Leaving the basilica half an hour later, Mrs. Clinton told some of the Mexicans gathered outside to greet her, “you have a marvelous virgin!”The linked article, from the Catholic News Agency ends with this pregnant paragraph:
This evening Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is set to receive the highest award given by Planned Parenthood Federation of America — the Margaret Sanger Award, named for the organization's founder, a noted eugenicist. The award will be presented at a gala event in Houston, Texas.CNA does not like the Secretary of State.
***
There is a lot of commentary on this story, and I won't clutter this post with all the details. It follows a predictable right/left split. Either Hillary is an idiot not to know the story of the miracle or it's a faux gaffe trumped up by Hillary haters.
I'll say that I didn't know this story myself, but I do think that if I was representing our country and visiting any cultural site, I'd have somebody telling me what I needed to know not to look stupid from the perspective of those whose respect I wanted.
Anyway, think how much worse it could have gone. I'm picturing this:
Who painted it?
God!
Ha ha ha. No really. Who painted it?
God!
Ha ha ha. You people kill me. Come on. Seriously.
God!
Look. I have seen paintings that were done by ordinary mortals. Leonardo. Raphael. Michelangelo. If God were going to suddenly make a painting, wouldn't it be... uh... you know... better?
पोस्ट्स
१४३ टिप्पण्या:
To be fair to God, it was a mixed media. It was imprinted on Juan Diego's tilma (not a canvas) which should have disintigrated hundreds of years ago, but hasn't.
Look. I have seen paintings that were done by ordinary mortals. Leonardo. Raphael. Michelangelo. If God were going to suddenly make a painting, wouldn't it be... uh... you know... better?
Well, uh, what can I say, it was a spur-of-the-moment thing, I had to transmute the flowers into raw pigment, the poncho wasn't the best backing to work with---cut me some slack!
I'd have somebody telling me what I needed to know not to look stupid from the perspective of those whose respect I wanted.
Kind of like if the Prime Minister of a major ally were visiting, you would be sure to find out what the protocol was for gift giving so you wouldn't look stupid giving him a set of steak knives when he had your colors done, then carded the wool, spun it into yarn and knit you a sweater he had designed himself?
I'll say that I didn't know this story myself, but I do think that if I was representing our country and visiting any cultural site, I'd have somebody telling me what I needed to know not to look stupid from the perspective of those whose respect I wanted.
Exactly - this is just like the overcharge button and the DVDs-that-don't work-in-the-UK gaffe. Not really a big deal in itself but it is another indication that the administration's staff work is pretty shoddy so far.
I'm a staff officer myself and would be mortified if I let my boss fuck up like that, so I'm curious how this happened. I can't believe she wasn't briefed up on this story beforehand...perhaps she just didn't pay attention? Or maybe she's not the smartest woman in America after all?
You gotta wonder how well-prepared she is to deal with Iran and North Korea if she can't get up to speed on routine stuff like this.
Shows how much I know.
I always thought Leonardo WAS God.
And that the other mutant ninja turtles were like some kind of saints.
Hmmmmm.
1. Are there any adults in this White House?
2. Frankly words fail me. The icon is only on practically every car in Mexico and the American southwest.
Maybe she was preoccupied with a fear of snipers at the airport, and she lost her train of thought. Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
Physicians and psychologists are wise not to acknowledge the ghosts and fantasies of their patients but rather to question the visions so as to lead the patient to reality.
The same thing has to be done for Catholics and all the others who see saints and virgins all over the place and who think that prayer works.
That's why folks like Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris are so valuable.
"If God were going to suddenly make a painting, wouldn't it be... uh... you know... better?"
By the same logic, if God were going to suddenly appear on earth as an infant, wouldn't it be with a...uh...you know...wealthier, educated, sophisticated, better class of parents?
Somehow, I don't think God really cares about that.
Hitchens wouldn't be so clueless as to ask "who painted it."
...wouldn't it be... uh... you know... better?
Believers are so quaint.
And welcome to the faux pas administration.
My opinion of Hillary just went up. Do we really want our most important statesperson to pretend that fairy tales are real?
Well, I mean, Hillary is right. Someone had to have painted it -- do you guys actually think it miraculously appeared? ;)
Ok, I confess, I painted it.
Who asks who painted the Mona Lisa?
I do emphasize with Hillary, which pains me immensely. This is part of the difference between Protestants, and esp. the strand of Protestantism that she was raised in, and Roman Catholicism. One of the things excised from (many) Protestant churches during the reformation was Marian worship, and to this day, those strands view her as little more (Biblically) than Jesus' mother. As such a Protestant, whenever I run into this sort of thing, I wonder, from where did they Biblically leverage this. She had a fairly minor role in the Bible, but now, 2000 years later, almost seems to dwarf her son.
It's wanting to say that symbols make sense, which is to say that others make sense.
It's a poetic way of saying that others matter.
You can be stupid about what you literalize, but everybody literalizes something.
I'd have somebody telling me what I needed to know not to look stupid from the perspective of those whose respect I wanted.
No one tells Hillary Clinton anything. She is the “smartest woman in the world”. Bill had to sell the encyclopedia set. That is why she always is so stupid.
Wait until she finds out that the Shroud of Turin isn't the tarp the covered Walt Kowalski's Grand Torino.
Does Hillary have no competent staff? Or, as Peter suggests, does she just not bother to be briefed?
I'm a non-believer, but I don't see any reason to offend my hosts when I'm visiting somewhere. That should go double or triple for a SecState.
i love the "you have a marvelous virgin" part. I imagine that line being uttered regularly in houses outside of las vegas in the form of a question! Bill must ask it all the time!
Hillary claims that she has over thirty five years in public service. Now this has never been verified, fact checked, or vetted. It is in her biography. That is it. She says it is true and by God everyone better believe it or else.
In the words of a infamous store front preacher, the chickens are coming home to roost America. Hilary is not qualified for any position of responsibility and authority. Obama appointed this disaster of a human being and embarrassment to women everywhere as Secretary of State. Now we have to suffer her comedic antics. Obama better tell her to STFU or slap good old fashioned duct tape on her pie hole.
Bruce - I don't know ANY Catholic engaged in "Marian worship."
Marian devotion, yes. Honor and veneration, yes, as one would expect to show the utmost respect to the mother of one such as Jesus. But not worship. Only God is worshiped. Catholics do not and never have believed that Mary is divine (a god).
As for whether God could have made a "better" image -- well, the appearance of Mary and the image on Juan Diego's tilma were good enough to convert countless Aztecs who, only a couple of years earlier, were engaged in the practice of human sacrifice.
So, in fact, it seems to be a pretty good job that God did after all.
Now we have to suffer her comedic antics. Obama better tell her to STFU or slap good old fashioned duct tape on her pie hole.
Unfortunately, it's not like he's any better -- he gave tacky Region 1 DVDs to the British PM. I think they're both being let down by the drivelling incompetents in the Administration. That or the State Department, which always seemed to hate Bush II, hates Obama and Clinton even more. Which is possible, I guess.
Giver hr a break- Saul Alinsky never wrote anything about the Virgin Mary!
I thought everybody knew who painted it! But I was brought up in a Catholic enclave. She's not a Catholic but anyone who has traveled to Mexico has been told that story by a guide.
She must be really, really tired. I think it would be appropriate to say "you have a very nice Virgin" because it is meant as Virgin, not virgin.
Ah, I love "smart diplomacy". These people have the stench of one-termers about them. While I thought it was not humanly possible, they will even be worse in foreign policy than Jimmy Carter. I cannot wait until they get their chance to build houses for the poor.
For downtownlad, Hil and her boss are just selective in the fairy tales they believe. Apparitions of the Virgin Mary - no; the use of Keynesian economics to end the recession - yes; or using appeasement to protect the goals and interests of the United States - yes. At least with Our Lady of Guadeloupe, you have some evidence of success.
First, this seems like a very small matter to me. I agree with Maguro, that it is a failure of her staff.
Then Jimbino wrote: "psychologists are wise not to acknowledge the ghosts and fantasies of their patients but rather to question the visions so as to lead the patient to reality."
Actually, we psychologists don't work much with crazy people. They are crazy! You can talk about the little green men on the roof that party at night and keep the schizophrenic up, or you can deny the existance of these chartreuse party aliens, but neither will help.
The right dosage of an antipsychotic usually does wonders.
And secondly, those of us who believe in God and miracles do not need your help Jim, it is you who need ours. 8)
Pray that your eyes are opened, our cannot be closed since they have been opened.
Trey
dtl said: "Do we really want our most important statesperson to pretend that fairy tales are real?"
As an avowed atheist myself, let me answer your question: Yes, yes we do.
Not that I believe for a moment that this gaffe was the result of her own disbelief or disdain for religion -- this gaffe was the result of ignorance and lack of preparation borne of arrogance. In contrast, I think that Obama's snubbing of the British was intentional, and meant to punish them for working a little too closely with the last (Republican) administration.
What is to be gained, DTL, by offending one of our biggest trading partners on a visceral level?
And would you also approve if, when she visits Saudi Arabia or Iran, that she make a mockery of that whole "Allah is the one true god" thing? Maybe she should point out some of the many contradictions in the Koran.
Would you be supportive if Hillary asks a hardline Muslim cleric who wrote the Koran?
Or are you a hypocrite and coward, ready to confront religion only when the religious are unlikely to saw off your head with a dull butcher knife?
I think it's beyond picky. Not having heard the story is not a gaff. The question is an ordinary one. It's no worse than asking what a famous local dish is made of and no more socially damning than asking questions to encourage the locals to talk about themselves and their culture.
The restart button was a gaff.
This is just expressing interest.
CNA does not like the Secretary of State.
Does anyone? Seriously. Does anyone really like this woman?
Maybe Hillary can cry again. Pretend to be human. Pretend she is so concerned. You know, those nice phony tears, acting all choked up, telling the lie about how much she cares about America; the country she hates. Yeah, that's the ticket. I'll bet the whole world will love her then.
Those Euroweenies love women who cry. Perfumed hankies would be flying around all over the place.
She would get those pats on the back from "understanding women. I'll bet even the chidren, who she is supposedly for, will write songs about her.
Then maybe, someday, a picture will mysteriously appear under a bridge. A homeless black hispanic transgendered person will discover it. A likeness of the Blessed Bitch; St. Hillary Clinton. A legend is born.
If you pray to someone, then you're worshiping them.
And I don't think that not knowing who painted this is a big deal. She asked politely, and was told politely. Would we mock a foreign dignitary who didn't know who wrote the preamble to the constitution?
My opinion of Hillary just went up. Do we really want our most important statesperson to pretend that fairy tales are real?
Actually, yes, we do want them to pretend that they are real. It's called diplomacy. And if I recall, she was supposed to be good at that.
But that doesn't matter one bit. She didn't even know enough about the "fairy tale" to pretend.
She is as clueless as her boss.
Synova, no. Our Lady of Guadelupe is the Mexico cultural icon. It's not a "story" but a belief system that far surpasses religious iconography. The Lady is the go-to for everything that one wishes, lacks or hopes. It's difficult to grasp if you haven't lived in Mexico.
This gaffe is akin to a diplomat or foreign dignitary asking what that red, white & blue banner waving over our cities signified.
That our SecState wasn't briefed prior to the tour is unacceptable and tone deaf diplomacy. Makes one wonder if Hillary isn't being sandbagged at Foggy Bottom.
This is a trivial point. While her staff should have prepared her better, one shouldn't expect a Protestant from a northern state to know who the Virgin of Guadalupe was. I suspect most Irish or Italian Catholics (until recently, the backbone of the Catholic Church in the US) wouldn't know who the Virgin of Guadalupe was, much less a Methodist from the Midwest. If Bill Richardson said this, it would have been a faux pas of epic proportions. Hillary, not so much.
And I went to the Planned Parenthood gala mentioned in the article. Good crowd, good speech, and good times. Even though it was held, rather ironically, in the George Bush ballroom at the convention center. (But, maybe that's not an irony, in that George Bush was a supporter of Planned Parenthood in Houston, until he decided to run as Reagan's VP and thereafter.)
dtl: Do we really want our most important statesperson to pretend that fairy tales are real?
Coward. Go "speak truth to" Islam. We'll even provide you with a security detail after.
unaware that the image of -
I was unaware too. But then I'm not one of the "cultural elite" that Hillary is claimed to represent. I guess the Art History types don't talk up religious work at their fancy cocktail parties and fundraisers.
Would we mock a foreign dignitary who didn't know who wrote the preamble to the constitution?
That is a ridiculous concept. Most, if not all foreign dignitaries are better educated- real education- than those here. They are also better informed and more culturally aware. They read up on things and do or have research done. Lastly, they would never ask a question they did not have the answer to. You see, they are intelligent.
We are stuck with an idiot.
Oh, man, please keep her away from the Shroud of Turin:
"Excuse me? Excuse me? Someone forgot to wash the tablecloth!"
For downtownlad, Hil and her boss are just selective in the fairy tales they believe.
Yeah, their ghost written autobiographies. The probem is too many others believed them too.
I am surprised the migrant farm workers in Park Ridge, IL., with whom she used to toil in the fields in summer, when she was young, for her church didn't relay the story behind this. Bad migrant workers, don't make Hilary look bad!!
To the excusers of Hillary-
this image is inshrined people make pilgrimages there.
A city practically rotates around it.
You don't think someone on her staff could have explained to her why it is a worldwide Catholic attraction?
Catholicism being one of the largest religions it really is hard to draw a parallel example that you might get-
It would be like going to Mecca and asking where's the pork?
Bill's got a hankerin' for barbeque.
Or imagine if Bush went to Mecca then asked if he could get a beer.
Because we all know you've got more respect for Mecca, and Muslims...
they've earned it! [sarc]
Joe Biden must have prepped her.
She's just following our own traditions in foreign tourism, as described by Mark Twain.
My wife adds: We didn't know that much about it, but at least we would have read the wikipedia article about it beforehand.
Somefeller said:
"And I went to the Planned Parenthood gala mentioned in the article. "
They referred to it as "Unplanned Parenthood" on a South Park episode I just watched. Heh.
Think about that for a moment.
No, no, reality is never good enough. It must be dissed in favor of the miraculous.
And Hillary was never good at diplomacy. Barack said so during the primaries, admitting she had no qualifications - just like him. Which is the only way her appointment makes sense - or even more of a head scratcher.
Why anyone goes along with this charade is beyond me.
Do we really want our most important statesperson to pretend that fairy tales are real?
I would love for Hillary and the rest of the Obama administration to publicly denounce any and all religions as fairy tales. That would be so cool.
Well, to be fair to Hillary, I had heard the story, but when I saw the picture I thought it might be a later image made in tribute to the original.
To be less fair to Hillary, it raises the question of how much her "35 years of experience" of laying a wreath on something really counts. I mean, if one aide buys the roses and another aide tells you where to put it, you could totally miss the significance of laying roses at the shrine of Our Lady of Guadaloupe. Does that count as a full day of experience, or not?
I'm with Maguro on this one. at least 4 people screwed up.
1. Whoever her Aide de Camp is. The gal/guy who whispers in the Bosses ear about who the next diginity is.
2. The Protocol Officer out of the US Embassy in Mexico City. I assume they prepared a detailed itinerary with background briefs, etc.
3. The SecState's, Chief of Staff, who failed to get the SecState to do her job
4. Hillary, who canned or at least Didn't get Obama to keep on the previous US Ambassador to Mexico. A Texican named Garza, son of Mexican immigrants, married to a gal born in Mexico City. Likely if they hadn't canned him, the trip would have run smoother :)
"If you pray to someone, then you're worshiping them. " perhaps you are unable to make a distinction between worship and praying (asking for intercession)... however Catholics can and do.
Yes, Hillary was raised Protestant. However, she was raised in an area that is 40% Catholic. I have many Catholic friends from Park Ridge and I tend to think that a general understanding of Catholicism is the kind of thing one picks up in the process of becoming well educated. I am not Protestant, or Buddhist, or Muslim... but I have taken the time to learn about those faiths. One would hope that our Secretary of State would do the same.
This should have been included on the briefing. Mexico is a widely Catholic country and understanding that history seems like something a diplomat would do before going to a major Catholic shrine.
I am not a diplomat and I took the 5 minutes to read about major Buddhist shrines in Thailand before I went to them. Couldn't she take the 5 minutes to read the explanation of the shrine in Lonely Planet?
Does Hillary have no competent staff? Or, as Peter suggests, does she just not bother to be briefed?
Seriously something wrong with this administration when it comes to diplomacy. You don't have to be a believer or to be of the same religion to know enough not to offend your hosts. She is supposed to be the chief diplomat, the person who is reaching out to other countries, other cultures, other diplomats. Instead of aplomb and competence, we have ham fisted, juvenile insulting antics.
I was baptized at the Basílica de Guadalupe as a baby, and wear my baptismal medallion all the time, as many Christians wear the cross. Nuestra Senora de Guadelupe is extremely important to Latin Catholics.
The State Department should have prepared Hillary so she wouldn't insult the Mexican people, Catholics and make our country look even more stupid.
Several thoughts come to mind.
1. The Obama administration is so arrogant that they don't think they need to take the advice of the lackeys of the previous administration
2. The Obama administration is so clueless that they think they can just rely on their own resources. Ignoring generations of people who work in the diplomatic corps.
3. They are lazy, incompetents who don't bother to be prepared.
4. People within the diplomatic corps are deliberately sabotaging the Obama administration ( I like this one)
5. all of the above.
Why assume God is good and competent? Give the evidence around us, isn't it more likely that God is an ass and a blundering idiot? (Assuming He even exists of course or isn't completely detached from us, which explains the world the best.)
Who has the Kliban cartoon, the Virgin Mary reveals herself to a Volkswagen in Denver; or the Composition Notebook of Our Lady.
They would have been a fine countergift.
Playboy Mexico got their tits caught in a wringer when they ran this December 2008 cover just just days before the annual pilgrimage to the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City. The pilgrimage is one of the world's largest religious events, as others have said it's on a level with the Mecca in the Muslim world. Playboy feigned innocence, proffered a lackluster apology and pulled the issue off the market.
Mexican men are among the world's most ardent admirers of the female form. That Playboy met it's match, not by a censoring govt or disapproving clerics, but an outraged public, is a comment unto itself of the significance of the image.
I'm beginning to think that the Obama crew hoped Hillary's arrogance would overtake her SecState operation and she would tank.
The perfect fingerprint less means to end her political career with minimum damage to CRP 2012.
If you pray to someone, then you're worshiping them.
Not true. Catholics pray to Saints and the Virgin Mary to intercede. Not to worship.
Synova: Not knowing about one of the most important events in the Latin Catholic religion, whether you believe it or not, and then asking stupid questions is NOT on the same level as wondering how they make Turkey Mole. It is a huge HUGE insult. She couldn't even be bothered to learn something about the religion and the revered/holy site she was visiting.
It would be the same thing as going to Mecca and wondering aloud who carved that big weird rock.
"Reset Button."
"Who painted it?"
Man, maybe John Kerry would have been a better choice. (Just kidding.)
This is not just a trivial gaffe. It's a very embarrassing mistake, at a very important place in one of the most important countries (to us) in the world. It will not be forgotten in Mexico.
What I find most telling is the apparent lack of apology by Secretary Clinton. That's in character though.
Hillary needs to elevate her game. Fast.
"There is a lot of commentary on this story, and I won't clutter this post with all the details."
God knows, we don't need "details."
"I'll say that I didn't know this story myself, but I do think that if I was representing our country and visiting any cultural site, I'd have somebody telling me what I needed to know not to look stupid from the perspective of those whose respect I wanted."
But a pure partisan shot at Hillary (without details of course) is just fine?
TMink says: "we psychologists don't work much with crazy people. They are crazy! You can talk about the little green men on the roof that party at night and keep the schizophrenic up, or you can deny the existance [sic] of these chartreuse party aliens, but neither will help. The right dosage of an antipsychotic usually does wonders."
According to Wikipedia: "Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:
* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)"
It sounds like Hillary should just start carrying anti-psychotics for her dealings with Catholics and Muslims.
Since when are people (other than devout Catholics) so concerned with what the CNA thinks about anything?
Are people here also against birth control? A woman's right to choose? All abortions?
I find this entire thread to be less than fair (especially considering a lack of specifics facts - I can find only four references to the story, all from blog sites), and really just another means of denigrating Hillary Clinton.
And can I also assume people here actually think God painted it?
You got it - it's all about making fun of the woman whose husband got a knobber in the oval office.
The Clintons are such fun - glad we still have them to kick around.
"Are people here also against birth control? A woman's right to choose? All abortions?"
That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Go try to start your Usenet flame-war somewhere else.
"I find this entire thread to be less than fair (especially considering a lack of specifics facts - I can find only four references to the story, all from blog sites), and really just another means of denigrating Hillary Clinton.
And can I also assume people here actually think God painted it?"
No, dipshit. It's just that a lot of us think that the United States' head diplomat should actually understand basic facts about the places that she is visiting. Don't you think our Secretary of State should be a little better informed?
downtown lad said:
"My opinion of Hillary just went up. Do we really want our most important statesperson to pretend that fairy tales are real?"
I hope she doesn't pretend that Mohammed is Allah's prophet when she goes to Iran and Saudi Arabia!
downtown lad said:
"My opinion of Hillary just went up. Do we really want our most important statesperson to pretend that fairy tales are real?"
I hope she doesn't pretend that Mohammed is Allah's prophet when she goes to Iran and Saudi Arabia!
This has nothing to do with religion or the authenticity of religious beliefs. It doesn't matter whether you think God, Tintoretto or Gerhard Richter painted the image. This is about diplomatic protocol, which is a basic requirement of the job of Secretary of State.
I bet Hillary wishes she could get one of those "reset" buttons for her job performance so far.
"No, dipshit. It's just that a lot of us think that the United States' head diplomat should actually understand basic facts about the places that she is visiting. Don't you think our Secretary of State should be a little better informed?"
Thanks for the "details."
There's nothing like an intellectually based response.
When any other news organization picks this up, let me know.
Otherwise it's nothing more than a CNA writer providing the information.
Jeremy asked: "Are people here also against birth control? A woman's right to choose? All abortions?"
OK, I will bite. Of course I am only speaking for myself.
No.
I am all for choices that do not involve murder.
Almost all. It comes down to personal responsibility and the life of the mother. A rape is a crime, not a choice. I can support abortions in that small situation. Also if the life of the mother is threatened. Take both of these together, and we would have less than 20,000 abortions a year instead of 1,000,000 a year. I could live with that.
Since I was adopted in 1960, saying that I could live with that is not at all metaphorical.
Trey
If you pray to someone, then you're worshiping them.
How silly.
When making a "prayer for relief" in legal pleadings, does anyone really believe that the lawyer is worshiping the court?
And if it were not the Catholic Church who was the one to give full respect to the pronouncement of the Bible -- the Word of God -- that Mary is "full of grace" and "blessed among women," if it were not the Catholic Church who loves Mary as Jesus loves His mother, then I suspect we would not have had such silly arguments spread throughout history.
Hmm. My Spanish is a little rusty, but I'm not seeing any reference to this incident in the story about Clinton's visit in El Universal, one of Mexico's prime newspapers. Could this be an urban myth or something overblown by the CNA?
TMink - I only asked about the other aspects of the Catholic religion because suddenly, many here are evidently 100% sure the CNA report Ann provides is true and relevant.
I can find no other news relating to this, other than blog site comments.
And: somefeller said..."Hmm. My Spanish is a little rusty, but I'm not seeing any reference to this incident in the story about Clinton's visit in El Universal, one of Mexico's prime newspapers. Could this be an urban myth or something overblown by the CNA?"
I think somefeller is on to something. Plus my BS detector is twitching. This reads like a warm-up story to prime the audience with something that sounds likely to spring the real story of Hillary receiving an award named after most famous American eugenist, already despised by that audience. I'm mentally filing this anecdote under C for consider the source.
Chip - I agree.
I can find nothing in the Mexico City newspapers relating to this.
You two gringos can't find it -
therefore it didn't happen.
It's also possible that given Mexico's economic situation they wouldn't want to embarrass the Secretary of State of the great economic power directly to the North-by blasting it on their front pages where gringos like you could decipher it.
All this surrmizing done on you doesn't excuse all the weak defenses put forth by the excusers of Hillary earlier in the thread.
Of course our media tells you what to be upset about and what not to.
In them you have full faith.
Amateur hour by the Obama administration. What else is new? Maybe she can follow it up by sending Iran a Hormel Ham assortment next week.
And just because I don't have all day to wait for you two to conjure up your responses-
If you can question their motive to print the story, yes I can suggest that there are also motives not to blast it on the Mexican radio-or whatever you are tuned into.
The motivations for not printing it front and center are far greater.
Remember it is you two that started down this slope of slippery rational.
If we want to question motives- you are losing.
madawaskan said..."You two gringos can't find it - therefore it didn't happen."
No.
I personally just find it interesting that, if it's so important, so devastating to Hillary Clinton's credibility, no one other than the CNA published anything about it.
Actually, people in Mexico are usually quite happy to print stories involving blunders by Yanquis. I think they see it as a small bit of payback for the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Plus, their press makes ours look pretty tame in terms of sensationalism and competition, so one would think if this was a story that people in Mexico would consider important, some big players in the local press would run with it.
So, while it is possible that the vast liberal media conspiracy extends to the press in Mexico, one can look at other possibilities, such as (a) the incident didn't happen (at least in the way it was described by CNA) or (b) the incident happened, and the Mexicans don't care about it, notwithstanding the claims from the anti-Hillary types that this was a dreadful insult to the honor of Mexico that will be remembered for a long time. But, I would agree that conspiracy theories are more fun than Occam's Razor, so carry on.
I would be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and say-
As she was surrounded by everything in Guadeloupe; the shrine that has been built up, the Catholics on pilgrimage all around her, the industry that has sprouted up to support and benefit from that, the protection for the artifact, after seeing all of that she would be too tired to have the intellectual capacity to wonder what the fuss was about, and that she would slip into WASP Superiority Mode-
Hey! Catholics are dumb paint any> picture of the Virgin Mary and they will come!
The thing is that benefit of the doubt only gets offered up to the Perfect Democrats, over and over again and I guess the message is we can't question and criticize the little things about this administration. We have to wait for that to go unchecked long enough until they do something really, really stupid.
The over coddling of Democrats by the media is how we ended up with Obama in Chief with his faux Catholic cotillion and the most corrupt Finance Committee you could get in the Information Age.
The Chinese, the Russians, the Koreans hell the Iranians are going to chew these neophytes up and eat them for breakfast.
Cripes we are in trouble, and who is going to pay for their inexperienced, unquestioned idiocy?
The U.S. military.
madawaskan - You appear to be on some kind of mission, but the point I and others have made is this: Why is there only one source for this supposedly (at least according to you) important faux pas?
Hillary has gotten almost universal rave reviews thus far, even from the right, yet you hold this up as some kind of definitive evidence that she's not qualified.
somefeller-
Nope, it's simple-if you are going to question the reasons for printing a story I'm going to question the other side of the equation.
And, I'm not going to take two gringos with a liberal bend on the intertubes word for it that they put a good faith effort into finding it.
We've seen example after example of unfair reporting for every one of Bush's foibles-
Sorry if the tract record of Obama and Hillary's diplomatic performances thus far cause most people to find this story not that unbelievable.
madawaskan said..."I hate the Clintons."
And there you have it.
A true American.
"And, I'm not going to take two gringos with a liberal bend on the intertubes word for it that they put a good faith effort into finding it."
Firs of al, what is the world is this "gringo" crap? What are you?
Second- If you think we're not looking hard enough, provide some links of your own.
As to "Obama and Hillary's diplomatic performances thus far," they've only held office for about 60 days.
Good grief.
Jeremy wrote: "Hillary has gotten almost universal rave reviews thus far, even from the right,"
From the right? Source please.
Trey
Ghee-
Jeremy you saw that?
Think you quoted me fairly?
Or were you motivated to leave one part out?
You're about as fair as our press-so I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to ask Hillary about this in a major forum.
Ya, and in just 60 days they've done some stupid stuff.
If this incident was a big diplomatic/cultural kerfuffle that caused offense among the people of Mexico, it shouldn't be hard to find evidence of that in the Mexican press. It wasn't hard to find examples of articles about how at least some people in the UK thought Gordon Brown was being snubbed with the (admittedly) lame gift of DVDs, etc. So, while absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence, it is often a good start for that. But time, and people who have more time than I do to look into this further, will tell.
Also, as far as the "gringo" characterization goes, I can trace my ancestry back to Spaniards who colonized parts of Texas in the 1700s. So, while "guero" would be a good word to describe me (it has been used by some), "gringo" is not. But, yeah, I am of a liberal bent, so at least you batted .500 with that one sentence. Kudos.
I have a personal devotion to the Virgin Mary but I can understand that a lackluster Protestant such as the Secretary of State would not any knowledge or interest in the culture or religious beliefs of any little country she might be visiting. I would not expect her to be familiar with the Infant of Prague and would not be surprised if she thought Lourdes was Madonna's daughter with a Spanish dancer. It is too much to expect her to be fully versed in the religious and cultural mores of the many countries she will visit in the coming months. She should devote her efforts to apologizing for the previous administration pursuing the national interest instead of passing the global test promulgated by the enemies of our nation and preparing excuses for the next diplomatic blunder.
Also you must realize that as the spouse of Bill Clinton, you can be sure she has very seldom been in the company of virgins for any appreciable length of time. I submit that it is not her fault and this criticism is unwarranted.
somefeller-
Hey Beck makes a good album with guero in it.
As for the gringo crap I love to yank Liberal's chains.
Look I think the American media has enough to at least question Hillary on this, and see what her response is.
I'm almost willing to bet they don't.
And baseball stats?
That's a foreign language to me probably because my team was the Pirates and I choose to blank that out.
Listen we already know that Nancy Pelosi thinks Nine Hour Novena needs to be paid overtime, and that Joe Biden thinks she should be at least given her shots.
…just another means of denigrating Hillary Clinton.
It is not denigration. It is truth. Hillary Clinton is inexperienced and incompetent. The only reason she was even elected to the Senate was because Giuliani dropped to to get cancer treatment. If not for that, she would have gone back to the only thing she is qualified for; Bill’s doormat.
…spring the real story of Hillary receiving an award named after most famous American eugenist…
Eugenist, as in eugenics? What we condemned Hitler and the Nazis for? Or are there good eugenists and bad eugenists? Just asking.
Hillary has gotten almost universal rave reviews thus far…
From who? I have not seen any rave reviews in MSM. Olbermann and Matthews do not count. The first is not human and the second is a teenage gushing girl dressed as a man.
Was it reported in the Mexican press?
http://www.exonline.com.mx/diario/noticia/primera/pulsonacional/le_explican_quien_pinto_el_ayate/552283
http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?id_nota=422950
Joe Biden thinks she should be at least given her shots.
I wonder how Joe Biden is going to react if the video of his daughter snorting coke is released. Maybe he will do the same thing he did in Chicago when his lovely tramp fought bouncers and then police officers because she, Joe Biden's little drunken spoiled brat, was not let into a bar. He called in all kinds of favors to get her off the hook.
Just a factual note. The image of the Virgin of Guadalupe was reportedly imprinted by Mary not God. Various saints and even other mortals are reported to have the power to perform miracles. (Proof of miracles is, in fact, a requirement for canonization.)
one shouldn't expect a Protestant from a northern state to know who the Virgin of Guadalupe was
Should one expect the Secretary of State to know?
The spin, on both sides, is predictable.
For supporters, it's not true and if it is true it's unimportant and how could anyone expect her to know such trivia?
For detractors, it is true, and if it's not, well, it might as well be with all the other faux-pas.
For true comedic effect, Hillary should have said, "Hey, I recognize her from a waffle I have back home."
Thanks DBQ.
@Jeremy, you're still thinking in campaign mode, or maybe you just don't get it. I'm as conservative as anybody commenting, but it gives me no pleasure to see gaffes in America's dealings with Mexico, Great Britain, Iran, and Russia. Least of all, under the circumstances, with a Latin American country in general and Mexico in particular. We have enough "ugly American" problems in our dealings with Mexico without the SecState being the ugliest (and I'm referring to her cultural insensitivity and not to her looks).
I don't want the current administration to be failures in foreign policy. That's not good for my country. Can I make it any more plain than that?
I wonder if this will wind up like the Bush 41 "gaffe" of the check out counter. He wasn't amazed at barcode technology he was amazed at a new feature that automatically updated inventory. Of Course the hostile press howled at how out of touch he was. Perhaps this "gaffe" is the same. An event miscontrued but used for partisan warfare. Oh who I'm kidding, this will never happen with the MSM flacking for her.
Once again I must state the obvious. I think that the right wing echo chamber is being very unfair to the Secretary of State. It is not surprising that the details and symbols of Catholic belief are foreign to her. I would only expect here to recognize the mark of Satan since she is in fact one of his principal minions.
Um, might I point out that if no one ever asked the Monsignor at Guadalupe "Who painted this image?", the good Monsignor would never have an opportunity to answer, "Why, God painted it, my child! Have you not heard about the miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe? Sit for a moment and I will tell you..."
The question "Who painted this image?" is absolutely central to the lore of Our Lady of Guadalupe, since the very nature of the alleged miracle is that it cannot possibly have been painted by human hands. There are no claims that the image of the Virgin from time to time jumps off the cloth and comes to life, like Olivia Newton-John did in the opening scene of Xanadu; nor does the image weep blood or do card tricks. The entire substance of the miracle is that the image was in fact produced miraculously by God, and was not painted by mortal men.
Therefore, asking the question "Who painted it?" is essential to maintaining the legend of Guadalupe -- if the question were not asked, and thus the answer "It was a miracle!" were not elicited, no one would pay the slightest attention to the image.
To put it much more succinctly:
Hillary obligingly fed the Monsignor a straight line -- "Who painted it?" -- so that he'd be able to deliver the punchline: "God."
Of course Bush 41's best gaffe was puking in the Japanese prime minister's lap. Now there's a formal event that didn't go according to script.
Wait, we're digging up Bush 41 gaffes now?
To the Hillary pardoners-
Nothing much excuses why you would call the Catholic News Agency liars and then add insult to injury by applying sinister motives as to why they would lie about it.
All in the face of the fact that Hillary has not denied it.
Also see Steven's comment. He found what you didn't want to find.
I highly expected you would be somewhat unmotivated to find examples that your hypothesis about the Catholic News Agency being the only news source reporting the event was wrong. A supposed fact accepted in minutes by yourselves which was supposedly evidence that they were lying.
Wait, we're digging up Bush 41 gaffes now?
Well, there was a reference to Bush 41 gaffes a few comments up and I thought everyone might enjoy a nice puke video just before dinner. Just trying to be thoughtful.
"Our Lady of Guadelupe is the Mexico cultural icon. It's not a "story" but a belief system that far surpasses religious iconography. The Lady is the go-to for everything that one wishes, lacks or hopes. It's difficult to grasp if you haven't lived in Mexico."
What it says about Hillary! is irrelevant; it's about US diplomacy, maintaining friendly relations with a bordering country (and one that's basically in a civil war at the moment) that we are asking to help us during a tight patch right now. It is unbelievable that this occurred!
Here's what I recall from the "Chicano Studies" course I took at UCR 18 years ago: the "Brown Mary" was something that, when it appeared to the indigenous folks, suddenly allowed them to claim a spot in the religious system of their Spanish oppressors, or something like that. In essence, the Brown Mary is one of the primary symbols of Mexican identity!
How the hell the "smart" team sends their fearless leader into that situation without ensuring she doesn't fuck that one thing up is beyond me.
I'm embarrassed for my country because of this, and really, we all should be; it was horribly gauche of the nation's chief diplomatic officer to misspeak like this.
I sense she's going to be gone soon. And will be back in '12, running the "I told you so" primary challenge, being the Kennedy to Obama's 1980 Carter. The Republicans had better hope so, actually, since they'll need the split in the Dem ranks to have a chance depending on which unreformed toilet-slave they nominate next time around.
Maguro--
"Maybe this is more dessert talk."
Dessert talk demands pie. Just sayn'
Sheesh, I don't even speak Spanish, but going back and forth between Babelfish and Google, it took me all of two minutes to find coverage of this on Mexican websites. (I used quién pintó, "who painted," as a search term to get started.)
For example, at La Jornada, I found a story in which Monsignor Monroy says that Clinton asked "quién había pintado el lienzo y cómo se había conservado" -- which, with a little help from Babelfish, I translate as "Who had painted this linen, and how had it been preserved (so well)?"
(Assuming those were Hillary's actual words, it would be evidence that she'd done her homework, because the question touches on three different aspects of the Guadalupe miracle: That it was not painted; that it's made of cactus fiber rather than linen; and that it's astonishingly well-preserved (assuming that it's really 16th-century cactus fiber).
Later in the article, Monroy opines that Clinton "quedó impresionada e impactada, luego de conocer sobre la aparición de la guadalupana" -- "she was impressed and deeply struck, after learning about the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe."
Apparently the Monsignor wasn't overly offended by Hillary's question, so why should anyone else be?
I'm the last person to defend Hillary, but it looks like her visit to the Basilica was not planned (U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made an unexpected stop at the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe, from the CNA article), so nobody would have prepped her for it. Maybe we should cut her some slack. Shudder.
Blogger TMink said..."Jeremy wrote: "Hillary has gotten almost universal rave reviews thus far, even from the right," - "From the right? Source please."
Neocons, Republicans Rave About Obama’s ‘Team of Rivals’
Karl Rove, “Bush’s brain.”
“I am gobsmacked by these appointments, most of which could just as easily have come from a President McCain … this all but puts an end to the 16-month timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, the unconditional summits with dictators, and other foolishness that once emanated from the Obama campaign … Hillary Clinton and [James] Steinberg at State should be powerful voices for ‘neo-liberalism’ which is not so different in many respects from ‘neo-conservativism.’”
– Max Boot, neoconservative activist, former McCain staffer.
“I see them as being sort of center-right of the Democratic party.”
– James Baker, former Secretary of State and the man who led the theft of the 2000 election.
“Surprising continuity on foreign policy between President Bush’s second term and the incoming administration … certainly nothing that represents a drastic change in how Washington does business. The expectation is that Obama is set to continue the course set by Bush … “
– Michael Goldfarb of the neoconservative Weekly Standard.
“I certainly applaud many of the appointments … “
– Senator Lamar Alexander, senior Republican Congressional leader.
Hillary Clinton will be “outstanding” as Secretary of State
Hillary Clinton will be “outstanding” as Secretary of State -Henry Kissinger, war criminal.
daredevil-66 said..."I wonder if this will wind up like the Bush 41 "gaffe" of the check out counter."
Well, considering she isn't running for President, I wouldn't count on it.
Also, I still see no other articles or reports of it even happening.
Do you have one?
Jeremy-
Those could be considered pre-reviews.
At this rate all I can say is-
Hillary is only going to be able to get away with the dumb blonde act so many times.
Jeremy-
try looking up the thread.
madawaskan - You negated any form of objectivity or intellect with your "I hate the Clintons" comment.
And by the way, "hate" is an overused term.
madawaskan - I'm also waiting for any other link or report relating to the topic at hand.
Do you have one?
Ya I hate what they didn't do-and I deleted it but not fast enough for you.
You don't think you could have been half way fair, and alluded to the reason-
Why?
btw-I'm letting you get away with something HUGE.
Go see Steven's comment, again up the thread.
{Here's a hint: I'm going to start calling you Tenacious D}
Apparently the Monsignor wasn't overly offended by Hillary's question, so why should anyone else be?
Bingo. As I mentioned above, there isn't much evidence that this incident is of any real interest to anyone other than some conservative bloggers and journalists in the US, who are trying to create a diplomatic or cultural controversy where none exists. The story was a minor one at best in Mexico, and if you go to the websites of Mexico's main newspapers (like the ones cited above that have articles on the topic), you'll see that it isn't exactly a prime story among the locals. And I suspect that's because they don't really care much about it, rather than it being an example of the Mexican media moving en masse to suppress a story about something they normally love to write about - a prominent Anglo-American making a blunder.
@Jeremy, go read what Я -- R wrote. He had no trouble finding Mexican news reports. His take is a bit different from mine, which is that the proper response to Hillary's question is embarrassment that she could be so poorly prepared. She is, after all, representing all of us -- liberals, conservatives, and people who can't make up their minds alike.
If somefeller and Я -- R are right, that this was taken as "no big deal" in Mexico, then we -- the US -- got lucky this time. Next time could be much more serious. If she's dawdling on putting together a staff, or if she's not listening to the foreign policy experts already there in the State Department, or if the problem is that she simply doesn't listen to the staff she does have, then I hope she'll treat this as a sign that she's got to get better.
Well Hillary isn't running for president (yet) I am agnostic whether it was really a blunder or not. My point is it all depends how the media chooses to spin it. Given their lap dog allegiance to the democrats and hillary in particular, I wouldn't worry too much.
Hillary Clinton will be “outstanding” as Secretary of State -Henry Kissinger, war criminal.
War criminal? Kissinger? Are you smoking something?
BTW, Hillary is on the tea, taco, and crumpet circle. Obama sent Kissinger to do some heavy lifting overseas. Just goes to show how much he really values Bill's doormat.
Big Mike - You actually think this is a "big deal?"
Really?
Peter - "War criminal? Kissinger? Are you smoking something?"
Now this is really classic.
Suddenly, Kissinger is not considered a conservative Republican, but really a "war criminal"???
That is rich.
Um, Jeremy, uh, maybe you should go back and read your own comment. You called Kissenger the war crimianl. Are you senile or just a typical fucking agenda driven liar?
Peter, you missed my point.
I'm not surprised, but why the "senile or just a typical fucking agenda driven liar" attack?
Oh, and you spelled Kissinger wrong.
What was Hillary thinking of when she left the senate?
Lomg and short, it was a stupid mistake. It shouldn't be repeated. Hopefully, it won't be.
a lot of the comments miss the point.
If you want Mexico to be the friend of the US you don't insult the Virgin beloved of 80% of their people.
She did't show respect for their beliefs...
Dawkins , Harris , and Hitchens each expouse the following when proselytizing their views.
"* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)"
Sound like the above are the basic tenets of evangelical atheism as well as Christianity.
It wasn't 3am so she wasn't ready...
@Jeremy, You.Still.Do.Not.Get.It.
At best we -- the US of A -- dodged a metaphorical bullet. Once again, typing ve-e-r-r-r-r-y s-l-o-o-o-w-w-w-l-y, so you can follow. This was a screw up. I say again. This.Was.A.Screw.Up. The fact that it looks to have had negligible repercussions is immaterial. Next time could be serious.
If Hillary was any good as a manager she'd be undertaking a root cause analysis and trying to see to it that something like this doesn't happen again.
I see three possibilities, but there may be others. (1) She doesn't have her entire staff in place and for whatever reason does not trust the State Department people already on hand. The remedy is to complete her staff. (2) She has filled her staff, but the people she has are incompetent. The remedy is to bite the bullet and replace some or all of them with professionals. (3) She has competent staff, but does not allow sufficient time to be briefed in her schedule or otherwise doesn't listen to her staff when they attempt to prep her. In that case she'd better fix herself and quickly.
And now I'm going to apply root cause analysis to you, Jeremy. (1) You are an insensitive clod who regards giving offense to a Latin American country as "no big deal." Alternatively, (2) you could simply be stupid. Or, (3) you are so caught up in the "right vs. left" battle that to you the only reason any conservative gets upset at Hillary or Barack or Joe or Barney or Nancy or Hank or good ol' Chris Dodd is because we are conservatives and they are liberals. My personal view is that it is mostly #3, partly #1, and tinged with a scintilla of #2.
Earth to Jeremy, your side won the last election. Your side worked hard to get the job; now your side has to do the job. Out in the real world whether or not one dislikes Hillary is utterly orthogonal to whether or not she is screwing up. She is screwing up. And I hope for the sake of the US of A that she stops.
Keep in mind that this is the same Hillary who had a standing order in the White House that staffers in the hallway were forbidden to make eye-contact as they passed the First Lady.
I can absolutely see some poor State lackey (and I never thought I'd sympathize with one such) scurrying after Hillary through the hotel lobby and up the Basilica steps, blithely ignored as he or she waves a 3x5 card Hillary refuses to notice....
As for the quality, clearly, being in Mexico, God was heavily influenced by Frida Kahlo the unibrowed Marxist wallpainter/progressive visionary muralist....
I think we're having a little trouble with establishing some kind of scale of stupid here. Most people mostly think my politics are mostly rightward-leaning, although I get called a communist sometimes (I don't think hard money is the cure for all economic evils, for example.) And I grew up in the Southwest and as noted, the picture is everywhere. None the less, I didn't know the story of its miraculous provenance. So I don't find it hard to imagine she didn't know.
(I also think it's was pretty sneaky of God to paint it as a perfect example of 16th century Mexican folk art, all colorful and all.)
Sure, it was a slip, but one that I bet approximately a half-zillion Prot tourists have made in the past. I'll even bet the priest has a little prepared speech in his head to explain it.
The horror about it seems a little strained, though. Compared to, say, blowing off the nearly blind Prime Minister of the UK, then giving hom a Wal-Mart gift box of DVDs, or telling China that we're not worried about human rights in Tibet, or Jimmy Carter's speech telling the Poles that the US wanted to have sex with their country, it's really minor.
And I grew up in the Southwest and as noted, the picture is everywhere. None the less, I didn't know the story of its miraculous provenance. So I don't find it hard to imagine she didn't know.
However, YOU are not the Secretary of State of the United States representing our country in tricky diplomatic circumstances. It isn't important what YOU know or don't know.
I would have expected that the Secretary would have been briefed by her staff as to some of the more important aspects of the culture of the country she was visiting so as not to make embarrassing 'fox paws'.
The fact that Mexico is now is a life or death civil war struggle with drug cartels is probably why this current mistake by the Secretary of State hasn't gotten bigger press down Mexico way.
BUT....this minor diplomatic screw up, it indicative of much bigger screw ups to come.
And to answer a previous poster up thread.....I would guess that most of the Catholics who are posting here don't really believe that the "painting" was a miraculous imprinting on cactus cloth. That is irrelevant what WE believe. The important part is that the Mexicans, who consist of mostly Mestizos, do believe and are proud of the Brown Virgin. We don't also believe that a lost Imam is going to come climbing out of a well, but you'd better believe that that is an important tenant of some sects of Islam.
Believe it or not.
Wouldn't it have been cool if God painted it in a photo-realistic style. Still, I think we can all be happy that like he left human waste out of his palate like most modern artists.
It's long past time for the "Christers" who have held the world under their thumb for two millennia to be discredited. Here's an example of one of the superstitious fools in an unguarded, private communication with one of his imaginary, fantastical ghosts:
"Lord,
Protect my family and me.
Forgive me my sins and help me guard against pride and despair.
Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just.
And make me an instrument of your will."
BHO
I don't have time to read through all the comments, but based on the shamelessly biased way the article is written, I have no reason to accept any of the facts of the story as this writer presents them as true.
The Catholics are the idiots. God did it? Riiiight. She probably just smiled that little smile she gives Bill all the time.
I'm so tired of these manufactured "oopsie" moments that people are using to try and impugn this administration's authority. Bush fucked up so hard SO many times, people must just be longing for the good old days of feeling like they are better than their government officials.
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