Meade and I shot this video yesterday. I edited to heighten the absurdity of appropriating the civil rights song "We Shall Overcome" (about not being free) and that "Stickin' to the Union" song (about facing union-busting violence).
The protests have been on behalf of well-paid people with excellent jobs — better jobs than the average Wisconsinite's. And the protesters got massive extra doses of freedom to express themselves in the state capitol for over a month, without any threats of violence or even arrest for the crimes they committed in full view of the police. I mean, I know they have their complaints, but they are not even the bottom sector of the Wisconsin economy. If there were to be a class struggle here, they would be taken aback to find themselves in the role they actually have in this economy: the oppressors!
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१३० टिप्पण्या:
You get the feeling people who really were oppressed, like slaves or someone, are spinning right now.
Hell, half of those clowns probably came off Craigslist.
PS The only class struggle in WI is the one between those with class and those without it.
Somehow - compared to things like the Cedar Revolution, the old Iron Curtain nation's citizens standing against the Soviet threat, Poland's Solidarity, and the like - this bunch just doesn't seem as profound.
Maybe it's just me? ;)
Geh... edutcher beat me to it. Beaten to the punch again, once by Victoria, and once here.
Must improve reflexes. ;) :D
The invincible blindness of moral superiority.
I have more respect for these people, than for these Capitol laze-abouts.
You must have missed the hundreds of farmers last weekend.
Also too -She was among dozens of real estate professionals who marched around the Capitol Saturday in protest of Walker's actions. It was their second protest there within a month.
A newly created Facebook page, Realtors in Support of Public Employees, has topped 580 members, who've been trading stories of skittish buyers and angry clients who link the state's real estate industry with Walker. At least two other similar Facebook groups have formed.
... And a typo:
"... the old Iron Curtain nation's citizens standing..."
*the old Iron Curtain nations' <- Plural possesive. Multiple nations. There wasn't just a single "Iron Curtain Nation"... d'oh...
Yeech, I really, really need to proofread before I post. But is it my fault, with all these fast guns beating me to the draw all the time!! ;)
The protests have been on behalf of well-paid people with excellent jobs — better jobs than the average Wisconsinite's.
The average Wisconsinite must be earning third world wages then because garage mahal remarked several threads ago he wouldn't go to college to be a teacher for the lousy pay they receive.
Tibore, I held off from writing what Edutcher wrote because I didn't want to be Jilly-on-the-spot twice in a row. Go git 'em next time!
garbage, who do you work for?
You are so obviously a scam artist.
Yup. The First Amendment is wonderful! And, pretty much everybody sees the assembly as peaceful. (Must be a message inside union headquarters that THUGGERY backfires on them.)
I'm glad you still have gist for the mill.
While over at InstaPundit, Glenn Reynolds is running the police letter to local businessmen. Where the "list" comes from those who gave to Walker's campaign. (In other words? Threatens businesses!)
And, Glenn Reynolds asks the question: Is it possible the police wouldn't respond if these businesses were attacked?
So, I'm reminded of the RODNEY KINNG RIOTS. Police did not respond! Law abiding Korean businesses, at first, were burned to the ground.
Then, the SECOND AMENDMENT kicked in. And, businesses hired (or had) "snipers" who went up on roofs and fired away. ENDING THE RODNEY KING RIOTS after 3 days.
Media coverage was wall-to-wal. The year? 1991, I think. And, for the first time in Soviet history ... they started to show scenes from "Florence and Normandy" ... around the clock. On Russian TV!
Did you know Russian propaganda had told the Russian population that America "had it worse?" So it was assumed to be so.
Until people saw the avalanche of cars coming ... OWNED BY IDENTIFIED POOR PEOPLE! Carrying off TV sets.
Eyes popped out of the heads of russians FOR THE FIRST TIME! They understood what a retail store in the USA had on hand, in terms of merchandise.
Can we have riots, again? YES.
But there's lessons imbedded in the RODNEY KING RIOTS. Where people took back their own communities. Gun cabinets were unlocked.
I'll bet union goons would run for their lives. No matter how bad the police response would be.
I love the "eye tests" I have to take "to post."
Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto said after the attack on Pearl Harbor ""I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." The Unions have done that as well. Made the attacks on those of us who pay them via our taxes. That strategy did work out to well the first time, not going to do so this time either
"[...] and how one day they'll 'be free.'"
That's just precious. Really.
This constant conflation of the current goals of the Democratic Party with ending slavery and Jim Crow does two very vicious things:
1. It turns reality on its head. The Democratic Party was the enforcer of Jim Crow.
2. It encourages Democrats to look at their opponents as evil demons, thus justifying any kind of crazy tactics.
Free to make complete asses of themselves, protected by the First Amendment.
Happily, we are still free to point and laugh.
They've hijacked the rest of us with their rhetoric - "the people," "the middle class," "Wisconsin workers" - in their attempts to make this a class struggle.
They've hijacked history to suit their message(s) and to justify myopic outrage at "problems" only those in a free and privileged society would dare to complain about so publicly. Compared to the rest of the world, this is nothing.
How people can act like this and say (or sing) the things they're saying with straight faces, I'll never know.
Heros of the revolution! I wonder how many of them pay property taxes?
A newly created Facebook page, Realtors in Support of Public Employees, has topped 580 members, who've been trading stories of skittish buyers and angry clients who link the state's real estate industry with Walker. At least two other similar Facebook groups have formed.
Interesting. I had no idea that in Wisconsin, home buyers would cringe at the idea that their property taxes would not be increased to pay for public employee salaries and benefits.
Sounds to me like raising taxes in Wisconsin would be welcomed by the electorate.
The tax payers who have had their collective bargaining rights (granted, a statutory - not constitutional or God-given right) stripped away are protesting the tyranny of the 'purported' majority (did more than one=half of the population vote for Mr. Walker or more than half of the people who voted. Would he have been elected if he had advertised his intention to do what he has done in his first two months in office?) The unions have been made the villains - thugs - clowns - etc., all for doing the job they received training and education to do. A job for which, in the non-lean times, we were happy to pay with our taxes. Why must the budget be balanced on their backs? Why must it have been done in a divisive manner, rather than a unifying manner? Because they are an easy enemy to create and because they are a major financial supporter of one of the two parties. Are they really overpaid? Are they really not worth the money? Would they have really been so unmoving and unreasonable at the baragaining table? Or are we facing a fiscal problem and finding it easier to treat them as a lower class because they work for the municipality, and don't create jobs. Where is the job creation? What jobs are being lured here by the attitude we show-an attitude that says we do not value the people who teach our children, etc. I don't pretend to have answers, I just mourn the fact that the people who serve us are being trashed because it costs money to pay them as we had been paying them for so many years.
Hey Bushman of the Kohlrabi
If they don't pay property taxes it's probably because they have not made enough money to get a home loan. All of the union people I know pay property taxes. Are the corporations paying their taxes?
There are lots of lessons being taught here. The police unions have really hurt themselves by not enforcing laws, like the judge's order to close the capitol. The letter to businessmen is another example. Those unions will be included in the next step toward rationalizing unions' power.
Teachers have pretty well made themselves look like trash with the union marches, closing schools and phony doctors' slips.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Over at Megan Mcardle's blog, she has stories of corrupt arrangements, like subsidized parking lots at Yankee Stadium (The new one) going bust. The comments are as cynical as those samizdat letters that used to circulate in the USSR.
The big loser will be government and its reputation. Currently, 23% approve.
Would they have really been so unmoving and unreasonable at the baragaining table?
Look at Illinois, New York and California to see how reasonable public employee unions are when they hold the cards. They're not giving up a damn thing in those states, each of which is in even worse fiscal shape than Wisconsin.
Ha, wasn't that the same guy you called Mr. Garrison yesterday, leading the singing?
I have to admit though, as I watch this I get a little mad. Self-pity is a very ugly thing, especially when there is nothing to pity.
http://baseballpoliticsandfreedom.blogspot.com
Are those of you who live in Madison not completely embarrassed? Are there no serious people there? I must say I am bored shitless with the stupidity on display in your fair city and wonder if you are not all, every one of you, insane.
So much of this appears completely tone deaf to me: Jesse Jackson, a YouTube tour of the occupied Capitol by a giddy coed, Peter Yarrow, Michael Moore, slogan-chanting children, and the whole class struggle nonsense. I'm not a political consultant, but aren't the republican attack adds practically writing themselves?
Would they have really been so unmoving and unreasonable at the baragaining table?
Wow. Is the Space Pope reptilian?
(A: Yes.)
Why must the budget be balanced on their backs?
Possibly because salaries and benefits tend to be the biggest cost an employer has.
I recall seeing that the average total compensation package for a Wisconsin public school teacher is around $100K annually. That's not too shabby. Then again, perhaps you set a higher bar for compensation and think that's lousy pay.
I disagree with the protesters complaining about teacher salaries. Teachers are making real good money at all levels of education. If a service worker, or factory worker, for example, and not necessarily lawyers and managers, a service worker/factory worker, goes to work at a school/college to teach a trade, they almost always make more money per hour as a teacher, and these are skilled workers -- the kinds of jobs that went overseas that everyone wishes they had a chance at working at today. I worked in advertising, and a teacher's salary would even be higher than my salary just out of school. Teachers also are working in the classroom, maybe a couple of hours at home and weekends, yet are not travelling and are not working 60- to 70-hour weeks which does command a higher salary. Teachers have the benefit of being home for dinner, even those teachers who take on extra-curricular school activities as a way of increasing revenue. I agree that the protesters who are complaining on behalf of teachers are in fact the oppressors and should rather be fighting for the real oppressed, the unemployed, immigrant families who are struggling to survive cuz they may lack skills and a means to an education. They should be protesting in favor of government-sponsored training and education so that everyone in the great RED/WHITE/BLUE states can have a fair chance at real freedom -- independence.
Michael
I am not in a union but I have never been more proud of this city, the police, and my democratic representatives.
If there were to be a class struggle here, they would be taken aback to find themselves in the role they actually have in this economy: the oppressors!
That sums up the gross absurdity of the union protesters. Total and complete absurdity.
The other night I suffered through the unctuous sermon of a local (Minneapolis)TV reporter on the scene in Madison. He said the day before had belonged to Gov. Walker but today was "the people's" day. I zipped off a protesting email to the station and of course have heard nothing back.
It's amazing how many people suffer from the delusion that extortion of government by well organized pressure groups says something positive about our society.
Because they are an easy enemy to create and because they are a major financial supporter of one of the two parties.
The enemy part is an overstatement.
The ability of public employee unions to make huge contributions to the Democrats, and to receive big salaries and perks as kickbacks is exactly what is at stake here.
That has to be stopped.
john d hyland: Well, you should all put on clown costumes and give yourselves a big hug because to the rest of the world you look foolish and greedy and unaware of real struggles of real working people both here and abroad. To conflate the "struggle" of the people who work for the government you worship (why would you have a union if the govt is so wonderful) with actual workers whose unions actually helped them shows your ignorance, your sanctimony and your self absorption to be without bounds. You are clowns pretending to be victims.
Realtors in Support of Public Employees
595 likes. yippee.
who've been trading stories of skittish buyers and angry clients
Sounds less like a group of potential homebuyers, and more like a herd of unthinking cows prodded into a near frenzy by rustlers and made ready to stampede.
Which is kind of apt, isn't it?
John D. Hyland-
Wisconsin's State and Local Tax Burden Among Nation's Highest
For the past three decades Wisconsin's state and local tax burden has consistently ranked among the nation's highest; currently estimated at 11.0% of income (4th nationally), above the national average of 9.8%. Compared to the 1977 data, Wisconsin had a tax burden of 12.6% (2nd nationally), decreasing 1.6% overall. Currently Wisconsin taxpayers pay $4,427 per capita in state and local taxes.
Wisconsin's 2011 Business Tax Climate Ranks 40th
Wisconsin ranks 40th in the Tax Foundation's State Business Tax Climate Index. The Index compares the states in five areas of taxation that impact business: corporate taxes; individual income taxes; sales taxes; unemployment insurance taxes; and taxes on property, including residential and commercial property. Neighboring states ranked as follows: Iowa (45th), Minnesota (43rd), Michigan (17th) and Illinois (23rd).
[...]
Wisconsin Property Taxes: Among the Nation's Highest
Wisconsin is one of the 37 states that collect property taxes at both the state and local levels. As in most states, local governments collect far more. Wisconsin's localities collected $1,423.54 per capita in property taxes in fiscal year 2006, which is the latest year the Census Bureau published state-by-state property tax collections. At the state level, Wisconsin collected $20.44 per capita during FY 2006, making its combined state/local property taxes $1,443.98 per capita, which ranks 11th highest nationally.
Taxfoundation.org
These people are as timely and as relevant as Luddites.
Haha - now, according to Garbage, some maroons are suggesting Gov. Walker has ruined the state's real estate business! And the Gov. did that in only 3-4 weeks??!
Obviously the "easy" answer for you -is tax 'em more.
Micahel, you wrote: "you look foolish and greedy and unaware of real struggles of real working people both here and abroad." The public sector workers I know ARE facing a struggle with the loss of income proposed by the changes. They, like most today, are two parent households with both parents working and struggling to keep up with a modest mortgage and expenses and plans to put their children through college.
You also wrote: "To conflate the "struggle" of the people who work for the government ... with actual workers whose unions actually helped them shows your ignorance" These public sector unions obviously DID help thier workers - that is why cutting their benefits and pay is the first step taken by our governor toward balancing a budget. Are they overpaid? If so, then they have had very effective union representation. Do they enjoy good working conditions? Same response. Wisconsin was the first state in the union to grant public sector collective bargaining rights. After 50 years they are gone - and that would have been achieved without any public dialogue - or election campaigning I might add - had it not been for our 'fab 14' putting the skids on Walker's plans and delaying the inevitable for at least three weeks. During those weeks at least some of the inequities that now pervade our society have been highlighted.
I am not in a union but I have never been more proud of this city, the police, and my democratic representatives.
In fact, for the first time in his life, he is proud to be an American.
During those weeks at least some of the inequities that now pervade our society have been highlighted.
Indeed they have. Just how you this helps unionizeed public employees is a mystery to me, though.
WI has gone insane. Just recall Walker and the GOP and enjoy your Communism, you rat fucks.
why would you have a union if the govt is so wonderful
Cronyism, safety, working conditions to name a few.
Hey john d hyland
I don't imagine that many of the student protesters are paying much in property taxes. I also don't imagine that many public employees pay more into the system then they take out. But I do.
shoutingthomas said...
This constant conflation of the current goals of the Democratic Party with ending slavery and Jim Crow does two very vicious things:
1. It turns reality on its head. The Democratic Party was the enforcer of Jim Crow.
It was also the Defender of the Peculiar Institution.
And it's defense of Jim Crow was an extension of that.
PS Beating vb to the draw is a humbling experience.
Not many of us do it and live to tell the tale.
During those weeks at least some of the inequities that now pervade our society have been highlighted.
Such as the privileged position of unionized public employees, the oppressors, and how they feel free to extort the rest of us.
Was public dialogue and election campaigning involved 50 years ago when public employees got the right to be in a union?
Sounds a bit unlikely to me to run campaing ads that say "Vote For Me And I will let the city hall drones join a union".
john d hyland-
ARE facing a struggle with the loss of income proposed by the changes.
..which would only be to the end of this fiscal budget-without the other things passed it would be right back to the WEAC re-negotiating-for that supposed "talent" the WEAC needs to collect $25 million in dues.
btw-No wonder some of the smuckety smuck lawyers were out protesting with the unions at the tractorcade they get paid to do the negotiations with the bought and paid for by the union politicians. --Only problem is this time Republicans won at the ballot box so the union officials couldn't quite "game" both sides of the negotiation table.
$25 million annually collected by the WEAC -and it's just one of many department of education related unions.
So $25 million and what- the WEAC only has 6 council members so pay them each a million-and then what do the teacher's get for the left over $19 million?
Drum circles and Jesse Jackson?
btw- what's going to happen to their pension funds if the state goes bankrupt?
Well, you should all put on clown costumes and give yourselves a big hug because to the rest of the world you look foolish and greedy and unaware of real struggles of real working people both here and abroad
Ian's dished out 35,000 slices of pizza to protesters, donated from every state, and many countries around the world. Walker can't get 10 people down here to support him.
The only goons and ginks are the union finks. They are free- free to take off work, free to litter and damage state property, free to be uncivil, vulgar, and profane, free to do whatever they want- no matter who pays or suffers for it. That is freedom.
They are the oppressors. They are the establishment.
Rocketeer67: you wrote: In fact, for the first time in his life, he is proud to be an American. You are worn. I have always been proud - except when my government grinds to a halt because the elected officials put re-election and their financial backers ahead of the public good. This happens nationally all too often - how many times last year did republican senators reverse their position and block legislation just because Obama or the democrats had taken up the same position. I am not proud when things like that happen, and it is because of the influence of money - whether from the unions or the Koch brothers.
Or how about this-
One of the Republican assemblyman related this story-(I know who's listening to them?)
When he was in local government before going to the state assembly at his local school district the board found an insurance company that would cover the union members for less saving the school district-
$800,000 annually.
Some of the newer school employees said they would like to make some concessions on their health insurance to maintain their fiscal soundness-by being allowed to keep their jobs. IOW without the health care concessions the school district would have to fire the newer employees.
The assemblyman said he went to the union official (-who was not employed by the state in any way and had no other income except being paid for by the union) and told them the school district would have to do lay offs to make their budget- or- they could get the cheaper health insurance.
The union official refused and said:
Lay offs come with the territory.
He didn't care if members of the union got fired all he cared about was that he got his concessions.
You're "proud" of that?
Garage said:
"Walker can't get 10 people down here to support him."
Your union math teachers need to get busy. You morons passed Walker's bill with less than 10 votes!
madawskan
I am not proud of either side when they act solely in their own self interest. If we had open leadership, instead of deceptive bullying*, on our fiscal issues, it might trickle down to all levels of government. *I use this term because the governor's campaign for office was obviously deceptive - I know union members who voted for him - and the introduction of the bill and expected passage within a matter of days was bullying.
Walker can't get 10 people down here to support him.
He got 1,128,941 people to vote for him.
Not that you want to abide by those results, garbage.
We understand that.
hyland
How many "scare" words have you been manipulated by over the years...
"Koch Brothers"
What ever happened to "DIEBOLD"?
Oh that's right-Democrats won.
******
OK I see your newer comment.
_______________
The legislation was passed within days-
_______________
Why were protesters in the Capitol for what seemed like weeks?
As to the commercials of Scott Walker-
I don't know about that, but I do know it's damn near impossible to explain the problem with public sector unions having a monopoly and too much "extra" representation when it comes to divvying up the Wisconsin state budget-in a sound bite.
Hell I can't put it into a sentence.
Some people are so completely unaware of reality that they are embarrasing to watch.
I know union members who voted for him - and the introduction of the bill and expected passage within a matter of days was bullying.
To summarize hyland's and garbage's comments:
"We don't like the results of the elections."
So everything besides the elections matters more.
Free pizza, bussed in protesters, conversations on the job...
You name it, everything that has happened is more important than the election that the Republicans won.
Nice try, guys. It's an interesting, if completely bullshit strategy.
Or, to paraphrase Obama:
What part of The Republicans Won, don't you understand?
I do know that Walker told Wisconsin he was going to balance the budget.
He gets $68 million right away by folding WEA union members into the same insurance coverage as the rest of WI state workers.
Instead of using WEA Trust which costs on average $200 more a month for each teacher than the state insurance the rest of WI state employees have.
And it is suspected that the WEAC gets a kick back for that arrangement but since they won't open their books...what is certain is that it is costing the state of Wisconsin-
$68 million extra annually.
(The Wall Street Journal published that it was about that amount.)
My subject for today is liberal "thinking":
Does it exist?
@ john d hyland
Paragraph breaks.
Just sayin'
john d hyland: they will be getting a raise. their union dues will now be optional. They will notice that their check is larger once the checkoff is gone.
Let me leave you with this thought-
My Dad ran numbers for the mob in Pittsburgh during The Depression at the age of sixteen. His "responsibilities" grew with the mob so much as he aged that he decided to get away from them and lied to the US Army volunteering at the age of 17.
Ardennes, Bloody Buckets in the Battle of the Bulge, Vietnam, Korea- but shortly after the conflict.
Let's just say Dear Old Dad has certain skill sets. Now on retirement why did the mob get a hold of him and ask him to help "organize" a steel mill?
If skull crackin' is coming up in your visuals-you might be on to something.
I recall seeing that the average total compensation package for a Wisconsin public school teacher is around $100K annually.
Milwaukee teacher
projection for 2010-2011
12 years experience.
Garage: I went to an away hockey game the other night and I wore my home team's jersey. We beat the home team, the higher ranked team, and after the game I was the subject of some verbal abuse, some light hearted and some drunken and mean and threatening. We won the game.
Why would anyone who won the game voluntarily go down to Madison wearing his Walker jersey and listen to a bunch of cry babies bitch about the score ?
Let me just add or clarify Dad joined the AF after The Battle of the Bulge-as Jeremy would say-
Duh.
Milwaukee teacher
projection for 2010-2011
12 years experience.
That's a hell of a lot of money for any job with 12 years experience in Milwaukee.
And it includes:
o lifetime job security
o retirement after, probably, 20 to 25 years
o retirement at 50% to 80% of final salary
o luxurious benefits
That's some job.
"'And that is what democracy actually looks like.'
Stephen Hayes provides the WI coda.
For background, see this, also from Hayes. Seems strange that if Walker “didn’t run on” collective bargaining reform — as the Journal Sentinel’s Politifact Wisconsin now states — the Journal Sentinel itself would have written this back on Sept 13:
Walker wants to make it easier for school districts and local governments to buy insurance through a state-run health benefits program. Barrett would require local governments to insure their workers through a similar program, and he is interested in having schools eventually do the same.
How much money the proposals would save is a question. But both would require legislation. That’s because current state law makes it difficult if not impossible to make any changes in health benefits without the approval of the unions that represent government workers. Under state law, health benefits that are part of an employee’s total compensation are subject to collective bargaining.
Who knows? Maybe they don’t read their own paper.
And would you blame them?"
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=25577
@shoutingthomas
"We don't like the results of the elections."
Precisely.
And any recall efforts that might commence against republicans would simply be election nullification.
I hope the recall against the fleeing dems does take shape as they essentially were derelict in their duty to work as a minority body with the majority repubs.
Remember, 'bipartisanship' to dems is republican capitulation.
They're not so 'bipartisan' when the shoe is on the other foot.
Self-dramatization is right. The whole thing has become performance art, and not the good kind either.
YIPPY!
It's finally our turn-
40 Michigan state Capitol protesters await ejection
A comment from one of our really smart brethren
"its not JUST unions and liberal activists comin tomorrow
buses full of students have been organized at western, wayne, msu, u of m, central, & eastern for sure, and im willin to bet small schools will be there in number as well.
you may out number the protesters unwilling to leave tonight, but you dont have a chance tomorrow"
who've been trading stories of skittish buyers and angry clients
This has been going on since 2008. Walker has little to do with a lousy NATIONAL real estate market.
Ohio Police and Firefighters are insinuating that passage of SB 5 could hinder public safety work.
Because, with less benefits, they might not try to save your life.
Booooring.
Being in the rotunda they could have dressed in black robes, covered their faces holding up masks and chanted in Greek chorus-y fashion.
Protesters are sometimes stupid - shocker.
Yeah, right, the collective bargaining rights of public employees are what made "taxpayers" slaves - is that the theory you are running with today? Teachers, firefighters, cops, nurses, librarians, teaching assistants, and prison guards are the enemies of all other taxpayers - seriously? You guys are *&^$% in the head.
You might want to learn about the subject matter you are covering. If you are talking public school teachers (and law profs), yes, correct, they are paid pretty well and have negotiated for good benefits. They should be paid well. Whoever said they are always home for dinner and work maybe 2 hours outside of school is really out of touch.
Further, if you are talking prison guards, public school teaching assistants, home health care workers, and the like, you are really just plain old wrong. Even with benefits, they are not paid that well. Being a prison guard basically sucks. Try it.
Also, with regard to public school teachers, should they not be reasonably well compensated? Why don't you watch and try to teach 7th graders of various levels of ability, income levels, and social strata and see how well you do?
One thing I know is simply wrong on policy grounds and morally is to decrease funding to public schools in Milwaukee while giving more money to charters and private voucher programs. Gee, I wonder if that is being done to make more Milwaukee public schools fail? Let's look into our crystal ball....
↘ ↓ ↙
→ Um, ←
↗ ↑ ↖
learn something new every day. I thought you had to be closer together for a circle jerk.
"Also, with regard to public school teachers, should they not be reasonably well compensated? Why don't you watch and try to teach 7th graders of various levels of ability, income levels, and social strata and see how well you do?"
I don't have a problem with paying teachers well.
If they are worth it.
It's the dues/pensions I have a bigger problem with.
One thing I know is simply wrong on policy grounds and morally is to decrease funding to public schools in Milwaukee while giving more money to charters and private voucher programs.
These are tools silly! Less money to one place and more to another = tools to work with. Tools tools tools!
I always like to remind public employees that they have the option to QUIT, and then tell them to use their talents and skills to make what they're really worth. No takers yet.
Fighting against evil Corporations? The State of Wisconsin is an evil Corporation, one that claims allodial title, eminent domain and only allows citizens to hold title in fief.
This is feudelism. Government is the KINGS, public employees are the LORDS, citizens are the SERFS, and welfare receipients are the MOB. Hence: the LORDS tell the KINGS what they want; their demands are passed onto the SERFS, who MUST pay them. Any SERF who doesn't pay the TRIBUTE for a period of 3 years is removed from their property, and gets to join the MOB. So who's the goons, geeks and company finks? I think the public employees need to take a long hard look in the mirror and stop bankrupting their neighbors. Time to share in the economic pain.
Potshot: Hey you smelly hippies, whatever happened to "live simply so others may simply live"? Guess the lure of McMansions, SUV's, easy credit and big eating triumphs idealism.
Those protesters are lost in their own illusion. This is not Norma Rae; this is I Want a Pony.
Walker can't get 10 people down here to support him.
No, they are at work. You should try it.
I suspect they will be there on election day, though.
I'm confused, since public employees are both SERFS and LORDS, do they protest themselves or do they join the tea party. How do the KOCH BROS. fit into your feudalistic rant?
If there were to be a class struggle here, they would be taken aback to find themselves in the role they actually have in this economy: the oppressors!
Amen, sister!
Fashion statement.
Hyland's apologia for the oppressed teachers and state civil "servants" thoroughly sets out their now familiar arguments.
But It does not even try to make the point that those employees are oppressed in the fashion of victims of the civil rights movement and the non-union workers who were violently attacked by goons hired by the auto and steel manufacturers in the early 20th century.
IOW it has nothing to say about the lameness of singing the old Pete Seegar protest songs.
"Ian's dished out 35,000 slices of pizza to protesters, donated from every state, and many countries around the world. Walker can't get 10 people down here to support him."
Working people don't have the time to show up just for free pizza. Some of us have to actually work to pay for stuff...and other people's stuff. We can't all just stuff our face with free pizza and sing songs.
You want better schools at lower cost? Open these jobs to competition without union interference and you will get both. Or kiss the feet of the union fat cats. Pick one.
These union people have been overpaid incrementally over the past 20-30 years.
At first the raises were to even the score of the public workers very low pay and benefits, but that has now over the decades become a boot on the taxpayers neck.
This is not rocket science, this is common sense.
There is now no more money, the taxpayers are at or past the breaking point.
You public sector workers must now help pay some of your own freight.
You say no and stamp and whine.
The pendulum has swung too far in your favor and now starts back the other way, adjust and negotiate or be cut out like dead wood.
You have become unsustainable, so what's it going to be?
"I thought you had to be closer together for a circle jerk."
Is that like the soggy biscuit?
REAGEN - Taxes paid by public employees amounts to a kickback. Public employees are paid by taxes collected. Public employees "pay taxes" to give the illusion of fairness.
Property taxes are set after the budget is determined, so revenues collected = amount budgeted.
The Teachers use the power of the Union to elect the public official. Then the public official meets their demands after. QUID PRO QUO. It is so blatant, don't even try to deny it. The citizen, well, who cares about him? NOW, the SERFS have revolted a tad, said enough is enough - look at how irritated you are.
You are confused about how government works, so, sit back and think about it. Denial and rejection is the most common response, so I won't hold my breath.
Actually, public employee wages aren't the problem. Eliminate the sick pay stacking, double and triple dipping, put them on a 401K and eliminate retirement health benefits. You could then give them all a raise and still balance local budgets without raising taxes.
Public employees "pay taxes" to give the illusion of fairness.
Among the many, that might be the nuttiest thing I've ever read. "Pay taxes". Funny.
Is always хорошо good the singingk of This Land She Is Father Land for the protest.
Much more good is the полезный идиот useful idiot young peoples with riches far above the peasant but pretend to be the peasant and act as his brother.
Брат! Brother!
Камрад! Comrade!
Long live the glorious One Week anniversary of the Great March Socialist Revolution!
The powerful ideological weapon of the workers of all nations in the struggle against imperialism, for the victory of socialism and communism!
Разрывы Tears to my eyes, the songs, the unions, the collapse of a State. So beautiful to see the capitalist lords turned into plowshares!
The shock that has reverberated through the private sector since 2008 is now making it's way to public employees. Instead of arguing the way we got here, it is now a GLOBAL ECONOMY, on a finite Planet with finite resources. No more of the good old days of subdizing large lifestyles on the backs of third world people. They want what we have, and we will all have to learn to share. As they get more of the pie, we get less. As they rise, we shall fall. We are working the painful path to equilibrum. The public sector is going to experience the same pain that the private sector has. My suggestion is to stop complaining, and adjust. YES, you overspent, you can't afford that McMansion, SUV, vacation or credit card. It's not all about the babyboomers. Are you so deluded as to think Gen X and Gen Y who are struggling in the new economy will pay your way? LOL. They will repudiate the debt and send you to the Soylent Green factory, or Logans Run ya...When your $$ run out, your disk turns black. The private sector has a 2 year head start on the public employees. It's called FUTURE SHOCK. Welcome to the 21st. century and the global economy. Old dinosaurs go extinct.
There is only one way to know if these people are overpaid: See if anyone else wants their job for less.
If they are under paid no one will show up, and they can demand another raise and we will have to pay it, no matter what it is.
So who wants to try this experiment and who does not? If you are not willing to compete, it's because you know you are overpaid.
It's the haves versus the havenots.
Union Shill: The tax payers who have had their collective bargaining rights (granted, a statutory - not constitutional or God-given right) stripped away
No they did not. Collective bargaining has been limited, not stripped.
are protesting the tyranny of the 'purported' majority (did more than one=half of the population vote for Mr. Walker or more than half of the people who voted.
Bullshit. The Unions had EVERY opportunity to work with Walker. They told him to pound sand.
Would he have been elected if he had advertised his intention to do what he has done in his first two months in office?)
He did. For 8 years as County Executive, he did just this thing. And if the Unions didn't know it, then why did they put out literature during the campaign scaremongering that Walker would "bust" the Unions once elected?
The unions have been made the villains - thugs - clowns - etc., all for doing the job they received training and education to do.
No again. They have been made into villians because they are out of touch with middle class, because their Union Thugs made death threats and comitted acts of violence, and because they stormed the Capitol to prevent democracy from functioning.
A job for which, in the non-lean times, we were happy to pay with our taxes. Why must the budget be balanced on their backs?
Because their cadillac entitlements are busting the budgets of local counties and school districts.
Why must it have been done in a divisive manner, rather than a unifying manner?
Because the Unions played hardball first, telling Walker et al to go pound sand.
Would they have really been so unmoving and unreasonable at the baragaining table?
Yes. Walker has 8 years experience sitting across from them at the bargaining table. He knows, you don't.
Also, Union Thugs force people to join their gang if you want to work. Then they force you to donate money to corrupt Democrats who turn around and give the unions more freebies at taxpayer expense.
Its a corrupt kickback scheme that Micheal Corleone would envy.
I've got a better idea. Public education is broke and doesn't work. DUMP IT. Make parents responsible. The private sector will take care of it. It will bring community back together. Volunteer fire departments are a great idea. More community. Let Citizens take greater responsibility for their neighborhoods. Eliminate police. More power to citizens. If you come to rob, rape or loot in my neighborhood, I don't dial 911 and I am armed. When it snows, close the community down. Bring back small business and local marts. HEY PUBLIC EMPLOYEES, WE DON"T NEED YOU. oh, and KILL YOUR TV.
I also don't imagine that many public employees pay more into the system then they take out. But I do.
They are paying in the same as you (BTW, that whole 'hijacking' of terms - like 'taxpayer'...pfft). What they get back is a negotiated paycheck and benefits in exchange for time and talents. We ALL get the services. The exchange works the same as it does for your job.
Let us imagine for a moment a man planning to erect a manufacturing plant somewhere in America. Imagine him considering Wisconsin....
Reagan sez: " Being a prison guard basically sucks. Try it."
R: Are you now, or have you ever been, a prison guard?
Do these leftards really understand how stupid they are?
There is only one way to know if these people are overpaid: See if anyone else wants their job for less.
From 1999 to 2010, I worked in the building where the city of Cincinnati took applications of fire fighters. They would only take applications on particular days when there was a need. Applicants would start lining up with sleeping bags, chairs, food, drink, etc a day or two before applications were to be accepted. I highly doubt is they were expected to agree to the terms Walker wants in Wisconsin that the line would be smaller.
You want better schools at lower cost? Open these jobs to competition without union interference and you will get both.
Vouchers. This is why Dems are against vouchers. Not because of educational quality, but because of union kickbacks to Democratic campaign coffers.
Dems talk the talk but don't walk the walk. It's all about money, power and control for them. Fuck freedom and democracy.
We ALL get the services. The exchange works the same as it does for your job.
No it doesn't. My job (before I retired) and my husband's jobs now are compenensated voluntarily by people who want and need his services. If they don't want his services.....he doesn't get paid. He can't go and do work for people who don't want it and then demand to get paid. If he doesn't provide good service, he won't get hired and will go out of business
Public workers are providing services that I neither want, need or am likely to EVER use.....YET I have to pay for their wages and benefits. I also don't have a choice if I do want the services (like teachers) to go and shop around for a better deal. If the teachers provide crappy service, they are still guaranteed a job. The government won't go out of business no matter how crappy it is.
It is not the same at all. No comparison.
I've a song for them:
"Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Wiener
That is what I'd truly like to be
Cause if I were an Oscar Meyer Wiener
Every one would be in love with me."
All together now, sing it again!
If I remember right there is a wienie factory in Madison, no?
Corporations don't pay taxes, they collect taxes. Every penny transferred to the government from a corporation comes from their customers. It's a cost of doing business and goes into the price of the product. Econ-101
@Fen:
"He did. For 8 years as County Executive, he did just this thing."
Link it or it didn't happen! When did Walker publicly vet, argue for, or posit that Wis Stat 111.70 should be amended to take away collective bargaining (except for wages to be capped at 1% of CPI, with all other topics being illegal)? I would really like to see this, because no one in my business saw it coming at all, and we followed the elections quite closely.
John;
During those weeks at least some of the inequities that now pervade our society have been highlighted.
You forgot to add
KOCH BROTHERS!!!
Corporations don't pay taxes, they collect taxes. Every penny transferred to the government from a corporation comes from their customers.
Excellent post, ken.
"My union protested cuts and all I got was this lousy t-shirt, pre-printed sign, a bus ride, and blisters on my feet."
wv: picksn
The exchange works the same as it does for your job.
No it doesn't. If it was, the market would determine public sector wages and benefits.
And you may be touchy about the term "taxpayer" but the fact remains that private sector workers finance all this government wonderfulness. Otherwise, the whole Ponzi scheme collapses under its own weight.
@garage
Walker can't get 10 people down here to support him.
In my Madison office of 17, 8 back Walker, a number that surprised even me. Madison is a political city - a characteristic that often makes it an interesting, even exciting place to live. That doesn't mean, though, that every resident wears their political affiliation on their sleeve.
Give me that old time religion
give me that old time religion
Give me that old time religion
It's good enough for me
Doris: Link it or it didn't happen!
Two to get you started:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/19/AR2011021904205.html?sid=ST2011021705923
http://www.thehispanicconservative.com/Scott-Walker/scott-walkers-longstanding-history-with-labor.html
Even better:
On August 30, the Journal Sentinel ran an article on plans by Walker and Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, his Democratic opponent, to save the state money by revamping health insurance plans for public employees. The reporter spoke to Ryan Murray, a top policy adviser for the Walker campaign, who explained the candidate's plan. "The way the proposal would work is we would take the choice out of the collective bargaining process," Murray said.
So does taking the choice out of the collective bargaining process mean ending it for health care? The reporter certainly seemed to think so. "[Murray] said school districts often have some of the most expensive health benefits in Wisconsin and could receive cheaper insurance through the state if they didn't have to negotiate with unions about who would insure their members."
What was clear to the reporter was also clear to the teachers' unions. "Our members oppose taking away their rights to collective bargaining, so they would definitely raise their voices against it," said Christina Brey, a spokesman for the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the union leading protests today.
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/woub/.artsmain/article/1/1338/1766921/Columns/Weekly.Standard.Why.So.Surprised.About.Walker
[...]
Doris: no one in my business saw it coming at all, and we followed the elections quite closely.
In the 21st century, we have this thing called "google". Learn to use it.
"Working people don't have the time to show up just for free pizza."
Ian's pizza is pretty danged good, though. Worth at least a long lunch.
And if the Unions didn't know it, then why did they put out literature during the campaign scaremongering that Walker would "bust" the Unions once elected?
Source?
Reagan: "I'm confused"
Doris: "no one in my business saw it coming at all, and we followed the elections quite closely."
Obdurate obtuseness is not charming.
Garbage proves that, over and over. No need for you two to chime in with more examples.
john d hyland said...
Hey Bushman of the Kohlrabi
If they don't pay property taxes it's probably because they have not made enough money to get a home loan. All of the union people I know pay property taxes. Are the corporations paying their taxes?
You must be the product of the public education system. While corporations ARE taxed, the taxes they pay are reflected in the price of the goods or services they sell to you and me (consumers). The bottom line is that no matter the tax rate, corporations don't pay taxes any more than public employees do.
Employees of private companies, businesses and self-employed individuals pay ALL income taxes and when you get right down to it, consumption taxes. Why is it so?
Public Employees do not produce goods or services that generate wealth. I know this all confuses you, but I don't care.
A continuing comment on the OPPRESSED public employees and public unions - fuck off, clowns!
@Fen:
You don't get to accuse me of not knowing how to use the Google Machine unless you disprove my point by showing that Walker ever discussed ,proposed, or even mentioned the notion of amending Wisconsin law to eliminate collective bargaining but for wages with a cap of 1% CPI. And you didn't.
The Hispanic Conservative and Wash Post blogs contain nice histories of Walker's negotiations with the unions in Milwaukee. He took a tough stance, as have other executives throughout the state. There was no mention of amending 111.70 to take away colletive bargaining but for wages.
The JS snippet is talking specifically about one issue - the health care insurance company choice - and the teachers and boards and WEAC have indeed been discussing that for several years. Eliminating choice on health insurance is a FAR CRY from amending 111.70 to eliminate ALL topics of bargaining but for wages with a cap of 1% CPI.
Admit it - this was an unheard of measure here in Wisconsin -- the Republicans had every right to pass it -- but it shocked the voters.
@JorgXMcKie:
I have lurked on this site years without commenting. I have always found that many of the commentors on Professor Althouse's blog would prefer to shout their opinions into an echo chamber. It really cracks me up how so many of your ilk circle like crows with your ad hominem attacks on the few commentors on this site who disagree with some of your points. YAWN. I dare you to try to find one piece of evidence that Walker dicsussed any notion of amending 111.70 in public, ever. Go ahead and insult me, but you lose this point.
Do these nitwits not know that "gink" is a racial slur?
"Do these nitwits not know that "gink" is a racial slur?"
The Internet doesn't have room to list all the things these nitwits don't know. Just in this thread, we see that they don't know how corporate or property taxes work, don't know that public employees don't create wealth*, don't know that being thugs and vandals is frowned upon by the people who will vote against them again next year, don't know that not spelling out every single word of every bill you will support during your campaign isn't lying...
*I give a little slack on this to road-building public employees, but only a little, because there's a ton of waste in every DOT project I've ever seen.
The Democrat Party is the party of:
slavery
secession
sedition
segregation
socialism
If you're still voting for them, now you know what you are.
except when my government grinds to a halt because the elected officials put re-election and their financial backers ahead of the public good.
It wasn't your intent but you perfectly described how Democrats put public employee unions' interests before those of the public.
Teachers, firefighters, cops, nurses, librarians, teaching assistants, and prison guards are the enemies of all other taxpayers - seriously? You guys are *&^$% in the head.
I live in Detroit and know something about the labor movement. Collective bargaining (as all bargaining is) is an adversarial situation. A private sector union balances the interests of the workers with the interests of the owners of the company. So tell me, if public employees engage in collective bargaining, who is their adversary?
The public, that's who.
----Gee, I wonder if that is being done to make more Milwaukee public schools fail? Let's look into our crystal ball.... ----
We already have catastrophic failure in the Milwaukee public school system. Should we continue to reinforce failure indefinitely, at the cost of the future of our precious children (all of them)?
Lets look into our rearview mirror and see the devastation....
Unlike the militarized federal agencies, the Wisconsin police do not have a proclivity to start shooting. They did not seem to be spoiling for a fight.
And the Wisconsin protestors did not have guns. Or at least they did not bring them to the site of the confrontation.
Someone on the federal side made a good decision to withdraw in the current case.
The next step would be an inquiry into who so many federal agencies now seem to have their own para-military operations. The answer seems to be "because they can." I am not holding my breath waiting for this to happen though.
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