"Somehow, that’s a nice, final touch. But it speaks to what bin Laden was: a bag of bones and meat. A body, like any other. Most of what changed in this country after 9/11 was our choice, not his. And his death is a reminder that changing it back -- or revising it to better fit our future -- is, similarly, our choice, not his. We’ve killed him, but we haven’t revisited the ways in which he changed us, or the ways in which wechanged us in response to his attack. Maybe it’s time we did."
The lefty meme is: It's all about us.
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४७७ टिप्पण्या:
477 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»They should have cremated him like the Israelis did to Nazi war criminals who were executed.
But feeding him to the crabs and sea leeches is okay. They have to eat too.
So the US gov't is saying OBL is a typical Muslim, so we must respect that?
Doesn't that reak of Islamophobia?
It's always all about us. Everything, from the 9/11 hijackers, to the barbarians who mutilate their daughters, to people whose pathologies lead them to a neverending cycle of poverty, is a reaction to some policy of action of ours.
They can't conceive that people who don't look like them are independent moral actors.
Obama says Osama isn't a Muslim.
So why are we burying him as a Muslim?
Responses have been highly politicized across the spectrum. Current triumphalism dumb.
Ick, I can see this melting down into another stupid partisan argument. "The right's not being properly deferential to The Won!" "Yes we are, he just sucks!"
Congratulation to the president for keeping the heat on and getting the job done. It feels good, enjoy the moment. But let's not pretend it means more than it does.
Whatever happened to the separation of Church and State?
I still think his body should have been hung by the heels on the Mall.
The team who got Osama.
Thank you.
If by "in accordance with Islamic law and tradition," you mean shot off the steam catapult of the USS Ronald Reagan then yes, yes it was...
He is dead, that is enough.
Trey
Exactly, Kevin, if Osama hijacked a great religion of peace, why are we burying him as one of its legitimate adherents?
IMHO Obama can't help himself: he always has to separate himself from Bush, so he is going to elevate himself (he thinks) by going the PC route with this mass murderer's corpse.
Actually, it is unfortunate that we are not handling him Black Jack Pershing style...true scum deserves no respect.
"bin Laden's body would be handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition."
Well, aside from the bit where we sewed up his corpse in pigskin before tossing it overboard...
Interesting point (from Fred's link):
"I hate the bin Laden’s death will be politicized — necessarily — because this is who the left is. But I am thankful that the politicization likely won’t involve prolonged scrutiny of covert techniques — making this one of those very rare times where having a “progressive” President with a sycophantic media might actually serve the country’s long term interests.
Because trust me: had bin Laden been killed during the later years of Bush, the mainstream press would be out looking for military or CIA malfeasance, raising concerns about their having violated some “international law” or other, asking “questions” about methodology that would have led them to publish leaks they knew would be harmful to national security"
Like a domestic abuse victim always thinks it's her fault her husband beats her, the left always thinks it's America's fault they hate us and attack us.
"Don't take him to jail, officer. It's my fault he gave me this shiner. I just need to change my ways."
Original Mike - but that's the BS game that the left plays with national security. They basically say: elect our guy or we will deliberately f*ck America's security policy. Oh sure, there are the fringe Code Pinkos and Cindy Sheehans who actually believe, but for more "sophisticated" Desms just use them as a weapon against GOP pols.
Definitely should have put that one to some super-secret internet group of young lefties.
Read a report this a.m. that raid was delayed a day due to wx. If original timing held, Obama would have been able to announce during WH media event Sat night.
If true that's a new low for Obama.
Maybe he wanted to dispatch Osama and Trump at the same time.
But why should bin Laden's body be treated in accordance with Islamic tradition? We are told, repeatedly, that his murdering ideology is anathema to Islam, which is a religion of peace. Do most Muslims believe that unbelievers and heretics should be buried in accordance with Islamic tradition?
Glenn Greenwald feesl a swell when he thinks of hot sweaty boys at Carnivale, but don't go there.
They dumped Osama in the ocean instead of cremating him (which is forbidden by Islam). Meh.
Osama bin Crabbait works for me.
I have to disagree with all these righties who are up in arms that we would treat Bin Laden in accordance with the laws of his religion.
First of all, treating the dead well whenever you reasonably can is standard operating procedure for all civil peoples.
Second, treat other people the way you want to be treated -- you may have heard of this concept -- is the bedrock of our society in law, religion, and trite interaction.
Get over yourselves. This is how we roll.
As usual lefty speak is opaque to the sane mind.
So the US gov't is saying OBL is a typical Muslim, so we must respect that?
Doesn't that reak of Islamophobia?
Yes.
We spent the last ten years saying that OBL was not legitimately Muslim. What happened?
I'm not saying that we should have mutilated his body or some other barbaric thing along the lines of what his followers do.
I'm just saying that we need not have worried about getting him buried within 24 hours. We have no such obligation.
"I have to disagree with all these righties who are up in arms"
I don't see people up in arms. I see them pointing out self-serving hypocrisy.
Was Lara Logan's body handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition?
Drag his ass, dead or alive, back to a US base, tie each hand to the wheel of an artillery piece, fire the nasty thing, and let the birds and scavengers feed on the remains.
Then present a video of the procedure to anyone who lost someone on 9/11, the Cole, in the embassy bombings, and the Khobar Towers.
Fred4Pres said...
The team who got Osama.
Still can't figure why use Team Six. Are the Army units stretched too far?
Liberalism is the Religion practiced , or at least preached, by atheists. All religions offer to make a profound event of death rituals for the believers. What Klein conveniently ignores is that Jihadist Muslims want to attend his death ritual and personally saw off his head slowly while screaming how glorious it is to please allah.
Salamandyr: "It's always all about us."
Yes, that seems to be the theme of the day in certain quarters. It's the flip side of the 'don't let a good crisis go to waste' approach.
Come on, Freeman. We are talking about a group of people -- Islamofascists -- who managed to get Denmark flags to Pakistan to burn. There's no reason to give anybody any reason to get pissed off about Bin Laden now that he's dead. Why create a martyr at the very last instant?
I liken this to the rules in college football about taunting. You already just scored. Give the ball to the ref and move on.
I was happy to read his body was treated in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition because it speaks to the basic human decency of the people who killed him. No dragging through the streets of Sudan, no cutting off the head while still alive -- on TV. Just a quick death.
Now that I've read all the comments, I guess I could've just said: What Seven Machos said.
Although I would have preferred a Mussolini approach, I am glad that Luca Brazzi now has a fellow thug for company. Apparently burial at sea is not quite as Islamic practice and tradition as Obama and friends would think.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42859267/ns/world_news-mideast/42857970
self-serving hypocrisy
What is self-serving hypocritical about being respectful of the body of the political figure you just assassinated?
Every time I see the name Ezra Klein I want to vomit. This post didn't help that feeling one bit.
Come on, Freeman. We are talking about a group of people -- Islamofascists -- who managed to get Denmark flags to Pakistan to burn. There's no reason to give anybody any reason to get pissed off about Bin Laden now that he's dead. Why create a martyr at the very last instant?
The WH says they don't want to inflame the Muslim World.
If they mean they don't want to inflame Islamofacscists, they should say that.
Instead, they are feeding the stereotype. The Muslim World wasn't inflamed by the assault on Lara Logan. But they may be inflamed that a terrorist may not get a burial within 24 hours?
Really? The Muslim World?
"Ezra Klein "felt a swell of patriotism" when he read that "bin Laden's body would be handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition.""
Yet he hasn't commented on "International Law" or the fact that Obama has broken every campaign promise.
Funny that. Isn't it?
edutcher, maybe they won the straw vote.
Ezra Klein "felt a swell of patriotism" when he read that "bin Laden's body would be handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition.
What a strange response. I cannot comprehend the mindset that, upon reading this, swells with "patriotism."
It suggests to me that the concept of patriotism is so foreign to the lefty mindset that they can only apply it awkwardly and in situations where it doesn't really have any meaning.
I was happy to read his body was treated in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition because it speaks to the basic human decency of the people who killed him
Exactly.
Once justice has been served (I really hate that phrase) there is no need to descend into barbarian acts of mutilating the body. It only lowers us to their level.
I feel the same way about the murdering monsters that we have in our own civil law system. I am not opposed to the death penalty. Some people just need to be killed and put away from society. If we must do it, it should be in a humane way.
There's a difference between BEING RESPECTFUL to the body (which we should do as a matter of our own humanity), and making a big deal about how we treated the body in accordance with the dictates of Islamic religious requirements. The former I have no problem with. The latter is, I think, horribly inconsistent with the message that Bin Laden's ideology is totally contradictory to "true" Islam. If Islam is truly a religion of peace, then Bin Laden's actions were those of a heretic of the highest order, and a large swathe of the Muslim world needs to be (repeatedly) confronted with that fact. By treating him as if he WERE a Muslim, a true follower of the Prophet, that massively undermines the claim that he was a terrible, horrible heretic.
"So why are we burying him as a Muslim?"
Burials are for the living. Ideas about how to treat a corpse are not for the sake of the corpse.
Messing up corpses is not what we do, either because we have standards or because we want others to think that we do.
Maybe you'd prefer his head on a pike outside the White House?
Or at Ground Zero?
Or at Ground Zero?
Or at Ground Zero?
Ezra Klein "felt a swell of patriotism" when he read that "bin Laden's body would be handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition.
I wonder if Ezra notes the irony that the terrorist that the left continually insists did not act in the name of Islam was nevertheless, buried in accordance with 'Islamic practice and tradition'.
I'm wondering if folks in the WH are thinking re: their left of center allies
c'mon, you guys are ruining it for us. Can't you just cheer and move on!?
I bet they're wishing that more than a few left pundits could sing this song.
Ezra Klein wants to be a fireman when he grows up.
In other news 72 virgins just said "I was saving myself for this?"
Given Klein's "swell of patriotism", an emotional response of nationalism at the careful treatment of the body of our enemy, one can't help but wonder if Klein had an equal swell of patriotic anger at the treatment of Danial Pearl.
I'm guessing not.
So not burying someone within 24 hours is barbarism? Oh, the humanity!
I'm fine with him being buried however. I'm irritated by the Admin saying it was done so as not to inflame the Muslim World. I want them to admit what is between the lines of what they are saying.
I'm not really a death penalty supporter for normal murders, but I've always thought that, when someone commits actsof terrorism against a whole people, it is benificial for there to be one aknd for it to be public. The people should see it. Where that's not possible, such as here, the people should stil get to see the body, to really see that he is gone. Its not so much to prove it (there wil always be conspiracy theories), but there's something psychologically satisfying to se it. I think we deserved that here. We had absolutely no obligaton to put his religious desires before that.
Ann, as I noted above, there's a big difference between showing respect to the body, out of our own humanity (i.e., not planting his head on a pike at Ground Zero or dragging the body through the streets of Sudan), and treating his body in accordance with the dictates of Islamic tradition.
"In order to prevent his burial place from becoming a shrine or a focal point for his followers, Bin Laden's body was quietly disposed of at sea after his native country, Saudi Arabia, declined to accept his corpse."
That's a very different statement, but no less respectful to the body... unless you want to claim that he WAS Islamic, in fact, and not a massive heretic, and thus was entitled to be treated as a Muslim in his death.
I wonder who on the ship was tasked with washing the body according to ritual.
Meh. Fish has to eat as well as the worm, as The Outlaw Josey Wales might say. I don't care what they do with the body, and I agree that we shouldn't lower ourselves to the level of those who drag corpses through the streets.
But I'm not sure about the fact that we felt compelled to publicly state that we bowed to the fanatical religion behind the barbarism we're fighting in our treatment of the corpse. I think a better tactic here would have been to state that the body was treated with the respect we give to that of any body, and leave it to their imaginations.
They'll whip themselves into a frenzy over this no matter what we did, after all.
So not burying someone within 24 hours is barbarism? Oh, the humanity!
I'm not sure if that was addressed to me, however......
I was talking about those who want to mutilate the body. Put it on display. Hand him from his heels. Drag the dead body through the street. Cut off his head and put it on a pike.
Those are acts of barbarism, not the acts of people who have a moral compass. Actions like those only lower us to our enemy's level.
Personally, I think they could have waited for a while to dump him into the ocean or otherwise disposed of the body, and should have shown a few photos (tastefully edited of course lol). Now, we will have to deal with the people who will STILL refuse to think that Osama is dead because they didn't get to SEE the evidence.
I am certainly not calling for his head to be on a pike. That is beneath us.
I am calling for us to not feel compelled to make a big show of burying him in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition.
I'm with MayBee.
Via Jake Tapper:
The process of his burial at sea was done in accordance with Muslim law -- a Muslim seaman conducted the process and said the proper prayers, with bin Laden's body wrapped in the appropriate way.
Administration officials say it's important to do this so as to not inflame the Muslim world.
The admin has said it was done out of fear, and not out of principle of who we are.
Kudos to Seal Team 6. I have fond memories of them back in the day. Master Chief "Sam" Houston of 6 taught the advanced SCUBA course at InterAmerican University and I think his name is on my NAUI certificate.
John Henry
Administration officials say it's important to do this so as to not inflame the Muslim world.
That is just delusional. There is no way that the Muslim world won't be inflamed. It was silly to base foreign policy on our adhering to their Muslim laws.
They won't believe us when we say that the body was treated according to Muslim law. It doesn't matter to them at all what we say or do.
These people get inflamed over cartoons, for crying out loud. It is foolish to think that ANYTHING we do will stop them from acting out.
The admin has said it was done out of fear, and not out of principle of who we are.
Well, that's too bad in a way because we shouldn't ONLY act out of fear. If we don't remember the principles of who we are, we are lost.
You wouldn't find me within 300 miles of any large city in the US for quite some time or taking a plane. Just being prudent.
I'm not sure if that was addressed to me, however......
DBQ- no, it was directed more at Althouse for her 11:41. I used the word barbarism to match the head on a pike rhetoric.
I agree with your 11:59. Plus, I think the WH is talking out of both sides of its mouth. They want us to know the "Muslim World" does not support terrorism. They want the "Muslim World" to know they handled a murderous terrorist according to Muslim tradition.
Why would the "Muslim World" care? If we care, let's say we are doing it for us. The admin is obviously quite scared of the Muslim World, no?
I guarantee not a single Imam anywhere in the world will make a public statement celebrating the killing of Bin Laden. So much for PatHMV's contention that Islam is a religion of peace and that that makes Osama a heretic to that religion.
Do they know where he is buried so the next Republican administration can exhume him to identify him with DNA evidence?
Is it true he was buried at sea? Why was that? They certainly could have preserved his body to be sure of the identification beyond a reasonable doubt. What was the rush? Did they at least keep DNA samples for people like me who do not believe anything this administrations has to say about anything?
It just seems a little fishy to me.
No pun intended.
I'm sure Althouse is so proud we treated the Bin Laden corpse with the same dignity that we'd give a US serviceman.
Excuse me while I hurl.
I do want to see pictures of this dead fucker though.
For us and for the Muzzies.
I want his face to be twisted and his mouth open and his eyes blown out.
Oh and a video of the fight would be delish. You know there is a video.
How great would it be to see his face before he dies?
The admin is obviously quite scared of the Muslim World, no?
Dude, get your head out of your ass. We have seen plenty of coordinated terrorist attacks on Western targets. We've also seen the phenomenon of single Muslim dude snapping. The whole point here is to try to prevent terrorist attacks. We want Muslims inside our tent pissing out.
Or are you still clinging to the fantasy that we are going to just take on Islam?
Anyway, please never run for political office.
Head on a pike at Ground Zero would be perfect.
This body is also an important piece of evidence. Religious traditions do not dictate that we start teaching creationism in schools. Likewise, religious traditions should not dictate that we throw forensic science out the window. Now who is fighting the war on science?
For the record, I think the sea burial story is just a cover story. There is no way the CIA threw such an important piece of evidence into the sea.
And don't give me some bullshit that they were afraid to bury him somewhere that the barbarians would make a shrine. They could have just put him in the fridge between Ted Williams and Walt Disney until they needed to defrost him to prove that he was still dead.
@DBQ
"These people get inflamed over cartoons, for crying out loud. It is foolish to think that ANYTHING we do will stop them from acting out."
As long as we fit their definition of 'infidel', we will remain sworn enemies of radical islam.
Doesn't anyone think the radicals would be pissed enough that he's been snuffed? I agree that mutilation, etc is barbaric but dealing with the body in a 'respectful' way is an important distinction between radical islam and the west.
Ezra Klein? Isn't he one of Rachel Maddow's eunuch Nancy-Boys?
Burials are for the living. Ideas about how to treat a corpse are not for the sake of the corpse.
Messing up corpses is not what we do, either because we have standards or because we want others to think that we do.
From Blind Man's Bluff, on the salvage of a Soviet Golf class sub from the Pacific depths
"Someone at the CIA mentioned that the crew of the Glomar had videotaped the burial at sea they had given to the six recovered Golf submariners. Gates...brought the tape with him to his first meeting with Boris Yeltsin. Two weeks later the tape aired on Russian national television. The Golf families got to see American sailors standing at attention as both national anthems were played and as the Americans added Russian prayers to the naval service for the dead." First confirmation for the families - from any source - that their men were lost at sea.
Much, much different circumstances then and now, but in both cases the respectful treatment is about the standards we hold ourselves to.
Today I do not feel any swell of patriotism. Rule of thumb, if Ezra Klein is feeling patriotic, something horrible is happening.
Dude, get your head out of your ass. We have seen plenty of coordinated terrorist attacks on Western targets. We've also seen the phenomenon of single Muslim dude snapping. The whole point here is to try to prevent terrorist attacks. We want Muslims inside our tent pissing out.
Thank you for your helpful advice and thoughtful comment.
What I am trying to address is the double talk from the White House.
What's good for Obama is bad for America.
Seven Machos said...
I have to disagree with all these righties who are up in arms that we would treat Bin Laden in accordance with the laws of his religion.
First of all, treating the dead well whenever you reasonably can is standard operating procedure for all civil peoples.
Second, treat other people the way you want to be treated -- you may have heard of this concept -- is the bedrock of our society in law, religion, and trite interaction.
Get over yourselves. This is how we roll.
I'm going to guess that you've never killed anyone in battle. Correct? This might come as a surprise to you, but we do try to bury the dead, except sometimes you might want to leave one of their hands above ground clutching your unit patch. For you see, in battle there is no time for political correctness. What do you think you'll see, when you recover one of your own dead? A proper Christian burial?
Gads what an aweful though process/pretzel of a paragraph...
We need to examine who we were before we were made to change ourselves and change the way we change our changes and who changed who and how they change in response to out changed changes... Do people really think this way? Blechhh...
To sum up:
"Osama bin Laden is not a real Muslim. He does not fight for Islam. He has nothing to do with it."
AND
"We did make sure to handle his dead body according to Islamic tradition because the Muslims would probably go crazy if we didn't."
...scene at the Oval Office...
CIA director: "On the one hand, Mr. President, if we hold onto the body, it could inflame certain Muslims because it would violate deeply held beliefs about burial of a Muslim."
Obama: ...chin on hand, like Hamlet...
CIA director: "On the other hand, Mr. President, if we don't provide evidence of the body, it will cause certain Americans who tend to believe in vast conspiracies to invent a vast one here."
CIA director: "Mr. President, you must decide quickly."
Obama: ...chin on hand, like Hamlet...
CIA director: "Mr. President?"
Obama: ...chin on hand, like Hamlet...
@D.D. Driver
"For the record, I think the sea burial story is just a cover story. There is no way the CIA threw such an important piece of evidence into the sea."
Maybe, but I'm guessing there was a thorough documentation of what the Seal team left the compound with.
That being said, once their were pictures, tissue samples, autopsy, etc etc, it is plausible that they went ahead and performed a traditional muslim burial. He may very well be fish food.
His brain belongs in a jar on a shelf right next to the jar labeled 'Abby'.
Why create a martyr at the very last instant?
He was shot in the head during a gun battle. That's kind of the textbook definition of a martyr.
Burials are for the living. Ideas about how to treat a corpse are not for the sake of the corpse.
Wrong. Once again Althouse demonstrates that she doesn't get religion.
Burial, in the Christian religion at least, is about belief in the resurrection of the body and about honoring those beliefs and carrying out the wishes of the decedent. Burial of the dead is one of the seven corporal works of mercy--it's a mercy for the decedent, not for the worker.
Freeman -- What's more important to you, truth or political victory without bloodshed?
What's important is defeating Obama and all Democrats. They are a scourge on our nation.
Leo -- Do people with bodies that are not buried not participate in heaven and hell?
Try harder.
And I second Freeman's point. I don't think anyone is advocating him being dragged through the streets or being put on display. I just think its odd that after insisting he hijacked Islam we made sure to follow Islamic tradition in disposing of his remains.
CIA director: "On the other hand, Mr. President, if we don't provide evidence of the body, it will cause certain Americans who tend to believe in vast conspiracies to invent a vast one here."
Try
CIA director: "On the other hand, Mr. President, if we don't provide evidence of the body, it will cause many of his followers to believe that he is still alive and has not been defeated."
"Wrong. Once again Althouse demonstrates that she doesn't get religion.
Burial, in the Christian religion at least, is about belief in the resurrection of the body and about honoring those beliefs and carrying out the wishes of the decedent."
A belief of the living. The dead have no beliefs nor wishes.
I bet the seals were fucking hot.
"We are not at war with Islam. The Islamic World is full of great culture and accomplishments. The Islamic World does not support terrorism"
And
"We were afraid if we didn't bury this terrorist's body the right way, the Islamic World would go batshit"
Personally, I'm not embarrassed to say I'd like to see his head on a pike outside the WH. But as a practical matter, I know it's not a good idea.
"May 2, 2011
Ezra Klein "felt a swell of patriotism" when he read that "bin Laden's body would be handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition."
Whatever. My swell of patriotism came when he was handled in accordance with military practice and tradition.
Where members of the American Justice Department and forensic teams given access to the body? After all Barry and his boys want to treat these terrorists as criminals and put them through the courts. But as soon as they catch the biggest one of all they toss him over the side like chum. Why did they change their style now? What was the big rush to dump him over the side? Where is the proof if someone else comes around to claim he is Osama? As you know someone will? If they kept him in the fridge they could just defrost him and prove that he is dead.
What was the rush?
Strange.
Let me spell it out for you people: there is a tremendous risk right now and in the coming months of a terrorist attack in the United States -- ranging in awfulness from minor (a couple dead people) to catastrophic (nuclear bomb).
It might happen anyway, simply because we killed Bin Laden. If we killed him and didn't treat his body in accordance with basic Muslim principles, the odds would increase greatly because it would inflame many radical Muslims greatly.
Get it?
Bush would have done the same thing. Any president would. This is obvious and full of good sense. If you don't understand it, then you don't understand how politics operates. It's that simple.
You know I have to admit I don't know much about Muslin burial traditions. They must have a lot of burials at sea out there in the desert.
Get it?
Yes, everybody gets it.
I want Obama to stop lecturing us to not see what is obvious.
If you don't understand the importance of making sure your enemy knows you defeated their leader, I'd say you don't understand war.
If they release a full report with the DNA evidence and forensic proof perhaps to a court of law than that is one thing. You know so that independent experts can look at it.
What are the chances that this adminstration will do that?
@Seven: An increased risk in small attacks, I agree with.
But a big attack takes a lot of planning and preparation. And I assume that there are plans in the works. But when those plans come to fruition, do you really think they would abandon them because we treated Osama's body well? I don't.
Also, Islamic tradition does not even require burial within 24 hours. It is only highly recommended because they don't do embalming.
BTW, about this whole "McCain lost me business". I don't believe for a second Ann would ever vote for a Republican, period.
If we killed him and didn't treat his body in accordance with basic Muslim principles, the odds would increase greatly because it would inflame many radical Muslims greatly.
Get it?
Actually no I don’t. I mean seriously Seven, if someone is a ‘radical’ aren’t they already inflamed? We could have buried the guy with full military honors and hauled in 21 guns from Afghanistan for a salute and the radicals would still be inflamed because they’re radicals.
If we’re so concerned that
radical Muslims will be more inflamed than they are now then all that does is invalidate the argument that these terrorists have hijacked their religion for nefarious means.
It is much more likely that they will set up an imposter who will claim to be Osama and the fanatics will believe that he has come again.
If only Obama had gone to church on Easter he might have heard a story about what happens when you don't secure the body of a leader who has fanatic followers. Just sayn'
Today in schools all across America, songs are being sung to praise Dear Leader...
The way politics is done is to wage attack non-stop. This is what I learned from Alinsky.
Oh yeah all the stories abounding today about how Obama showed "guts". Notice how it's all being framed in such a way to show Obama as daring and courageous.
New video suggests that maybe OBL's corpse wasn't given fully respectful treatment.
h/t Iowahawk
I love that video Chip, thanks for sharing.
I love the 72 virgins are hogs that fuck him. Priceless.
I bet the seals were hot.
No trans-species fucking, Titus.
They brought Admiral Nelson's body home in a barrel of port wine. Don't they have at least some malt liquor or something on that aircraft carrier?
Obama...he duh Man!
Obama...he duh Man!
Uh...'ceptin' Iran.
Freeman Hunt said…
"I am calling for us to not feel compelled to make a big show of burying him in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition."
Yes, exactly.
A respectful, but completely secular handling of the remains would have sent a more appropriate message.
Did we do an autopsy? Did we find out whether he'd been ill, as often reported? Had he had surgery in the time he'd been hiding? Was he injured at Tora Bora?
Was he well fed?
What had he been eating?
A belief of the living. The dead have no beliefs nor wishes.
You don't get it either.
When Manfred von Richthofen was shot down and killed behind enemy lines in 1918 he was accorded a full military funeral and a guard of honor fired a salute.
By the end of that war, we were producing up to 10 tons per day of Lewisite, a poison gas said to have the odor of geraniums.
World War I was such a civilized war.
Did they examine his kidney's as it has long been rumored that he had serious kidney problems? Were forensic DNA samples taken to be compared to his DNA profile? Do they have any DNA records? Did anyone contact David Caruso or Gary Sinise?
White House Officials Debate Releasing Photographs of Bin Laden’s Corpse
Yes, White House. Do it immediately before the belief that he is not really dead takes hold in the Muslim world. Now, now, now.
No debate. Those fucking pictures have to come out NOW.
The muzzies will never believe it and we need to see it.
The rational part of me is content to have him dead and buried. The irrational part of me has an image of him, taken alive, and placed in a zoo. Give him a cave as his habitat. Maybe a pond to drink from and bathe in. A sign in front of the cage that tells when his feeding times would be...
Yes, White House. Do it immediately before the belief that he is not really dead takes hold in the Muslim world. Now, now, now.
It's already taken hold in Trooper York's head I'm afraid.
I don't particularly want to see the pictures myself, but I do think it's extremely important that they are made available.
Von Richtofen was the last knight and was accorded a knight's burial in a world that still retained a memory, however dim, of that code.
I don't think it matters. People will believe what they want to believe, pictures or not.
Of course it's about 'us.' How else are we going to provide health care to all...and reach the goal of equality of outcome and resources?
Ezra hasn't spent the last few yours journolisting and promoting the Affordable Care Act for nothing, damn it.
David Caruso was contacted but couldn't be bothered as he was hard at work practicing the Caruso.............pause.
My Indian UK husband said everyone in India knew he was in Pakistan.
Pakistan and India hate each other.
That's true of some, but not all.
Imagine if you lived where Islamic radicalism was popular. Some nutjobs are going around saying he's not really dead. You think that's stupid.
"Everyone knows he's dead!"
"Then why are there no pictures?!"
"Of course there are pictures!"
Then you go home and find out that there aren't any pictures. You hate America, but you're supposed to believe that bin Laden is dead based purely on America's say-so.
We don't need that scenario played out a couple million times.
Release the pics.
Put a black square of the wound if it's that gruesome.
Faking pictures is trivial. His head on a pike would be more convincing.
Do we still have to be giving Pakistan all those billions of dollars?
Would he feel the same swell if he knew Bin Laden was killed by "Cheney's Assassination Squad "
Oh, and Cindy Sheehan is a deather
The Queen - "The lefty meme is: It's all about us."
Who the fuck is it supposed to be about?
Are we not supposed to acknowledge the fact that we just might be more morally grounded or respectful than other cultures or religious beliefs in the world?
Are we not supposed to be proud of the fact that we behave in a more respectful manner?
You sound like a twelve year old.
Seven, if there is somebody out there in the Muslim world who WOULD attack us if we didn't treat Bin Laden's body in accordance with Islamic tradition, but who WOULD NOT attack us just for the killing of Bin Laden itself, I'm be very, very surprised.
I'm interested in long-term victory, and I don't see that coming unless we continue to force the "Islamic World" to recognize that they will have no peace unless and until they renounce violence as a means of protecting themselves against "disrespect" and "offense." The reality is, of course, that Islam as it is practiced throughout most of the Islamic world is NOT a "religion of peace," as of course you well know. But we in the West have gone way too far in allowing that myth to go unchallenged, allowing leaders in the Arab world, as well as Iran and Pakistan and other non-Arabic Islamic nations to talk out of both sides of their mouth. I'm tired of it, and I think it's hurting the cause of making most Muslims learn how to co-exist with people of other religions and legal systems.
I'm fine that the President didn't force this issue during his speech, but as Freeman and others note very clearly, he said two completely different things in the same speech, and we have to directly confront that hypocrisy at some point.
"Do we still have to be giving Pakistan all those billions of dollars?"
I'm looking forward to hearing the explanation of how he got away with living 1000 feet from an important army facility.
Freeman -- Why does it matter to us if Muslims think Bin Laden is dead or not?
It doesn't. In fact, the longer they think maybe he's still alive, the longer radical elements are in disarray.
Pat -- Islam completely aside, you apparently have no concept of a shame/honor culture, and how it differs from a guilt culture.
A belief of the living. The dead have no beliefs nor wishes.
Right. So when someone dies, we just take his money and give it to whomever we want.
Kevin - "Obama says Osama isn't a Muslim. So why are we burying him as a Muslim?"
That isn't what he said at all.
He said that "his (Osama's) demise should be welcomed by all who believe in peace and human dignity.”
And that "Osama was not a Muslim leader.”
That's quite a bit different than the teabagger drivel you posted.
Jeremy the king of the caca throwers lectures others on respect.
A major Saudi religious leader has already condemned the burial at sea.
Apparently it is only supposed to be done as a last resort.
Freeman -- Why does it matter to us if Muslims think Bin Laden is dead or not?
To damage their morale. To not create the idea that bin Laden is forever eluding and humiliating the West.
"When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature they will like the strong horse." - bin Laden
To make it crystal clear who's who.
Jeremy: Hey, Bin Laden's dead. I think I'll go over to Althouse and be a complete asshole.
But, Freeman, Obama is the dead horse. If he's dead, then he's dead. It doesn't matter what people think.
In fact, the longer they think maybe he's still alive, the longer radical elements are in disarray.
Evidence that they are in disarray? Their organization is not centralized. Osama bin Laden is symbolically important, but I don't know that he's operationally important.
Are we not supposed to acknowledge the fact that we just might be more morally grounded or respectful than other cultures or religious beliefs in the world?
Interesting to see Jeremy argue that our culture and values are surperior to others.
But yes Jeremy, I wholheartedly agree that we are in fact more morally grounded and respectful than other cultures or religious beliefs in the world and am delighted that you would not consider that to be a sign of arrogance and bigotry.
I'm proud we got him.
I'm proud it was a Democrat President in charge.
I'm proud that President is "Black" and named Hussein.
I'm proud we handled the body with dignity.
I'm proud to be an American.
I don't know any other nation that could ever claim those possibilities.
All of these things were unexpected by both our friends and enemies.
We are often underestimated.
Evidence that they are in disarray?
Are we comparing evidence now?
Okay, I'll lay out all mine: .
And here's all yours: .
If it swells, ride it Ezra.
But, Freeman, [Osama] is the dead horse. If he's dead, then he's dead. It doesn't matter what people think.
Weren't you the one just talking about how important it is to consider politics? We're in a war. The propaganda matters.
ricpic "Jeremy the king of the caca throwers lectures others on respect."
I'm not "lecturing" anybody about anything.
I merely pointed out the bullshit The Queen is throwing out there as chum for you and other teabaggers who worship her every word.
If you don't think Americans are more respectful or morally gounded than many other cultures in the world, that's your right.
I do.
As for my being less than "respectful." I could be much more respectful of many here if they ever stepped down from their right wing perch and gave our president any credit for anything at all.
Obama, Osama. Potato. Potato.
My bad. I have been purposefully writing Bin Laden every time to avoid that. Except then.
I don't say he is alive Garage. It shouldn't be a problem for them to follow normal legal criminal procedure which is what they claim they want to do in terrorism cases isn't it?
It is really just to preclude some fanatic from claiming to be Osama and rabble rousing the terrorists even more. They can end any chance of that right now.
Unless of course they can't.
Drew said…
"What a strange response. I cannot comprehend the mindset that, upon reading this, swells with 'patriotism.'"
Try not to read too much into it. It's likely just a silly affectation. On the face of it, it's such an embarrassingly goofy comment that I'm assuming Klein is speaking in some kind of gang rap to his fellow travelers.
Freeman, where is all your evidence that radical Muslims will mount a propaganda effort saying that Bin Laden is still alive?
At any rate, I say the pictures will see an "unauthorized" leak. Watch.
Are we comparing evidence now?
Okay, I'll lay out all mine: .
And here's all yours: .
For the last ten years we've been hearing that al Qaeda is decentralized. It is composed of independent cells.
I see no reason to feel any pride in respecting the religious beliefs of a murderous mad man. It would have been better to keep is body for at least a few days and get independent verification of the kill.
I don't know the proper handling according to Islam but my nephew in Afghanistan says the gather up the enemy they kill and dump them in mass graves, probably within 24 hours if simply for sanitation reasons. There's no great respect shown.
For those interested, the corpus delecti.
"Right. So when someone dies, we just take his money and give it to whomever we want."
No. That would upset the living.
I'm looking forward to hearing the explanation of how he got away with living 1000 feet from an important army facility.
The Pakistani military was shocked, shocked to find bin Laden living right outside their front door.
/Capt Renault
The lefty meme is: It's all about us.
Oh, look at that. A blanket attack of the left with nary a one for the right, ever.* Remember, kids, she's not a conservative blogger!
*As an infrequent visitor, I could be wrong on this and am open to being proven so, but I doubt I will be.
Hoosier - "Interesting to see Jeremy argue that our culture and values are surperior to others."
I have no idea what that even means.
Show me where I've ever denigrated our country of citizens.
Show me where I've taken the stand that "our culture and values are not surperior to others."
The fact that we, like others, can't be casting the first stone, when we in fact also do many things wrong, doesn't make me any less American or even jingoistic.
I just get sick and tired of the racism and religious bigotry one can find here on a daily basis.
And you're one of the worst.
I could be much more respectful of many here if they ever stepped down from their right wing perch and gave our president any credit for anything at all.
Your President, not mine.
"Who the fuck is it supposed to be about?"
He was responsible for a lot more damage to others than to us. Half the world needed him dead. We simply stepped up as usual.
If you don't think Americans are more respectful or morally gounded than many other cultures in the world, that's your right.
I do.
Osama bin Laden is dead and Jeremy is on record advocating the moral superiority of Americans over other cultures.
What a day it is indeed.
If an Arabian wins the Kentucky Derby will that be a sign that the strong horse is still ours O children of Ishmael ?!
I just get sick and tired of the racism and religious bigotry one can find here on a daily basis
And you're one of the worst.
LOL!
That's a laugh riot when you just posted:
If you don't think Americans are more respectful or morally gounded than many other cultures in the world, that's your right.
I do.
Ezra Klein "felt a swell of patriotism"
If he puts a little ice on it, his patriotism will return to its original microscopic size.
Damn, I left for many hours, come back, and Jeremy is still running 100mph judging and hating anyone with political differences from him. It is full nasty anger mode, instead of happiness.
How sad! This is supposed to be a good day. Obama fans should be happy, too.
The right doesn't have to stop criticizing Obama on their differences, Jeremy. It's OK. That's what makes America great, and losers like you losers.
It's not like hunting OBL down was an issue of any partisan difference. There is no political hay to be made of that one.
And Jeremy, you think anyone who disagrees with you is racist or bigot so your opinion doesn't really matter.
That's good point Pogo. How would Ezra Klein know what patriotism feels like?
He must have just had gas or something.
Freeman, where is all your evidence that radical Muslims will mount a propaganda effort saying that Bin Laden is still alive?
They don't have to mount a propoganda effort. It will just happen.
It's already happening.
On the streets of Saudi Arabia, bin Laden's native land which stripped him of his citizenship after September 11, there was a mood of disbelief and sorrow among many.
"I feel that it is a lie," said one Saudi in Riyadh. He did not want to be named. "I don't trust the US government or the media. They just want to be done with his story. It would be a sad thing if he really did die. I love him and in my eyes he is a hero and a jihadist."
Hoosier Daddy "And Jeremy, you think anyone who disagrees with you is racist or bigot so your opinion doesn't really matter."
That's a flat out lie.
Fuck off.
And In non-Arab Iran, a sworn enemy of the United States, some ordinary people were also sceptical of Washington's account: "Are we sure that he has been killed?" said Tehran shopkeeper Ali Asghar Sedaghat. "Or is it another game of the Americans?"
Trooper York "That's good point Pogo. How would Ezra Klein know what patriotism feels like?"
Right.
Unless you're a teabagging sycophant, you couldn't possibly be patriotic.
You're a fucking idiot.
Of course they will not believe he is dead. That will be the constant claim of the radicals. But they have buried those claims at sea.
Oh wait a minute.....
Freeman -- How does that hurt us? As for me, I don't give a flying fuck what Arabs think. Or anybody. As long as they don't hurt the United States.
Think what you want, you sorry bums.
Ann Althouse said...
"So why are we burying him as a Muslim?"
Burials are for the living. Ideas about how to treat a corpse are not for the sake of the corpse.
Messing up corpses is not what we do, either because we have standards or because we want others to think that we do.
Maybe you'd prefer his head on a pike outside the White House?
5/2/11 11:41 AM
I think the point the more rational are making (see Freeman's comment) Ann is there is no compelling reason the U.S. had to bury him at sea in 24 hours. The body could have been displayed to the press and some other witnesses before his remains were disposed of.
The Grand Inquisitor - Fuck off.
Freeman -- How does that hurt us? As for me, I don't give a flying fuck what Arabs think. Or anybody. As long as they don't hurt the United States.
Because we're trying to win a war! The propaganda matters.
That's right, Troop.
Might just be a zit or hives for all we know. Maybe it's his new nightly facial cream or his concealer. NTTAWWT.
Let's see the swelling, Ezra. Like Bin Laden's body, "pics or it didn't happen" and all that. .
Trooper York said...
They brought Admiral Nelson's body home in a barrel of port wine. Don't they have at least some malt liquor or something on that aircraft carrier?
5/2/11 12:46 PM
That is how I want to go. I would prefer, however, to be pickled in a fine single barrel bourbon. Knob Hill or Blanton's. Only the best.
Hoosier - Are you saying you do not agree with this?
"If you don't think Americans are more respectful or morally gounded than many other cultures in the world, that's your right."
Or are you inferring that if feel this way about our country and citizens, I am somehow a racist or a bigot?
Really?
Lots of people can't seem to process anything until David Fincher's made a movie about it. This'll take them a while.
The Grand Inquisitor said...
Damn, I left for many hours, come back, and Jeremy is still running 100mph judging and hating anyone with political differences from him. It is full nasty anger mode, instead of happiness.
There's more than one Jeremy - it's just a writing style, just as the exact same guys are all also Alpha, shiloh, franglo, J...., which are different writing styles all saying the same thing.
PS It's looking as if those crowds of college kids "celebrating" at Ground Zero and in front of the White House were Facebook-coordinated.
It shouldn't be a problem for them to follow normal legal criminal procedure which is what they claim they want to do in terrorism cases isn't it?
Who cares. He is dead. And I'm glad the last thing he saw was an American with rifle pointed at him.
Osama bin Crabbait.
All due respect, all due respect.
Hoosier - Are you saying you do not agree with this?
"If you don't think Americans are more respectful or morally gounded than many other cultures in the world, that's your right."
Or are you inferring that if feel this way about our country and citizens, I am somehow a racist or a bigot?
Really?
Actually Jeremy I do agree with your sentiment. I have on numerous occassions echoed the very same sentiments; that our values and morals are in fact superior to other cultures and religions. I have also been accused of being a bigot and racist for stating that. Heck you just said I was one of the worst.
Osama bin Ladin was wearing a dress when he got killed wasn't he? That is probably why they don't want to release the photographs. It would violate the new gender identity rules the White House just adopted.
edutcher - "There's more than one Jeremy - it's just a writing style, just as the exact same guys are all also Alpha, shiloh, franglo, J...., which are different writing styles all saying the same thing."
Based on the fact that 90% of the regular teabaggers here every day of the week, regurgitate the same right wing drivel over and over and over again...always agreeing, never countering...that comment really takes some guts.
Duh.
Who cares garage?
Anybody who wants to avoid trouble down the road. Who realizes that there was no reason to rush to bury him at sea.
Unless there was a reason?
It just seems very strange and unusual and unecessary.
Althouse:
"The lefty meme is: It's all about us."
That's not what Ezra said. Not close. That's not what I am hearing from other "lefties."
He is simply saying it was a good call to follow Islamic practices for the dead. And that we need to look at what we have done to our own country.
But in no way did he say "it is all about us." He would probably argue with that statement. So you are bearing false witness yet again.
An, just maybe Ann, the situation does not really call for searching for argument to beat up "the left" with. Maybe we don't have to attack each other at all. Please allow that consideration.
Lord Nelson died of his wounds on the 21st October 1805.
Nelson was stripped of his clothes and his body hair was removed before the his was placed inside a water leaguer. The water leaguer was used as there was not enough lead on board to make a coffin. The leaguer was then filled with brandy (not rum as is often thought) to preserve the body. A water leaguer could contain 184 gallons of water and was the largest barrel on board ship of Nelson's time
I cut and pasted that from this. So who knows how true it is. I am not as big on Brandy, but hey it probably beat out the Port Wine that Trooper mentioned (because he would come out looking like purple tinky winkie or a potato soaked in borcht). Even dead, I would prefer not having my body hair removed. But that is me.
Seven,
Here's where you lose me: the implication that some folks might carry out a terrorist attack against Western targets because we killed ObL and/or disrespected his corpse, but who otherwise werent' minded to carry out a terrorist attack against us for some other reason. I think you're talking about an empty set here.
It's all about spin! Pay no attention to the "US" behind the curtain!
PROTIP: it's easier to make "progressive" sound dirty than "lefty" - a good rich sibilant works like a charm on the average stooge.
Seven Machos: "Let me spell it out for you people: there is a tremendous risk right now and in the coming months of a terrorist attack in the United States -- ranging in awfulness from minor (a couple dead people) to catastrophic (nuclear bomb)."
So the ultra organized jihadists have all these plans in place but have waited patiently for something other than our existence to piss them off? Their nukes have just been languishing for this moment? You are off your gourd.
Anybody who wants to avoid trouble down the road. Who realizes that there was no reason to rush to bury him at sea.
People who refuse to believe it now wouldn't have been persuaded any further with pics of his body. They would just say that it was faked.
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