Kenza Drider, a 32-year-old mother of three, was famously bold enough to appear on French television to oppose the law before it came into force. She refuses to take off her niqab – "My husband doesn't dictate what I do, much less the government" – but she says she now lives in fear of attack. "I still go out in my car, on foot, to the shops, to collect my kids. I'm insulted about three to four times a day," she says. Most say, "Go home"; some say, "We'll kill you." One said: "We'll do to you what we did to the Jews." In the worst attack, before the law came in, a man tried to run her down in his car.Via Metafilter, where my son John quotes what I wrote about it back in April.
"I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through before the Nazi roundups in France. When they went out in the street they were identified, singled out, they were vilified. Now that's happening to us."
२० सप्टेंबर, २०११
It's now 5 months since France banned the full-face veil.
How's that going?
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People have the freedom to cover themselves. Or not.
Fred4Pres said...
People have the freedom to cover themselves. Or not.... Except in Islamic countries
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This is the PETA women half naked in the square.
This is GreenPeace chained to the trees.
This is a Slut Walk.
""I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through..."
That's a start. Now tell your friends at mosque.
The women's voluntary submission to being made into prisoners of their gender is the strength behind the Muslim cult.
The French are wise to ban that show of submission.
The day the Muslim's women demand their freedom is the day Muslim insanity falls.
If you are going to ban the niqab, then you need to ban face coverings in general. No skimasks, scarves across the face regardless of the temperature, no large goggles, etc.
"I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through before the Nazi roundups in France. When they went out in the street they were identified, singled out, they were vilified. Now that's happening to us."
Oddly enough, that's still happening in Europe and the MidEast.
OK, I'll agree the law is anti-Muslim.
But the point is that many French are anti-Muslim---for reasons we find in news reports, to start.
Those woman who defy the law are bringing unwanted attention on themselves. They lose either way, apparently.
I wonder if she (or your average niquib wearing woman) had the experiences that she lists before this ban went into place. It seems somewhat absurd to me to suppose that people were perfectly accepting of her decision to cover up before the law, but afterwards, they changed their minds.
That said, it bothers me that she gets threats, but it doesn't bother me if people are insulting towards her. I've no problem with social condemnation of something that is symbolic of misogyny and oppression. (I do have a problem with the ban, though, for basically the same reasons that Althouse discussed originally, and for general principles of freedom of religion.)
- Lyssa
They lose either way, apparently.
Any of them with any intelligence whatsoever will realize it's just a matter of time. French-French birthrates are below the sustainable rate, while French-Arab Immigrant (assuming them to be mostly Muslim) are having outbirthing them severely.
In 50 years, regardless of what's done now, if the French don't start having little cheesemonkeys, they will be bred out of relevance re policy in France.
This is a European problem.
I hear Drider has gone into hiding. Now, she uncovers her face when going out in public.
are having outbirthing them severely
lol, never take a call and come back to a comment without detailed proof-reading.
I'm cynical enough about the sources that I have no reason to accept the woman's statements (if indeed they were made) as true.
The Guardian is completely untrustworthy. It's obsessed with the leftist "bigotry" theme.
The woman may be a propaganda plant of the Jihadis.
Poor France. They once said that Algeria was part of France, but now parts of France resemble Algeria.
They wanted immigrants, but they got colonizers. And now France- le grand nation de la Mission Civilisatrice- has been colonized.
When comes the second French Revolution, all French women shall wear the hijab when in public.
And, they shall enjoy doing so
Given what that garb represents - the repression of women, denying them the right to be recognized as a distinct person, denying them the right to ever feel sunlight on their face, stripping them of their humanity - I am in favor of the ban, in spite of the slippery slope ramifications.
The problem I have is - the law ends up punishing the WOMEN - though it is intended to help them. And this is how it is in every single society, isn't it? Women are kept down, punished, and in muslim nations beaten, stoned, and who knows what else. It's a strange human dynamic. Why?
If a woman wears a burkha - arrest the husband or father. That oughtta cure it. If you really want to send the message - and that's what this law is.
And btw - Of course they're going to say they like it. It's all they know. It's safe, it protects them from attention, beatings, and death. No?
captcha: prons
"We'll do to you what we did to the Jews."
Now that grand-père's passed on, we can stop pretending that everyone was in the Resistance.
If a woman wears a burkha - arrest the husband or father. That oughtta cure it.
And, you'll still have women under the power of a man telling them whether or not to wear a burkha, depending on the law. You didn't think this through very well.
"I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through before the Nazi roundups in France. When they went out in the street they were identified, singled out, they were vilified. Now that's happening to us."
Soon she will learn just how savage the French can be when they get in touch with their inner asshole. Its just a question of time.
Oh, please. The ban caused discrimination?
What about the many girls and women who testified on the ban that they were glad of it, being under the often violent control of their male family members?
But they aren't anti-West activists, so the Guardian, like our left, ignores them.
I think the attackers should cover their faces with ski masks.
"I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through..."
Bullshit. Jewish women never advertised their Jewishness, niqabbed women show off their creepiness.
On the other hand, the French should ignore them, treat them as non-persons that they are, but not a stupid law to stop them.
Liberty is anathema to France unless it is white France kultur.
Before everyone decides to dump on the French niqab wearers, it might be a good idea to remember that this is France we're talking about here.
French secularism, from its very birth, seems to have a hard time dealing with true believers of any sort, e.g. google war in the Vendee.
Do they treat pious Muslims like shit? Yep. Do they treat kippa wearing Jews like shit? Yep. The same with evangelical Christians, or even Catholics who have the temerity to do more than "faire l'apparition" at Mass more than Christmas and Easter.
The reason is obvious: faith is a moral center outside of the secular French state, and as such it must be ridiculed.
The American republic was founded with the support of the colonial churches. The French republic was established in a war to the death against its churches.
30 years ago France had a war with Greenpeace and almost lost.
Today they're having a war with Moslem women and it's starting to look like someone's hearing the rattle of heavy vehicles up around Sedan.
I think covering your face in public is profoundly anti-social behavior. It is perhaps a sign that french culture lacks confidence when they resort to passing laws when social pressure aught to achieve the same end.
Another question is of whether it will work. Probably most Islamic women will obey the law. Some subset will deal with the law by seldom leaving their home, they will be part of a smaller and more extreme minority.
Well, you can say France has done something no other society in the world has been able to: Make muslims sympathetic with Jews.
""I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through before the Nazi roundups in France. When they went out in the street they were identified, singled out, they were vilified. Now that's happening to us."
I think covering your face in public is profoundly anti-social behavior.
Gene Simmons and crew would disagree :) Only slightly off-topic, one of the first vinyl albums I ever owned was Kiss' "Destroyer", roughly when I was about 9. On whim while stuck in traffic the other day, I fired up Rhapsody (possibly one the best things ever to happen to smartphones, which are themselves one the best things ever to happen to traffic jams) and listened to it.
O-M-G Completely overt sexuality, in your face and without shame. I remembered each song clearly, though I'd not really listened through the whole thing since, oh, 1981 or so? I remember the lyrics and the music, but it was quite stunning to access that part of my mind that HAD NO FUCKING CLUE what they were talking about back then.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled French-bashing.
"... "I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through before the Nazi roundups in France...."
Although I shouldn't have, that made me laugh out loud.
What a dolt.
France, like much of Western Europe has become hyper secularized, so its no surprise she might get such a reaction. Christian zeal has been pretty much purged over there so religious fundamentalists from any creed should just expect to be looked down upon, particularly if you wear it on your sleeve. Or head for that matter.
Cest le vie.
If a woman wears a veil because she thinks it's an appropriate way to honor her religious beliefs I think it's a fine thing and none of my business (although she needs to reveal herself in cases of law enforcement or security).
If a woman wears a veil because her husband, uncle or son will beat her if she does not then it very definitely IS my business.
Someone pointed out the other day that Europe had traded 8 million Jews for 20 million Moslems, and then listed out the Nobel Prizes won by each group. The only place where the Moslems seem to have done ok is in Peace Prizes. Other than that, 1.2 billion or so of them have a mere handful, and the Jews seem to have several times that in almost each category.
Some trade.
Much of western Europe seems to be waking up to the reality that this Moslem invasion is not likely to be beneficial to their way of life, to their history, etc. And, they need to stop it, one way or another, if they possibly can, which they may be to late to do.
Not sure though if this ban will help or hurt their real cause.
"...Only slightly off-topic, one of the first vinyl albums I ever owned was Kiss' "Destroyer", roughly when I was about 9...."
It wasn't my first but that album was my prize among my KISS collection. God of Thunder, all time favorite and was the one song that convinced my mom that they were Satanists. Shout it out loud was a close second for best track. Probably best artwork of all their albums.
Yeah, is there any reason to believe this?
Though, the French are kind of quaint with their racism. I saw a movie recently (Le nom de gens) where a man whose Jewish grandmother had been sent to Auschwitz hooked up with a girl whose mom had rebelliously hooked up with an Algerian.
They were both far left, fortunately, so there was that.
No, the tension was all about the expected racism. How outré! A quarter Jew and a half Algerian get together!
Really? This is from the France that lectures us on intolerance?
Well, cute movie anyway. Too bad they're all dooooomed!
Scott M said...
They lose either way, apparently.
Any of them with any intelligence whatsoever will realize it's just a matter of time. French-French birthrates are below the sustainable rate, while French-Arab Immigrant (assuming them to be mostly Muslim) are having outbirthing them severely.
In 50 years, regardless of what's done now, if the French don't start having little cheesemonkeys, they will be bred out of relevance re policy in France.
This is a European problem.
=================
Only if you subscribe to the belief that democracy and majority rule are notions that are immutable, unreversable in any society.
They are not.
And it isn't even about accepting what "minority rights" remain to you in a land swamped with alien invaders that demographically tips to the invaders favor.
The natives generally fight at a certain point.
Outside France and Switzerland, the democratic tradition is not strong in Europe. The Europeans are also not given to slavish obsequience to lawyers who interpret their Constitutions as "sacred parchment". Their Constitutions are readily changable and periodically revised.
And even worse than America, Europe is showing the failure of democracies to manage themselves with fiscal sanity when majorities access the nations money coffers and have the power to vote to borrow themselves money.
I don't doubt for a second that when push comes to shove, the native Europeans, those not the descendents of recent immigration from Northern Africa and the Middle East, will fight tooth and nail. It's going to be very ugly and will go on for a long, long time.
Lyssa,
"It seems somewhat absurd to me to suppose that people were perfectly accepting of her decision to cover up before the law, but afterwards, they changed their minds. "
No one thinks the current voicers-of-disapproval were "perfectly accepting" of her before; but surely adding contempt of the law will move some people across the line from silent to verbal disapproval won't it?
"... I don't doubt for a second that when push comes to shove, the native Europeans, those not the descendents of recent immigration from Northern Africa and the Middle East, will fight tooth and nail. It's going to be very ugly and will go on for a long, long time..."
Oh I don't think that will happen. When that time cones there won't be enough natives of fighting age to put up much of a fight. As for fighting at all, it seems that has been pretty much bred out of the Western Europeans. Unless the immigrant community there adopts Western societal norms, and they appear to have little desire or incentive to do so, you can pretty much kiss Europe as we knew it goodbye. If its lucky it may end up like Turkey writ large.
Hoosier - The lethal aspect of the fight has already started. Norway. With a signal that not only Muslim rule and Sharia will be violently resisted, but also the Quislings that want mass immigration and MultiKulti jammed down the native's throats.
The white natives of Europe really have nowhere else to run to.
Hoosier,
Don't forget those eastern Europeans. They strike me as a rowdy bunch.
When I see another woman wearing a burqa in the United States I want to ask her why she would wear something that says either, "I believe God hates women" or "I allow myself to be abused" or "I consider myself worthless" or all of the above. Maybe she could wear a t-shirt stating that sentiment and feel more comfortable in hot weather and in the heated political climate?
I have talked with a woman from Syria who asserted that it was because she was so beautiful. But she didn't look convinced. And she wasn't. That argument has to be more persuasive when all the other women are going around masked as well.
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