One of the survivors of the Tucson massacre, Eric Fuller, says that is what he wrote down after staying up "most of the night" in the hospital, trying to calm himself down and organize his thoughts, and writing out (from memory) the text of the Declaration of Independence.
ADDED: Patterico notes:
But you never hear them ask the obvious follow up question: do you still feel this way? And if you look at the rest of the report, created today, it is obvious that these people are completely dishonest. They have deliberately skewed every other piece of evidence to indict the right wing, leaving out every piece of evidence that might exonerate their targets. Why should we think they presented this man’s entire statement?
पोस्ट्स
१५९ टिप्पण्या:
There's no way on Earth this guy deserved to be shot. What's sad is that, judging from his prose style, he and Loughner have an awful lot in common, cognitively speaking. If they'd met over a beer, they'd be the best of friends, trading word salad until they slid under the table together.
Mr. Fuller, who do these people hate? Do you KNOW these people?
A world based on dangerous assumptions is dangerous, indeed.
wv - axiou
Reduce the deficit
What more can be said? These people are dead set on profiting politically from the murder of 6 people and maiming and traumatization of countless more. Decent people have largely fled the Left, this tack may drive the remaining few out.
The take on this at Ace's is the best, thus far:
"Now upon further reflection, [Fuller] is blaming Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, John Boehner, and Sharon Angle. When asked by the media why he now describes the event using left wing talking points.....just kiddlng. No one in the media asked him that."
Sounds very much like PTSD. I wouldn't hold him responsible for being a bit crazy at such a moment. Ask him in five years.
The shooter directly followed Halprin's blueprint for a "catastrophe" that would permit Obama to show leadership. Why has no one, and I mean no one, suggested that perhaps this kid thought this was a way to destroy his political opponents by setting up the crisis Obama needed?
It sounds like the DNC has already organized Mr. Fuller's thoughts for him.
Still, rambling fool he might be, thank God he survived.
First brainwashed... then shot.
Unfortunate.
Well the guy was a partisan before he got shot, and he was one after. He jumped to conclusions before the facts were in like most partisans. What is galling is that he is still not backing down. And no, being shot does not give him moral authority to slander people who had nothing to do with the shooting. If anything it makes him worse - he is exploiting his own tragedy for political gain. Disgusting.
@kent
"First brainwashed... then shot.
Unfortunate."
LOL. Now that's funny.
Could it be said Mr. Fuller reacted 'stupidly'???
We have to cut the guy a break. He is entitled to think and say whatever he wants. He should not be exploited by the main stream media and the fellow travelers but he could end up being the Cindy Sheehan of this episode. He should take a lesson from what happened to her. They will take him and use him up and when they are finished they will toss him away like a freshly aborted fetus.
I hope he can heal. In every sense of the word.
A 63-year-old disabled veteran survivor...
That's suppose to be the gamechanger info here so let's go ahead infringe the first and second amendments and above all stop Sarah Palin from running for anything.
These people will just not let go will they? There is an awful lot at stake mind you.
He underwent a terrible trauma and whatever (within some limits such as advocating counter-violence or something) he says is pretty much okay.
This gentleman is not the person you'll want to respond to on the claims that Palin/Beck/Angle were culpable in that.
Let him heal.
Trooper York said...We have to cut the guy a break.
You are much to kind blogfather. I think Sarah Palin has a grip on him. Release the Kegels!
But...was he able to write down the Declaration? How much did he forget or get wrong?
wv: uramient.
No, I'm not! Uramient!
so. Eric Fuller is an idiot.
He's a Democrat.
Therefore, he's an idiot. Democrats are idiots.
Well hell, the debate is over then - so sayeth the liberal, Mr. Fuller.
I more or less agree that the guy should get some time off before being interviewed. Too bad them media didn't get the memo.
Given that, is not Sharron Angle a oddly obscure politician to make this scapegoat list? She's a failed senatorial candidate with no likely political future.
Given Angle, you know who's missing? Christine O'Donnell. If you're trying to figure out who could make an apolitical crazy person go shoot people, wouldn't you blame a witch?
In other news, I hear that the Discovery channel is teaming up with the Vatican to host an exorcism reality show.
at least one
Let's be kind to the man. He was wounded.
It's only natural to blame Sarah Palin when you are wounded. It's the first thing that comes to anyone's mind.
I suspect the Bamster will use him as a prop in the State of the Union show.
In his place I might think Sarah Palin shot me too. Mistaking oneself for a moose is one of the forms PTSD can take.
Oh, and it seems that Mr. Fuller did not believe Barry when he said it wasn't Palin/Beck/Angle/the right's fault.
See what I meant in earlier threads . . . the left is incapable of toning things down. All we have to do is sit back and enjoy their continuing their slide to irrelevancy, and hopfully taking Barry with them.
Sarah Palin = the left's designated Emmanuel Goldstein.
More Blood Libel. And all because the Soros owned Dems lost many Mid Term House seats in the last election. What do they pull next if this trick doesn't work? A faked attack upon Obama may be coming next. Soros said Obama is expendable if he cannot get the Cap and Trade prize that Soros always wanted above all else. I say No Blood for Wind Power.
I think I understand how the Sheriff first put together a theory of the crime so quickly.. within less than an hour.
Pima County sheriff DuPnik Puts InstaPundit to Pasture.. his talents are being wasted as a mere sheriff...
Maybe the press conference was his chance at immortality.. a viral video.
Ah, the new James Brady.
Shouldn't be long before the Dems have a "Fuller bill" on the house floor restricting guns, gun metaphors or both.
Never let a crisis go to waste.
Well, Mr. Fuller, as the President said: "It did not."
Get well though.
Truly.
Democracy Now! THE WAR AND PEACE REPORT doesn't exactly appear to be one of your more calm, reasoned websites.
To wit: "Pioneering the largest public media collaboration in the U.S., Democracy Now! is broadcast on Pacifica, NPR, community, and college radio stations; on public access, PBS, satellite television (DISH network: Free Speech TV ch. 9415 and Link TV ch. 9410; DIRECTV: Free Speech TV ch. 348 and Link TV ch. 375); and on the internet."
Be interesting to see what Fuller's politics are.
Get behind thee, Satan!
The 50 year obsession of the left with painting middle class (and lower class) white people as irredeemable bigots is now playing out in an extraordinarily evil way.
Palin is the focal point of this morality play.
The left is determined to continue to brand middle class (and lower class) white people as irredeemable bigots, and will not let go.
They are the white knights of virtue.
I see a bad moon on the rise.
Trooper York said...We have to cut the guy a break. He is entitled to think and say whatever he wants.
Depends on what kind of entitlement you're alluding to. Surely not epistemic entitlement. We aren't entitled in that sense to think that the earth is flat. Unsupported assertions don't get a break merely because the speaker is a victim of violence.
Please don't report to me what victims said about who's to blame or what other philosophical or psychological or social conclusions they are drawing from their trauma. I don't particularly care if they're ranting or the most insightful people on earth. Maybe if you tell me that they said something that changed your life or even left a deep "Wow" in your consciousness it would be of interest.
But otherwise, I just want to know if they're okay.
If you don't really like their politics, overlook them for once, or if they are in your face blame the people who put that on your plate.
Dude, Beck and Palin and those types don't know you. They never thought about you. You are just not that important.
Sorry you got shot though.
Trey - whom they never think about either
>>Sarah Palin = the left's designated Emmanuel Goldstein.
Couldn't be more true if Eric Blair had written it himself.
"How many other demented people are out there? It looks like Palin, Beck, Sharron Angle and the rest got their first target."
Damn, that Sarah Palin's a great shot! How many yards was that?
Incredible.
Yes, Emmanuel Goldstein.
Palin is the class enemy. The enemy of the People.
"Sounds very much like PTSD. I wouldn't hold him responsible for being a bit crazy at such a moment. Ask him in five years."
And morphine. PTSD and morphine.
I hope he heals quickly. I don't imagine the feeling of being unsafe in the world ever really goes away after something like that.
Notice the segue from the "Democracy Now" telephone interview (@17:52)...
"when we come back, Professor Francis Fox Piven."
lucid said...
Sounds very much like PTSD.
No it doesn't. Sounds like leftard coaching to me. I guess getting shot, as unfortunate as that was, made him stupid.
Peano,
We aren't entitled in that sense to think that the earth is flat.
What chu talkin' 'bout, Willis?
Why you bite on that Crack Emcee? There's so many other crazy libtards and Rethuglicans to argue with, why you gotta bite on a story about somebody sticking a microphone in the face of someone who's just been assaulted?
You can recognize when you're being manipulated, can't you?
There's so many other crazy libtards and Rethuglicans to argue with, why you gotta bite on a story about somebody sticking a microphone in the face of someone who's just been assaulted?
Battered. Growing up (best friend's dad was a Cook County Sheriff in Chicago), I was always under the impression that if I pointed my finger at you it was assault, but if I used to it to poke you in the chest, it was battery.
Damn, that Sarah Palin's a great shot! How many yards was that?
Same rifle she used to off JFK, too, back in '63. Total pro, that gal!
Shame he was shot.
Being a fucking moron isn't a capital offense.
agree with Trooper and Galbraith here.
And of course, it IS Democracy, NOW!
"subscribed to by John Boehner"
The guy was shot, someone he admired was the main target, he can say what he wants. It is his pain talking.
However, I find it odd that he blames John Boehner too.
Picking on Sharron Angle for being enough of a political outsider to think that she could express an ordinary sort of opinion about the relationship of a free and armed people to their government without getting spun and smeared by the opposition is... rich. She didn't say anything unusual or shocking or in any way imply that armed revolt was desirable.
But that's what she was talking about, a general revolt if democracy fails. But not even if the Republicans had done poorly last election, could what she said be twisted into some sort of call to arms. And the Republicans did NOT do poorly last election, which EVEN IF someone were to accept the notion that any sort of 2nd Amendment activism (armed revolt) were being promoted, means that there simply wasn't a need since the Republicans won and now have the house. EVEN IF someone were to accept the ridiculous premise that it was an either/or sort of suggestion.
And I'll retain the excuse of morphine here, but truly, what is "senseless hatred" but attempting to portray as "mainstream" as well as purposeful "vengeance for all", the murder of little girls?
Look at what he wrote (yes... morphine) and see... this is "subscribed to" by Boehner... it is "mainstream".
Someone ought to ask... believing this... what sort of violence might Eric Fuller deem appropriate in response?
Crack said...
Damn, that Sarah Palin's a great shot! How many yards was that?
Not as impressive as her shot from the grassy knoll, especially since that one was taken in utero.
wv = sycowar
Does anybody remember what the left said when conservatives pushed the Jeremiah Wright "Dam America" video in connection to a parishioner of his, who sat and heard the anti-American vitriol for 20 years, and was now running for president of that same "Dammed America"?
It seems to me that if words have that kind of power, the words told to a future president should have been more closely examined and disseminated... and maybe now that we know better they should be brought back in the upcoming 2012 election.
Okay, kent beat me to it, but only because I had to stop and compare birth date to assasination date.
"However, I find it odd that he blames John Boehner too."
He was shot, that doesn't mean he can't read cue cards.
Not as impressive as her shot from the grassy knoll, especially since that one was taken in utero.
That's no big deal. DARPA's been working on that for a long, long time. What they didn't tell Putin was that some 'roguish" CIA operative got Anna Chapman preggers before they swapped her back. They're just waiting for the ides of March.
the greatest trick Oswald ever played was when he community organized the left into thinking he didn't exist.
He was shot, that doesn't mean he can't read cue cards.
Thread winner.
It is very interesting watching the left fantasize a series of injuries to justify their forthcoming revenge.
What is the forthcoming revenge?
I'm beginning to lose interest in the fantasized injuries.
Time to look forward to the planned revenge.
What is it?
I'm a disabled veteran. I suffered a gunshot wound. I don't know what Mr. Fuller's disability entails, but he's an embarassment. Boehner and Palin didn't shoot you, you fucking idiot.
So, the Democrats are holding steady.
They are the victims of a criminal assault committed by Palin, the Tea Party, etc.
This demands a punishment. It demands revenge.
What is the punishment? What is the revenge?
It is very interesting watching the left fantasize a series of injuries to justify their forthcoming revenge.
What is the forthcoming revenge?
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
"But that's what she was talking about, a general revolt if democracy fails"
Yes. Because democracy has been so vulnerable in the United States, so prone to failure. I mean - WTF? "if democracy fails"? This country is SO far from failure of democracy that talking about what to do if it fails is pure demagoguery and hyperbole.
I know what failure of democracy looks like. And this ain't it.
I'm impressed that juiced up on adrenaline he can still write the Declaration of Independence from memory!
Someone who goes through an extreme event -- shooting sure qualifies -- is going through hell processing it. In extreme events, your personality attributes are magnified all out of range. I think he deserves a pass.
Given what he's been through, I'd give him a pass.
I don't give the media a pass for constantly repeating it.
...senseless hatred...subscribed to by John Boehner...
John Boehner is a pussycat. Did anyone of our so-called responsible journalists in the so-called responsible Main Stream Media call this kook on that statement? No. Case closed. Not only on the Left but on its front organizations: NBCABCCBSCNNNYTIMESWASHPOSTetcetc.
How soon before we learn he is perhaps not a veteran and is perhaps not disabled?
I bet the MSM already has 10-20 reporters digging into his real background [what - oh he's a liberal? then forget what I said].
I am going to guess a correction will not be coming from Krugman.
The wisdom of using martial metaphors in political rhetoric has of course been a subject of hot debate over the past week. But one need not take up either side of that debate to see that Mr. Krugman misrepresented Ms. Bachmann's actual statement. Whether or not politicians should use such metaphors is irrelevant. Mr. Krugman clearly implied that Ms. Bachmann wanted her constituents to literally bear arms in a political context. The full quote belies that implication.
Either Mr. Krugman did not make even the slightest effort to seek out the full quote and therefore was unaware that he was distorting Ms. Bachmann's statement, or he deliberately distorted it in an attempt to bolster his case that violent rhetoric is "coming, overwhelmingly, from the right." In either case, Mr. Krugman got it wrong and should correct the record.
Paul Krugman? Lying? Time to break out the award again...
I'd bet he would be saying this whether he was shot or just an observer like the rest of us.
It is unsettling when you think about how many demented people are out there. I still remember when there were heinous murders going on at the University of Florida, the authorities announced how many people in the area they had knew about who might be capable of such a thing.
However.
I know any good liberal would see the utter ridiculousness of blaming a movie had Jared's influences been popular culture.
(And you know, he did like Loose Change.) It is just as pointless to blame a politician.
Sounds like he failed at organizing this thoughts. I'm sorry the guy got shot but he's an ample demonstation of either the aggressive ignorance, plain ole ignorance, or blatant opportunism of the left.
he and Loughner have an awful lot in common, cognitively speaking.
At least in terms of being able to discern reality.
"How many other demented people are out there? It looks like Palin, Beck, Sharron Angle and the rest got their first target."
Excuse me, but they got their targets on election day. 63 or so House seats. And six Senate seats. After that, the race was over and they moved on. If you haven't moved on, that's your problem.
As to how many demented people are out there, estimates say approximately 2.4 million schizophrenics in the United States. Don't know how many of those are paranoid schizophrenics.
Given his recent experience, I'll assume the best of him and give him the benefit of the doubt. Get well soon.
People who were not shot but try to use his words to further their political agenda get no such benefit.
How many other demented people are out there
I'd say there is at least one more than Mr. Fuller thinks there is.
This guy will teach Palin and her Tea Party a lesson. No Burning Of The Reichstag is going to be allowed , and no burning of Rome either. How dare they!
The guy got shot. What he's saying is outrageously stupid, but I'm giving him a pass. I agree with lucid.
"But that's what she was talking about, a general revolt if democracy fails"
"Yes. Because democracy has been so vulnerable in the United States, so prone to failure. I mean - WTF? "if democracy fails"? This country is SO far from failure of democracy that talking about what to do if it fails is pure demagoguery and hyperbole.
I know what failure of democracy looks like. And this ain't it."
That's sort of the point. I mean, yes, exactly what you said.
OTOH, I defy anyone to find a place in History where slaves were allowed weapons. More often and in diverse cultures over untold centuries a personal weapon was the symbol of a person's status as a full citizen and free man. The right not to be disarmed by your government is the assurance that one's status as a full citizen and free man remains intact.
And more practically, expecting to arm one's self *after* democracy fails is lunatic.
Dadvocate wrote:
he and Loughner have an awful lot in common, cognitively speaking.
At least in terms of being able to discern reality.
Some democrat suggested that the NRA is the Assassin's lobby. We know that Giffords is actually a blue dog dem, as opposed to a lib dem. And is a member of the NRA. So she is part of that assassin's lobby. Isn't she then part of the problem that got her shot? Maybe the dems should lump her in with the republicans that love their guns and speak in violent tones.
But we do get a whole lot of *rhetoric* about democracy failing, don't we? It sort of came to a head in 2000 when Gore decided that winning was more important than popular confidence in the process of voting and elections. And the cries of "stolen elections" haven't ceased to this day. The notion that our government is not *legitimate* is promoted vigorously by people who don't seem to have any notion at all that public confidence in the PROCESS is every bit as important as who occupies an office.
Ignorance is Bliss said...
Crack said...
Damn, that Sarah Palin's a great shot! How many yards was that?
Not as impressive as her shot from the grassy knoll, especially since that one was taken in utero.
wv = sycowar
Her mother was there. I saw it on the Zapruder film on frame eleventy11@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who knows what news people have been giving him in the hospital. He may not even yet know that Loughner was just a nut.
" So she is part of that assassin's lobby. Isn't she then part of the problem that got her shot? Maybe the dems should lump her in with the republicans that love their guns and speak in violent tones."
As I said the other day, if one had to come up with a rationale, beyond a psychotic with a fixation acting out on the voices in his head, it's a much more plausible explanation that she was shot as a traitor to the leftist cause rather than as an opponent of the right. If someone wanted to shoot a Democrat as a political lesson, there were much better targets out there.
Freeman Hunt said...
The guy got shot. What he's saying is outrageously stupid, but I'm giving him a pass. I agree with lucid.
I'm not. Like him and Dupnik, they both opened there mouths and showed the world how utterly stupid they are. Why should I let that pass?
"Why should I let that pass?"
So you're saying your not willing to grant him the "absolute moral authority" that Maureen Dowd wanted to bestow on Cindy Sheehan?
Sometimes people who are hurt and damaged say silly things.
I mean just the other day Garage Mahel said that Green Bay was gonna win the Super Bowl.
You have to show the poor guys some compassion.
The left/MSM keeps digging holes for Obama to fill. They don't seem to get that they are hurting him more than Palin, et al.
Giffords is a Dem, so of course some of those meeting with her would be Dems and some would be more politicized than others.
I agree with Trooper, give the guy a pass, only the moonbats hear the MSM wolf howling.
He's obviously smart enough to see (or has been told by someone in the MSM/DNC) which side his book deal is buttered on.
wv: cogitat. "Why, that's an very thoughtful tattoo you have!"
The "report" has a mild flare of a Witch Hunt hysteria..
If Palin, Beck, Sharon Angle and the rest were not of the devil, none of this would have happened.
They will take him and use him up and when they are finished they will toss him away like a freshly aborted fetus.
Ewwww.
What concerns me is that there are in fact a lot of demented people out there, and with all this hate and the libelous accusations aimed at Palin & Co. it wouldn't surprise me if the next nut went after a conservative icon as some kind of revenge.
If that were to happen do you think the left would rethink their three year campaign of lies, malice, and open threats against the former Governor of Alaska?
Ya, right. They'd say she had it coming.
John Boehner? Really? What's he gonna do, cry on you?
Why should I let that pass?
Because he might be traumatized and/or might not have been receiving complete information in the hospital. Say he'd only seen the NYT...
Trooper York said...
Sometimes people who are hurt and damaged say silly things.
I mean just the other day Garage Mahel said that Green Bay was gonna win the Super Bowl.
You have to show the poor guys some compassion.
For being stupid or for being wrong? And why should anyone tolerate either? If I'm guilty of that then I should expect the same intolerance without reservation. I understand he was hurt/shot, but his statements smack of the coherency in the leftard echo chamber that has been vocal from the outset of this shooting.
Freeman Hunt said...
Say he'd only seen the NYT...
'nuff said. Justified.
What a Dupnik!
It doesn't say what kind of "disabled veteran" he is but I'm guessing something involving a metal plate in his head.
Bob from Ohio wrote:
"However, I find it odd that he blames John Boehner too."
I don't.
Generally speaking, Conservatives believe that Liberals are misguided while Liberals believe that Conservatives are evil.
It is a prejudice. I am surprised we have not seen lynch mobs..yet.
"Generally speaking, Conservatives believe that Liberals are misguided while Liberals believe that Conservatives are evil."
And tanned.
That's why they blamed Snookie too!
I mean just the other day Garage Mahel said that Green Bay was gonna win the Super Bowl.
It's named the Lombardi Trophy. Just saying.
Yes Vince Lombardi had two things named after him.
The Super Bowl Trophy and a rest stop on the Jersey Turnpike.
Guess which one the Packers have a better chance of seeing.
I mean peeing.
You know what I mean.
"That's why they blamed Snookie too!"
Right. The Orange Peril!
Maybe Obama can call him and talk him down.
That would extend Mr. Fuller's 15 minutes of fame to nearly an hour.
"Generally speaking, Conservatives believe that Liberals are misguided while Liberals believe that Conservatives are evil."
Really? I see a motorbike helmet with the slogan "Die Oh - Bama" a few months ago - in placer county, california just outside the town of Auburn. Is that misguided? or evil? We report, you decide.
My wife and I wondered whether it constituted a death threat and whether we should report it. But we figured - its a motorbike helmet. Thousands of people (including cops) must have seen it already. And a slogan isn't exactly a threat (or so I imagine).
I think we tend see our side as the angels and the other side as evil regardless of whether you are conservative or liberal.
Some of the comments I have seen on here by people like Florida, methadras, shoutingthomas, NewHam etc...don't seem to be a gentle admonition of misguidedness, but a strident condemnation of "liberal evil".
Of course, a bunch of you will probably say "they aren't real conservatives, they are mobys" - but..who's to tell? For every 10 Synovas, there is one Florida. For every 10 Seven Machos, there is a New Ham. For every 10 Trooper Yorks, there is a methadras.
So no - no one side really has the moral high ground. You might be right or wrong when it comes to economic policy or social policy or whatever. But being right doesn't automatically translate to a moral high ground and being wrong doesn't translate to evil.
Well hey, Troop, Tom Coughlin's got 2 things named for him too... or, actually... not.
Unless you count "turn your head and Coughlin"...then maybe there's one.
But glad the Giants can watch this weekend's games from the comfort of their own sofas.
Guess which one the Packers have a better chance of seeing.
Seeing as they took of NJG, er, I mean NYG, there wouldn't be any need to go to NJ for anything.
Vegas has the Birds by 1. The smallest point spread of any game this weekend. I think they're finally waking up.
"For every 10 Trooper Yorks, there is a methadras."
Actually I weigh as much as 10 methadras if we are gonna get technical.
ST;
So, the Democrats are holding steady.
Not sure I'd equate Democracy NOW! with "the Democrats".
and, you know, more power to them if they want to condemn "liberal evil".
Just don't make laughable comparisons which involve reading minds of entire groups of people - all of whom you couldn't possibly know.
I can see giving him a pass because he was shot and traumatized. Who shot Dupnik, Krugman, et al.?
And I've noticed nobody on the right seems to be trying to make political hay out of the assassination of a Federal judge appointed by G.H.W. Bush (you know, one of the people who are actually dead as a result of this). What's that you say? There's no evidence the judge was the target but there is evidence Giffords was? Since when have Krugman and his despicable ilk cared about evidence?
Well the last time I checked Tom had won the Super Bowl and the Green Bay Coach (what's his name Dan Devine) had won exactly none.
Don't take your cue from the dog ass Jets. Win something first. Talk is cheap.
Ankur -
Assuming he wasn't actually planning on killing Obama, or actually advocating anyone else do the same, it's misguided. Same as "snipers wanted" and the lauding of the shoe-thrower. It's crass and callous, but I don't consider it "evil" to hope for somebody to die. "Evil" would be actually making it happen.
But being right doesn't automatically translate to a moral high ground and being wrong doesn't translate to evil.
Of course nobody here said that. They said something different, which was that liberals believe nearly all conservatives are evil. Not that all liberals are evil, nor that no conservatives actually are evil. You are thrashing strawmen.
Good point - I did make a logical jump there. My apologies.
Having said that, I still think its a rather ignorant assumption to state that liberals believe conservatives are evil and conservatives believe liberals are "misguided".
The paranoia is stifling. On both sides.
I am socially liberal, for the most part. Do I think you guys are evil? heck no. If I didn't, I wouldn't be spending time here expressing my views. In fact, I like quite a lot of you, despite shaking my head or laughing at some of the things that are said here.
I meant to say "if I did..." etc etc
@Ankur:
Just for your general fund of knowledge, Florida and NewHam are moby sock-puppets. That means they are really libs who pretend to be outrageous conservatives and say asshole things to smear all other cons.
While I am sure there are Cons who do this too ("Blighter" on McArdle's blog comes to mind, though he's more a parody), they are not as prevalent because Krugman, Brock, Klein and Kos have already cornered the market on being asshole lefties. Anything more is just gilding the lily, so to speak, though I have often thought that DTL is a moby - I mean, could anyone genuinely be that ignorant and offensive at the same time?
Trooper York @ 1:27 barked something meaningful for a change. Whether one agrees with Fuller's politics or not, he's reporting from the front lines, and took a 9mm slug. He barely escaped being another JaredBurger.
Had the NRA zealots not succeeded in returning the expanded mags to semi-auto boutiques of AZ, at least a few lives would have been spared--perhaps all (then, Loughner should never been able to buy the gat in the first place--and the gun shop owner should be held liable).
J: Amigo!! My worst nightmare appears! Ah, the expanded magazine explanation, so useful in these situations. Shooter and victim were both Jews you know, Mr. Antisemitic dude.
Speaking of weaponry - are there any mechanisms in place to prevent insane people from buying weapons?
The thought of a crazy guy with a gun scares me. But, on the flipside, one could drive a 747 through the 2nd amendment by playing with the definition of 'crazy'. So it seems to be a difficult problem to solve.
Ideas?
Ankur,
Please note that I didn't say that Liberals are misguided or that Conservatives are evil. What I was getting at was that, across the partisan gulf, Liberals tend to ascribe malicious motives to Conservatives, and Conservatives tend to imagine that Liberals are misguided.
I was deliberately making a generalization to explain why I wasn't surprised that a Liberal would blame Rep. Boehner for this crime.
J said...
Had the NRA zealots not succeeded in returning the expanded mags to semi-auto boutiques of AZ, at least a few lives would have been spared
That's just disingenuous bullshit. He would have acquired another illegal firearm and used it when he ran out of ammo from his shortened clip or he would have modified it to contain more or taped clips together. You leftards swim in crap.
Youngblood, I beg to disagree. I can't resist this: but, as a liberal, I believe that that particular statement from you was misguided. And, amazingly enough, I don't think you (or most conservatives on this site) are evil.
J - Have you ever fired an automatic pistol? Changing clips takes about 3 seconds, not enough time to take down a gunman. Don't be an idiot, boy.
Incidentally, the reason he was able to be tackled is because his clip jammed, which happens to be a known problem with expanded clips. So it's quite possible he would have been able to kill more using standard clips.
"He would have acquired another illegal firearm" - the use of "another" leads me to ask: Are glocks illegal in arizona? more importantly, was this guys glock obtained illegally? I haven't been following the news cycle TOO closely.
Ah, the expanded magazine explanation, so useful in these situations.
Relevant, Mikhey, though, granted, a shyster (izzn't that you?) would probably not take the case.
Not particularly anti-semitic, M. The shooting of Miss Giffords and all of them--even the Fed judge-- was a tragedy. And the NRA lobby and rabidly anti-gun control politicians (like Sharie 6-gun Angle) should be considered culpable to some degree.
So, maguro, if an automatic pistol is as good, if not better than a semi-automatic - speaking from a market segment perspective, what is the economic/market niche that glocks fill?
Again, I am someone who doesn't know much about firearms. But I am a (mostly liberal) supporter of the second amendment.
You leftards swim in crap.
Isn't that your...mama?
I love the smell of irritated sodbusters in the PM. Anyway, Meth. I'm not a leftist per se. Not even a Demo. In fact own a gat. Now step into the streets somewhere, like 818, and ahll show it to ya, ese.
You know who should really be breathing a sigh of relief over these events?
Ted Williams, the golden radio voice guy. This tragedy has knocked him right off of the Main Stream Media circus. They were ready to focus on this poor guy, wring him dry, trot him out like a trained pony in a really bad dog and pony show.
Once the media had wrung all the pathos out of his story, they would have dropped him like dirty sock and moved on to the next human plaything that they can toy with for ratings.
The events in Arizona may well have saved Mr Williams months of hype and scrutiny which I don't think is was or is mentally able to handle.
Perhaps now, he can try to get on with his life without the manipulation and cruelty of the media.
Palin can take it, obviously. Mr. Williams probably can't.
Of course the latest toys for the Media to torment are the families of the dead and the wounded survivors in Arizona.
The freaking circus just never ends!!
wait..I should have said "if an automatic pistol is as good, if not better, than the glock, what market niche do glocks fill?".
M @ 5: 46.
step in the street, sodbuster. Capichay?
Expanded mags were definitely a causal factor. And there are a few semi-rational conservatives who agree with that (alas, that counts out Ann Nuthouse.com)
I think I am demonstrating my ignorance regarding firearms again.
Sorry.
Rephrase of the question: Maguro, if standard clips are better than expanded clips, why are expanded clips on the market at all? Why would people buy them? the invisible hand would indicate otherwise.
Heh heh
The Smurfs of A-house be restless!
Somebody has seen "Machete" one too many times. Just sayn'
Rephrase of the question: Maguro, if standard clips are better than expanded clips, why are expanded clips on the market at all? Why would people buy them? the invisible hand would indicate otherwise.
Well, some people are idiots and prefer inferior products for whatever reason. Marketing 101.
The military doesn't issue expanded 9mm clips, they just teach you to pop a new clip in quickly. It's easy.
"I think we tend see our side as the angels and the other side as evil regardless of whether you are conservative or liberal."
I don't think so. If you had said right and wrong, I would agree with you. But I think liberals, as a group but not necessarily every individual, exude a whiff of condescenion and moral vanity that translates into the "we're enlightened and you're evil" vibe. Conservatives, on the other hand, know there's no right answer to everything, but some answers are better than others and reflect real life experience better. That's why they think liberals are misguided. Of many possible solutions to a situation, they think liberals tend to pick stupid ones because they look at the world through rose-colored glasses and are victims of wishful thinking. Liberals, on the other hand, know they're right and therefore can't understand why anyone would object to what they want to do - unless, of course, they're evil.
Why doesn't the media and the Left have any thing to say about this interview?
Father Of 9 Year Old Murder Victim In Tucson Does Not Want Restrictions Of Freedoms
Ankur,
Some people think that high-capacity magazines look cool. Others like the idea of having a lot of ammunition in the magazine. Others have been misled by hype and controversy and believe that high-capacity magazines make them more dangerous or badass.
Kcom,
You pretty much hit the nail right on the head.
Well the Pack has won one more playoff game than the Giants this year, Trooper! (And one more than I thought they would this season!)
J said...
You leftards swim in crap.
Isn't that your...mama?
I love the smell of irritated sodbusters in the PM. Anyway, Meth. I'm not a leftist per se. Not even a Demo. In fact own a gat. Now step into the streets somewhere, like 818, and ahll show it to ya, ese.
The only thing you love to smell is the tracks you leave in your pants every night, Nancy. A non per se leftard is a leftard. OMG 818, so scary. I'm sure the other ak47 hustlers in 213 and the uppity Sig Sauer pimps in 714 shake in their jimmy choo's wherever you tread. Step off dunkle, you don't have what it takes.
Yeah, give me a break - "own a gat"? What the fuck, is this 1960?
Hipster douchebag moron.
On the "conservatives think liberals are misguided (or wrong) and liberals think conservatives are evil (or haters)" thing... I think that I might be willing to concede that liberals don't actually predominantly believe that conservatives are evil.
They just say they are.
Do liberals really think that conservatives are all racists? Probably not. But it hasn't stopped anyone that I've noticed from proclaiming that opposition to Obama stems from race, that the Tea Parties are motivated by racism, etc.
Do liberals, or at least the blogger sorts and Chris Matthews, as well as all those moaning over the violent rhetoric and calling for us to moderate our speech, and Eric Fuller besides, actually believe what they say when they talk about "senseless hatred"? Probably not. But they say it anyway.
Do liberals, or most of them, actually believe that when Obama says "they bring a knife, you bring a gun" or "punish your enemies" or "punch back twice as hard" he's using reasonable metaphors and when Palin says, "reload" it's not a metaphor at all but an expression of violence and hatred? I doubt it. I think they know they're lying.
And how!
Reynolds linked through to Legal Insurrection who linked and quoted Andrew Cohen's Atlantic piece complaining of Palin using "blood libel" and had this to say...
"Sarah Palin may or may not be the victim of unwarranted criticism in the wake of Jared Lee Loughner's shooting spree in Tucson last Saturday. As far as I'm concerned, that is a non-justiciable "political question"--
This person isn't even willing to say that it's an error of *fact* to blame Sarah Palin for Loughner's actions. It's just too useful to portray the opposition as a force of evil.
So, in the end we sort of have a conundrum.
Do we go by what liberal commentators undoubtedly believe, or by what they actually say?
It's hard to dispute "liberals think that conservatives are evil" without resorting to mind reading.
What Fuller wrote might well be attributed to morphine and lingering terror, but it's not as though what he wrote is unique in this world in ascribing to conservatives "senseless hatred" with all apparent sincerity.
How many other demented people are out there?
Well, I have an existence proof that there is at least one, named Eric Fuller.
No, I'm not giving him a pass because something traumatic happened to him. Lots of people have bad things happen to them without irrationally blaming people who aren't involved.
Things I have learned today from this thread (I paraphrase..)
1) From sofaking: Wishing death on the president of the united states is not evil, merely "misguided".
2) From kcom: Statistically, you are more likely to be condescending and sure you are right if you are liberal, but more nuanced and open to other ideas if you are conservative. So I have to ask...are you sure?
3) Youngblood has the amazing ability to read minds of large groups of diverse people and knows what they believe about each other.
4) From holdfast: No conservative who is too extreme is conservative. They are trollish mobys. Just like no real scotsman, etc etc etc.
5) From maguro: Some gun owners like to buy expanded magazines even though they are inferior products compared to standard magazines. I presume that I should count them among "rational" gun owners.
Ankur - Chrysler sold close to 1 million cars last year despite the fact that their cars are clearly inferior. What can I say? The consumer doesn't always make an optimal decision.
Ankur,
There's a difference between reading minds and observing what people say and do. You might want to consider the distinction there.
I mean, Beta was superior to VHS, too. Doesn't mean VHS should have been outlawed.
"Chrysler sold close to 1 million cars last year despite the fact that their cars are clearly inferior. What can I say? The consumer doesn't always make an optimal decision."
But it should always be their choice. That's the way markets work and work best. There's wisdom in crowds, more so than in small, self-selected groups of government eggheads.
As to inferiority, it depends on the basis your judging on. Different people value different things and what's right for one isn't necessarily right for the other, so inferiority is relative. The computer I'm typing on has no built-in CD drive and a smallish battery that is installed internally. It's got only two USB ports. (Computer geeks, can you guess the model?) Is it inferior? Or is it a trade-off I made to get a computer that's .75 inches thick and weighs only a couple of pounds. It's working for me because it does what I need but someone else with different requirements might consider it inferior.
That's also why many on the Right object to "government healthcare" and big government in general. We think people themselves are the best judge of what's most important to them and what trade-offs they find worthwhile in arranging their lives. A group of bureaucrats in Washington might think they are the smartest people in the room (or the country) but they're clueless in knowing what's important to individual people and what trade-offs make sense in their individual situations. And it's also why the whole "What's the matter with Kansas?" conceit is a perfect illustration of my point that Ankur includes as number 2) in his list.
"Statistically, you are more likely to be condescending and sure you are right if you are liberal,..."
What's a better illustration of the condescending liberal mindset than a guy who gets praised for writing a book that asks the question - How can those people in Kansas be so stupid as to not know what they should want? Especially when we're here to tell them. No, that's epically condescending.
Of course, that should have been "No, that's not epically condescending." Which, of course, was sarcasm.
J: Jew hater, quick question. How many more bullets in the extended magazine? Dude, it's nightmare guys like you that go off the deep end, so I hope you aren't fucking around with your meds.
J typed "Anyway, Meth. I'm not a leftist per se. Not even a Demo. In fact own a gat. Now step into the streets somewhere, like 818, and ahll show it to ya, ese."
YOU own a gat? You looking to show your gat in the streets somewhere? Dude, hipster man, fixie riding antisemite. Personal question: do you have, like, a tattoo? Something really cool, maybe asian, maybe in a language you yourself don't know? Snap a pic of the gat and the tatt and hop over to Walgreens to develop.
As a hardcore gamer, I will use an analogy I know:
Lifetime to date, the Wii has vastly outsold the XBox 360 and PS3 (both in the US alone and worldwide).
By no rational measure is the Wii a more powerful gaming platform nor does it have as solid a library (most of its games are actually really, really bad and ones nobody has heard of)
Being the best doesn't mean you will come out on top. Heck, as a gamer, there has only been one console generation where the strongest piece of hardware actually was the best seller (Playstation 1 over the Saturn).
The weaker hardware almost always wins out.
People don't always want the best.
garage's hero had this to say today on the matter:
Pat Buchanan Tells Chris Matthews: "You Guys [Linking Palin to Loughner] Are The Birthers of the Left"
Legal Insurrection: "Being a crime victim is not a license to make up facts, and does not immunize you from criticism when you do."
One more, from the Too Good Not To Share file:
Pat Caddell: I can’t help thinking Paul Krugman’s a bit of a sphincter
[NOTE: "sphincter" not the word actually used, here.] ;)
Given his recent experience, I'll assume the best of him and give him the benefit of the doubt. Get well soon.
People who were not shot but try to use his words to further their political agenda get no such benefit.
Thank you.
Maybe it's the painkillers and a desire to out dope Sheriff Dope-nik.
Of all the "inferior winning over superior" analogies that you guys have thrown out, only one comes close to the larger versus standard clip situation - and that is the chrysler example from Maguro.
Why? because, unless you consider smacking someone upside the head with an xbox or a computer, only a car could potentially be used as a weapon.
The understandable and common market-irrationality of someone choosing VHS over the superior Beta Max isn't giving that irrational person the power to kill/injure.
I do understand and accept completely the point you all are making about choice. And again, I want to reiterate that I am a supporter of the second amendment.
But the point I am making is subtly different. Here it is:
IF we are stating that expanded clips are inferior to standard clips, THEN the people who are buying the expanded clips are indulging in classic market irrationality. THEREFORE, it scares me that these irrational people are gun owners.
Of course, market irrationality doesn't necessarily indicate general irrationality, but one might argue that the two could be correlated.
As youngblood mentioned above, some people like the look of expanded magazines. Some people think it makes them badass. I think gun ownership ought to be a little more serious than what looks good, or what makes you badass.
And, from what I have heard from the gun owners among you, you all seem to be serious, trained gun owners who give guns the respect they deserve. None of you seem to be the type to buy guns for frivolous reasons.
So - again - I understand and respect and accept the market choice argument. But do YOU feel safe with people who buy guns for essentially the same reasons as college students buy macs/ipads (when they would be much better served by a cheaper windows/linux machine*)?
And don't you realize that people buying guns for the way they look or for how badass they are makes EVERYONE look bad? I can't imagine serious gun owners would like to be lumped together with frivolous gun-hipsters.
* doesn't apply to those who use macs for studio work, obviously.
You guys are too nice.
The guy is formenting more hatred based off of known lies. It feeds the Left's need to create fiction to justify their violence.
I don't care if he got shot or just escaped from an Auschwitz death camps. He doesn't get a pass on this.
Ankur: Some gun owners like to buy expanded magazines even though they are inferior products compared to standard magazines.
So what? I buy "inferior" products all the time because there is a trade off somewhere that makes it a more rational a move.
This is not a Nanny State, its not your place to judge what kind of clips I need for home defense.
And, interestingly, Mr. Fuller was arrested tonight for issuing death threats during an ABC sponsored town hall meeting. He has been taken in for a mental evaluation .
Why, yes, I do find it a bit ironic that Mr "Incivility caused this" made death threats against people.
"If they'd met over a beer, they'd be the best of friends, trading word salad until they slid under the table together."
No, they'd be tossing salad until they slid under the table together.
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