The flier angered teachers, who were already targeted by a flier earlier this year accusing them of having a "Marxist, globalist agenda," said Ted Lewis, regional union representative for Rock County teachers.ADDED: I've lost count of how many times pseudonymous lefties at the Isthmus forum have put up my name and my salary along with some argument that I ought to suffer some negative consequence. (Isthmus is the Madison, Wisconsin "alternative" newspaper.)
"It's trying to intimidate them and make them feel guilty for earning salaries," Lewis said. "They're creating this witch hunt for people who engaged in their civic duty."...
Chris Kliesmet, executive administrator of Citizens for Responsible Government, said his organization isn't responsible for the content of the flier, but said... "The question in the back of a lot of people's minds is, 'Are my children being indoctrinated?'"
२३ मे, २०१२
In Janesville, Wisconsin, an anonymous flier lists teachers' salaries and tells parents to ask for a "non-radical teacher" next year.
The flier names the 321 highest-paid teachers and tells readers to check on line to see if they signed the Scott Walker recall petition.
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टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
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१४६ टिप्पण्या:
Those Open Records can be a motherfucker! For those not from Wi., we have a very open records state. Having worked in many states, it was a distinct pleasure to work here in that regard. In many states you had to "know somebody"[in Chicago I had to know and pay somebody]. You sometimes have to fight a bureaucrat to get the records[local sheriffs can be assholes of their fiefdom], but the law is on your side.
"The flier angered teachers, who were already targeted by a flier earlier this year accusing them of having a "Marxist, globalist agenda," said Ted Lewis, regional union representative for Rock County teachers."
lol
"They're creating this witch hunt for people who engaged in their civic duty."
So which side of the aisle started that kind of tactic?
Live by the public shaming, die by the public shaming.
What is their complaint again? Exposure?
Do teachers fell less loved once their mask is taken off of their feifdoms?
Perhaps we need a day of mourning for exposed teachers.
Janesville is a blue collar town. I've worked there extensively and know a few folks. Their teachers are in line w/ their nearby liberal neighbor, Madison. However, unlike Madison, the folks who live there aren't "progressives"..they're normal. Thusly the conflict.
Some of the commenters to the article are outraged that the flyer was anonymous. It's hard to change the subject from the facts in the flyer to character assassination of the authors if you don't know who wrote it.
Standard lib tactics 101.
PR flack Ted Lewis isn't doing much to promote the idea that teachers have nothing to hide.
My mom was a teacher for 40+ years (and is still subbing in her 70's), my aunt taught for 40+ years, my grandfather taught for 49 years (interrupted by two wars). So I've spent some time around teachers.
I've never heard it referred to as "my civic duty."
But I'm from the south, so who knows what it's called elsewhere.
_XC
As a inner city public school teacher in the deep south I always, when asked what I do for a living, tell them I'm a "bad guy". They all want to know, drug dealer, racketeer, organized crime, lawyer? Nope. Public School teacher. Get's em' everytime. LMFAO!
Quayle asks "which side of the aisle started that tactic?" which was one of my thoughts as well.
My other thought: how well has it worked out for that side of the aisle?
Nothing here seems to be illegal, nor should it be, but it goes beyond the realm of good taste; people who agree with the sentiments expressed in the flier but who aren't off their meds should say so, both because it's right and because this flier probably doesn't help their cause.
To a large extent, politics is about convincing people that your side is more like them; even if they are inclined to agree with your message, if your side looks like a bunch of thugs, they won't want to affiliate with you.
Of course the newspaper gives no hint of what those salaries are.
The public's right to know has limits, eh?
I was not able to open the PDF? Anyone here able to open it?
"It's trying to intimidate them and make them feel guilty for earning salaries," Lewis said. "They're creating this witch hunt for people who engaged in their civic duty. . ."
Sophistry. Your precious teachers are free to sign all the petitions they want, Lewis. But did they dragoon their students to the capital to protest against Walker? Did they use their class time to propagandize about all the dog food and rat poison they'd be forced to eat if Walker wasn't recalled? If so, then they should be shamed.
And of course your children are being indoctrinated. It's only when samizdat video is smuggled out (as in NC) that we see how utterly pathetic, biased and ignorant a huge swath of government teachers are.
"Does anyone know where the decency goes, when you beat up on teachers and nurses?
Looks like that Walker's divide&conquer tactic is working as planned.
Seriously...if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers, I would've laughed in their face. And yet we have all kinds of people cheering on that behavior from Gov. Walker.
And if they are this outrageous while waaay ahead in the polls, (Intrade still says it is a done-deal for him, right?) I'm scared to see how his supporters will react if Walker actually loses the election.
Sorry...can't help but laugh at this expose' of public school employees. Boo Hoo. [giggle][snort] [he he]
Since I spent a large part of my life as either military or "fed" or both, I can't recall a day when my salary/income wasn't publicly available, literally on Google for the curious.
I mean, what the flip, people? Is this really a big deal?
No, it is not.
"It's trying to intimidate them and make them feel guilty for earning salaries," Lewis said. "They're creating this witch hunt for people who engaged in their civic duty."...
Teaching isn't a civic duty. It's a paying job. Do your job well and quit whining.
The sociopaths on the left hate someone trying to make them feel guilty.
purplepenquin said...
Looks like that Walker's divide&conquer tactic is working as planned.
Seriously...if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers, I would've laughed in their face. And yet we have all kinds of people cheering on that behavior from Gov. Walker."
Show me one example of Walker's campaign beating up on teachers. Just one.
My other thought: how well has it worked out for that side of the aisle?
Nothing here seems to be illegal, nor should it be, but it goes beyond the realm of good taste; people who agree with the sentiments expressed in the flier but who aren't off their meds should say so, both because it's right and because this flier probably doesn't help their cause.
To a large extent, politics is about convincing people that your side is more like them; even if they are inclined to agree with your message, if your side looks like a bunch of thugs, they won't want to affiliate with you.
Agreed on all points and would just add the fact that the flyer is anonymous makes it look even worse.
In contrast a flyer that said something like “the average teacher salary in this district is X dollars” or “X number of teachers make above this much money in salary and benefits” or “salaries and benefits account for this much of the school budget” without mentioning the names of who makes what would have been more persuasive (and useful information) without having the taint of looking like you were out to harass individuals.
This was just awful.
"I'm scared to see how his supporters will react if Walker actually loses the election."
-- They'll protest for months on end, burn some lawn signs, threaten some legislators, and sing some songs. Maybe pop a balloon or two.
If the lefties were "outing" the Conservative bad guy du jour this way, it would just be another day at the office.
I am not a fan of this technique, but recalling a cleanly elected Governor who has committed no crime nor caused any scandal is an invitation to a brawl. If you can't man up, you shouldn't have started the fight.
"My other thought: how well has it worked out for that side of the aisle?"
-- Pretty damn good. Remember what happened to Stevens? Remember the upheaval of Joe the Plumber's life for a short while? Heck, just look at the leaks in the John Doe investigation or the constant hammering Palin had while governor with frivolous law suits. That's the problem, more than any thing. Not only is it a dirty tactic, it is a dirty tactic that works. No one emulates failures.
Let's not forget the Prop. 8 releases and ensuing boycotts/threats. Or Politico's recent expose on a person in a Romney ad.
It works. Until Americans resolve to stop letting fighting dirty work, politicians (and others engaged in politics) will keep fighting dirty.
Whatever happened to the idea (carved in stone on the main Brooklyn library) that the truth shall set you free? It's a major mistake for lefties to quarrel with that concept.
If the reporters were doing an article about the OWS protesting the outrageous salaries on Wall Street, would they not also include the amount of the salaries that were being protested. I can see being discreet about the names of the teachers but to withhold the amount of their salaries demonstrates a certain amount of bias......If most of the salaries were north of six figures, the taxpayer has a legitimate complaint. If not, the complaints are overwrought. The newspaper left out a key bit of information.
"if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers,"
I welcome you to list other occupations where there is a similar record of failure in their prime objective, while contiguously gaining higher pay, benefits and relative immunity from firing.
Teachers through support of their unions' ridiculous and selfish agenda over decades has made them unpopular. The people didn't turn on them until they decided their union demands were more important than their students' needs.
A good teacher that puts students first and respects the taxpayers who pay them will be treasured forever. If you want that, be that.
it goes beyond the realm of good taste
Yeah, I can't see this going over well where I live, but maybe it'll be different in Wisconsin.
If there were never a teacher union, I think our nation would be vastly better off today, with teachers and their profession being very highly paid and respected, a well educated population, and much happier teachers and taxpayers.
If you are good, and you know it, then cut the unions loose. They have ruined your profession, and bought you cheap.
"bagoh20 said...
"if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers,"
I welcome you to list other occupations where there is a similar record of failure in their prime objective, while contiguously gaining higher pay, benefits and relative immunity from firing.
Teachers through support of their unions' ridiculous and selfish agenda over decades has made them unpopular. The people didn't turn on them until they decided their union demands were more important than their students' needs.
A good teacher that puts students first and respects the taxpayers who pay them will be treasured forever. If you want that, be that."
All true, but Walker and his campaign has not beat up on teachers. PP will not be able to produce a single example. But I could produce many many examples of teachers, and their unions, beating up on Scott Walker. Including some very vile stuff.
Everyone knows the disaster that is California's fiscal situation. No single group is more responsible for that than the teacher's union. They have supported and fought for every single mistake this state has made, and done it with enormous amounts of union dues. It's a cancer paid for in teacher's souls.
This bothers me. My mother always taught me that two wrongs do not make a right. They have exposed all teachers? So all have been branded as radical here? a former public employee, I bet many of those teachers were like us, forced by law to pay union dues to a loathed union.
Expose the activists instead -- remind them that MLK for one spent a lot of time in jail for his activism. Civil disobedience implies accepting the penalty for same. Good lesson for the kids too.
"If there were never a teacher union, I think our nation would be vastly better off today, with teachers and their profession being very highly paid and respected, a well educated population, and much happier teachers and taxpayers."
I totally disagree. I know teachers who have been wonderfully protected by their union for the same reasons that unions were great to begin with. They protect against management.
The trouble with teacher unions, however, is that on the ground, in the trenches, they protect against really bad administrators (who are the real bane in education) they're utterly in bed with administrators in political involvement. Meaning that teachers often get screwed by administrators who use and abuse the political side of teacher unions.
I'm all for teacher unions, but I think a law should be made that public unions are fine but absolutely no money is allowed to go to politics. Like with churches, preventing political establishment helps protect the organization from being overrun by folks who care about power and wealth more than the core mission.
Teacher unions should help teachers not help administrators and union leaders gain more power--power which is often used in contrast to teacher's own political and professional interests.
Purplepenguin said,"I'm scared to see how his supporters will react if Walker actually loses the election."
Run amok. Break windows, spray paint building, burn cars, occupy the state house, intimidate any business that supported the opponent.
Oh. Wait a minute.
You guys already did that.
Taxpayers tend not to trash the property they pay for.
However they might launch a recall election.
I was not able to open the PDF? Anyone here able to open it?
Yes. (via Firefox 12.0)
Salaries seem to range from mid-60's to upper 70's. It would be interesting to compare these incomes to their local cost-of-living.
Pray tell me how publication of the wages/incomes of public servants is harassment? Are teachers "special" so they shouldn't get the same exposure as ordinary civil servants,soldiers,sailors,airmen,etc.
To paraphrase Bagoh20: If you are good, and you know it ...then act like it.
My mother always taught me that two wrongs do not make a right.
Your mother would get ridiculed and called many names for saying such a thing in this forum. Someone would quickly respond with "Civility? Bullshit!"
And as a bonus, some sick monkey would probably gleefully post a video of
her co-workers dying on the job.
'cause that is how Althouse Thugs like to roll. First they complain about tactics, then they co-opt those same exact tactics, and then they take it even further...
If someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers, I would have laughed in their face.
Beating up, PP? I'd call it a justified reaction after years of blackmail ('if you don't vote for this tax increase, we won't be able to teach the children! Why do you hate children?'), legions of ever-stupider graduates, teacher malfeasance and outright moral bankruptcy, all in service of a corrupt monopoly that will take its pound of flesh from the budget come hell or high water.
"When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."
- Albert Shanker, president of the United Federation of Teachers, 1964-1984
"purplepenquin said...
Your mother would get ridiculed and called many names for saying such a thing in this forum. Someone would quickly respond with "Civility? Bullshit!"
And as a bonus, some sick monkey would probably gleefully post a video of
her co-workers dying on the job.
'cause that is how Althouse Thugs like to roll. First they complain about tactics, then they co-opt those same exact tactics, and then they take it even further..."
Blah blah blah. Still waiting for one example of Walker beating up on teachers. It's bullshit.
I welcome you to list other occupations where there is a similar record of failure in their prime objective, while contiguously gaining higher pay, benefits and relative immunity from firing.
TV meteorologists?
This list shows Janesville teachers making mostly $70,000-ish, so ... meh. If they want outrage, they should look at Madison Metro where all the district administrators and lots of teachers make mid-$100,000s. And the Metro District Administrator, Dan Nerad, double-dips with $200,000 of Green Bay District "emeritus pay", putting him at over $400,000 per year. God forbid he get trimmed back to the level of ... the Governor's pay or something.
Are teachers "special" so they shouldn't get the same exposure as ordinary civil servants,soldiers,sailors,airmen,etc
I don't recall seeing an ads being taken out in any newspaper, listing service member by name, which urged families to not let their children around these "radical" soldiers&sailors.
When/where did you see that happen before?
Seconding Expat(ish) on the "civic duty" business. Teaching is a vocation, or a career, or a job. It is not a "civic duty," except in the sense that any work (public or private, paid or unpaid) might be considered due to the society that sustains the worker and in turn is sustained by him or her. But in that sense we're all engaged in our civic duties — all of us that aren't literally bedridden — so it's not a terribly useful descriptor.
Jury service and conscription in wartime are "civic duties" as commonly understood.
wv: rchende ratbolu. Don't know what that is, but if I saw it on a menu, I don't think I'd order it.
"First they complain about tactics, then they co-opt those same exact tactics, and then they take it even further."
-- Politics isn't Roshambo, or whatever it is called. You don't get to kick first then say the game is over. Don't want to deal with people using dirty tricks against your side? Stop employing dirty tricks (like, you know, unsealing divorce records).
PS--the salaries and benefits for ALL the state's teachers and administrators are posted on the STATE'S education web site, but I haven't seen anyone down at the DPI HQ protesting against the "intimidation" (or the "beating" by their own agency, to use PP's word)
Stop employing dirty tricks (like, you know, unsealing divorce records).
Please point me to the teacher(s) who is named in the Janesville advertisement that "unsealed divorce records" (whatever that is supposed to mean)
Paddy'O,
I think teaching as a beautiful calling and extremely important. Good teachers will never need union protection. In a free market, they would be highly valued, searched out, recruited, highly paid and protected like property values in Marin county.
Unions, by design, make them all equal, and after thwarting the Darwinian forces of free markets, teachers unions have protected the incompetent, corrupt and even dangerous to the point where all teachers are now just union members : all equal, all safe, all with their wagons in a circle. It's a lack of courage, and self respect, in my opinion, and that never pays very well for long.
One proof for me is that I know many lower class families who spend virtually all their disposable income to send their kids to private school rather than to free public schools. Imagine what those teachers would make if the $300K+ spent per public classroom was added to what they spend to send their kids privately. It's a bonanza being sucked up by corruption and graft. Good teachers deserve better, and bad ones nothing. Right now they all get the same. It's very comradish.
You may remember a good teacher protected by the union, but it was not because they were good, it was because they were union. You don't notice how that hurts all the good ones every day, not to mention their students.
Someone would quickly respond with "Civility? Bullshit!"
This from an acolyte of the party of "snipers wanted."
Janesville is a blue collar town. I've worked there extensively and know a few folks. Their teachers are in line w/ their nearby liberal neighbor, Madison. However, unlike Madison, the folks who live there aren't "progressives"..they're normal. Thusly the conflict.
All Janesville teachers are progressives.
No other Janesville residents are.
What a strange town!
"Please point me to the teacher(s) who is named in the Janesville advertisement that "unsealed divorce records" (whatever that is supposed to mean)"
-- It's all politics; don't expect the other side to disarm themselves when neither side will trust the other to do the same. People who support Walker (or Romney) have their information leaked routinely; heck, one guy even got a call from the IRS.
This is a problem that runs deep in American politics. Don't go to a fainting couch over this relatively minor invasion of privacy when we've all shrugged our shoulders at greater ones, solely because this time, your ox was gored.
Or, were you up in arms about how wrong the release of businesses' owners names was for the crime of supporting Proposition 8, or Politico's release of private information about a person who appeared in a Romney ad? Or, is this the bridge too far for you to realize that citizens should not be targeted in political fisticuffs?
"purplepenquin said...
Please point me to the teacher(s) who is named in the Janesville advertisement that "unsealed divorce records" (whatever that is supposed to mean)"
Please point to a single example of Walker or his campaign beating up teachers as you falsely claim.
bagoh20,
Everyone knows the disaster that is California's fiscal situation. No single group is more responsible for that than the teacher's union. They have supported and fought for every single mistake this state has made, and done it with enormous amounts of union dues. It's a cancer paid for in teacher's souls.
No, CA's problem is the combination of a ridiculous constitution and a populace that steadfastly refuses to look more than a month ahead. There is so much mandated referendum-passed spending that if you cut all the discretionary spending literally to zero, the state would still be in the hole. All you can do in such a mess is raise taxes, which only causes more people to flee the state.
There's nothing for it but a new state constitution. And/or splitting CA into several states. (Pluses: You get more Senators! Minuses: The water rights are going to be a bitch to sort out.)
"TV meteorologists? "
Here in CA, the meteorologists have about an 80% success rate - the public teachers graduate 50% of their students.
And the meteorologists are hotter.
OT (nerd alert). Janesville. Isn't that the place where the mudders sing about the man they call Jayne? -CP
Mind you, I acknowledge: This is fighting dirty. I also acknowledge that that is politics. "His sister is a thespian!" after all. It would be better if everyone could be nice and civil, but alas, neither side is willing to try first. Thus, this.
@purplepenquin ... okay, so you're good with the publication of the salaries, then ... since that was also done in a newspaper?
Is the angst over the publication of names and salaries, or over the political leaflets' comments?
As for derogatory comments about soldiers, et al., widely published .... uh, where have you been for the past 40+ years? From SDS to Code Pink and sundry others, it has been non stop. Not only named, many have been criminally charged to great fan fare, then acquitted to nearly no notice at all.
@purplepenquin ... okay, so you're good with the publication of the salaries, then ... since that was also done in a newspaper?
Is the angst over the publication of names and salaries, or over the political leaflets' comments?
As for derogatory comments about soldiers, et al., widely published .... uh, where have you been for the past 40+ years? From SDS to Code Pink and sundry others, it has been non stop. Not only named, many have been criminally charged to great fan fare, then acquitted to nearly no notice at all.
Lewis said it was "ironic" that whoever distributed the fliers "very publicly posts the names of individuals and their salaries and yet he or she won't even divulge their identity."
I do not see the irony.
Michelle,
I agree the voters are ultimately to blame here, but they don't have the time or really even the ability to find out the truth before voting. The teachers union floods the airwaves with bullshit and the media, except for talk radio, is all Democrat entrenched.
The systemic problems were not always there, they were created over many years by Democrats with teacher union dues money. I have watched it happen up close. Always for the children, who now have less than an even chance of graduating, and their families are the most highly taxed in the nation. Reprehensible!
OT (nerd alert). Janesville. Isn't that the place where the mudders sing about the man they call Jayne? -CP
The hero of Canton?
Irony: A man (or woman!) anonymously releases publicly available information for political advantage. This man (or woman!) should be revealed!
Not irony: A man (or woman!) illegally leaks information about an ongoing investigation that should not be released for political advantage. This man (or woman!) is a hero of the people.
I think we may not fully understand irony.
The bulk of the students in the introductory college physics classes I teach cannot do basic math or read at the college level.
They cannot do algebra, they cannot add fractions. They use a calculator to multiply by ten--or one.
They cannot read more than the nouns and verbs in a sentence. You have to write sentences in chronological order because they cannot figure out time order from prepositions. They will not, and in many cases cannot, read tehir textbooks.
Almost every one was educated in a public school.
Per-pupil funding for education, in constant dollars, has tripled since 1970.
Unfortunately we can;t blame this on unions, the teachers in states that are not unnionized are doing no better.
The problem is public schools. That includes teachers and administrators.
Most teachers make more money than most people--this doesn't even include their benefits. And public education has got worse and worse in my lifetime.
It used to be that people who graduated from high school could read. This can no longer be counted on.
I know this, not only because the statistics bear it out, because I have to teach physics to them in college.
Teachers' salaries are high for a reason. How else could they afford private school for their children ?
You don't have one of these in Wisconsin?
http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/
The salary of every public employee, in searchable format.
"However they might launch a recall election."
Hey, come to think of it, is there any reason that a recall against Tom Barrett couldn't be launched if he wins the election? The more the merrier.
"I'm scared to see how his supporters will react if Walker actually loses the election."
Probably organize a protest or two, and leave the protest areas cleaner than they found them.
The flier is asking for freedom of association?
Well, there's yer problem raht there!
Dems had no problem with the fully-public rectal exam of Joe the Plumber. Some even engaged in it. And he was not a public employee.
Chickens come home to roost.
Thorley Winston said... “…the average teacher salary in this district is X dollars” or “X number of teachers make above this much money in salary and benefits”
Well if it is a Bell-shaped curve, then half of all teachers will make more than X. Not very informative. What is needed is how skewed is the distribution, standard deviation and information on outliers, teacher student ratio, administrative overhead, distribution based on tenure, position, (Coach, Arts teacher, Science, etc.), benefits, cost/hr.
For reference I am currently making $37.50/hour as a physician!
penquin, You need some support, dude. Where are your brothers and sisters?
It's trying to intimidate them and make them feel guilty for earning salaries
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
The delicious, delicious irony... nomnomnom...
Sauce for the gander, teachers. And high time.
sNot sure what the complaint is. You protested that you are underpaid. Someone published that fact along with your salary so everyone would know the truth of your statement. If your protest was in good faith and justified, you should appreciate the additional public awareness of the facts. If you are really an overpaid whiner and don't want anyone to know that fact...maybe you should stop being an overpaid whiner.
purplepenquin,
I don't recall seeing an ads being taken out in any newspaper, listing service member by name, which urged families to not let their children around these "radical" soldiers&sailors.
Ah, how quickly the idiot left forgets.
If someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers ..
When you say "beating-up", you don't actually mean "beating-up".
If the left could not misuse the English language they'd have nothing at all to say. All of our political squabbles could be solved if only Democrats were taught the meanings of words.
Shorter Purple Penguin:
"It all started when he hit me back"
Please point me to the teacher(s) who is named in the Janesville advertisement that "unsealed divorce records" (whatever that is supposed to mean)
This is (I think) a rather obtuse reference to Obama's Senatorial run wherein the Ryan's divorce records were unsealed at the urging -- urgent urgent urging -- of David Axelrod.
Because, you know, it's all about Obama.
Ah, how quickly the idiot left forgets
The idiot left just doesn't get how the Al Gore's Internet invention works (what is said today can be recalled at a later date).
My mother always taught me that two wrongs do not make a right. They have exposed all teachers?
"Exposed", how? The salary data is all in the public record. If the media were doing their job (ha ha ha!) they would have already published this information.
No laws were broken in the revealing of the information contained in this flier. Which is a big difference from the way the left operates ...
Ah, how quickly the idiot left forgets.
The idiot left repudiated that ad. According to your link.
Because, you know, it's all about Obama.
Not necessarily. In the context of this discussion, it was just a now commonly known (in the blogosphere, anyway) "dirty trick" that was pulled to get Der Licht Bringer through his first couple political races.
MM,
The idiot left repudiated that ad. According to your link.
Not wanting to be associated with it doesn't mean "I'm sorry for posting something so vile". All they did was delete the ad from their website and act as if nothing like it ever happened.
Additionally, it doesn't matter. PP's statement said he couldn't "recall" anything like that ever happening. Well it did. And I provided evidence.
The only way this is "dirty politics" is if the teachers are embarassed about the quality of their work, and their pay. This is public information. Teachers frequently promote an idealogical agenda, if on overtly, in the jokes they laugh.
I know plenty of looters and moochers who will hollar if somebody cuts off their freeloading.
Teacher and administrator salaries are important, as it questions the teachers claim of being unbiased. Teacher unions, like many others, have become part of a racket. If you don't know somebody, or lack an important "connection", you will never get hired. Too bad, so sad.
It was more part of my broader point: People will play dirty until playing dirty stops working. That's just an example that works; if you'd find it less offensive, I could have used the phone calls about McCain's adopted daughter during the 2000 primary, an example I'm sure no one would have assumed meant it was all about Bush.
I welcome you to list other occupations where there is a similar record of failure in their prime objective, while contiguously gaining higher pay, benefits and relative immunity from firing.
Congresspeople
Forest service
Justice department
Border Patrol
Given that my UW salary has always been publically available, I find it hard to get too worked about about this.
A member of my church was on the local school board for a while. I asked him how things had gotten so out of hand with salaries, tenure, benefits, etc. with teachers. He said, "It's simple. If they don't like a contract offer they strike. And when school starts and the kids are supposed to be going back to school people call up and demand we do something to get the kids back in school. So we do. They have us over a barrel."
It's essentially a monopoly. Sure, there are private schools. But IF YOU'RE A TAXPAYER you still have to pay for the public one even if you send your kid to a private one. If I don't like Fords I can buy a Chevy. But then the Ford union workers suffer because I'm not paying for a Ford anymore, so they have to take that into consideration when they strike. Public school teachers don't. They still get paid.
Notice that PP had no reply for proof on his meme of "Walker beating up on teachers".
Are any teachers upset that the posting of their salary embarrasses them for being so low?. I would understand that. It can be embarrassing to have people know what you are willing to accept if it's low, but I don't think that's their beef with this "exposure".
...if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers, I would've laughed in their face.
"would be ran"
If those teachers taught that...
Then there was the HS social studies teacher that said her student could go to jail for dissing Obama...
The Department of Education screwed up Education. It came into existence 1 month before I graduated High School so I lucked out.
I have very close friends who live in Janesville and the city has fallen on hard times ever since GM, the largest employer and taxpayer, closed the assembly plant there.
Have a look at the BLS snapshot of the city: http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.wi_janesville_msa.htm
Janesville routinely tops the state's unemployment list; the 9.7% rate (March 2012) is significantly higher than the rest of the state. So its quite understandable that taxpayers are upset, and even resentful, of the behavior of their teachers when they have secure jobs and everyone else is losing theirs.
Many Janesville teachers spent part of last summer driving around the state protesting. I was at an event at Gateway Technical College in Racine where they disrupted a speech by Scott Walker.
BTW, Janesville is also Paul Ryan's hometown.
The idiot left repudiated that ad. According to your link.
Did they? Did they come out with an announcement that "This was a bad thing to do, we apologize, and we'll take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again"? Or did they just quietly take it down because their own guy hired the subject of the ad and it became politically disadvantageous to keep it up?
The former is repudiation. The latter is not.
Teachers frequently promote an idealogical agenda
That's very true. In Mississippi, for example, teachers say you can't promote the US Marines!
Darn those Unionized Mississippi Teachers!
He beat up on teachers so much, he ensured fewer were laid off. When I beat up on people, I try to have it so they're better than when the beating began, like a violent masseuse.
purplepenquin,
Althouse and her husband have been harassed and threatened many times, and only an idiot would call them radical in any sense.
I don't support what your side does at all. And I don't care if everyone knows how much these people make; I only object to them all being tarred as Marxist radicals. The facts on the flyer are great, and perfectly fair in an election. They should have stopped there.
"Alex said...
Notice that PP had no reply for proof on his meme of "Walker beating up on teachers"."
Of course. PP goes beyond the usual liberal tactic of stating opinion as fact and building an argument from there. PP states bullshit as fact.
Walker has not beaten up teachers, or any public union employee. He has actually been quite complimentary toward all public workers. The opposite of course is not true. We've seen it here by posters and stuff Ann has shown.
MadisonMan,
The UCMC t-shirt rejection had nothing to do with support, or lack of, for the USMC.
It was a matter of dog balls.
I think you know that and were joking, but I just wanted to defend my home boys.
Ellisville, Mississippi is not exactly a hotbed of liberal activism.
Looks like that Walker's divide&conquer tactic is working as planned.
Yes, the ones who occupied the Capital for weeks weren't divisive. It was all Walker. Yup.
Seriously...if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers, I would've laughed in their face. And yet we have all kinds of people cheering on that behavior from Gov. Walker.
Ignoring that your comment is laughably false...
If somebody told me that a governor would face a recall for saving his state a billion dollars by ending the practice of drastically overpaying for insurance for state employees, I'd have laughed in their face.
Live and learn.
Ellisville, Mississippi is not exactly a hotbed of liberal activism.
Policy Idiocy knows no Political leaning.
I loved the Principal's reaction: We recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning!!
And, apparently, extrapolate greatly from it.
One Nation, Under God, Indivisible, Never Offending Anyone, with Liberty and Justice for All!
Notice that PP had no reply for proof on his meme of "Walker beating up on teachers"
You give him way too much credit. He did not say "beating up on teachers". The words used were "beating-up teachers". He claimed that teachers were being physically assaulted.
Oh, this wasn't a dirty trick at all.
You want to know what a dirty trick really is?
List three facts:
A. When the age that teacher is eligible to retire.
B. List the size of their pension.
C. List their life expectancy.
Now THAT's dirty.
Darn those Unionized Mississippi Teachers!
Are ya'll under the impression that teachers in the south aren't unionized?
Think again.
"It's trying to intimidate them and make them feel guilty for earning salaries," Lewis said. "They're creating this witch hunt for people who engaged in their civic duty."...
Well, if they're actually doing political or ideological indoctrination apart from what's in the curriculum or basic civics, they bloody well should feel guilty, and that's not their damned "civic duty".
Teachers generally (as a political bloc, that is) keep asserting that they're underpaid and overworked... shouldn't exposing their salaries, if that's true, help their cause?
(I'll agree with S, by the way, that it's bad taste to point out individual salaries with names.
Not wrong as such, since as a public employee one has to be accountable to the ultimate boss - the public.
But bad taste, in this context, rather than one of competence vs. pay.)
Are ya'll under the impression that teachers in the south aren't unionized?
No.
When I hear the term "Marxist Globalist Agendda" I see an idiot with bad sideburns, nicotine stained fingers and a cozy room in mom's basement. There could be very good reasons to oppose some teachers and their unions but by using idiot terms like that you forfeit the debate.
To DADvocate, et. al. I don't think the phase "civic duty" was meant to refer to the job of teaching, but, rather, their protesting Gov. Walker that brought them so much attention.
Please note, he didn't say it was their civic right but their duty. In other words, everybody should feel obligated to protest against a GOP governor; it's the only logical and proper thing to do.
When I hear the term "Marxist Globalist Agendda" I see an idiot with bad sideburns, nicotine stained fingers and a cozy room in mom's basement. There could be very good reasons to oppose some teachers and their unions but by using idiot terms like that you forfeit the debate.
ah good to know, the debate is forfeited because YOU said so.
I can't remember if it was a commenter here or at another blog who recently said something like when I read the "If you can read this, thank a teacher" bumpersticker, I want ask that teacher who do I thank for the US not being in the top 10 in math and science?
PR Fail for Citizens for Responsible Government, a group the denies responsibility for the flier (although they are the group that requested the salaries). Run, run away! Add this to CRG's unsuccessful attempt to recall Senator Jauch.
Let's say a teacher makes $60K -- I saw the flier yesterday, and that was the low end. 25 students per teacher works out to $2400 per student, about $15/day per student, assuming a 160-day school year (not the 180 that actually occurs).
A few observations from a Walker supporter (me):
1. There is considerable variation in compensation of teachers in Wisconsin depending on location. By and large good teachers are not overpaid in much of Wisconsin. Bad ones are overpaid by definition.
2. A big problem with the unions is that they inhibit weeding out the weaker teachers.
3. As someone points out above, results matter. But the poor results do not correlate with union representation very strongly. Many areas where teachers unions are weak or do not exist are also getting poor results. The issue is weak administration, lack of political will, low standards and mediocre curriculum.
4. Being a good teacher is difficult. That is why there are too many bad ones.
We make a mistake if we think that teachers are the problem. The problem is the system in which they work, and only part of that systemic problem has much to do with unions.
Does that figure include bennies?
Teachers generally (as a political bloc, that is) keep asserting that they're underpaid and overworked... shouldn't exposing their salaries, if that's true, help their cause?
If what they were saying was true ... absolutely. Public employees, though, seem to really dislike their salaries being made known to the people who are required to pay them.
Let's say a teacher makes $60K
...for 9 months a year.
That's pretty solid pay.
By the time you add in all the holidays, isn't it really 8 months?
...for 9 months a year.
That's pretty solid pay.
I broke it down to a per-student basis, which I think is more illustrative.
"if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up..."
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
Las Vegas?
Wall Street?
Health insurers?
The oil industry?
The Supreme Court?
"Fat Cat" bankers?
The Cambridge, Mass. police who “Acted stupidly”?
Corporate-jet owners?
Doctors, who needlessly chop off the limbs of diabetics and take out tonsils to increase their own profits?
Millionaires, who don't pay their fair share?
Rural Pennsylvanians, who cling to their guns and religion?
Sarah Palin ("You can put lipstick on a pig. It’s still a pig.")?
The Tea Party ("The teabag, anti-government people")?
And yet we have ignorant twits like you cheering on that behavior from Prez 0bummer.
Does that figure include bennies?
I'm guessing not. So feel free to change that $15/student per day to something more like (I'm guessing) $20 - $22. (My 'overhead' is something like 30%, I think, but I'm not a Janesvoid teacher)
What does normalizing by the number of students teach us? Is there something we should compare this number to?
What you pay a babysitter?
Some quick facts: Janesville population of about 65K, median household income just at $49K. Seems that in a town like that with a school system that has 721 teachers the bigger concern is that the public realizes the teachers' compensation package is likely much more generous than their own, especially when the Walker recall started as an argument over public sector unions collective bargaining.
Oh, waaaaah. Cry me a river, teachers.
Janesville also has two high schools, Craig and Parker, for a population of 60K or thereabouts.
That's always seemed like a lot of high school for the size of the town, but my high school class was 580 (and it was a temporary dip for my class from around 650 the years before and after)
They should close down Parker and just keep Craig.
Using per-student figures is not really insightful, because it is not as though each student receives the teachers undivided time and attention. I mean, that would be like Aaron Rodgers complaining because he earns less than $1 per Packer game viewer per game. Less than $1 for a whole game of severe physical demands and psychological stress! Appalling!
A major problem is that the teachers are caught between the education bureaucrats (as demanding as any corporate management) and the public. The latter has a large portion of lazy and "entertain me" students and their discipline problems and careless parents who expect teachers to miraculously instill a love of learning in their precious snowflakes. Who would not at least want high pay for such an untenable situation?
bagoh20 said... "A good teacher that puts students first and respects the taxpayers who pay them will be treasured forever."
I suspect what usually happens is other teachers resent such a teacher for making them look bad. Also, such a teacher is better usually because he/she is NOT following the directives of their principals and other management and will just earn their ire.
From "A Nation at Risk", 1983 (THIRTY years ago) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nation_at_Risk
"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war. As it stands, we have allowed this to happen to ourselves. We have even squandered the gains in student achievement made in the wake of the Sputnik challenge. Moreover, we have dismantled essential support systems which helped make those gains possible. We have, in effect, been committing an act of unthinking, unilateral educational disarmament. Our society and its educational institutions seem to have lost sight of the basic purposes of schooling, and of the high expectations and disciplined effort needed to attain them."
Little has changed. We are so f'ed. Or as Ted Kennedy put it: "I'm glad I'm not going to be around when you guys are my age. Because when you guys are my age, the whole thing is going to fall apart.' "
The great Aaron Rodgers -- who is the best quarterback in the game right now -- is there to entertain the brave and loyal fans in Lambeau Field (which is the best football field in the NFL bar none).
I think your analogy falls flat. He is there to entertain, not to instruct.
Have I mentioned that the winner of DWTS is the peerless Donald Driver, a player any team would bless God to have?
I think your analogy falls flat. He is there to entertain, not to instruct.
It doesn't really matter. The point is he's being paid to do something for a group of people. The fact that it is a small amount per person served doesn't logically imply that he is thus underpaid for his services.
Which is to point out that analogizing it to a service rendered to one or two people, like babysitting, is inappropriate.
Which is why I put in a question mark after that. I wasn't sure about it.
Whay do you compare it to? I'm not sure there is something pertinent.
Been on an airplane and then in Crystal City for an hour...
What's the big deal? What happened to transparency?
Here is Lowell's list, which has been out the forever, so to speak.
Regards — Cliff
"MadisonMan said...
...in Lambeau Field (which is the best football field in the NFL bar none)."
The Giants sure would agree.
While posting salaries isn't civilized, it is entertaining.
Does anyone else suspect that one of the intended results is that workers who may make, say, $50k, will notice that they are paying hundreds of dollars a month for their health care while Neighbor Teacher, making $65k, was going nuts because she was now being forced to pay ones of dollars a month? Yes, we all knew that months ago, but now we have concrete knowledge of our neighbors and can compare.
FLIER - a person or thing that flies or an aviator
FLYER - a brochure or printed advertisement
-----------------------------
You're really "bringing it" to those "stupid" teachers.
"Does anyone else suspect that one of the intended results is that workers who may make, say, $50k, will notice that they are paying hundreds of dollars a month for their health care while Neighbor Teacher, making $65k, was going nuts because she was now being forced to pay ones of dollars a month?"
I have said all along, these people (the protesters/recallers) are idiots.
purplepenquin said...
Seriously...if someone told me five years ago that a political campaign would be ran mostly based on beating-up teachers, I would've laughed in their face. And yet we have all kinds of people cheering on that behavior from Gov. Walker.
There is no evidence, anywhere, at all, that Gov Walker has anything to do with this.
But of course you're a silly, dishonest hack, so there is that.
I broke it down to a per-student basis, which I think is more illustrative.
No, it really isn't.
What you pay a babysitter?
Am I required to use a babysitter?
It's considered a civic duty to be a teacher now? I don't agree with publicizing their salaries in this way but get serious.
Huh. It's not clear to me why any public employee would imagine that his or her salary isn't public information. The taxpayers foot the bill. Why shouldn't they know what they're paying to whom for what?
I am a state employee, and where I live, the local paper publishes a searchable database every year with titles and salaries of public employees. It's very easy to look up any teacher in the area, or any other public employee, or me for that matter, and find out exactly what we earn. And that's how it ought to be.
purplepenquin said...
"Does anyone know where the decency goes, when you beat up on teachers and nurses?
And doctors, too. Beating up on doctors who did nothing more than their civic duty when they wrote sick notes to the protesting teachers.
"They're creating this witch hunt,..."
Music to my Joe McCarthy-loving ears. The teachers brought it on themselves.
Now if they'd only include witches,...
Nate,
A major problem is that the teachers are caught between the education bureaucrats (as demanding as any corporate management) and the public.
Reason #1,234,256,753 to privatize education.
Am I required to use a babysitter?
More appropriately, are you required to PAY for a babysitter, whether you use one or not? Hell, whether you have kids, or not?
And what if you want to use a different babysitter? You'll still have to pay for the one your not using, on top of the one you are.
PurplePenguin: cause that is how Althouse Thugs like to roll. First they complain about tactics, then they co-opt those same exact tactics, and then they take it even further...
Shorter Purple: "Waaaaah! They punched *back* waaaaaah!"
Besides, the libtards were going to accuse us of being nasty no matter what we did. So we might as well be so.
feel free to change that $15/student per day to something more like (I'm guessing) $20 - $22
I bet we could replace the lot of them at half the cost with at least double the results.
The richness of irony.
The time to turn the weapons upon the unions and the MSM is upon us.
Forward!!!
@Sofa King ... using Madison Man's numbers (which for this debate, are meaningless)...
Let's say a teacher makes $60K -- I saw the flier yesterday, and that was the low end. 25 students per teacher works out to $2400 per student, about $15/day per student, assuming a 160-day school year ...
... and extrapolating to service provided per student per day, you get approximately 14 minutes per student per day, and assuming (optimistically) that covers 7 "periods" in a school day, that's about 2 minutes per student per period.
"Periods" @ 50 minutes each X 7 "periods" / 25 students = 14 minutes per student per day.
14 minutes per student per day / 7 periods = 2 minutes per student per period.
Stats and numbers can be what you want them to be much of the time ... just leave out the inconvenient ones.
Now compare to a baby sitter and what service per child you get per "period?" Oh, wait ...
Thanks to @C R Krieger for Lowell's list. More "fun with numbers" ... that can be revealing now and then:
A quick count using the Lowell list provides this breakdown:
1. Supervisors, supervisory staff, administrative staff, counselors, and social workers: 216.3 people
2. Custodial, maintenance, specialists (non-teaching), liaisons, and therapists: 192 people
3. "Paraprofesionals" (presumed to be involved in teaching): 241 People
4. Teachers: 1057.5 people
Summarizing ...
Categories # 2, 3, and 4 = 1490.5 people.
Category # 1 = 216.3 people
Ratio of Category 1 to 2+3+4 = 6.89 ...e.g., ratio of supervision group to functional staff.
There's a hint, as others have suggested, about where part of the problem is ... I'll leave it to someone else to decide if that's top heavy or not. Note that in federal bureaucracies the stand minimum ration of this type is 1 to 10.
Please, regarding sharp shooting the numbers, I did them quickly with pencil and paper, no calculator, and they could be off by +/- 2 per category. Makes no significant difference to the ratio.
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