the political party you vote for depends on your ignorance.
Oh. Garage jumped the shark a long time ago with his Scott Walker conspiracies.
He jumped the shark long before that. Back around the Climategate I period, he tried to convince us that ManBearPig's house was more environmentally friendly...by linking to Bush's house.
leslyn said...
Safekeeping: that's Obama 1, and Dubya...how many, again?
President Clinton invoked Executive Privilege 14 times.
Safekeeping: that's Obama 1, and Dubya...how many, again?
Valerie Jerrett doesn't allow Barack to make big boy decisions himself, so legally (this current EP's legality is dubious based on the "facts" we know), Barack was unable to invoke EP. As you cannot use EP to protect someone who, on paper at least, is an underling, there hasn't been an opportunity to use it thus far.
John Hinderaker:
The most frequent form of executive privilege raised in the judicial arena is the deliberative process privilege; it allows the government to withhold documents and other materials that would reveal “advisory opinions, recommendations and deliberations comprising part of a process by which governmental decisions and policies are formulated.”
In the Fast and Furious case, the “presidential privilege” clearly does not apply. The administration has said that President Obama had nothing to do with any of the relevant events, and the president says that he learned of the Fast and Furious program “on the news.” And Holder’s letter makes it clear that it is the second type of executive privilege, the “deliberative process privilege,” on which the administration relies:
[The documents under subpoena] were created…in the course of the Department’s deliberative process concerning how to respond to congressional and related media inquiries into that operation. …
[T]he doctrine of executive privilege…encompasses Executive Branch deliberative communications.
[End of citation]
So Obama didn't know about Fast and Furious until he saw it on the news, but these documents were used by Obama to make decisions about Fast and Furious.
Well, he can't have it both ways. Liars, all. What's in the documents that Obama and Holder are hiding?
"so legally (this current EP's legality is dubious based on the "facts" we know), "
-- My understanding is that executive privilege cannot extend to documents when the investigation is to determine government misconduct; Issa's most recent request solely dealt with the, ah, "inaccuracies," in the DOJ's statements that have since been, ah, "re-truthified."
Holder's "good faith attempt"?
Sheesh. Elijah's on weed, or something.
So. Exactly what *are* the Democrats going to do to justify their position on this.
Hey guys -- 2000 all over! Party On! The hell with the Rule of Law!! We're in charge now!
Just a little necessary but oh, so regrettable, sigh, (don't call the widows whatever you do, and Mexicans don't count anyway)collateral damage while we disarm all you [formerly] consitutionally protected legally armed private gun owners.
garage mahal said...
Shouldn't we be holding Congress in contempt for their inability to create a job?
Your silliness is a perfect representation of the political movement you are a part of.
In your idiotic world congress "creates jobs"
What's in the documents that Obama and Holder are hiding?
Er ...proof that Riele Hunter is pregnant again and that Valerie Jarrett is the parthenogenic "father."
Oh, look! ... CLOACA!
Washington Post - Jason Horowitz - - April 11, 2011
On March 30, the 30th anniversary of the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, Jim Brady, who sustained a debilitating head wound in the attack, and his wife, Sarah, came to Capitol Hill to push for a ban on the controversial “large magazines.” Brady, for whom the law requiring background checks on handgun purchasers is named, then met with White House press secretary Jay Carney. During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, “to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda,” she said.
“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”
In the meeting, she said, Obama discussed how records get into the system and what can be done about firearms retailers.
"but under the radar"
And yes, what can be done about those firewarms retailers the DOJ set up to violate the law?
Is Hillary buffing her acceptance speech for the convention? She should have it in her purse in case she needs it in September.
The cosmic pendulum might suggest that with all this bad news Obama has been getting in the past couple of weeks, the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare will swing his way. Disturbing though, I realize, but...
garage,
The ATF gunwalking operation started in 2006?
That operation ended in 2007 after it was discovered the electronic tracking devices were failing and there was a possibility of losing the guns. Fast and Furious is an entirely different operation, without any real effort to track the guns.
I pointed this out yesterday, but I guess it's just best to ignore facts that get in the way of your preferred story, right?
Ken,
these people are brainwashed that "Bush started it"
They say the same about Solyndra.
Note: Eric Holder testified that F&F was an Obama program.
No matter, the utter stupids like garagie see something dis-similar and make it the same.
If Obama was smart, he would dump Holder, release the docs & move on. The question is, is Obama that smart?
St. Croix,
Great points about Obama. In addition, it should be noted that Obama is a very inexperienced prez who grew up in a lefty, anti American cocoon. The conservative approach is to value the individual while lefties value the collective.
It was inevitable that lefties would invent politically correct speech and thought to tell the collective what to say and what to think. The implication is that when a lefty has to deal with somebody who does not share the hiveset of the collective, the lefty is unable to make a coherent argument defending individual points in the lefty catechism.
Obama is no exception to this, when it comes to explaining his thoughts to non lefties, he's got nothin'. On top of that, Obama is so steeped in the lefty catechism/religion, he sees no need to explain himself to non lefties, hence, the invocation of executive privilege.
When Obama is forced out of the lefty cocoon, he is lost, literally clueless.
You have to wonder at what point lefties on this board will do the right thing, think for themselves, condemn Fast and Furious, and demand a thorough investigation.
Can lefties and conservatives at least agree that we want all parts of our government to be as transparent as possible?
Steve Kock @ 10:10am:
You made the milk come out my nose.`
Carnifex, it really hurts your case when you get details wrong! Ruby Ridge happened on GHWB's watch, and the initial planning for the Waco raid also occurred before Clinton took office.
Should we expect lefties to ever acknowledge wrongdoing? I think not. The closest lefties ever come to saying that they did something wrong is to say - the right did it first, (which our own special Garage is now saying BTW). But there are more and more independents and it is worth trying to change their minds issue by issue till they reach a tipping point. One issue is jobs; one issue is debt; one issue is the individual mandate; one issue is the Fast and the Furious; one issue is Obama calling Hollywood trash "the ultimate arbiters"; one issue is national security leaks.
Kirk Parker said...
Carnifex, it really hurts your case when you get details wrong! Ruby Ridge happened on GHWB's watch, and the initial planning for the Waco raid also occurred before Clinton took office.
And the ATF and FBI was reponsible for the resulting deaths in both cases. What's you point.
Rusty,
I suggest you go back and reread Carnifex' original comment at 12:41am, which is what I was replying to. Pay special attention to the last line.
Kirk Parker said...
"the initial planning for the Waco raid also occurred before Clinton took office."
Link please. Don't know if you are correct about the initial planning (probably not) but how is that relevant? It is certain that the initial plan did not call for slaughtering a bunch of people. The problem was in the "execution" of the Waco raid and the response to that "execution". That was all on the dems.
The problem is not just that corrupt dem pols want to use the power of the state to push us around and cover up when they screw up egregiously but also that the corrupt dem journo-list propagandists cover for the dem pols' chicanery.
This is all exacerbated by the typical dem voter not having the integrity to criticize the dems when the dems screw up (eg: Fast and Furious).
Kirk Porker said...
"You made the milk come out my nose."
Why is that? Why wouldn't any citizen who isn't corrupt want the government to be more transparent?`
For example, should the dems come clean about Fast and Furious? If not, why not?
Steve Koch,
Sorry if I let humor win out over clarity: I find the assertion that the left wants transparency in government to be snortably laughable. Not at all sure whether you meant that statement facetiously or not.
As far as Waco goes:
1. The initial raid, as planned, was evil enough: a completely unnecessary, paramilitary-style assault that was likely to cause fatalities (and whadda ya know, it did!)
2. The initial raid was carried out before Reno was even confirmed as AG.
3. The main personnel involved in the initial raid and its planning were not new hires under Clinton; they were long-term ATF personnel.
Sorry, as much as I abominate the current-day Democratic Party and the politics it stands for, there's plenty of bipartisan blame to go around here.
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा