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११७ टिप्पण्या:
Isn't history always "unfolding"? Or does history only unfold on special occasions?
But he is Jesus and the Messiah - what he says has to happen. It's the law and stuff.
What a narcissistic twit.
WV: adogi - what Mubarak thinks Barrack is.
"Isn't history always "unfolding"? Or does history only unfold on special occasions?"
Obama rhetoric is all about saying big things and nothings at the same time.
Change™
Egyptians can expect a trademark lawsuit if they start using that word willy-nilly.
Bingo!
Maybe the world doesn't actually work according to the transformative moments visualizations of President Obama.
You can't be serious.
"Obama rhetoric is all about saying big things and nothings at the same time."
He whispers big nothings in our ears.
The Obama media narrative is a heaping pile of BS. For the first time I am ashamed of my country. How could we have let this two bit phony become our President? Egypt needs an ally and we offer Egypt an Obama Death Panel and watch it die.
Great. You mean like this event?
Or perhaps this event?
Obama coulda been a talking head.
Guess Mubarak knows a blank screen when he sees one.
wv nonatol
The impact Obama is having on Egypt.
The Muslim Brotherhood are looking at each other and saying "We are the ones we've been waiting for."
Didn't the Saudis tell him to seize the future (STFU)?
Given that Mubarak made it abundantly clear nobody cares what he wants and his Intel people have the same timeliness as the "final war warning" to Admiral Kimmel, it's astounding that nobody has told him he's making a bigger fool of himself every day (unless, of course, everyone else in the Administration is afraid of being accused of racism).
Who is in charge of folding history in the first place. Isn't history the discipline of recapturing a story of the past, not watching events as they occur?
Oh, well. Obama is a fraud. How much evidence will bring us to the equivalent of judicial notice?
Who is in charge of folding history in the first place.
God.
We unfold it.
What is absolutely clear.. said Obama.. followed by the most unclear, muddled speech ever.
Mubarak to Barack
History is like a map. You can unfold it, but refolding it can be a real bitch.
In the same basic theme that Instapundit has expressed, its looking like a Carter repeat might be the best outcome we can get.
The President has no grasp of history or culture. He is a child, and a dangerous one. He was never the strong horse, now Mubarak filled the void--again. That's good. Mubarak knows that he has lost the people, but that he retains the power--despite US pressure. He is an Egyptian patriot, and will, in his best lights, govern the transfer of power.
The Egyptians know him--tyrant and all. Why, to this point, the relative restraint of the violence on both sides? They were waiing the emergence of the strong horse. It's still Mubarak--old and tired, but still the man.
Was having lunch at a Chinese place called Ming's in Pleasant Hill. Top 100 Chinese restaurant in the country (or so they advertise). Anyway, I'm having lunch with a couple of friends from work and we are talking about the devastating waffling that Erkle is undertaking with regards to Egypt and his perpetual ineptitude at all things policy. Well, this hipster couple was sitting in the booth on the same row in front of us and hipster female turns around and says, "Can you not talk about the president I voted for proudly in such harsh and demeaning tones please? He's doing the best he can under the circumstances from all of you cons giving him shit constantly about how he's stupid this or loser that. Just stop it!! Give the man a chance."
And then she started to get misty about it. She turns around and proceeds to eat the rest of her meal. Well, hipster male cranes his head to look over to see if anything is going on at our table and I catch his eye and he immediately puts his head down and eats. He says nothing. So my two friends look at each other, then look at me, then we all look at the rest of the restaurant and everyone is staring at this woman at this point. So my buddies look at me again and both start getting that mischievous smirk on their faces because they knew what I was about to do.
So I get out of my booth and I go next to their booth and I stand there for a second looking at the both of them and then settle on hipster woman. She looks at me and says, "Is there something you want?"
so I say, "Yes, as a matter of fact there is. First of all, I'm having a private conversation with my friends, frankly it's rude to interfere if not interrupt said conversation without you butting in on it uninvited. If I wanted your opinion, I'd have asked you for it. But since you rudely horned in on a private conversation with one of your emotionally filled yet highly inaccurate maudlin mewlings, you voted for an a fraud, an empty suit of a man who would rather paint meaningless platitudes to you as if serving heaping mounds of cake that you will so lovingly eat. He was a 2 year senator, who has no experience to do anything, much less legislate, who becomes president, wins the nobel peace prize for no one other reason than his one drop theory of being black, even though he's not, and now we get to watch his incompetence unfold in all it's glory with respect to Tunisia, Egypt, Morocco, and Jordan where he has no message other than platitudes, no firm stance, other than platitudes, no foreign policy acumen, other than platitudes. So if I seem to be giving him shit over not having a plan on how to handle anything correctly because I'm a con then what does that make you, someone who voted for him? Even more idiotic than he is?
Enjoy your meal. As a good sport, I'll even pay for it (and I did)"
Hipster male didn't even lift his head up to look at me. She's just sits there stupefied. And then some guy on the other side of the restaurant yells out "Hey lady, I didn't think this was possible, but he's even worse than Jimmy Carter!!!" and the whole place busts out laughing.
That was my history unfolding transformative moment, brought to you by the letters F and U and the number 42. Fuck these people and their bullshit. I'm done playing nice.
We could save a lot of money by firing the entire CIA and just calling the Psychic Hot Line twice a day. Obama wouldn't know the difference, neither would Hillary!, this is the biggest bunch of screwups since the MacNamara Defense Dept.
Don't you guys remember during the election when Obama was saying that all we had to do was for foreign policy was sit down and be thoughtful and reasonable? Remember that? It, was of course, while Obama was also suggesting that it would be a good idea to invade Pakistan to catch terrorist bad guys, but never mind.
So, yeah, at the center of the Arab universe, where pride and shame are everything, be the United States saying with certainty that a dictator bent on preventing shame and having pride is going to step down. That'll work.
Also, call the Muslim Brotherhood non-religious. Brilliant, dudes! Brilliant.
The arc of unfolding history is long, and it bends toward winning the future.
its looking like a Carter repeat might be the best outcome we can get...
To get a Carter repeat, we'd need a Reagan to prevent him from getting a second term. So far there doesn't seem to be another Reagan out there. None of the Republicans inspire.
Imagine if Carter had won a second term........that may be what we're looking at.
...and we are talking about the devastating waffling that Erkle is undertaking with regards to Egypt
LOLOL - perfect
SO WHY DIDN'T HE SAT THIS ABOUT IRAN?
Gah.
You can look in these archives to see that I said in October 2008 that we would look back at 2008 as a strange, almost surreal time in American history where Americans got vapidly caught up in something utterly vapid.
At least for Egyptians, this thing they are caught up in is serious and it is fraught with meaning. Like people may very well die tomorrow serious and like what they are as a people meaning.
We didn't have anything like that going for us in 2008, just a nerdy, totally inexperienced half-black dude running for president to help us atone for our racist past. It's kind of embarrassing really.
John Lynch -- Funny you mention Iran. Iran was the country Obama was going to charm into a lovely new dawn of a relationship with the United States.
How is that going?
The fifteen million ethnic Egyptian Coptic Christians are in need of Hosni and his men to stand strong in these evil days of Moslem Power. The Israeli defense from annihilation is in need of Hosni and his men to stand strong in these evil days of Moslem Power. So Obama just wants Hosni removed ASAP, even against the Saudi's advice. That tells us which side Obama has always been on.
Ha ha. Mubarak played Barack as Barack played the American voters. Turnabout's a bitch - too bad the joke is on all of us - but we asked for it, voting for the emptiest suit hanging from the rack. Ha ha.
I think there's a lot to be said for the possibility of a democratic Egypt. If South Korea can do it, why not them?
In public, the United States should say make bland proclamations about the usual: freedoms, democracy, equality. Sadly, Obama is an idiot in need of the heroic and cannot prevent himself from interceding in public. Thus, he'll never be heroic in this arena.
The only "transformation" Obama-lama-ding-dong can interest me in is when he transforms himself out of the White House and into a Community Organizers position in Iran or some other backwater destination... What an abysmal failure this ass-clown is and who knows what dangers he has exposed all of us to with his ineptitude?
@ Methadras...funny story, keep fighting the good fight.
Seize The Future, Urkel!
Are the anti-BHO folks against him because he's not supporting Mubarak staying in power?
Or, are you folks upset because he's not kicking him out?
Either way I don't think he or anyone can control the situation over there.
If he backs Mubarak, he needs to allow Mubarak to crack some heads and kill some (a lot?) of folks so people are afraid to challenge the regime. But, what if the military (as seems likely) refuses this order? We end up supporting the losing side. So, not only is Mubarak hated and cast out, but we could be too, a la the Iranian Revolution.
If BHO's supposed to be pushing Mubarak out faster, he doesn't really have many options. We can see that Mubarak is a dictator who's not leaving because we (or his people) ask him to do so. Withholding our money is hardly a threat, obviously he definitely won't get the dough if he leaves, so he'd lose that if he does as we'd like, and he'd lose it if he stayed. And, I'm not sure that we give them too much money anyway (supposedly Mubarak's got seventy billion hidden, but the max we have given them is two billion a year).
So, then we'd need to get some other force to remove Mubarak. We could invade. But, preemptive wars are out of fashion. So, we could scheme w/ some indigenous coup plotters. In either situation we need to pick and support Mubarak's replacement. Then we need to hope they're capable of and/or interested in rewriting Egypt's government so that some non-Muslim-Brotherhood entity can seize power and keep Egyptians satisfied and pro-Western. BTW, our selected interim dictator needs to be prepared to mow down enough of the protesting population to subdue the current revolutionary spirit, just in case the Egyptians balk at our "help."
It seems that trying harder to get rid of Mubarak or trying to keep him in power lead to the same place--we'd need to be prepared to support an Egyptian regime while it kills large numbers of protesting citizens so that our will can supersede their own.
Put simply: If Mubarak, w/ his institutional entrenchment and dictatorial prowess is losing control of Egypt to the population, I don't think we should assume that it'd be easy for us to do any better. In other words: this is a moment of transformation that's taking place because the people of Egypt are calling for change, like it, or not.
ijpb -- I agree with you that too many people on my side take the "Obama-is-for-it-then-I'm-against-it" approach. That's wrong and those people are being immature. I hasten to add, however, that the "Bush-is-for-it-then-I'm-against-it" were and remain laughable idiots.
All of that said, the larger point here is that Obama should shut the fuck up. You don't operate in this arena this way. You utter platitudes about peace, love, democracy, and freedom. And you send whoever your James Baker is over there to insist on your interests, whatever they are.
Either way I don't think he or anyone can control the situation over there.
That being the case, proclamations about how important it is to the United States that "x" happens - where "x" can be Mubarak leaving or Mubarak staying or any other damn thing - just let the world know how little influence we have. But Obama keeps making these grandiose proclamations anyway.
So I guess I'm against him because he's not as smart as you are.
Just words.
Jimmy Carter 2.0
Obama folds history like freshly dried towels.
Are the anti-BHO folks against him because he's not supporting Mubarak staying in power?
Or, are you folks upset because he's not kicking him out?
Either way I don't think he or anyone can control the situation over there.
I am against him because, again, he has screwed the pooch. The Obama Administration has acted like a bunch of rank amateurs here, and done more harm than good.
It would have been one thing if the Administration had managed to slide Mubarak out the door quietly. But, openly pressuring him just forced him to dig his heels in. This is what a State Department is for, but apparently, Obama and his staff didn't trust Secretary Clinton and her people here, and tried to go around them. Not clear yet exactly what happened, but the last people who should have been saying anything about Mubarak leaving are those in the White House. That makes it an issue of face for Mubarak. And, if there is anyway that he can stay on, until next fall, this forced him to try to do so.
It has been a comedy of errors and screw-ups, from the inept handling of Mubarak to the intelligence community being caught with their pants down and DNI Clapper telling reporters that the Muslim Brotherhood was secular and non-violent, etc.
The other thing that I don't think that they either thought through or realized was the downside of a "revolution" gone bad. In short, what happened under Jimmy Carter with Iran. Only this time, we should remember what happened 30 years ago, Egypt is the spiritual center of the Arab world, the putative new power is known for their violence and religious fervor, there are millions of Christians likely to be butchered by a fundamentalist Muslim takeover, there are more Egyptians than Iranians, Egypt controls a strategic and critical canal, and Egypt is currently helping to keep arms out of Gaza.
I am not suggesting that we should have turned our back on the protesters, like they did in Iran, but rather, that the entire situation should have been handled with the utmost in care. And, it wasn't.
Are the anti-BHO folks against him because he's not supporting Mubarak staying in power? Or, are you folks upset because he's not kicking him out?
I don't know if it would be in our best interests if Mubarak left, or if he stayed. Then again, I don't have a $130 billion diplomatic and espionage force at my beck and call.
What I do know is that refusing to either support OR oppose Mubarak is idiotic, as evidenced by the fact that both the pro- and anti-Mubarak groups are now convinced our sympathies are with the other side. No matter who wins, it is a diplomatic loss for us.
Let me be clear, history is unfolding right before our eyes.
It is unfolding like an origami bird that flattens out into a square paper colored on one side and white on the other with fold lines all over it that is then refolded into a similar shape along similar fold lines except resulting in a frog instead of a bird. No wait, sorry it's not unfolding like that. History is unfolding like a baby stroller unfolds from a flat contraption that stores easily in a narrow space but then unfolds into a working vehicle in which a baby is taken for an outside stroll safely under the guidance of their parent although in front of them like a push lawn mower and sometimes dangerously shoved in crowded places like museums. No wait wait wait wait, that's not it either. History is unfolding like a lawn chair that springs open on a beach upon which one plants their narrow ass for a weekend and votes "present." That's what history is unfolding like.
Ann Althouse said,
"Obama rhetoric is all about saying big things and nothings at the same time".
Well, you fell for it.
I get the feeling that Mubarak is more of a statesman, and has more love of country than Obama (the Usurper). Not that that's saying much.
we now know that american ‘intelligence’ was getting its insights into the developments in egypt from…CNN !!! in other words, barack is getting his information from the clueless wolf blitzer, the dreamy-eyed anderson cooper and the america-hating christiane amanpour. if this isn’t the perfect example of the liberal snake devouring its own tail, then i don’t know what is.
If he backs Mubarak, he needs to allow Mubarak to crack some heads and kill some (a lot?) of folks so people are afraid to challenge the regime. But, what if the military (as seems likely) refuses this order? We end up supporting the losing side. So, not only is Mubarak hated and cast out, but we could be too, a la the Iranian Revolution.
Can anyone provide any evidence that this diatribe has merit? I've heard this story on Fox and CNN. I was told when I went to bed that there would be violence in Egypt because Mubarek refused to step down. That the protestors were marching to the Presidential Palace.
8 hours have passed since I saw the various predictions last night. Yet, when I check the news this morning, nothing's changed. The headlines are still, "Angry Egyptian Gather to Protest" and "Day of Rage Expected". That's the same breaking news for the past week. Apparently Mubarek's speech changed nothing. The military hasn't done anything.
When I see the events occurring that are being predicted; then maybe I'll actually believe what the Media is telling me. And now that we know that the President and his Intelligence staff is using the Media for its data source; we can understand why they are making poor decisions, such as announcing Mubarek would leave when he hasn't.
It's a misdirection to conceal that nothing that Obama has ever said has made any sense.
Greatest line ever w/ respect to the president and Egypt was a question as to how he could know what the people in the street in CAiro wanted but didn't know what the people in the US wanted.
"What is absolutely clear..."
Did everybody take a drink when they read that?
1jpb, if Obama doesn't have many options left now, it's his own clueless fault. Here's what he could have done -- and was clearly warned to do --- while he still could. Note how closely what has been happening for the past couple of weeks tracks what the group warned would happen if Obama did -- well, exactly what he did.
Obama is a joke. I cannot believe we elected him.
The word "change" is a joke.
History doesn't unfold. It rolls out like lavish wrapping paper, which is then cut into forms and used to box each of us up, to be placed under the tree that is the future.
Or maybe it unrolls like saran wrap, seeking to preserve the choice moments and memories, but often in the process bunching up and clinging to itself, never quite being cut like we ideally wanted, but eventually doing the job as well as possible, but not being entirely sealing there are some leaks and eventually the memories and lessons are lost, thrown out, or become moldy
History folds and unfolds, like a burrito from the Möbius Strip Café.
Honestly, I don't know what Obama is supposed to do here.
America, I think, is right to step in at certain moments. I agreed with the invasion of Iraq, for instance.
But here, the ideal of regime change is being propelled by a movement of the people. America needs to continue to offer its support for true freedom and real democracy--even if this means risking people voting in ways we don't like.
At the same time, because it is propelled by the people we should let the people continue to propel it. The best approach America can take is to watch from the sidelines, making sure the Army knows we will not accept brutal attacks on the people. We can encourage restraint, and put our weight behind it, but I just don't see the benefit of some proactive move.
Honestly, what I do see is a lot of people who don't like Obama continuing to not like Obama, and finding more reasons to justify this dislike. Even as, if it was a president they liked in other ways, they would be likely arguing in behalf of the president.
I just don't see this, as yet, of a real test of Obama nor should we judge him on the events that are really being driven by the Egyptian people. And I say this as someone who also doesn't like Obama.
I wish I coulda seen that, Methadras.
History streams out and congeals into a sticky, foamy mass like silly string.
Leland, from what I could tell listening to Al Jazeera is that everyone was saying that "tomorrow" would be the beginning of a new stage.
So, they were predicting big events on Friday, which is today, not instant fervor and revolution.
There is a new attitude in everyone I heard interviewed, so I think this new attitude of resistance is still orienting itself with what to do. Which can be more dangerous to Mubarak, because this isn't a mob trying to cause disorder. This is the people saying, 'no more.'.
"I just don't see this, as yet, of a real test of Obama nor should we judge him on the events..."
I am not criticizing this administration for what happens in Egypt, just their reaction to it.
And that has been mishandled.
The diplomacy has been feckless, second-rate, vacillating, and incomprehensible.
What Egypt does is out of our hands. But the US and the world needs reassurance that there are adults at the wheel here. Instead, we get the Random Platitude Generator.
For God's sake, doesn't anyone in Washington have a copy of Machiavelli laying around? Criminey.
Are the anti-BHO folks against him because he's not supporting Mubarak staying in power?
Or, are you folks upset because he's not kicking him out?
I am upset that Presdent Brilliant is constantly looking incompetent on the foreign stage. Probably because his CIA guy is getting his briefings from CNN. We are so screwed.
From the WSJ today:
"I don't think Mubarak trusts too many people from the U.S. anymore," the Arab diplomat said. "It looks like Omar Suleiman is the right point of contact, but they're all ticked off with the U.S. position, which they view as throwing Mubarak under the bus."
We're in the best of hands.
And they've got top men on it.
Top. Men.
SteveR said...
In the same basic theme that Instapundit has expressed, its looking like a Carter repeat might be the best outcome we can get.
I'm thinking we're in better shape. It's a shorter flight for the SO birds, our operatoors are a lot better trained, and the 6th fleet can stand off Alexandria while we fly in to get the Embassy off the roof.
I only hope they started their burn regime, cuz that takes a long time IMHO.
I'd also put the thermite plates onto the top of the crypto gear, but would not yet hook them up. I think we have that much time...
7M, what do you think?
1jpb, Seven Machos and Pogo I think distill my concerns about this administration's ham handed attempts at diiplomacy.
Seems to me folks like Allen S and others have consistently pointed our there are no good outcomes. If that be true then the best course of action is to assess what levers of influence and use them while issuing bland statements designed to not take sides. Regretably the President's Cairo speech pretty much was an abdication of US influence in the region. Mr Obama sowed the wind on that one.
Then there is the whole issue with the other arab regimes who, I suspect have seen Mr Obama assessed his knowledge and resolve and found it lacking--Hell if Richard Fernandez is correct, the saudis have told Mubarek they will make up any money the US withholds from Egpyt-Then KSA stuck a big finger in Mr Obamas eye.
I would suggest that while Mr Bush's aspirations for the middle east in terms of democracy may not have been properly nuanced, it was clear and backed up by action in Iraq. Mr Obama's touchy feely "diplomacy" has most definitely not improved the situation. Mr Obama needs to STFU, fire his intelligence apparatus, and wait. I fear the only lesson the leaders of the ME will take is the US is not reliable for either friends or enemies and can safely be ignored.
Maybe the world doesn't actually work according to the transformative moments visualizations of President Obama.
Good for Mubarak. Ann needed someone extraordinarily wrong to lead us for our time.
Mick,
"Obama rhetoric is all about saying big things and nothings at the same time".
Well, you fell for it.
Next stop: wargasm.
Roger J said...Mr Obama needs to STFU, fire his intelligence apparatus, and wait.
getting excess Embassy staff and files out now would be useful. In my limited experience, when things start turning to shit, they go pretty fast :)
The fewer peole that we need to rescue or in Obama's case ransom, the better.
Face it Ann, Obama is clueless. Clueless about 95 percent of his job.
Pray the U.S. is still in at least fair shape in 2012 cause we do need a change in leadership. Badly need a change in leadership.
As paternalistic as the Administration and their ilk tend to come off, they failed even the most basic tenet of parenting. Never send mixed messages.
This is the primary failure of foreign policy re: Egypt.
Maybe the world doesn't actually work according to the transformative moments visualizations of President Obama.
Obama rhetoric is all about saying big things and nothings at the same time.
You broke the code, Professor!
Our strongest and most important ally in Egypt is not Mubarak, nor any other regime -- it is the Army, and has been for decades.
This should not have been so difficult for the Obama administration to learn. Then again, idealogues are almost never trainable, since by self-definition they already have all the answers that matter.
Methadras, nice move. I love that you did that.
... the most impressive student I had ever taught was quietly pursuing his own political trajectory. In 1989, I had met Barack Obama and hired him as my research assistant while he was still just a first-year Harvard law student. His stunning combination of analytical brilliance and personal charisma, openness and maturity, vision and pragmatism, was unmistakable from my very first encounter with the future president. Laurence Tribe November 2008
Sigh.
As history unfolds it will be interesting to see what the historians make of all this.
"Either way I don't think he or anyone can control the situation over there."
Certainly not any of the apologizers in the Obama administration. They don't want to shape events- like that cowboy George Bush- so instead they will get shaped by them.
With their lack of leadership ability they have rendered the US powerless on the world stage. The liberal elite should be happy. They wanted a weakened US, and they got it.
Larry Tribe, wrong on Obama, wrong on, well, everything else, too. Obama smart - smrt!
WV: repatt - what Obama will be when he moves to Kenya.
I noticed the oceans ain't getting any lower either (although the snow IS piling up.) Then again, I never believed they would to begin with....
CharlesVegas said...
Seize The Future, Urkel!
Charles - Sarah Palin ruined the "Winning The Future" campaign theme with her WTF? comments. Seize The Future has now been purloined by you, with the addition of "Urkel". Thank you for that. May I buy a t-shirt?
Paddy O at 7:07 and 7:09: History doesn't unfold. It rolls out like lavish wrapping paper, which is then cut into forms and used to box each of us up, to be placed under the tree that is the future....Or maybe it unrolls like saran wrap, seeking to preserve the choice moments and memories, but often in the process bunching up and clinging to itself, never quite being cut like we ideally wanted, but eventually doing the job as well as possible, but not being entirely sealing there are some leaks and eventually the memories and lessons are lost, thrown out, or become moldy
You know, don't you, that the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest deadline is not until April 15, don't you? I think you have the germ of an opening sentence to the world's worst novel there.
God unfolding in history is a Hegelian concept that Marx picked up and ran with -- that all of history is something foreordained by God. I don't think God is really doing much about history, and is basically staying out of it.
Obama has really nutty paradigms.
That's what he's really saying.
"Have really nutty paradigms that I've never questioned and am not capable of questioning."
Egypt has needed an ally for a long time and all that we have offered for thirty years is more military aid to support a dictator. It is foolish to think that this administration can suddenly change course. After all our thirty years of support has helped fuel the anti-American sentiments in the region, and now to suddenly jump into Egypt's affairs and do more than to say we support democracy and freedom would be a bold step that even the Republicans have not taken. That said, it would be nice to see Obama stand up once to the rich and powerful whether they be on Wall Street, or in Egypt
Just think ... there was talk of Obama nominating LT to SCOTUS.
"... they have rendered the US powerless on the world stage. The liberal elite should be happy. They wanted a weakened US, and they got it."
This has been Obamas plan all along.
MathMom, ha!
That's a great idea!
(The Crypto Jew)
R-V, the problem, IMO, with this Administration/Regime is encapsulated by Clapper and his “Muslim Brotherhood is secular organization” statement…this Administration is very Leftist Realpolitik….they KNOW it’s not true, but they have to say it, to justify the “inevitability” of the Brotherhood coming to power…It’s story they tell themselves to make this more palatable.
Clapper thinks they set up child care centers too. To serve Coptic Christians and Jews.
Is he married to Patty Murray?
wv inglyz
I'm in Puerto Rico, so that's what I speak.
Kirby, God's work in history is definitely something that Hegel emphasized and expressed in a very distinct, influential way. It was picked up by Marx and honed even further.
But, the concept of God working in history isn't Hegel's concept or Marx. That's something that theologians/philosophers have been interested in for quite a very long time.
For instance, Joachim of Fiore gave a classic Medieval description and more recently German theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg basically constructed his entire theological project on the idea that God reveals himself in and through history.
So, it's not really a Hegelian or Marxist concept. Though, since Hegel made such a monumental proposal about it, it's often lumped into being Hegel's sole territory. Sadly. Because he was so utterly wrong about both historiography and theology.
Methedras said..
"Fuck these people and their bullshit. I'm done playing nice."
Nice. Right back at you. When I see the enormity of the bullshit in the thread above, I can't wait for 2012. I can't wait to roll up my sleeves and just steamroll whatever chump the right offers up as a candidate and get Obama another 4 years... not just to see goons like Methedras choke on their own bile, but that will be awfully nice.
The fact that Althouse hasn't shown any understanding or thoughtfulness about the Egyptian protests from the beginning and finally has found her stride in posting about it-- but only as it relates to some idiotic conception about how events somehow humiliate Obama and "The Media" or whatever-- is PATHETIC. Your first response to an incredibly inspiring showing of grassroots action in a repressed society should NOT be snark that relates back to your petty partisan obsessions, btw.
But, the concept of God working in history isn't Hegel's concept or Marx.
"Bruce here teaches classical philosophy, Bruce there teaches Haegelian philosophy, and Bruce here teaches logical positivism. And is also in charge of the sheep dip."
Classic.
So, if Egypt is such a mess, what would YOU do? Declare war on Egypt? and which side? support the public? Who would take Mubarak's place?
What are Palin's solutions? McCain's? Boehner's? or do you just enjoy bashing someone you disagree with most of the time because even you do not know what to do?
I hate to say this, as I've never been an Obama fan, but the right have officially jumped the shark. You sound EXACTLY like the liberals during the W years. What in the world makes ANY of you think that Obama or W or Palin or McCain could have controlled what happened in Egypt. Remember, Iran Mullahs started after Carter and continued after Reagan,and Reagan abandoned Lebanon to the extremist so he could have a chance to get reelected.
And conservatives have no right to talk...y'all had so much faith in fixing Iraq and Afghanistan and we are still losing soldiers and citizens over two wars that started with W. So be careful what you wish for, or you will be tap dancing excuses when YOUR guy can't clean up the next mess, perhaps as soon as 2012.
What in the world makes ANY of you think that Obama or W or Palin or McCain could have controlled what happened in Egypt.
I can't speak for those you noted or what they would do in the same situation, but in the absence of that it's still worth observing the hamfisted, incoherent, and at times contradictory public messaging this administration has done with this crisis.
And conservatives have no right to talk
Yes, we do. Says so somewhere in a document I once read.
y'all had so much faith in fixing Iraq and Afghanistan and we are still losing soldiers and citizens over two wars that started with W.
You need to educate yourself on the conservative view versus the neocon view. Until you do so, it would be wise to cease painting with a 6' wide roller.
Franglo is it possible that Bush and his billion dollar wars and bombs that has not brought democracy to the Middle East, in contrast to the Obama administrations' softer approach giving speeches in Egypt etc. that seems to have been more effective is why the Althouse right has been so confused about these matters.
franglo has it right.
had this occured under McCain, we would have heard the same stuff "give him a chance"..."how is he supposed to know how Mubarak would act?" from the right
And the left would be making the same comments as I see above.
Even a couple of comments at WSJ who are not Obama fans who admit that America cannot control what's going on in Egypt. And I want us away from that nest because the protesters have no single person they want to replace Mubarak. That can only lead to political rivalry, civil war and the increased chance of Iran/Muslim Brotherhood influence/takeover
The only valid criticism of Obama is the fickleness of responses. Heck, he was signing copies of his book yesterday in WI (if Limbaugh is to be believed) but what I see here at althouse is schadenfreude -- the same attitude liberals had during the W. years. And that brings no solutions whatsoever.
(The Crypto Jew)
Franglo is it possible that Bush and his billion dollar wars and bombs that has not brought democracy to the Middle East, in contrast to the Obama administrations' softer approach giving speeches in Egypt etc. that seems to have been more effective is why the Althouse right has been so confused about these matters.
Yeah that’s why there were ELECTIONS in Iraq…because the war did NOT bring democracy….and Obama’s “speeches” DID bring democracy? Really so Obmam called for Mubarak to step down? WHEN? Yesterday? The day before?
Scott, I've been paying attention for 5 years. Instapundit, althouse, hot air, even grouchy old cripple. And the song remains the same.
When it's YOUR guys, you will defend them to the end. Just like liberals
When it's NOT your guys, you try to destroy them. Just like liberals
And you still have not answered my question...what answers do the Republicans have to solve the Egyptian crisis?
Yet another example of incoherence from Obama. Our ship of state is adrift. I think Valerie Jarrett is actually the "decider" in this joke of a White House.
A second term? God help us.
Scott M,
Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya''bout the raising of the wrist.
SOCRATES, HIMSELF, WAS PERMANENTLY PISSED...
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, on half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away; half a crate of whiskey every day.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
Hobbes was fond of his dram,
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: "I drink, therefore I am"
Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed; a lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed!
~compiled by the fine faculty of the philosophy department of the University of Woolamaloo
(The Crypto Jew)
And you still have not answered my question...what answers do the Republicans have to solve the Egyptian crisis?
I don’t think too many here would say that Palin/McCain would have foreseen this…BUT they sure would have taken a more CONSISTENT stand…we’ve had about 7 positions in 7 days…and then Panetta talking about “intelligence” he got from CNN and Clapper describing the Muslim Brotherhood as a SECULAR and non-violent organization just screams, “AMATUER HOUR!”
Sorry, your guyz and galz may be the best and brightest, the SMARTEST PEPEOLZ in the WHOLE-WIDE WHORL, but if this the best game they got, as DBQ says, “We are SO screwed!”
Conservatives are basically in a bind, as we've seen in the past few years in Iraq and Afghanistan. On one hand, they believe we are in a war of civilization against Islam, so they approve of killing Muslims wherever possible and are pro-interventionists in that sense. On the other hand, the wars we're actually fighting and the foreign policy we have to engage in force us to deal with Muslims as if their faith doesn't make them subhuman fanatics. Paying lip service to religious diversity, as enshrined in our founding documents, conflicts with the deeper impulse to "turn the desert into glass" or a parking lot or just bomb all them already. Not to mention Hussein Odumbo is at once a naive appeaser and also a closet islamist militant cause his popppa was born in Keenya and he's a communazi.
When it's YOUR guys, you will defend them to the end. Just like liberals
Bullshit. First of all, you haven't been paying must attention here if you think Bush is one of "my guys" or that I view everyone right of center infallible. Ideologues of any stripe will defend "their guys" to the end...not a big news flash. Those residing hereabouts, though, with a couple of notable exceptions and moby's, are not ideologues.
When it's NOT your guys, you try to destroy them. Just like liberals
Again, bullshit. See above.
And you still have not answered my question...what answers do the Republicans have to solve the Egyptian crisis?
You seem to suffer from a malady that suggests we can "solve" the Egyptian crisis. Paternalistic thinking at best. Sure, if we still had some leadership gravitas on the world stage, we would be able to assert influence, but that's gone swirly with both the last administration and this one's incompetent handling since.
had this occured under McCain, we would have heard the same stuff "give him a chance"..."how is he supposed to know how Mubarak would act?" from the right
Not likely. McCain is not a darling of the right. If he dithered like Obama, he would've been attacked from all sides.
~compiled by the fine faculty of the philosophy department of the University of Woolamaloo
My son's name is Bruce, after his grandfather and great-grandfather. I would dearly love to get a poster-sized image of that sketch for his wall. Don't think I haven't been looking. The problem with trying to screen-cap it appears to be that it's on such old format that any enlarged image would be too pixelated.
Can we all agree on the fact that the CIA is pretty much the problem.
The NSA, of course, is filled with fine patriotic men and women doing an amazing job, especially if this includes monitoring blog comment sections.
There's also the reality, I think, that is also a problem with how people view the medical profession.
We think that with all our technology, money, advancement and such that if there is a mistake it must be clear bumbling or error.
But the fact is that the world, the people in it, our bodies, are immensely complex and just can't always been predicted. Trends and tendencies can be highlighted. Approaches likely to work can be encouraged, but at the end of the day there is mystery.
And we moderns despise mystery in any form, because Science is supposed to explain it All.
I really do think that the situation in Egypt is entirely fluid and entirely human, which means that it's really entirely unpredictable. The politicians here and around the world are trying to play a game of making sure not to entirely anger one side while showing cautious support for the other, because at the end of the day we have to work with whoever is in power.
I think the US would do best by working behind the scenes to make sure there's no violence but to let the country of Egypt, its people, push for their own path.
Fox reports Mubarak steps down. 6:07p Cairo
(The Crypto Jew)
Key points
1. A day after declaring he would stay in power until September, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is reported to have left Cairo for the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.
2. A huge crowd has gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square for a mass demonstration.
3. There are also protests outside the state TV HQ, at the presidential palace and in Alexandria.
4. Egypt's army says it will end the country's state of emergency when the current unrest ends.
5. Live page reporters: Aidan Lewis and Adam Blenford
6. All times in GMT.
From the BBC….
(The Crypto Jew)
1) Is he gone? Because I knew he was on his way to Sharm el-Sheikh this morning? Is this news?
2) Who will take his place, Washington or Kerenski?
The vice-President went on Egypt state tv and stated that Mubarak was stepping down from his position as president and handing power over the military to run the country.
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Now we'll see what will fill the void.
Joe, it's official.
Cairo is in celebration.
(The Crypto Jew)
Joe, it's official.
Cairo is in celebration.
Ok, wasn’t sure….OK next up the Secular Organization of the Muslim Brotherhood…..
Ok, wasn’t sure….OK next up the Secular Organization of the Muslim Brotherhood
Are there secular Catholic Brotherhoods? How about secular Jewish Brotherhoods?
Obama is merely Karnak, the Magnificent. He reads the answers (which Joe "McMahon" Biden then repeats), then comes up with the questions.
wv: ingynge - what cowboys fight...
(The Crypto Jew)
Are there secular Catholic Brotherhoods? How about secular Jewish Brotherhoods?.
I have some knowledge of both, there are…we’re interested only in the SECULAR spread of our religious views and a SECULAR shaping of Modern Society to conform to them…Purely Secular……
Truly a terrible day for Egypt. Mubarak has stepped down, and the next leader of the country is bound to be... GASP... a MUSLIM!
"Maybe the world doesn't actually work according to the transformative moments visualizations of President Obama."
Or maybe... it does
Anyone have any friends in the Mossad? I'm betting they know exactly what's going to happen.
Paddy O, oh, you meant "God in history" doesn't begin with Hegel. It took me a while to see what you meant.
I think one of the great problems for the left is that they have gotten this Hegelian weed into their thinking (the idea that progress is inherent to history, and that you are either with HISTORY, or against it).
I don't think history is necessarily progressive.
It can go in any direction. Mubarak's staying in may be the best thing until they can get other parties into place and have an orderly election. Mubarak apparently arrested many secular leaders.
They need to be let out, given six months to organize their parties, and then have a vote.
Otherwise this country will go into the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood.
I'd like to see the Copts put a party together, and others, and maybe give them at least six months.
Scott M said...
Anyone have any friends in the Mossad? I'm betting they know exactly what's going to happen.
The Mossad is more professional than the CIA. They keep quiet about what they know and don't know.
I'd like to see the Copts put a party together, and others, and maybe give them at least six months.
If they were smart, either the Isaeli's or the Lebanese Christians would think about taking the Copts.
I only see forced conversions in their future...
What is 'absolutel clear' is that Obama and his staff have no clue. They have no idea which way to jump.
So they wait for the winds to tell them which way to go.
For the Obama administration and for Progressive Democrats . . .
history unfolds like flatpacks of furniture from Ikea.
But they can't understand the instructions. They don't know how to use the tools. And when they do get something put together . . it falls apart rather quickly.
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