Althouse: "But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to 'committed vegetarians' and 'strong ethical vegans'..."

२२ डिसेंबर, २००९

"But before we cede the entire moral penthouse to 'committed vegetarians' and 'strong ethical vegans'..."

"... we might consider that plants no more aspire to being stir-fried in a wok than a hog aspires to being peppercorn-studded in my Christmas clay pot."

I've heard the old plants-have-feelings-too riposte many, many times, but Natalie Angier puts her all into it. Pretty amusing.

५७ टिप्पण्या:

rhhardin म्हणाले...: A flower prefers not to be picked.; २२/१२/०९, ९:२३ AM
Bill म्हणाले...: "I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants." — A. Whitney Brown; २२/१२/०९, ९:२६ AM
AllenS म्हणाले...: First they came for the celery, and I did not speak out—because I was not a celery;
Then they came for the wax beans, and I did not speak out—because I was not a wax bean;
Then they came for the radish, and I did not speak out—because I was not a radish;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

PotatoeS; २२/१२/०९, ९:३५ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: The moral penthouse is already occupied by men and women and children. The need to throw ourselves under the bus for plants, animals and pristine nature scenes unaffected by filthy human presence to attone for a false guilt is a doctrine of insane people. Why bow down to them? The result of a compromise is acceptance of the false authority of every death panel they dream up next from mysterious revelations coming upon them from their pet angels and demons.; २२/१२/०९, ९:३९ AM
JohnAnnArbor म्हणाले...: Have you heard of the vegetarians that won't eat honey? They say it's the product of bee slave labor.; २२/१२/०९, ९:४५ AM
bearbee म्हणाले...: I am a vegetarian. I do not expect/request it of anyone else.; २२/१२/०९, ९:५३ AM
Sofa King म्हणाले...: Have you heard of the vegetarians that won't eat honey? They say it's the product of bee slave labor.

Free bees! I only eat honey from bees that have overthrown the queen and established a dictatorship of the proletariat.; २२/१२/०९, ९:५३ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Really interesting article- biology is just neat.

On the moral aspect, I have often argued that the misplaced priorities of vegetarians and vegans (if they are doing it for "moral" reasons) is, in itself, somewhat immoral*.

People are different than animals. To pretend that they are not, or that animals have the same or similar rights as we, is simply wrong and evidences an immoral view of humanity.

* (It's not like I pattern my life after this or anything; I can still be friends with a vegetarian; there are a lot of worse things a person could do. My argument is that, when lined up together, vegetarianism is no more and in fact less moral than meat eating, not that veggies are bad people.); २२/१२/०९, १०:०४ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Good god. This is the oldest and dumbest retort from people who for some reason are threatened by those who choose not to eat meat -- whether for ethical reasons or because vegans tend to be healthier than people who live on a diet of bacon cheese burgers.

My response to this assinine comment (which I usually get from fat frat boy types) is always the same:

How 'bout we take off our shirts big boy and see who doesn't have the gut? How 'bout we have a run around the block and see who's huffing and puffing at the end?

To date, I have never once had any takers (especially when there are women in the room), even with the doughballs who are twice my age.

So, please, I like all you people. Just don't use this argument, okay? Every vegan has heard it a hundred times.

Here's the reality:

"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined."

That's from one of those fringe-y physicians, Dr. Neal Barnard, Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine.

It comes to this:

If you wanna get off the Lipitor, if you don't wanna have your chest opened for a bypass, if you wanna feel good when you get up in the morning, and look better than you have in your life, you could do worse than eating a plant-based diet.

And for those of you who might wanna write me off as a squishy liberal -- sorry. Quite the opposite.

Cheers.; २२/१२/०९, १०:१४ AM
TosaGuy म्हणाले...: "avoiding all products derived from animals, including wool and silk. Killing animals for human food and finery is nothing less than “outright murder"

Sheep are not killed for their wool. It is sheared every year and it grows back. Sheep very much enjoy not wearing a year-old wool sweater in July.

Some of these preening d-bags need to expand their diversity and experience life outside the asphalt jungle.; २२/१२/०९, १०:१९ AM
William म्हणाले...: The very edibility of fruits, nuts, and berries is part of their reproductive cycle. They must be eaten in order to propogate. The same thing can be said for many birds and animals. If the dodo bird had tasted better than chicken, the dodo bird would still be with us. Ditto for the wooly mammoth. Stringy, tough, and high in cholesterol.......Would you rather be re-incarnated as broccoli or kobe beef. My vote is for a lifetime of beer and massage followed by a quick, painless death. I don't think the average broccoli likes being ripped from its bed and thrown into a pot of boiling water... By eating meat, we are expressing solidarity with higher life forms. Grand chunks of my life have been severed, packaged, and consumed by others. That's the way life on earth works.; २२/१२/०९, १०:२८ AM
TosaGuy म्हणाले...: I really don't care what a person eats, but I really hate it when people get in my face about what I eat. That goes for the vegan who pooh-poohs my steak (or the lamb that I raised), the nature nut who wants to convict me for shooting a deer or the carnivore who razzes me about ordering a salad for lunch.

Stay out of my life and I will stay out of yours. Too few people live that way on any issue in this nation and we are worse off for it.

Its food.; २२/१२/०९, १०:३१ AM
dbp म्हणाले...: "Here's the reality:"

I eat tons of well marbled beef (nice and rare, thanks) I am 47 and did my last Marathon in 3:28

Maybe if you are sedentary it is best to stick to vegetation, but if you are active then eat what you want.; २२/१२/०९, १०:४३ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: TosaGuy:

Couldn't agree with you more.

Even though I've been vegan a long time and even though I do believe there is an ethical issue at work here as regards animal suffering, I think diet choice is a personal matter and not one for this or that group to dictate to another.

That said, I can tell you that the dust-ups I've been involved in re: my diet have all involved people who for some reason can't let it go that I don't choose to eat the way they do. In fact, I usually hide the fact I'm vegan so it doesn't make anyone else uncomfortable.

You, on the other hand, are clearly an enlightened omnivore. If you were near, I'd give you a great big man hug for that -- providing that wouldn't make you uncomfortable in any way.; २२/१२/०९, १०:४९ AM
Michael McNeil म्हणाले...: If we didn't (many of us) eat meat — if someday say we figure out how to grow beefsteaks as fruit on trees — then from then on millions and millions of cattle will never be born. Is this supposed to be a favor to them — never to have lived at all? Yeah, sure.; २२/१२/०९, १०:५४ AM
Brian म्हणाले...: If you are religious, then man as dominion over animals & plants, and can eat what he wants. But he's also supposed to be a good steward of the resources God gave him, and make sure we can sustain the livestock for future generations.

If you believe we are not superior to nature, but instead are merely animals higher up on the foodchain, then we should ... eat animals if we want to. I don't see lions and tigers worry about the sustainability of their eating habits.

If you abstain from meat for health reason, like lowering your cholesterol level, then more power to you.

In fact, I wouldn't mind going veggie only occasionally, if only to break the monotony of the diet.; २२/१२/०९, १०:५५ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: dbp:

Ya think?

Jim Fixx died at the age of 52 of a fulminant heart attack, after his daily run. The autopsy revealed that atherosclerosis had blocked one coronary artery 95%, a second 85%, and a third 50%.

Don't know if meat was involved, but I do know you don't get cholesterol from plants.

Be careful out there.; २२/१२/०९, १०:५६ AM
Matt Brown म्हणाले...: Until I hear a pig or a cow or a leek or a rutabega say, "Please don't eat me," I will continue to eat them.; २२/१२/०९, ११:०५ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: Warning to the followers of the new culture from ancient India: What you eat is not who you are. Eating or not eating anything is not a Guilt/Righteousness issue. It has no meaning, says the God and Man named Jesus of Nazareth. He says that it is the words coming out of you mouth with love or with hate that make a man clean or defile a man.; २२/१२/०९, ११:३९ AM
stealth pundit म्हणाले...: Gar - you should have kept reading on Wikipedia.

"However, Fixx came from a family where the men had poor health histories. His father suffered a heart attack at age 35, dying of a second at 42."

Whether diet or not was a function of his death I don't know. But using him as an example is a poor one given the chronic heart problems in his family.; २२/१२/०९, ११:४३ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Gar

Richard Burton died the same week as Jim Fixx.

Do you think that it was meat that killed him too?; २२/१२/०९, ११:४५ AM
stealth pundit म्हणाले...: Oh - and dbp - nice time in the marathon. I've been less successful in my attempts at that distance. Maybe next time....; २२/१२/०९, ११:४५ AM
Kirk Parker म्हणाले...: "Food choices are often like that: difficult to articulate yet strongly held."

Actually, for the vast swath of normal people out there, not so much.; २२/१२/०९, ११:४७ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Stealth:

The other side of the argument in cases such as these, is that family histories of disease are not always related to genetics -- but shared eating habits.

That is especially true with heart disease and increased consumption of meat and dairy products.

My guess is that Jim Fixx did not come from a family of strict vegans, and if that is indeed the case, your point doesn't fully hold up either, does it?

I'll call this one a draw.; २२/१२/०९, १२:०० PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Eating is a very communal, social experience. I'm sure that there is an evolutionary reason for that, and it is undeniably so- we take pleasure in sharing food.

I'm not defending the people that give you vegetarians trouble; you're right, it is none of their business. But, I get where they are coming from. As a foodie (and doubtlessly somewhat related to my Italian background), the mere idea of someone refusing to share my food feels like something of an insult, and something in me recoils at the idea that this person could not delight in, say, my delightful homemade meatballs. It makes them something of an "other," outside my sort of people.

I'm not saying it's right to let that control you or be an excuse for rudeness, but I think that explains some of the actions that several veggie's here are describing.

Also, some vegetarians are kind of self-rightious about it (cough, PETA, cough), so there's some measure of stereotyping and jumping to conclusions.; २२/१२/०९, १२:०१ PM
Joe म्हणाले...: Don't know if meat was involved, but I do know you don't get cholesterol from plants.

Dietary cholesterol has very little impact on blood serum cholesterol. Cholesterol is produced by your liver, so yes, eating nothing but plants will be responsible for your cholesterol levels.

But thank you for proving the point that vegetarians are annoying as shit.; २२/१२/०९, १२:०७ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: "Richard Burton died the same week as Jim Fixx. Do you think that it was meat that killed him too?"

I have no facts one way or the other, Mark. And look, I don't care if you eat meat or not. It's not my choice; it's yours. I am in total agreement with TosaGuy on this -- I'm a live and let live guy.

So, if Richard Burton was a personal friend of yours or something, I apologize for dredging up a painful week.; २२/१२/०९, १२:१२ PM
vbspurs म्हणाले...: (Oh great, I was about to post a link to this article, as I didn't think Althouse would blog about it)

Having read the article earlier, which referenced soccer fanatic Jonathan Safra Foer's conversion to vegetarianism (him, likes soccer, doesn't eat meat -- can anyone get more un-American than that?), all I can say is:

Well, duh, plants feel.

I mean, didn't vegetarians stay awake in Science class in 5th grade? To this day, I can name the parts of a plant -- stamen, pistil, ovule, sepal, and all the other vaguely Indian-looking terms.

Looking at the names, it makes you want scratch your head in incomprehension at their lack of comprehension of what they are doing.

Hello? Flowering plants have got OVULES. That means that whenever vegetarians bite into those tasty chestnut dishes at vegetarian restaurants, they are murdering the plant and their young. ABORTIONISTS!

Cheers,
Victoria; २२/१२/०९, १२:१३ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: That proves it then.

Vegans are annoying because they don't eat meat. Apologies to you, too, Joe. Don't know where you got your science, though.

While it's true that our bodies produce cholesterol, plants have zero cholesterol. Cholesterol comes from animal food only.; २२/१२/०९, १२:२२ PM
bagoh20 म्हणाले...: "A flower prefers not to be picked."

Deflowering is a big step, but we all need to take it.; २२/१२/०९, १२:२५ PM
bagoh20 म्हणाले...: News flash: You will not survive!; २२/१२/०९, १२:३१ PM
bagoh20 म्हणाले...: It's incredibly frustrating being ethical. I mean I'm just assuming it is.; २२/१२/०९, १२:३४ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Lyssa:

You are one hundred percent right.

Eating is a communal experience and I'm sure your meatballs are amazing; I love Italian cooking.

The point is not all vegans or vegetarians are self-righteous prigs. I do not judge people who eat meat. There's nothing better than the smell of bacon frying in a skillet. Any vegan who tells you otherwise is probably lying.

Also for the record: not all vegans are healthy. Hell, I know a bunch of fat, pimply faced vegans who live on nothing but potato chips and soda. That is not a diet, that is a statement.

Speaking of which, as much as you (and I) may dislike PETA, you should hear Ingrid Newkirk talk about meat. She loves the stuff and in fact used to be a big meat eater. Her experience with euthanizing animals is what turned her against it. So she's an ethical vegan. I respect that.

And I think everybody else should.

Also, I think the folks here, when confronted with a (politically) conservative vegan should try to be a little more welcoming. We're supposed to be big tent, are we not?; २२/१२/०९, १२:३६ PM
dbp म्हणाले...: "While it's true that our bodies produce cholesterol, plants have zero cholesterol. Cholesterol comes from animal food only."

The amount of cholesterol needed per day is about 1,000mg and a person typically gets around 300mg from diet, the rest is synthesized. The reason high cholesterol foods seem to raise (bad) serum cholesterol is that these foods are also high in saturated fats, which for some reason cause higher serum levels.

So vegetarians who eat a lot of palm or coconut are just as screwed as us carnivores.

wv: mutre How they spell muter in the UK.; २२/१२/०९, १२:३८ PM
dbp म्हणाले...: D'oh!

palm or coconut OILS; २२/१२/०९, १२:३९ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: dbp:

Right you are. Those oils are no better than the fat in meat. Some cardiologists on the dietary treatment camp urge that people avoid all of it, even avacados.

That's the advice of Esselstyn, whose first name I forget at the moment. He was (or maybe still is) the head of cardiology at the Cleveland Clinic. He's adamant that those oils should be eliminated from the diet altogether, although his advice is mostly for heart patients.

His son, btw, Rip Esselstyn, wrote a diet book (yes, it's vegan) called The Engine2 Diet. He's a champion swimmer and currently a firefighter in Austin. The conceit of the book is that he challenged his company buddies to change their diets for one month and they did. The results, in weight loss and lowered cholesterol, were pretty dramatic.; २२/१२/०९, १२:४६ PM
bearbee म्हणाले...: re: plants and cholesterol:

Correct appreciation of the cholesterol content of different food components is important because diets are often intended to control cholesterol intake, and need to be based on true information. Although the cholesterol content of plants is typically much less than that of animals it is by no means negligible: It can be as high as 5 g cholesterol per kilogram of total lipids in animals, but averages about 50 mg cholesterol per kg of total lipids in plants, and is much lower than this average in certain oils. For example olive oil typically contains 0.5–2 mg cholesterol per kg and sesame oil about 1 mg cholesterol per kg. For designing diets it is also important to understand that labelling laws in the USA (and probably elsewhere) allow amounts less than 2 mg per serving to be shown as “zero”.; २२/१२/०९, १२:४९ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: dbp:

Just in case I didn't make myself clear though: there's no cholesterol in those oils. They are high in saturated fats, however.; २२/१२/०९, १२:५० PM
Shanna म्हणाले...: In fact, I wouldn't mind going veggie only occasionally, if only to break the monotony of the diet.

I like to eat vegetarian part of the time, if only because the food tastes good (actually, I’ve been eating veggie lunches a lot), but I have to have some meat and when I want a steak (which is about once a year) I have one.

Vegan though...man I wouldn’t want to give up cheese. What a sad existence! The people who do that for ethical reasons, may I ask why? Do you think the cow (or goat) cares that you have taken the milk?; २२/१२/०९, १२:५४ PM
Sigivald म्हणाले...: John: "Moral Vegans"*, yes. Hilarious. Stop oppressing those bees!

* The self-chosen term for those who have some issue with bee-oppression, rather than the delusion that they're More Healthy because they don't eat a single animal product of any sort.

Gar: Uh, no. "I'm fit so you can't mock vegan moral posturing" is not a very convincing argument.

Fit meat eaters exist, as do un-fit vegetarians and vegans.

(I submit that human biology is more suited to omnivorism than wacky no-animal-products hippie shit.

Even vegetarians eat honey and dairy and eggs. Know why? Because they're very good sources of a wide range of nutrition and there's no reason not to other than moral posturing.

I mean, nothing really personal about it. It's like being a Scientologist, though - no matter how sensible someone is in other areas, it's just hilarious.); २२/१२/०९, १२:५४ PM
bearbee म्हणाले...: The people who do that for ethical reasons, may I ask why? Do you think the cow (or goat) cares that you have taken the milk?

What do you think happens to that cow (or goat) once its production value is finished?

Retirement with social security and medicare benefits to plush fields of green?; २२/१२/०९, १:०४ PM
Shanna म्हणाले...: Those oils are no better than the fat in meat. Some cardiologists on the dietary treatment camp urge that people avoid all of it, even avacados.

There is no doctor in the world that can convince me that an avocado is bad for you. Me, I think real food is the best food for you, the closest to nature you can get. Cows that eat grass, vegetables and fruits, and real fats, not fake stuff.

What do you think happens to that cow (or goat) once its production value is finished?

I imagine it lives a far longer life than it would being any other kind of cow. Would the cow have a better/longer life if I stop eating cheese? Probably just the opposite.; २२/१२/०९, १:०८ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: "There is no doctor in the world that can convince me that an avocado is bad for you. Me, I think real food is the best food for you, the closest to nature you can get. Cows that eat grass, vegetables and fruits, and real fats, not fake stuff."

Shanna, I am with you on this.

You're totally wrong about the life of dairy cows, however. Here's how it goes in a typical, industrial diary operation, where most milk comes from:

The mother cow will be hooked up several times a day. Through genetic manipulation, powerful hormones, and intensive milking, she will produce about three times as much milk as she would naturally. She may be pumped full of bovine growth hormone (BGH), which contributes to painful inflammation of the udder, known as “mastitis.”

This last is what is responsible for the pus that all milk contains to some degree (again, if they come from industrial dairy operations, which most do).

Also this:

A cow’s natural lifespan is 25 years, but a cow used by the dairy industry is killed after only four or five years. By the time they are killed, an industry study reports that nearly 40 percent of dairy cows are lame because of the filth, intensive confinement, and the strain of constantly being pregnant and giving milk.

Once again, these are descriptions of big factory farming operations. If you see a cow in France, more likely than not they are living the life that the Dairy Board here would have you believe is the way it is everywhere.

Tain't so.; २२/१२/०९, १:२७ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: "Gar: Uh, no. "I'm fit so you can't mock vegan moral posturing" is not a very convincing argument."

That's not the argument I'm making, Sigivald.; २२/१२/०९, १:३२ PM
TosaGuy म्हणाले...: I am not into all that plant pain and other sensient being stuff. Its all interesting, but it is a weak argument.

But I will propose to the radical vegans that unless you go grazing on what naturally grows in a particular spot, your impact on nature is just as big as eating meat. Chances are something other than avacodos or corn wants to grow in that field and we humans can't eat it. Most of the land in this nation has had its natural plant environment utterly destroyed for farmfields.

Not that that bothers me....but I point that out to the types I mentioned earlier who think sheep are killed for their wool.; २२/१२/०९, १:४० PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: TosaGuy:

I think I'm responding to the presumption held by some here that all vegans are, by dint of their dietary choices, radical and irritating.

I would propose to you that no matter how you or anyone may label me, or put "my kind" in some box, vegans are no more monolithic in their views than are gays or blacks or any other minority group. To think otherwise is just ... I don't know if there's a word for it yet, meatist?

If you knew me, I think you'd be surprised by how much we have in common -- outside of my radical diet, of course.; २२/१२/०९, १:५७ PM
Shanna म्हणाले...: Once again, these are descriptions of big factory farming operations.

I’m not a fan of big factory farming operations, but I don’t go to great lengths to find out where the cows come from. If I could buy raw milk directly from a farmer next door, I would do that. I would love it if all cows led happy lives romping about farms, eating grass, and we milked them without using hormones and I am willing to pay more for that. But, it’s not the cheese/milking cows that’s the problem, it’s the way the industry operates.; २२/१२/०९, २:०२ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: You put your finger on it, Shanna.; २२/१२/०९, २:०३ PM
Shanna म्हणाले...: That said about the dairy industry, I have no problems with a cow being killed when it's time to doll out the steaks. I think humans are meant to be omnivores, but I would be glad if we could go back to more natural methods in diary farming. And I realize costs might go up for that. Where it's an option, I try to purchase wisely but sometimes it's hard to know what to buy.; २२/१२/०९, २:०४ PM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: The industrial cruelty of planting wheat and corn just to REAP the plants for its seed needs to be stopped while there is a Moral Thinking Idiot left to point out that massive 10,000 years of torture of innocent living plants. I wont mention the slaughter of grasses to make lawns look mowed for a cosmetic reason only. Oh the guilt!!!; २२/१२/०९, २:१४ PM
TosaGuy म्हणाले...: Gar,

I was not insinuating anything against you since I had gathered that you were not a radical vegan in the like of D-bags who would rather I die than the cow that I eat.; २२/१२/०९, २:४९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Gar said: "The point is not all vegans or vegetarians are self-righteous prigs. I do not judge people who eat meat."

You're absolutely right there. We've had basically the same discussion on this board a number of times, if you replace veganism with atheism. Most atheists are great people, but the ones that you remember are the assholes who make a big deal out of it.

I still think your take on food is crazy, but you seem like a nice guy.

That said, you did jump into a defensive mode that a lot of vegetarian/vegans jump into that, to me, sounds awfully judgmental and sanctimonious when you made a much earlier comment comparing the health of vegans to those who live on a diet of bacon cheeseburgers. I know you know this, but it seems like veggies seem to forget, there is a line between gluttony and meat-eating. Far too many of us cross that line, but it's not really about eating meat; it's about not caring about what you put in your body.

Not, of course, that I have anything against bacon cheeseburgers, it's just that they're a "sometimes" food. To ignore that distinction makes you come off as somewhat rude and silly. (Which, reading your later comments, I don't think is accurate).; २२/१२/०९, ४:४१ PM
Revenant म्हणाले...: To me, saying that vegetarians hold the moral high ground is like saying that people who refuse to wear white after labor day hold the moral high ground.; २२/१२/०९, १०:१७ PM
Synova म्हणाले...: Oh dear god.

A cow's "natural" lifespan is no where near 20 years. As in, lifespan in a state of nature "natural" lifespan.

Dying of *old age* might take 20 or more years for your general bovine, but no cow (or other animal, actually) can be expected to die of old age UNLESS it is being protected by humans.

The *natural* life span of herd herbivores involves risky juvenile years followed by a few years of reproduction followed by death and consumption by predators.

The *un-natural* life span of milk cows involves a far greater chance of making it to adulthood than a wild herd herbivore, and the cows themselves are cared for, monitored and fed... they generally respond to modern "at will" milking, which means the cow goes to get milked when *she* feels like being milked... no more being confined to a stall all day every day for years.

It's not a bad life at all and being useful for domestication is THE apex evolutionary attribute. Cows wouldn't and *don't* exist in the wild.

Getting rid of their domestic utility for MORAL reasons is genocide.

BTW... anyone here other than myself ever actually worked on a dairy farm or milked a cow?; २२/१२/०९, १०:२७ PM
Synova म्हणाले...: "Industrial" dairy farming is actually quite interesting and highly complex. I grew up on a small farm where we did everything the hard way and you know... it wasn't more humane or cleaner... it was just less efficient. Instead of computers monitoring each individual cow and measuring out mineral and vitamin supplements, we had to do the math by hand, and no matter if a cow was declining in production or was in the heaviest phase of milk production she got milked when *we* decided to milk her every 12 hours, and there sure wasn't any relief between times and yes, mastitis is nasty and usually happens to cows who are producing too much milk between milkings.

With a large milking parlor operation the cows wander in whenever they feel "full" and don't have to wait. Even the wash and dip and milking itself can be automated (which sort of blows my mind... we were advanced enough to have a pipeline!) There is also enough volume in a larger operation to have employees who are there to do the milking around the clock instead of the "family farm" milking *on* the clock, every 12 hours... do you think calves nurse only twice a day 12 hours apart?

Cows are personable and, I'm convinced, have a rude sense of humor, and I've seen them joyfull. But they aren't people.

I'd really hate for the world to be without cows.; २२/१२/०९, १०:४४ PM
Palladian म्हणाले...: Vegetarianism is a sin against pleasure.

"Good god. This is the oldest and dumbest retort from people who for some reason are threatened by those who choose not to eat meat -- whether for ethical reasons or because vegans tend to be healthier than people who live on a diet of bacon cheese burgers."

We're not threatened by you. We just think you're stupid.

"My response to this assinine comment (which I usually get from fat frat boy types) is always the same:

How 'bout we take off our shirts big boy and see who doesn't have the gut? How 'bout we have a run around the block and see who's huffing and puffing at the end?"

I was a vegetarian from age 16 to age 26. I didn't get fat until after I became a vegetarian. Since I sensibly started eating the flesh of dead things once again, I've actually lost weight.

But it doesn't really matter. There seems to be little correlation between diet and longevity without the heavy influence of genetics.

And in fact I'd rather die eating a pâté de foie gras than a piece of wheat gluten shaped into a sandwich patty.

Or better yet, take a lesson from bearbee and stop trying to desperately justify your dietary choices by running down mine.; २३/१२/०९, १:५१ AM
careen म्हणाले...: Professor of mine taught that the reason organic food doesn't need pesticides is because the plants make their own, so "pesticide-free" food is actually full of them.; २३/१२/०९, ११:१६ AM