Althouse: "We're going to stop buying everything from toilet paper to printer paper."

२३ जुलै, २०१०

"We're going to stop buying everything from toilet paper to printer paper."

"He wants to balance the budget on workers' backsides... Maybe [Newark Mayor Cory] Booker is gonna make people carry those little packets of tissue."

३९ टिप्पण्या:

अनामित म्हणाले...: He needs to hire Sheryl Crow as a TP consultant. Fly her in for a few days and brainstorm about wiping options.

Most of the 'stimulus' money did not go to 'shovel-ready jobs' but to plug the huge gaps in the budgets of state and local governments. The money is just about exhausted and starting next year the states are going to be in horrible fiscal shape.

Don't worry about TP, next year state legislatures will be shitting bricks.; २३/७/१०, ७:१४ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: This is the fault line in the USA.

Gummint workers out-earn the majority of Americans, and have better benefits.

Plus, as Shirley Sherrod pointed out, no one ever gets laid off.
Sweet!

Get on the gravy train, unionize, and bitch and bitch and bitch. Treat citizens like the revenue sources they are.

And to think I've had it wrong all along: I actually work for the gummint, not the reverse.; २३/७/१०, ७:२१ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Newark is shit hole.

Blacks decided to burn down their own city back in 1967. This strategy did not work any better for them than it did for blacks in Detroit.

Since then, black shakedown artists and gangsters have ruled Newark. Criminal conviction and being mayor of Newark just go together, i.e., Sharp James.

I rode my Harley through the warehouse district along the waterfront once. Security guards carried heavy weapons. In a couple of cases, I saw security guards who had unholstered their pistols and carried them in their hands.

New Jersey is struggling to try to restrain the shakedown artists of the public employees unions. Salaries and benefits for public employees far exceed those of private sector employees. Public employees receive life time tenure while private employees sign up for unemployment.

Even as the state goes bankrupt, public employees refuse to concede. Literally, the declining private sector cannot pay the bill for the luxurious standard of living of the public sector.

The same is true in California.

Predictably, the Obama administration wants to expand the size and scope of federal government while the private sector withers. What else did you expect of a community organizer?; २३/७/१०, ७:२५ AM
Opus One Media म्हणाले...: @Pogo

don't start the day with a mound of bad information and mis-direction for once.

government workers earn comparable salaries with the rest of us.

better benefits? you mean that health insurance you don't want others to have? yes but they pay for it to a degree.

unions are causing this? really? of course you know that state income taxes are pegged a great deal to the federal tax code and when you right wing monkeys did your tax cuts you hurt the states directly.

if you don't like the government (and stop using gummint - it makes you sound like an idiot) go some place where there isn't one.

and @shoutthomas....always the "blacks" causing trouble on the plantation right? did you get your morning fax from Breitbart of something?; २३/७/१०, ७:३६ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: And, Ann, I've tried to broach this subject a few times, but you never respond.

You make a big salary and you've got tenure. Has it ever occurred to you that your enthusiasm for feminism is just over-sized self-interest? You are top dog in the quota system. This is the explanation for your enthusiasm for feminism.

I'm not exempt from this. My girlfriend is a public employee, and she's got a sweet deal, too.

It would be great if we could all get in on that deal, but I doubt that it is possible.

You're one of the winners of the quota sweepstakes. I don't really begrudge that. You know how to play the game, and that's a lot more important even than qualifications (and I'm not suggesting you aren't qualified).

How many people can we afford to support and coddle at the level you enjoy? I'm not calling on you to wear a hair shirt.

I would like to see you develop a little skepticism about the quota system that feeds you. In other words, please shut up about the feminism. You've already got your full share.; २३/७/१०, ७:३७ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: "government workers earn comparable salaries with the rest of us."

If by "comparable you mean "$38K/yr more than", that's true:

Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds

"Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.

These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis."; २३/७/१०, ७:४३ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: and @shoutthomas....always the "blacks" causing trouble on the plantation right? did you get your morning fax from Breitbart of something?

So, HDHouse starts the day with the now openly avowed strategy of liberals: accuse somebody, anybody of racism and hope it sticks.

I didn't talk about a plantation. I spoke specifically about Newark and Detroit, two cities that have been owned by black political machines for decades. Your attempt to label these situations "plantations" is just a shithead ploy. You are a dishonest, underhanded piece of shit. What's new?

My point in noting the reality of the outcome of the riots that burned down Newark and Detroit was that this strategy was remarkably stupid and self-defeating. What that strategy led to in both instances was the institutionalization of gang intimidation and political control in both cities.

These tactics bear the imprimatur of the Democratic Party. I've called you on it, which is what really pisses you off. I gather you endorse the policies that turned Newark and Detroit in nightmarish shitholes? You'd rather see that than actually examine the liberal dogma you believe in?

Do you have anything to say that might be in the realm of reality? How exactly are you such a friend of blacks? You want to see blacks living in shitholes like Newark and Detroit?; २३/७/१०, ७:४३ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: I will assume that they already buy the cheapest most flimsy wretched sandpaperiest TP around. If not, why not?

I agree with LarsP -- state budgets next year will be very interesting. Wisconsin already has to plug a $200M hole because they stole money and the State Supreme Ct found it an illegal raid (Hooray!). The real question is: Why would anyone want to be Governor at this point?

But, helpful person that I am, I have just a few suggestions off the top of my head for Gov. Barrett/Walker/Neumann: (Newman!) Shut down the ECB and transfer the broadcasting license they have to the UW Board of Regents. Disband the DPI -- return control of the Schools to local municipalities. When the furloughs stop, use that money "gained" by State Employees for them to fund more completely their own Health Insurance.; २३/७/१०, ७:४५ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: "better benefits? ...yes but they pay for it to a degree."

And by "to a degree" you must mean that "non-gummint workers fund it entirely", because the amount 'they pay' comes out of my taxes as well as the amount I pay, which is the vast majority.; २३/७/१०, ७:४५ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: "and stop using gummint - it makes you sound like an idiot"

Non-gummint workers are idiots. Like Palladian has said, we're merely a fungible source of government revenue.; २३/७/१०, ७:४७ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: "If you don't like the government ...go some place where there isn't one."

"Pogo, you're just a fungible source of government revenue. Now get to work paying my bennies!"; २३/७/१०, ७:५० AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: if you don't like the government (and stop using gummint - it makes you sound like an idiot) go some place where there isn't one.

I think Pogo, like most conservatives dislike irresponsible government.; २३/७/१०, ७:५९ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: "You're one of the winners of the quota sweepstakes."

Oh, really? I was the valedictorian of my high school class, but never encouraged by any teacher to pursue any sort of an ambitious career (or any career at all). I was the best student in my junior year math class, but when I asked the teacher if I should go on to take calculus, she (yes, she) told me that's really only for people who want to become engineers (not: you could be an engineer). I have many things like that. I didn't go to law school until 5 years after I graduated from college. It took me a long time to figure out that I could have something like that. I am 59 years old. You have no idea the very active discrimination I put up with in my life. Apologize or fuck you.; २३/७/१०, ८:११ AM
The Dude म्हणाले...: hdhaus wrote "and stop using gummint - it makes you sound like an idiot"

He is a perfect example of how to sound like an idiot without using "gummint". Use "faux noise" and "concervative" - those words ensure that one is perceived as the idiot one truly is. Also, neglect grammar and capitalization - lest there be any doubt as to one's idiot-hood.; २३/७/१०, ८:१३ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Apologize or fuck you.

I am also valedictorian of my high school class. My mother and father were both non-union factory workers in a small town in Illinois.

I am the first member of my extended family to graduate from a four-year college.

In my first job out of college, despite my rather spectacular qualifications, I was chosen to be second in command of a new computer institute. First in command was a black woman who was a quota employee. She was, and I do not exaggerate, illiterate. She was completely incapable of doing her job, so much so that I had to do it for her.

I got so fed up with this that I refused to continue doing the job until the administration agreed to pay me more. They did, because I was the only one who knew the plans for finishing the construction of a new building.

This pattern has been repeated at least three times in my life.

Apologize now Ann, or shut the fuck up.

You grew up in far better circumstances than I did, and you've been getting the quota preference your entire life.; २३/७/१०, ८:२३ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: And, professor, you made a rather serious logical error in your reply.

Read my post again. I explicity said that I did not doubt your qualifications.

Try replying to what I actually said.; २३/७/१०, ८:२६ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: Althouse, that crap was still going on when my wife graduated from high school in 1979. Seems like only mid-80s on that things changed. Unfortunately, it's become actively anti-boy in grade schools and college over time, at least anti-white male, hence their dearth on college campuses.

You've got Clarence Thomas Disease.
You got where you are on your own, but the omnipresence of Affirmative Action and quota systems has poisoned the well, so people feel free to assume that one has advanced wholly by favoritism.

It's ugly and wrong, but the only way out is as Chief Justice John Roberts wrote (modiefied) "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of XXX is to stop discriminating on the basis of XXX."; २३/७/१०, ८:३० AM
reader_iam म्हणाले...: Interesting that the story doesn't mention that Cory Booker is a Democrat.

Of course, he's also endorsed some of Chris Christie's fiscal austerity plans.

No doubt neither of those things have any significance to Booker's opponents.; २३/७/१०, ८:३१ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: P.S. to HDHouse:
"Gummint" is a spelling from Walt Kelly's original work on his Pogo comic strip. (example); २३/७/१०, ८:३७ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I am 59 years old. You have no idea the very active discrimination I put up with in my life.

I find this very hard to believe.

I worked in IT for quite a few years for the wealthiest corporate law firm in New York City.

For as long as I can remember (and that extends back to 1976), corporate law firms have been the most vocal quota mongers in the world.

Quotas for female attorneys have been in place in those institutions for decades.

Since I was on the other side of the equation, i.e., staff, my friends tended to be clerical workers who had to put up with the quota queens. You cannot believe how abusive these queens were in relation to their workers.

One female attorney (a black woman) was carried by the firm even after the assaulted a secretary (a gay man who is my friend) and bit (yes bit) another male associate.

I saw the crazy sense of entitlement of the quota queens from the other side of the table. On the service side of the firm, we had to put up with their outrageous sense of entitlement and the despicable chip on their shoulder they brought to the workplace.; २३/७/१०, ८:३७ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: And now, Ann, I will reconcile our starkly different views of the world.

I'm 60... just about your age.

The era of resistance to the demand for equality in the workforce for women was remarkably short, probably less than 5 years, from about 1968 through 1971.

After that, despite the feminist propaganda, men simply conceded defeat.

There was no long-term, pitched battle over equality for women in the workplace. The change was remarkably swift.

"OK," most men decided. "Changing things is probably the right thing to do."

Your career may well have fallen into that short period when thing were undecided. So, your perception may always be that things are as they were in that short period.

Has it ever occurred to you that there might be innocent victims who paid dearly for the success of women? I'm not casting myself as a victim, because I've had plenty of successes in life even in the face of the constant slaps from the quota system.

My generation of white men, mostly from poor families who worked on farms and in the factories, has been cast as the villains as if we actually ever held power and position.

We didn't.

And that's the explanation for why our views are so starkly different.; २३/७/१०, ८:५१ AM
Joe म्हणाले...: "Apologize or F*ck you" is not very nice...and ST so now we're in a P*ssing contest to see who has had it worse/worst in their life?

May I now at this point in your peroration burst in with "LUXURY"!?!?

"Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah."

I might add pretty soon both of you will have walked, barefoot, uphill both ways, to school, and several of your friends were eaten by bears...

ST you have NO idea whether or not Althouse "benefitted" from a "quota system." And insulting the hostess seems a bit gauche, IMO.

"...or F*ck you" seems to be a bit over-wrought and suggests a sore point has been touched.

I might suggest we all take a deep breath here....that's just me...being the wrong colour (white) and sex (male) mayhap I ought to just let you two slug it out with your tales of youthful woe, but it just seems wrong to allow it to happen.; २३/७/१०, ८:५६ AM
Adam म्हणाले...: ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.; २३/७/१०, ९:२८ AM
Adam म्हणाले...: more pearls of idiocy from Highly Dense House:

unions are causing this? really? of course you know that state income taxes are pegged a great deal to the federal tax code and when you right wing monkeys did your tax cuts you hurt the states directly.

Anyone who spent one minute in thought or research would understand that each state sets its own income-tax rates. So despite the fact that they typically base their definitions of taxable income on federal 1040s (with modifications), their overall tax levels are in no way "pegged" to the federal tax code. Changes in federal tax rates have no direct effect on state tax revenues at all.; २३/७/१०, ९:२९ AM
Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...: Well, I'm 60. One year older than Althouse and the same as Shoutingthomas. I work in a distinctly man centric business. However, I didn't always.

I agree with both Ann and Thomas.

There existed discrimination and discouragement against women going into occupations that weren't considered "girly" when we were young. I also was among the top in my class in academics and even though I had taken as many science classes as I could (because I was very very interested), I was discouraged from taking college level classes and also not given ANY career advice and was actively discouraged from taking a career path in science.

This was during the Vietnam era and I also decided to take the testing that was given for pre entry into the military. I forget what it was called. It consisted of basic skills, math, mechanic stuff (identify these tools) and three dimensional puzzles (what does this unfolded item look like if folded up). I scored very high and received many solicitations from the Air Force to enlist as a navigator (as one of the promised jobs). When the determined that I wasn't a guy....forget it.

I eventually gave up on my science ambitions and went into finance and even then was never considered for management or anything more. I was actually given the reason I was passed over for promotion because I wasn't a man.

So there was discrimination and very low glass ceiling for women.

Thomas is also correct in that when 'affirmative' action and diversity became the mantra of the corporate world. Unqualified women and others were promoted and favored over more qualified men.

In fact, when I was already working in the investment advisor industry, the broker/dealer that I was affiliated with made it a point to "give" accounts to minorities and to women over more qualified advisors. Now.....how fair is that to the clients who were sold down the river to incompetent advisors in the name of diversity. How would you like to be one of those victims?

At one national meeting, the women (myself included) were practically trotted out like trained ponies to show that the firm was sensitive and diversified.

Pogo is also correct in that the current educational system has bent itself so far backassward over that now the discrimination and discouragement are towards young men.

None of these things are correct or are right and no one owes anyone any apologies for things that are beyond our own control.

What we DO owe each other is some understanding and empathy.

What we also need to do is quit with this afirmiative action quota system and treat people equally according to their skills.

Unfortunately, this is not going to happen since this entire bullshit quota system has now been built into the latest fiasco financial reform bill by Congress and by Obama .; २३/७/१०, ९:३० AM
Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...: Sorry to be so verbose.

I didn't appreciate the discrimination when I wanted to go into science.

I REALLY resented the flip flop of being treated differently (better) when the tide turned with affirmative action.

I just wanted to be treated the same as everyone else.

When you use affirmative action or quotas to create 'special' classes.....all you really do is to create resentment.

And to bring it back to the argument and the topic.

Unions have been treated as a special class for some time at the expense of the taxpayer. Now those chickens have come home to roost...to quote a famous agitator.....the resentment of the taxpayers is simmering and soon coming to a rapid boil; २३/७/१०, ९:३७ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: I was discouraged when I was young, and I was also affected by the hippie movement and an interest in art. I went to art school. Consequently, I scoffed at the 70s era women's movement, because I was a bohemian, not someone keen on joining the middle class or getting rich. I finally went to law school in 1978 because I had a hunger to do things with words and I wanted to have enough money to be able to have children. Through the whole thing, including up until this moment, I have seen myself as an artist, a bohemian, and out of place in the legal culture. I'm not like those women in the 70s, etc., who caught a wave to success. As far as getting my lawprof job at Wisconsin, I graduated first in my NYU law school class, was a law review editor, wrote 2 articles before I entered teaching, clerked for a federal judge, and worked for Sullivan & Cromwell (a very prestigious Wall Street law firm). I absolutely deserved to be hired, without regard to any kind of gender preference. No question. So get over the stereotypical ideas you made up about me. I'm an individual. Learn the facts.; २३/७/१०, १०:११ AM
MayBee म्हणाले...: Carrying around little packs of tissue is very easy to do. Anybody who has traveled to China or Hong Kong learns to do it pretty quickly.
In Japan, people stand on street corners and pass out tissue packs as a marketing gimmick.

Perhaps an enterprising city worker in Newark can get a jump start on a private business.; २३/७/१०, १०:१२ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Unfortunate metaphor of the day: "It appears the mayor is a Pontius Pilate. In other words, his hands are clean."; २३/७/१०, १०:१६ AM
Adam म्हणाले...: AA said: "I was the valedictorian of my high school class, but never encouraged by any teacher to pursue any sort of an ambitious career (or any career at all)."

I think what you experienced was the difficulty of being in the vanguard of large-scale social change. Your teachers' lack of encouragement was probably based on their expectation that within 5 years you'd be starting a family. You can't really blame them too much for failing to anticipate a sea change in social norms about women's role in society.

One of the important questions of that time, it seems, was whether to wait for private individuals' and firms' beliefs to evolve on their own or to force the process by means of government regulation. We chose the latter path, allegedly as a temporary measure. Now that affirmative action has become a permanent feature of life, we've got a clearer view of the downside of that choice.

I suggest filing the whole thing under "life isn't fair" rather than "I was a victim of discrimination." Either way, both you and ST can take satisfaction from your accomplishments in the face of adversity.; २३/७/१०, १०:१७ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: "I suggest filing the whole thing under "life isn't fair" rather than "I was a victim of discrimination.""

I'm not a filing clerk and I'm not filing anything anywhere. I remember what I remember, which is what happened. It was real, and I'm about being aware and facing the truth. That's not playing the victim, and I object to that characterization. I know what I know, and I own the experiences that were mine. I won't let anyone tell me where to put them.; २३/७/१०, १०:५९ AM
Adam म्हणाले...: "I'm not a filing clerk and I'm not filing anything anywhere."

Fine.

I forget what any of this had to do with toilet paper in Newark.; २३/७/१०, ११:१६ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: HDHouse said...

@Pogo

don't start the day with a mound of bad information and mis-direction for once.

government workers earn comparable salaries with the rest of us.

better benefits? you mean that health insurance you don't want others to have? yes but they pay for it to a degree.

When I worked for the Feds, we were paid comparably less on the grounds that our benefits were better (retire on half pay at 20 years, etc.). Our health was basically an HMO, so it wasn't that great.

If, by that insurance Pogo doesn't want anyone else to have, HD means ZeroCare, I'm willing to bet the government slugs will stand in front of Dr Berwick's death panels, just like the rest of us.

unions are causing this? really? of course you know that state income taxes are pegged a great deal to the federal tax code and when you right wing monkeys did your tax cuts you hurt the states directly.

Yeah, the union slugs are chanting, "Raise our taxes", in Jersey, so they can live fatter of the backs of the taxpayers.

Anybody wonder why people there like Christie?

if you don't like the government (and stop using gummint - it makes you sound like an idiot) go some place where there isn't one.

Isn't that like telling black people to go back to Africa?

Besides, we do have this phrase, When, in the course of human "events", that tells us we don't have to leave, we can change the gummint. A bunch of guys named Washington and Morgan and Greene did that about 230 years ago.

Ann Althouse said...

Apologize or fuck you.

Meade may take you over his knee if you keep saying things like that.

(Which may be the whole idea); २३/७/१०, ११:३८ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Professor, DBQ, ShoutingT,

You three are all a few years older than my parents (yes, that's right). I am 30 years old and just starting a legal career. I don't have quite the qualifications as the ones that you all mentioned, but I was very successful in school, college, and law school. I don't think that I have ever had anyone telling me that I could not/should not/would not accomplish what I set my mind towards.

Two examples: 1) In early 2008, when we all still thought Hillary would be the nominee, I read a story that mentioned little girls wearing pins stating "I could be president"- I thought that was odd, as I remember "planning" a potential presidential run in my childhood, without even considering that my sex would be an issue.
2) My parents are extremely conservative and traditional; however, they have never so much as raised an eyebrow to my plan, which is to be the breadwinner in my family while my husband stays home with the kids.

I don't really have anything to add here, I'm just amazed to reflect on how different a world we live in now.; २३/७/१०, १२:४० PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: If you didn't already know my age, I hope that doesn't make you take me less seriously from now on. I enjoy the discussions here, and it's not something that I can get with many of my peers.

Anyway, I wanted to add that the first time I ever really thought that sexism could be an issue in my life was 2008, when I saw how quickly the left can jump to savage misogyny when people that they think should be in their group dare to speak out against them. It really was scary, and shocking, to think that, if I ever wanted to go into politics (which I don't), I would face such a vulgar obsession with my sexuality.

- Lyssa; २३/७/१०, १२:५१ PM
holdfast म्हणाले...: As a current employee of a not-quite-as-prestigious as S&C NY law firm, I do not think there is significant affirmative action hiring in favor of white, Asian or Indian women, since they are all in generally large and highly qualified supply. There are some issues at the partner level, as females of all skin hues sometimes make partner without the putting in quite the same gruntwork as males, but partner promotion is always opaque so it is hard to judge.

On the other hand firms will fall all over themselves to hire any black candidate they can find, and triple bonus points for women. There is a strong desire/requirement from the firm's leadership, from the larger legal community, and especially from clients for the firm to be "diverse" and that is simply code for "black", since there are tons of qualified gay, Asian, Arab, Indian and female candidates. I also very deliberately say "black" since half of the black attorneys I work with are not African American - they are either from Africa or the Caribbean.

When my practice group needed to reduce headcount in a certain class year they axed the smart, well-liked, hard working white guy with a wife and two kids over the mediocre, somewhat lazy, single black female. Everyone knew it was unfair - even my ultra-liberal female colleagues would openly acknowledge what a crock it was. Still, we had laid of another black female the previous year (for total incompetence and unprofessional behavior) and were down to two, so there really was not choice.; २३/७/१०, १:४६ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: "lyssalovelyredhead said...
If you didn't already know my age, I hope that doesn't make you take me less seriously from now on. I enjoy the discussions here, and it's not something that I can get with many of my peers."

HEY KID!!!!

GET OFF OF MY LAWN!!!!!!!; २३/७/१०, ३:४१ PM
Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...: If you didn't already know my age, I hope that doesn't make you take me less seriously from now on. I enjoy the discussions here, and it's not something that I can get with many of my peers.

I already assumed you were about the age of my daughter. I have no problem discussing and even debating with people who are fair, intellegent and open minded.

It is a very different world now in many ways and in many ways it is just the same. Where you were shocked by the mysoginy and terrible treatment of Hillary, Palin and other women: I was not. To me it was ..."Oh..well...nothing changes much does it?"; २३/७/१०, ७:२८ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Ann, I hope you read this.

The bit about art school finally sunk in.

I've been a professional musician all my life. But, I have to sadly admit, the world of the arts is the crappiest, meanest, dumbest and most backward arena of all that I've been involved in.

One of my pet theories is that artists become consumed with changing the world precisely because the world of the arts is so corrupt and brutal. You can't criticize the world of the arts and be accepted in it. So, in a classic case of projection, artists project onto the "straight" society the negatives of the arts society.

I'm sure you've noticed that people are treated much better in the corporate and academic world than they are treated in the artistic world.

It's the world of the arts that stinks to high heaven. Not a good idea to draw any grand conclusions about the larger society from the cesspool of the arts.; २४/७/१०, ६:४१ AM