Althouse: The Flotilla.

१ जून, २०१०

The Flotilla.

Collected links.

६६ टिप्पण्या:

Palladian म्हणाले...: It's funny, I was listening to Brian Eno when I first read of this flotilla incident, which reminded me that, while Brian Eno is a brilliant artist, he's also a virulent Israel-hater and Palestinian propagandist, as most of the British seem to be. I am usually able to separate the artist's politics from the artist's work (a necessary exercise since many of my fellow artists are complete loon-balls). But at what point is the aesthetic actually a product of the politics (or vice versa).

I don't automatically support everything Israel does, but they have a right to exist and defend themselves, don't they?; १/६/१०, १०:३६ AM
Robert म्हणाले...: Israel really stepped in it this time. Did they finally go too far?; १/६/१०, १०:३६ AM
Moose म्हणाले...: No comments of your own? Going Instapundit on us?; १/६/१०, १०:३८ AM
Moose म्हणाले...: The Israelis failed miserably judging the intent and the potential of the trap Hamas had laid for them. The Arab world is fully willing to sacrifice Gaza in order to manipulate world opinion. The Israelis are bound and determined to assist them in that effort it seems...; १/६/१०, १०:४१ AM
Fred4Pres म्हणाले...: Bill Ayers has links to the Turkish group involved in this blockade running and violence (started by them).

Dan Collins has some links to it. Friends of Barack

And the name of the new ship heading to the blockade? The Rachel Corrie.; १/६/१०, १०:४६ AM
Fred4Pres म्हणाले...: Just some guy from the neighborhood.; १/६/१०, १०:४७ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Any who would view the video showing the array of weapons found on board the lead vessel that was boarded,would not ask if Israel has gone too far.

This incident is exactly what the Palestinians were after. A win-win in their eyes,either the goods get delivered or the Israelis react and the drooling world opinion revs up Ala the despicable Andrew Sullivans of the world.

Melanie Phillips has been spot on here.; १/६/१०, १०:४९ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: but they have a right to exist and defend themselves, don't they?

Don't be ridiculous.; १/६/१०, १०:४९ AM
Robert म्हणाले...: No comments of your own?

She's apparently chosen to tread carefully here. While most of the world are pointing out (correctly) that Israel did something indefensible, stupid, and barbaric (and placed America in a very difficult spot), a lot of her blogosphere allies and her commenters are amongst those who, to borrow from Palladian, automatically support everything Israel does.; १/६/१०, १०:५० AM
Ray म्हणाले...: Israel made to mistakes here, a) not waiting until they were within Israels territorial waters, and b) not sinking the entire flotilla/terrorist blockade runners.

If anyone thinks Israel is out of line here, I humbly suggest an experiment. Try to sail a boat to the US coast after being specifically warned off. When the USCG hails your vessel, tell them to 'go back to Auschwitz'. Attack the boarding party. Is what happens next more/less optimal?; १/६/१०, १०:५२ AM
Paddy O म्हणाले...: "he's also a virulent Israel-hater and Palestinian propagandist, as most of the British seem to be"

It is well known, historical fact that Turkey always has the best interests of Palestinian freedom in mind, and that the Turks have always been friends to the British in this regard.; १/६/१०, १०:५४ AM
Fred4Pres म्हणाले...: If anyone thinks Israel is out of line here, I humbly suggest an experiment. Try to sail a boat to the US coast after being specifically warned off. When the USCG hails your vessel, tell them to 'go back to Auschwitz'. Attack the boarding party. Is what happens next more/less optimal?

Sounds like the start of the boating season!; १/६/१०, १०:५५ AM
lucid म्हणाले...: ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.; १/६/१०, १०:५७ AM
hawkeyedjb म्हणाले...: Stopping weapons shipments is indefensible? Stupid? Barbaric?Does that mean that helping Hamas kill Jews is defensible, smart and civilized?; १/६/१०, ११:०० AM
Hagar म्हणाले...: The IDF screwed up and lost control of the situation.

Analogous to a squad of rookie cops getting overwhelmed by a teenage streetgang.

A minor incident. There will be more as this drags on for a couple more generations.; १/६/१०, ११:०० AM
lucid म्हणाले...: It appears the Israeli military made a major tactical mistake by droppping lightly armed soldiers into what they thought would be a manageable situation, but which was not. For example, they could have used fire hoses or tear gas to clear the deck of protesters before the trops rapelled in. Israel will now pay the consequences for that error.

On the other hand, what do the protesters expect to happen if they use metal pipes to attack and beat men who are carrying guns? Eventually the men with guns are going to protect themselves by shooting you and some of you will die.; १/६/१०, ११:०१ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Israel is sending a message,today we don't care about P.R.,there is a blockade in place,poke a tiger with a stick and get swiped.

Israel now has 3 submarines stationed in rotation off of Irans coast armed with nuclear weapons.

barrys "smart diplomacy" is in a shambling heap.

The gathering storm in the Middle East is picking up speed.

Israel is now surrounded with countries bristling with missiles supplied by Iran.

Israel now has a 15 minute lead time on missile strikes from all directions.

Play time is over...; १/६/१०, ११:०३ AM
Diamondhead म्हणाले...: "On the other hand, what do the protesters expect to happen if they use metal pipes to attack and beat men who are carrying guns? Eventually the men with guns are going to protect themselves by shooting you and some of you will die."

What happened was exactly what they expected and hoped would happen.; १/६/१०, ११:०४ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: While most of the world are pointing out (correctly) that Israel did something indefensible, stupid, and barbaric

Most of the world would be quite happy if the entire nation of Israel did a re-enactment of the Siege of Massada.

It's pretty wacky indeed when hundreds of thousands get hacked to death in Darfur and the 'world' yawns but 9 Hamas supporters get shot and the UN trips over itself to issue condemnations.; १/६/१०, ११:०४ AM
Michael McNeil म्हणाले...: Was it a mistake by Israel?

Israel sends a message.; १/६/१०, ११:०६ AM
Paddy O म्हणाले...: I'm sure Gandhi would have had the same reaction to soldiers as these peaceful aid deliverers.

I mean, come on, non-violence is more of a state of mind and political stance than an actual practice. We all know that.

We must all bow before the restraint of such non-violent peace-seekers and let them deliver their aid, lest they start hitting us with metal bars and shoot people.

Their absolute moral authority is unquestionable, cemented in place by all the wars of aggression they participated in, and lost, during the last fifty years and more. It wasn't their fault they chose to align with Germany in the world wars and then had the utter misfortune to be baited into conflicts with Israel in which they started with overwhelming odds, and ended up being tricked out of yet more land.

Those Israeli's are crafty! That's something Europe has long realized.; १/६/१०, ११:०९ AM
Michael McNeil म्हणाले...: Israel made [two] mistakes here, a) not waiting until they were within Israels territorial waters….

The flotilla would never have entered Israel's territorial waters. Gaza is not part of Israel. Nor does a blockading power need to be within some nation's territorial waters in order to exercise the blockade.; १/६/१०, ११:१० AM
Rafique Tucker म्हणाले...: Now, I can uderstand the sort of tactical argument that some are making, that Israel should've avoided this mess, and by doing whatthey did, only plaid right in to the hands of her enemies. Two questions: If that's even remotely true--can we at least call this what it was? This was not any ordinary aid flotilla. Israeli commandos warned the flotilla about proper protocol, and after the flotilla ran the blockade, IDF forces boarded with paintball guns, and they are attacked. Based on what I've read, this was a terrorist-linked flotilla, and their intent was to provoke a reaction, and the more-than-compliant international community was ready to play out the false narrative.

I'm not really sure what Israel was supposed to do. JUst let them through? If one wants to argue that Israel misclaculated, can we at least put things in context?

Just saying...; १/६/१०, ११:१३ AM
The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...: I think I've already made my position pretty clear.

Ain't it funny, all the trouble "peace activists" can cause?

wv: "range" - what these bozos were within.; १/६/१०, ११:१३ AM
DavidPSummers म्हणाले...: I just read that they are planning on sending another blockade running ships right away. It is hard to see how this can be seen as other than a deliberate attempt to get more people killed for political/propaganda purposes. Given that, it increases suspicion that this was the intent of the first set of ships all along.

And, many of those who claim to be so concerned at the first set of deaths seem set to cheer this group as the try and arrange a second set. Its hard to see that as anything but hypocrisy.; १/६/१०, ११:२० AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: I recall when the North Koreans torpedoed and sunk a ROK warship killing 47 sailors that was referred to in the MSM as 'a provacative act'. Israeli commandos defending themselves from club wielding 'peace activists' is barbaric and indefensible.; १/६/१०, ११:२७ AM
William म्हणाले...: Do not throw rocks at heavily armed, nervous men....This scenario works out badly everywhere in the world. When the Jamaicans, Brazilians, Iranians do their wet work, the world turns its head in embarassed silence.....The Greeks were in Smyrna centuries before the Ottomans. A million and a half Greeks were expelled from this territory by the Turks in the 1920's. This expulsion was conducted under harsh circumstances with many massacres. Perhaps the Greeks can organize a flotilla in order to bring this atrocity to the world's attention and to regain their lost homes.; १/६/१०, ११:२८ AM
Blue@9 म्हणाले...: Really, seriously indefensible stupidity on Israel's part. Fastroping onto crowded decks during daylight? If the "peace activists" actually did have guns, Israel would have a lot of dead commandos, shot one by one as they slowly dropped onto the ship.

The soldiers did the best they could, and it's not surprising they shot a few people while fending off bludgeoning attacks, but the Israeli leadership should get sacked for such nonsense planning. First the Hezbollah war and now this--has Israel lost it?

BTW, has Israel put out any reports on the cargo of the ships? The party line is that they were smuggling guns? True or not?; १/६/१०, ११:४० AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: This scenario works out badly everywhere in the world. When the Jamaicans, Brazilians, Iranians do their wet work, the world turns its head in embarassed silence

Honestly I don't even think the world is embarrased.; १/६/१०, ११:४१ AM
garage mahal म्हणाले...: Israeli commandos defending themselves from club wielding 'peace activists' is barbaric and indefensible.

I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us.; १/६/१०, १२:०६ PM
Paddy O म्हणाले...: "Honestly I don't even think the world is embarrased."

The world could care less about Palestinians. All they care about is yet more "crafty, insidious" behavior by the Israelis.

I mean, what if it were Armenians on that boat, and Turks attacking it. Who would even admit it even happened? What if they were Kurds? What if they were Coptic Christians in Egypt? Very few would care, and Europe wouldn't be bothered at all.

Which says something quite strongly.; १/६/१०, १२:०७ PM
Hagar म्हणाले...: Besides muffing the operation, the IDF also boarded a Turkey flagged ship in international waters and used firearms. I do not think they had thought that over as well as they should have. This was not a street rumble in the Bronx that could be appealed to the courts. In that respect, the consequences now depends on what the Turkish government decides to make of it.; १/६/१०, १२:१२ PM
Palladian म्हणाले...: "I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us."

And I think most of the world would defend the complete destruction of Israel even if Israel bought each and every Palestinian an expensive condo in Tel Aviv.

And it takes an unthinking "liberal" as stupid as garage mahal to put the "right to defend itself" in scare quotes. We all know you people find Democracy indefensible already.; १/६/१०, १२:१४ PM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us.

Just when I thought you were incapable of demonstrating even more breathtaking stupidity you step up and crack yet another one out of the park.; १/६/१०, १२:१६ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: "I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us."

Dude as a friend of yours I ask to rethink that one.; १/६/१०, १२:१८ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Personally, I think there should have been a mysterious unexplained explosion caused by a faulty boiler or something.

That's how I would handle the next one.; १/६/१०, १२:२० PM
Michael McNeil म्हणाले...: the IDF also boarded a Turkey flagged ship in international waters and used firearms.

That Turkish-flagged ship was attempting to run through a legitimate and announced military blockade, ignored orders to heave to, and its crew and passengers thereupon attacked the boarding party with deadly force.; १/६/१०, १२:२८ PM
garage mahal म्हणाले...: And it takes an unthinking "liberal" as stupid as garage mahal to put the "right to defend itself" in scare quotes.

As if sending commandos onto a ship in international waters breaking no laws and killing a dozen people is "defending itself".; १/६/१०, १२:३४ PM
Blue@9 म्हणाले...: Besides muffing the operation, the IDF also boarded a Turkey flagged ship in international waters and used firearms. I do not think they had thought that over as well as they should have.

Yeah, that's a problem. Unless Israel can produce a cargo of weapons destined for Gaza, this is simple piracy. Yeah, they can effect a blockade, but normally that means just turning the ships back, not boarding, killing, and detaining. Whoever ordered this stupidity should be fired.; १/६/१०, १२:४२ PM
Hagar म्हणाले...: McNeil

Quite so, but nevertheless it is not a minor thing, since it is a government to government issue.

This boarding fracas reads like a local IDF SWAT commander taking on more than he could handle; it does not sound like anything the Israeli government would do this way.; १/६/१०, १२:४६ PM
damikesc म्हणाले...: garage, we've seen the Left will condemn Israel while their neighbors are lobbing missiles at them. Can we have Netanyahu as President instead of the dunce we have now?

As for the world criticizing Israel, to paraphrase Ann Coulter, when it mattered, "the world" didn't oppose the Holocaust.; १/६/१०, १२:५२ PM
Rafique Tucker म्हणाले...: I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us.

Dude, that's hysterically ludicrous. That just an insnae thing to say. Clear your head and let's try that again.; १/६/१०, १२:५५ PM
Rafique Tucker म्हणाले...: ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.; १/६/१०, १२:५७ PM
Rafique Tucker म्हणाले...: I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us.

Dude, that's hysterically ludicrous. That just an insnae thing to say. Clear your head and let's try that again.

Sorry about the triple-post.; १/६/१०, १:०० PM
roesch-voltaire म्हणाले...: It appears that, unfortunately, the inner cabinet didn't debate this plan and they have the authority in this matter-- and also unfortunately now Egypt will no longer support the embargo. Just what cargo was found remains to be seen, but at this point it seems like a very clumsy action that makes the peace process even more difficult.; १/६/१०, १:०२ PM
1775OGG म्हणाले...: We should ask Haile Selassie whether the UN has become an effective replacement to the old League of Nations?

Of course, the issue would have been moot if the Israeli troops had allowed themselves to be killed. Darned "Joooos," they never follow the script as written by Europe's rulers!; १/६/१०, १:०४ PM
damikesc म्हणाले...: Rv, the Egyptians didn't support the Israeli embargo. Their embargo is a seperate affair...which makes one wonder why Israel is condemned alone for this "siege"; १/६/१०, १:१८ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Since Israel itself sends non-violent aid to Gaza, the usual suspects here might want to ask what kind of aid would need to be sent from Turkey - if they have the mental energy to do so.

Robert said...

Israel really stepped in it this time. Did they finally go too far?

As David Ben-Gurion often observed, "We will do what we must".

William said...

Do not throw rocks at heavily armed, nervous men...

Whatever else the Israelis were, I doubt nervous was one of them. Those guys have been doing spec ops non-stop since about '37; if there's a book, they wrote a lot of it.

Blue@9 said...

Really, seriously indefensible stupidity on Israel's part. Fastroping onto crowded decks during daylight? If the "peace activists" actually did have guns, Israel would have a lot of dead commandos, shot one by one as they slowly dropped onto the ship.

From what I've seen, fastroping is just that - fast. It's not rappelling. The idea is to clear the helicopter as quickly as possible. The DrillSgt or another vet can elaborate better than I.

garage mahal said...

Israeli commandos defending themselves from club wielding 'peace activists' is barbaric and indefensible.

I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us.

And I know the Left would deny Israel's right as long as it was scared to death of the Islamic cutthroats it says it respects.; १/६/१०, १:३३ PM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: Their embargo is a seperate affair...which makes one wonder why Israel is condemned alone for this "siege"

The same reason the Mexican President can be provided a forum to berate Arizona for trying to uphold US immigration law (to the wild applause of the useful idiots) and then turn around and brags about his Mexican immigration law is so strict.; १/६/१०, १:३५ PM
hawkeyedjb म्हणाले...: The first flotilla is most likely a probe, designed to facilitate future shipments of weapons. Placement of heavy weaponry in Gaza has been a goal of Iran/Hezbollah since the last war; the next conflict will have at least two fronts, as Iran will now have heavy missiles in both Lebanon and Gaza. The Turks, for reasons of their own, may very well have decided to assist in this escalation (none of the powers in the area is interested in bringing ‘aid’ to Gazans).

A third front is possible with Syria, but it’s likely that Assad will choose to sacrifice Lebanese and Palestinians rather than risk open involvement. The ultimate escalation will come if the Israeli submarines bring the frontline of the battle to the Iranians. This will be the last option, but it will be taken if Israel sees that the mullahs have decided to go for the second holocaust they so openly wish for.; १/६/१०, १:३५ PM
Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...: So....World War III, (probably the war to end all wars.. literally, because we will all be dead) is about to break out and Obama is.....where? doing what?

Note to self------> Seriously stock up in the Armageddon Pantry.; १/६/१०, १:४५ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Lucid: "On the other hand, what do the protesters expect to happen if they use metal pipes to attack and beat men who are carrying guns? Eventually the men with guns are going to protect themselves by shooting you and some of you will die."

If the Israelis weren't so intent on teaching people "lessons," they wouldn't have rappelled down ropes at night onto a civilian boat in international waters. That way they wouldn't have forced the people on board to defend themselves against commando attack.

Actually, it seems to me. If the Israelis really are concerned about arms for Hamas (which seems pretty absurd under the circumstances), they could have waited till the ship docked in Gaza and sent the local constable in to have tea with the captain while his officers checked the ship for all these weapons of mass destruction. That would have been the civilized way to do it.; १/६/१०, १:४८ PM
Leland म्हणाले...: A few comments:

the IDF also boarded a Turkey flagged ship in international waters and used firearms.

When did that happen? The vessels in the flotilla were Comoros flagged. They did reportedly have Turkish organized "peace activists" onboard, though they didn't necessarily even sail from Turkey.

It's pretty wacky indeed when hundreds of thousands get hacked to death in Darfur and the 'world' yawns but 9 Hamas supporters get shot and the UN trips over itself to issue condemnations.

Eh, the UNSC has "condemned" some of the Darfur stuff. It hasn't done anything more than that, but it has made condemnations. So far though, no condemnation of North Korea's sinking of a South Korea military vessel and the death of 47 sailors. I guess they had it coming.

Finally, for those who think this was some extra-ordinary action by Israel; where was the outrage last November?; १/६/१०, २:०९ PM
Blue@9 म्हणाले...: From what I've seen, fastroping is just that - fast. It's not rappelling. The idea is to clear the helicopter as quickly as possible. The DrillSgt or another vet can elaborate better than I.

Have you seen the video? It wasn't very fast at all. It was in broad daylight and some "activists" had already grabbed the end of the rope. Others were just waiting for the commandos to drop in--slowly--one by one. Again, I presume the activists didn't have guns, because if they did the deck would have been a scene of serial executions.

But once again, egregiously stupid on Israel's part. I'll take Israel over Hamas any day, and most times I'll take Israel over some retarded peace activists. But here? Let's admit it, Israel f**ked up really bad. Any way you cut it, it was bad for Israel.; १/६/१०, २:१९ PM
Hagar म्हणाले...: The ship on which the violence occurred was indeed Turkish flagged.

However, it appears the Turkish government will let this pass, except for some political theatrics.; १/६/१०, २:२७ PM
AC245 म्हणाले...: The party line is that they were smuggling guns?

Blue@9, where have you seen this "party line"?

(This looks like a Beth-ish maneuver to manufacture a claim out of thin air and then use it as a launching point for condemnation - which, I see, you've already done).; १/६/१०, २:४३ PM
Roger J. म्हणाले...: I think Palladian's second paragraph in the very first post cuts to the essential question. And I am one who believes when your existence is threatened use whatever measures are appropriate. International law is a crock except when you win the war, and then you can use it to your advantage.

How serious will this be? dont know, except the Israelis already have nuclear armed subs off Iran. So clearly the regional stakes have been raised.

I will be most interested to see the Obama administration's response. I can, however fearlessly predict the mid east process is dead.; १/६/१०, २:५१ PM
Phil 314 म्हणाले...: I was listening to Brian Eno

I'm impressed (seriously); १/६/१०, ३:२६ PM
Jason म्हणाले...: garage: I think the Right in this country would defend Israel's "right to defend itself" if they were parked off our coasts lobbing missiles at us.

Wow.

That's some weapons-grade stupidium, right there.; १/६/१०, ४:२२ PM
Jason म्हणाले...: Yeah, they can effect a blockade, but normally that means just turning the ships back, not boarding, killing, and detaining.

Blue,

Did you stop long enough to consider WHY a ship would be turned back by a blockade?

Ships don't do a 180 degree turn simply because you ask them nicely, pretty-please, with sugar on top, you skittle-shitting twit.

WV: actuf. Ships turn back because the blockading force knows how to actuf.; १/६/१०, ४:५० PM
Fen म्हणाले...: If I was watching all this as radical muslim, I would wonder if this is how Israel intends to defend itself.

They went in Stupid and allowed wannabe terrorists to turn their own weapons on them.; १/६/१०, ५:५१ PM
Fen म्हणाले...: If anyone thinks Israel is out of line here -

If anyone thinks Israel is out of line here, they need to go back to Fantasy Unicorn Land.

They've disqualified themselves from having any credibility on anything related to foreign policy.

And you guys on the Left suck at foreign policy. Obama's incompetence has only alientated or isolated our allies. And emboldened our enemies.; १/६/१०, ६:०० PM
Fen म्हणाले...: Coming soon to a city near you:

"...suspected humanitarian attack on the Moscow Metro today has killed at least 39 people and wounded more than 150 others...
The Interfax news agency, citing unnamed police sources, said that a female peace activist had carried out the attack."; १/६/१०, ६:१२ PM
Jack Steiner म्हणाले...: San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

You can read more here.; १/६/१०, ८:०६ PM
Eric म्हणाले...: She's apparently chosen to tread carefully here. While most of the world are pointing out (correctly) that Israel did something indefensible, stupid, and barbaric (and placed America in a very difficult spot), a lot of her blogosphere allies and her commenters are amongst those who, to borrow from Palladian, automatically support everything Israel does.

Nice Pauline Kael moment you've got going there. "Most of the world" meaning Muslims and their noisy enablers on the left, apparently.; १/६/१०, १०:३४ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Eric: "Nice Pauline Kael moment you've got going there. "Most of the world" meaning Muslims and their noisy enablers on the left, apparently."

Actually, there are a lot of us on the right who think Israel is nuts too.; २/६/१०, २:३६ AM