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७० टिप्पण्या:
Makes sense to me. Ironically the best thing about Obamacare is the thing that needs to die to kill the rest of it.
I wonder were HSA's fall into Newt's nebula of ideas.
This,
The good thing is that unlike the Hillarycare process of 1993, we don’t have 500 people in a room hiding in a room trying to write the magic bill that’s gonna go through on an up or down vote. We actually have a process underway where lots and lots of different players have a real opportunity to have input. And I think in that sense this is already a healthier process than we saw in 1993, and a more open process.
is the more troubling quote.
What kind of delusion was he engaging in to believe Obamacare was a "healthy process"?
But that was Newt's second marriage to a health care plan, and he has divorced it and has married his third plan.
Flexibility can be an asset.
:(
First, they offered free health care, and I didn't speak up because they weren't taking my money to pay for it.
Then, they offered free college, and I didn't speak up because they weren't taking my money to pay for it.
Then, they offered free housing, food, and clothes, and when they came to me to pay for it, there was no one left to speak for me...
So this is just a re-statement of the 'illegal to be uninsured' thing we've been railing against (rightfully so, perhaps) in the Pelosi-care bill?
Too late for a "Gingrich is like Obama" tag?
Newt is being sincere in his various approaches, the trouble is that Newt's sincerity is always centered around what will most profit Newt.
He's this election's Huckabee. Instead of using religion, though, he uses conservative ideals and an academia posture to promote himself above all.
Tradguy, ha!
I hear Newt has a plan on the side he's not telling anyone about.
This really gets to the bottom of why government should not be in the medical business. Once you move responsibility from the individual to the government the government will inevitably have to take an authoritarian position (or accept eventual bankruptcy).
Newt's reaction may seem like the only solutiuon to a bad set of choices, but those choices are limited by our previous decisions. When you get to a point where this kind of authoritarianism seems the best option you need to rethink the circumstances. This is particularly revealing for Newt because his habit of not accepting the premise or challenging the question in debates did not translate to policy in this case.
This is a huge failure. I'm not a huge Romney fan, but I'll still be glad the day Newt throws in the towel.
The real eye roller is in his first quote:
"The good thing is that unlike the Hillarycare process of 1993, we don’t have 500 people in a room hiding in a room trying to write the magic bill that’s gonna go through on an up or down vote."
OH and:
we would allow you... but we would not allow
Gee, thanks Newt.
I'm so glad the federal government will allow me stuff.
When it isn't allowing me stuff.
How big of you.
"Actually, the idea as you know came from conservatives at the Heritage Foundation, Newt Gingrich and the idea was this we have today in this country an insistence — insistence that government does treat people. That people that don’t have insurance are given free care by government."
Sayeth the Republican nominee...
Sayeth the Republican nominee...
Mach nichts. It's immensely possible to be a conservative and not like a Republican nominee.
I believe that libertarians would actually prefer repeal of the Emergency Medical Treatment Act to piling more legislation on top of it.
Goodbye, you tool.
"Sayeth the Republican nominee..."
The Republican nominee for what office?
Which is why we shouldn't vote for Newt. His conversion to the anti-mandate side is questionable.
Or Romney, who actually implemented a similar plan.
Actually they are all dissimilar to Obama in a qualitatively different way. I don't believe any of the current crop of republicans would have jammed that health care bill over the opposition of the majority of the public the way Obama did. And they would have never structured it the way the dems did with government control, nor could republican ever have gotten away with financing it with a half trillion dollars ripped smooth out of Medicare the way Obama did.
No matter what anyone says, none of the republicans running would have or could have nationalized health care the way Obama did.
But as I've said before, I don't trust any of them to overturn it either. None of them seem to have ever had the idea that it isn't the business of government to solve every single problem on the planet, and that was Reagan's core philosophy.
If the media (or Romney, or whomever) wanted to crucify Newt as a potential candidate, this quote is certainly the way to go about it.
wv 'sauniev' - Russian haute cuisine
"DaveW said...
But as I've said before, I don't trust any of them to overturn it either"
I wouldn't "trust" any politician to do anything. But Romney has explicitly said he would repeal Obamacare. As far as I know the other candidates have not.
If the so called "free riders" pay insurance premiums then indeed do not access healthcare that year, and have ZERO unpaid bills, then you refund their money to them.
Works for me!
I would ALSO apply that to Medicare premiums that we are forced to pay as well. If you do not use medical services when eligible for Medicare you get an annual rebate of premiums previously paid and deduction on future premiums.
This would discourage over use and abuse of the system.
Since I don't use any medical services with the exception of a physical check up every couple of years and mammo gram about every 3 or 4 years. No prescriptions and I pay cash for my medical, dental needs and eyeglasses.....WINNING!!
...Romney has explicitly said he would repeal Obamacare...
Yeah, and his close adviser Norm Coleman said just last week something pretty close to 'Look, we can't repeal the whole thing. It'll have to be done piecemeal'.
The backtracking on Romney's pledge has already begun.
"If the so called "free riders" pay insurance premiums then indeed do not access healthcare that year, and have ZERO unpaid bills, then you refund their money to them."
This doesn't solve the fiscal problem. The point of insurance is that everyone pays and a minority use. If the non-users are refunded then those who use either pay the full cost themselves or government pays all amounts expended for any individual over the premium that person paid.
There isn't an easy solution to this dilemma.
DaveW said...
I'd like to see the exact quote, but recognizing political reality isn't necessarily a drawback. And he's still gone farther than anyone else.
The point of insurance is that everyone pays and a minority use
This is true.
However, she who cannot be named ;-) has an excellent point. There are plenty of free riders already in the system, (illegal aliens, indigent, welfare generations) who don't pay any premiums or carry insurance now and NEVER WILL PAY a single dime.
The rest of us who have jobs and pay our taxes are already carrying these leeches on our backs.
Why in HELL should I pay for insurance if I don't want to when there are already millions upon millions of people who don't and won't and never will?
This is a lie because Newt says it is a lie.
Newt's biggest problem is that he shoots his mouth off all the time. He has taken all sides on an issue during his career.
"Why in HELL should I pay for insurance if I don't want to when there are already millions upon millions of people who don't and won't and never will?"
I don't think you should have to, I'm just pointing out the "solution" offered isn't workable. "Insurance" with a refundable premium isn't insurance. Under this solution you pay those health costs in taxes instead of a premium, so how does the plan advance your preference?
How is this any different from what Romney did in Mass.? He's still defending it and yet you're voting for him. Very strange. At least Newt only talked about it, Romney *did* it and it inspired Obama to do the same thing on a national scale (something Romney used to say he supported as well). Seems like a pretty weak hit on Gingrich to me.
I'm no Santorum fan, but he's right about this. It'll be pretty silly to nominate the guy who inspired Obamacare and have him turn around and attack it. If you think Romney can't get any more disengenuous, this would be a great way to find out.
Mary,
Think of this like a lottery. You're proposing those who don't win get their money back. If that happens where does the money for the prize come from?
The answer is taxes, so we're back to forced payment. The proposal is no different than the current (unacceptable) circumstance, except that it's less transparent and more manipulable. It's politically easier for Democrats to force the middle class to pay proportionally more income tax than it would be to set differential premiums for the same service. The final result would be a larger burden on the middle class due to medical costs.
I don't disagree with your goals, but this policy won't meet them.
"Insurance" with a refundable premium isn't insurance. Under this solution you pay those health costs in taxes instead of a premium, so how does the plan advance your preference?
Insurance is an assessment of risk.
If I am healthy I may asses my risk as low and decide not to purchase insurance. If I take this course of action and have a catastrophe.....tough. Too bad for me. I guessed wrong. Why should it be your responsibility to pay my way? It isn't.
If YOU want to support me in this first case then that should be YOUR decision.
If I am healthy and decide to purchase insurance the company will asses my risk to them as low and grant me lower premiums.
If I'm not healthy the risk to the insurance company is higher and the coverage is priced accordingly or decide that the risk it too big and deny coverage.
THAT is insurance.
Truth be told,
once you take the underwriting out of it, and "guarantee" coverage despite pre-existing conditions, it's not really insurance at all anymore. It's ... sicker than socialism really. It's ... for-profit confiscation into the hands of private companies.
BINGO.
I'm no Santorum fan, but he's right about this. It'll be pretty silly to nominate the guy who inspired Obamacare and have him turn around and attack it.
Obama ran against a mandate and ran for net spending cuts. This time around he's going to have to campaign defending the exact opposite of those positions.
In the last few elections, we've had candidates that voted for a war in Iraq campaign against the war, and candidates who voted for NCLB who campaigned against it.
It's not like it's unprecedented to run against something you'd previously supported. It's very precedented.
It's not like it's unprecedented to run against something you'd previously supported. It's very precedented.
One might even say its omniprecedented.
"we would allow you to post a bond, but we would not allow people to be free riders failing to insure themselves and then showing up at the emergency room with no means of payment."
The "we" Newt refers to is, of course, the federal government.
Advantage, Romney.
Game, set, match?
DBQ has it exactly right
Insurance for me has been an incredible waste of money. My premiums for auto, health, vision, dental, LIFE!, over the years have been gartantuan. My benefits meagre. Alas, that is insurance.
The good thing is that unlike the Hillarycare process of 1993, we don’t have 500 people in a room hiding in a room trying to write the magic bill that’s gonna go through on an up or down vote. We actually have a process underway where lots and lots of different players have a real opportunity to have input. And I think in that sense this is already a healthier process than we saw in 1993, and a more open process.
Oh, boy. I was a young doctor just out of residency when Hillarycare was being penned. I remember my Congressman came to our town and held town meetings about it before voting on it. I wrote him a letter and he even called me to discuss my opinion. And he was a Democrat.
With Obamacare the only "players" involved were the lobbyists - from the hospital industry, the insurance industry, and the pharmaceutical industry. The AMA was there, too, but they were played for suckers. Compared to Hillarycare, the Obamacare process was completely in the dark from the voting public. Remember the Democrats running from any discussion of it in town hall meetings all over the country? They really didn't know what was in it until they passed it.
Pffft to Newt. A man as smart as he is supposed to be should have known better. (Or was he working for one of those lobbyist "players" at the time?)
wv: "lother" When it comes to our politicians, I'm becoming a "lother"
My premiums for auto, health, vision, dental, LIFE!, over the years have been gartantuan. My benefits meagre. Alas, that is insurance.
Life insurance is the ONLY one that is guaranteed to have a qualifying event :-P
The rest. You pay your premiums or take your chances.
If you lose. Didn't buy insurance and your house burns down. It is only YOUR fault and the rest of us are not obligated to build you a new home.
Insurance is VOLUNTARY. Socialized medicine and other social welfare programs are just a FORCED transfer of money from those who work and pay to those who do not.
In most other countries and historically this method of forced work for the benefit of others is usually called SLAVERY.
Mary,
I'm not missing the point at all, you need to take your analysis to the next level. You think you are proposing a solution that is voluntary, but in reality you are not. If your proposal were to become policy the government will pay those costs out of taxes. So unless you're claiming taxes are voluntary you haven't overcome your own objection with your policy.
One might even say its omniprecedented.
Superomniprecedented?
JAC noted a great point last week from, I think, Romney: The tax code that allows businesses to write off health care expenses for employees is at the root of this problem. Why should jobs provide health insurance?
Why should jobs provide health insurance?
Didn't GM sort of cement this as an institutional thing? Or was it WWII war industry jobs? If I remember correctly, those wages/salaries were capped so employers needed other ways of attracting good people.
"Mary,
I'm referring to this: Mary said...
Here's an idea:
If the so called "free riders" pay insurance premiums then indeed do not access healthcare that year, and have ZERO unpaid bills, then you refund their money to them."
I'm simply pointing out that this specific element doesn't accomplish what you would like it to. In fact it might be worse around the edges because income taxes are the Democrats primary redistribution funding tool. Until you remove the payment requirement from the government you're only changing how the funds are collected, not whether they are collected. Whether they are collected determines whether our payment is voluntary or not.
I understand you don't think you should be forced to pay for others medical. But that preference doesn't effect whether this specific element actually creates a voluntary choice.
This was raised when Newt and Huntsman shared the same locker. So we, and he, knew it was coming.
DaveW said...
...Romney has explicitly said he would repeal Obamacare...
Yeah, and his close adviser Norm Coleman said just last week something pretty close to 'Look, we can't repeal the whole thing. It'll have to be done piecemeal'.
The backtracking on Romney's pledge has already begun.
Excellent point. Milton needs to explain and repudiate this.
If there are Senate or House rules why Coleman's statement is true, he'd better specify them so as clean a sweep of Congress may be made.
"Or was it WWII war industry jobs? If I remember correctly, those wages/salaries were capped so employers needed other ways of attracting good people."
This is correct.
"Mary said...
"If your proposal were to become policy the government will pay those costs out of taxes. "
At some point, the people will simply vote out those politicians who make financial promises they cannot keep."
I'd like to believe this is true, but Obama's election doesn't support that from my perspective. His entire appeal was "I'll get you stuff and stick 'the rich' with the bill". And he won.
It seems to me there is a large constituency who votes for whichever politician promises and then delivers the most graft. And similar to the old union towns even those who don't directly benefit will support it if they have a family member or enough friends effected.
WWII war industry jobs? If I remember correctly, those wages/salaries were capped so employers needed other ways of attracting good people.
I think it was a Hospital that first offered it, in Texas. Memory falters.
Why did companies stop at health insurance, I wonder? Why not car insurance or home insurance?
Why not car insurance or home insurance?
Good question. Certainly as urbans sprawled and subs urbed, having a reliable car became ever more important. One would think car insurance might be a good perk.
"Why did companies stop at health insurance, I wonder? Why not car insurance or home insurance?"
These insurances weren't costly enough to matter. So when industry pushed for this they didn''t care much about non-medical insurances.
For me these costs combined are less than $800/year. Medical is $2,400/month.
Are you very sick then, or just very gullible?
Did you turn into a complete asshole over time or were you born that way?
MayBee,
I'll grant that to a point, but Romney is a special case, isn't he? After all, he didn't just vote for this or campaign against that, he signed the inspiration for Obamacare into law, then touted it as a national solution for health care. It was only recently that he edited that stuff out of his book and his public discourse.
Romney would be just another politician doing what you described if he'd said that what he did was the wrong approach or that it didn't work. Instead, he's doubled down on it and said he's proud of the law and that it does work. Romney fans like Ann should probably not ding Gingrich for something like this if they aren't going to press their candidate on it as well.
" Mary said...
"Medical is $2,400/month."
It would take me years and years to accumulate enough medical bills to justify that monthly expense.
Are you very sick then, or just very gullible?"
Gullible? No. Slightly annoyed by people who presume they know enough to lecture others on topics they know nothing about? Yes.
I have come to the belief that Romneycare is best considered a complete non-issue in the Republican campaign. It MAY be one in the general election if SCOTUS fails to rule Obamacare unconstitutional on 10th Amendment grounds..as well as launch a huge Tea Party resurgence to gain power to legislatively limit the powers of the Federal government - because if they can shove Obamacare on the states under the commerce clause they can shove ANYTHING on the states, take away any State Powers under similar reasoning.
But as things stand....it doesn't bother me at all if Maine decides to pass Romneycare Rev2, or Hawaii falls so in love with Obamacare that they pass a faithful state version of it. As it stands - Romney saying he would do a waiver letting each State decide whatever plan they want - be it Romneycare, Obamacare, the Big Pharma plan, the Afghanistan Zerocare model - its all good with me.
I actually object to Santorum saying he hates Romneycare so much that he would try and end it everywhere as a power of the Federal executive.
Why?
The liberals in Mass like it 3-1. Santorum and Newt are both people that see solutions coming from DC. Santorum adds other stuff that he is "morally compelled" to act when States add features like morning after pills, abortion, "Freedom!! Killing!! Mandates!!"
But that just substitutes a right wing theocrat trampling on the 10th Amendment for the present Obamite/Pelosi socialist approach.
I am actually most comfortable with Romney - he has actually delved deep into the nuts and bolts of health insurance, heathcare - devised something his constituents were happy with but something he says is NOT ideal for many other States, will not force anything on them, and knows the flaws of Romneycare and has some lessons learned.
The exponentially rising costs of healthcare as a national problem threatening our financial solvency will not go away by ignoring them. If it properly goes to States, they have to figure out how to lower drug prices and overall costs by 50% to get America in line with the costs seen in advanced European and Asian nations.
Romney, IMO, is the best choice to honor the 10th Amendment and work with all parties to lower costs...and to let the States and all the stakeholders in 50 different "test laboratories" devise improvements.
Mary said...
Here's an idea:
If the so called "free riders" pay insurance premiums then indeed do not access healthcare that year, and have ZERO unpaid bills, then you refund their money to them."
"Fair enough"?
====================
Good luck on that idea, and getting a complete refund each year from your auto and home insurers for each year you do not make a policy claim.
Also, good luck on getting a homeowners "free rider" system where it is all about Freedom!!! and you can call a home insurer from your cell phone outside your burning 300,000.00 home to let them know you are now willing to pay that 800 a year you have avoided participating in the risk pool for 25 years and funded an extra vacation each year from avoiding paying homeowners out of a sense of Freedom-Loving!!
Cedarford @1:05 puts it well. It's about states' rights for me; I thought most conservatives cared about that. Newt was for a federal mandate; Romney never was. Why should the POTUS or anyone else strip the citizens of MA of something they voted for and clearly want, even now? In its own way that's as much of a peremptory top-down imposition as Obamacare.
I'll grant that to a point, but Romney is a special case, isn't he? After all, he didn't just vote for this or campaign against that, he signed the inspiration for Obamacare into law, then touted it as a national solution for health care. It was only recently that he edited that stuff out of his book and his public discourse.
Not true, what Jim is referring to is a difference between the hardcover and softcover edition and here is what Romney wrote in the original hardcover edition.
"My own preference would be to let each state fashion its own program to meet the distinct needs of its citizens. States could follow the Massachusetts model of they choose, or they could develop plans of their own. These plans, tested in the state 'laboratories of democracy' could be evaluated, compared, improved upon, and adopted by others. But the creation of a national plan is the direction in which Washington is currently moving. If a national approach is ultimately adopted, we should permit individuals to purchase insurance from companies in other states in order to expand choice and competition.
"What we accomplished surprised us: 440,000 people who previously had no health insurance became insured, many paying their own way. We made it possible for each newly insured person to have better care, and ultimately healthier and longer lives. From now on, no one in Massachusetts has to worry about losing his or her health insurance if there is a job change or a loss in income; everyone is insured and pays only what he or she can afford. It's portable, affordable health insurance — something people have been talking about for decades. We can accomplish the same thing for everyone in the country, and it can be done without letting government take over health care."
The only thing edited was the last line which reads "[a]nd it was done without government taking over health care” in the softcover edition. It’s pretty clear from the context that Romney was arguing for State-level solutions to fixing health care (along with allowing consumers to purchase health insurance across State lines) which is what he ran on in 2008 and is running on again in 2012.
"Medical is $2,400/month."
It would take me years and years to accumulate enough medical bills to justify that monthly expense.
At 2400 a month, this tells us that you have a plan that covers everything under the sun with very little deductible.
Unless you KNOW, that you or someone in your family has a serious medical condition that could arise in the future......why in the world are you throwing your money away like that?
You could for a fraction buy a catastrophic coverage plan and pay cash for the small and ordinary health care instances. Just get coverage for those big ticket items or those things like pregnancy coverage that you think you might actually use.
Or....you could until ObamaCare takes that option away from you.
Instead of $2400, pay $1200 and bank the remaining $1200 monthly. In less than one year you would have the $10,000 deductible banked. Each year after that is gravy.
$14,000 annually for 15 years with compound interest would go a long way towards covering those small out of pocket bills and your catastrophic coverage plan would handle the big stuff.
If only there were a program something like that...Oh...wait.....we have it. An HSA plan!. Soon to be eliminated by Obama.
I don't much care for Newt Gingrich, but it's hard to fault the statement.
In a hard libertarian universe, those who have neither insurance nor money would suffer the consequences of denial of treatment (unless a charity chose to pay for it or volunteers to provide it).
In this universe it's not going to happen. Which means, the problem of free riding is all too real.
Although it's hard to see how a mandate for insurers to ignore pre-existing conditions solves it.
In this universe it's not going to happen.
In the universe in which I'm typing this comment, the two things you mentioned already happen. If you're suggesting they don't happen frequently enough nor in large enough numbers to cover everyone we currently need covered, I would suggest that in the hard libertarian universe you postulate, there would a quite a few less "needy" as there would be no cultures of entitlement or victimhood.
"At 2400 a month, this tells us that you have a plan that covers everything under the sun with very little deductible."
It doesn't tell you any such thing, but your willingness to presume you know my circumstances better than I speaks very poorly for you.
In a hard libertarian universe, those who have neither insurance nor money would suffer the consequences of denial of treatment (unless a charity chose to pay for it or volunteers to provide it).
Which has been the system in place for thousands and thousands of years. The US didn't have public health care until recently.
We seem to have survived by relying on friends, family and like Blanche...the kindness of strangers.
@ Marshal
Get off your high horse. I'm a retired financial advisor and former insurance agent. I don't know you and you aren't my client.
However, I KNOW what a policy costs and unless you have ....as I have already stated... pre existing conditions or know that you are going to develop a serious condition, you are throwing your money away.
AND with that type of expenditure, you are better off financially to purchase a catastrophic plan or one that only covers the instances that you need and bank the money.
Period.
Marshal,
This is why "insurance" for routine expenses isn't insurance-insurance.
And I'm with the rest here regarding your medical coverage expenses. You've stated a number that is very much an outlier, so unless you're willing to explain it, you're just today's Debbie Bosanek.
DBQ
"Marshal
Get off your high horse."
I decided to stay off it. With you and Mary occupying it I thought three might be too many.
It's interesting though that you can claim you know my circumstances well enough to judge (and you're wrong) and use the phrase "on your high horse", but manage to not apply it to yourself.
Further, not only am I not throwing money away but even if I were it has nothing to do with anything under discussion. I think you should try to figure out why you're making an idiot of yourself attacking something that doesn't even pertain to the discussion.
I think you should try to figure out why you're making an idiot of yourself attacking something that doesn't even pertain to the discussion.
I thought the discussion was about health insurance, who has it, who doesn't, who pays if you don't. Can the government make you have coverage etc.
YOU are the one who offered up the exorbitant amount that you are paying.
:-D
Marshall might have a lot of dependents or live in an area with higher insurance costs/limited choices, or be in a situation (self employed/small employer) in which he does not benefit from a large association and their discounted insurance rates. I don't find his quote that outrageous. About ten years ago, my family of six would have cost $1700 per month with no pre-existing conditions with the biggest insurer in our area. Since the premiums around here go up about 15% per year, I imagine it would be around Marshall's quote now.
"YOU are the one who offered up the exorbitant amount that you are paying."
I offered this amount on a separate topic to make a narrow point about the relative prices of health vs home and auto insurance. Consider each of the items you listed
(I thought the discussion was about health insurance, who has it, who doesn't, who pays if you don't. Can the government make you have coverage etc.)
and identify which one is effected by how much I pay for non-government insurance?
No, I think you attacked it because instead of taking my earlier point in the spirit of the conversation you lashed out at whatever you thought you could reach.
What annoys me most is that Newt assumes (and he's not the only one, of course) that anyone who doesn't buy insurance plans on stiffing the hospital.
All of these schemes to nationalize, to one degree or another, our health insurance are predicated on the belief that we are all deadbeats now.
$14,000 annually for 15 years with compound interest
0.05% interest compounding for 15 years doesn't get you much. :)
Of course, you could play stocks and hope for the best.
OK cynicism is today's theme
PS Newt is getting a history lesson
$14,000 annually for 15 years with compound interest
0.05% interest compounding for 15 years doesn't get you much. :)
You think interest rates are always going to be this low? Did you forget the Carter years interest rates? 18% + for a house loan. 23% for a personal unsecured loan or a car loan. 10 year bank certificates of deposit at 8% or more. Fixed annuities at 10%???
Happy days are going to be here again. Don't forget to dust off your polyester suits!!
Happy days are going to be here again. Don't forget to dust off your polyester suits!!
I never had a polyester suit. My brother had a polyester leisure suit, however.
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