Althouse: "I don’t want to attack [Ingrid Betancourt], but the truth is very savage."

२६ फेब्रुवारी, २००९

"I don’t want to attack [Ingrid Betancourt], but the truth is very savage."

“We were infected enough with her behavior in the jungle... Now I just want to get immunized."

४५ टिप्पण्या:

Automatic_Wing म्हणाले...: Hardly surprising that people who were imprisoned together would start to get on each other's nerves. I'm sure lots of the inmates at Riker's Island don't particularly care for their cellmates either.; २६/२/०९, ८:०५ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: You should see the jeremiad I am writing about my wife and kid. Not pretty.; २६/२/०९, ८:१२ PM
George M. Spencer म्हणाले...: Certainly much safer to direct your anger, resentment towards another hostage than against the scum with the guns.; २६/२/०९, ८:२० PM
Donna B. म्हणाले...: Wouldn't it have in the best interest of FARC to encourage animosity among the captives?; २६/२/०९, ८:४३ PM
Donna B. म्हणाले...: Insert "been" in the previous comment, so that it might make a tad bit of sense.; २६/२/०९, ८:४३ PM
Jason (the commenter) म्हणाले...: I have been following this on a few Venezuelan blogs. The entire saga has been amazing, but the American media has largely ignored it. I assume because Chavez is a darling of the left and he had his fingerprints all over this. Also because several prominent Democrats were implicated in working to help FARC. (Basically, Chavez has purchased their support with bribes of cheap oil to poor people in their districts.); २६/२/०९, ८:४७ PM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: (Basically, Chavez has purchased their support with bribes of cheap oil to poor people in their districts.)

Joe K Jr in cahoots with s Commie? Tell me it isn't so, Joe :); २६/२/०९, ८:५० PM
Penny म्हणाले...: Or perhaps a good reason to never be "haughty" before your captors cut out the tongues and cut off the hands of each and every 'best friend' with which you shared your "little slice of heaven".; २६/२/०९, ८:५१ PM
Penny म्हणाले...: Oily is...well... oily.; २६/२/०९, ८:५७ PM
Joe म्हणाले...: A politician acting in their own selfish interest at the expense of everyone else: inconceivable!; २६/२/०९, ९:०७ PM
Revenant म्हणाले...: Betancourt is a rich aristocratic Green Party politician. Let's just say the odds of her being an incredibly obnoxious person are very high indeed.; २६/२/०९, ९:३६ PM
Freeman Hunt म्हणाले...: Imagine being in captivity with your average Senator. --shudder--; २६/२/०९, १०:०२ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: That was funny, Seven Machos, LOL!

I feel there is an untold story in the fact that Ingrid's former aide "became pregnant" while in captivity. This suggests she was f***ing FARC. The plot thickens...; २६/२/०९, १०:३५ PM
vbspurs म्हणाले...: I _knew_ this would come out eventually about Ingrid Betancourt.

Ever since I saw an cable documentary about her, which included her run for the Presidency, I realised that a diplomat's daughter and ex-Miss Colombia would have this kind of envy leveled at her.

She seemed convinced of her own moral superiority against the powers that be in Colombia, which of course, were highly corrupt -- but nevertheless she gave off a Teresa Heinz Kerry aura.

The kind that knows better because she's seen the world, is more liberal and enlightened than others, and isn't in it for the grubbiness of money.

As Maguro said, it's inevitable that people held in such awful captivity would get tired of each other, but it tells you something when her own friend and associate is estranged from her.

You can forgive others from being jealous about the attention she got, but not the friend who knew going in what she was like.

Cheers,
Victoria; २६/२/०९, १०:४८ PM
Andrew म्हणाले...: In a life there is a miscellaneous.
http://law-us.blogspot.com/; २६/२/०९, ११:२३ PM
Roberto म्हणाले...: Blogger Great White Father George said..."Certainly much safer to direct your anger, resentment towards another hostage than against the scum with the guns."

So you think these people are lying?; २६/२/०९, ११:४६ PM
Jason (the commenter) म्हणाले...: You can forgive others from being jealous about the attention she got, but not the friend who knew going in what she was like.

She didn't have a friend with her, she had an aide, someone who was paid to be around her. The aide was kidnapped, not there of her own accord. Also the aide was raped and had her baby taken from her and used as some weird political pawn. So give her some slack.

Victoria, you kind of sound in love with Ingrid Betancourt from your description of her. That must have been some good propaganda you saw.; २६/२/०९, ११:४६ PM
Roberto म्हणाले...: Queen Victoria - "Ever since I saw an cable documentary about her, which included her run for the Presidency, I realised that a diplomat's daughter and ex-Miss Colombia would have this kind of envy leveled at her."

You think these people are envious?; २६/२/०९, ११:५१ PM
Beth म्हणाले...: I feel there is an untold story in the fact that Ingrid's former aide "became pregnant" while in captivity. This suggests she was f***ing FARC.

Simplest story is that she was raped in captivity, whether by brute force or coercion.

The savages here are the kidnapping militants. I don't ultimately care whether some people behave worse than others when in fear of their lives and played against their fellow captives. I hope we can celebrate courage and noble behavior without getting a salacious pleasure out of the much more common human frailty.; २७/२/०९, १२:०३ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Just google it, Jason. She was not raped. She had a relationship with a man she refuses to name or condemn. No, I'm not going to condemn her, I don't know her. But I also am not going to lionize her.; २७/२/०९, १:१६ AM
vbspurs म्हणाले...: Victoria, you kind of sound in love with Ingrid Betancourt from your description of her. That must have been some good propaganda you saw.

I don't get it.

I was being neutral in saying it's evident to me that she would've been envied, given her background and the fact that she received 99% of the attention in captivity. Then I said that it tells you something when a friend (it was a friend, BTW, as much as an aide) turns against her, not just people who never dealt with her in civilian life.

How do you read that I am in love with her, given this narration?

Cheers,
Victoria; २७/२/०९, २:४६ AM
vbspurs म्हणाले...: Two books of interest. I believe if you click via this link, Ann will get credit if you buy it.

Until Death Do Us Part (My Struggle to reclaim Colombia) by Ingrid Betancourt

Out of Captivity: Surving 1,967 Days in the Colombian Jungle by Marc Gonsalves & Tom Howes; २७/२/०९, २:५० AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: By using the word `fucking`, you are judging her. Don`t weasel out now by denying it.; २७/२/०९, ३:५२ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: Alongside tales of heroism, there were numerous stories about betrayal, collaboration, and calumny among Jews in concentration camps and Cambodians in Khmer Rouge labor camps.

Captives are held to a higher standard, a noble military one, which requires a flawless heroism, one unseen in daily life, where few resist even the mildest coercion in office politics.

The captors, however, seem to carry little or no blame, if there is any discussion about them at all.

I used to find this odd, a double standard where the real offenders, the kidnappers, the militant utopians, these vicious ideologues, are not held in utter contempt, when one should spit before saying their names, and pray after , that they should be decried as inhuman and evil at every opportunity.

But they are not. Fascism only begets this response, hence Godwin's law. But all of the similar acts in the 20th century and since then have not been so judged. Three guesses why.; २७/२/०९, ६:३९ AM
Shanna म्हणाले...: I watched that video of Ms. Betancourt a while back and I got the vibe that she could be massively annoying. I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck in the jungle with her.

Still, it's a little unseemly for the hostages to be bitching about other hostages, unless they were in league with the enemy or something. And they could hardly tell. People in hostage situations might very easily play along with their captors to try to protect themselves, and I think it's probably especially hard for women.; २७/२/०९, ६:४० AM
Shanna म्हणाले...: She had a relationship with a man she refuses to name or condemn.

Also, doesn't this sound like pretty much classic stockholm syndrome?; २७/२/०९, ६:४२ AM
Darcy म्हणाले...: I hope we can celebrate courage and noble behavior without getting a salacious pleasure out of the much more common human frailty.

Beth, that was excellent. Amen.; २७/२/०९, ६:४४ AM
KCFleming म्हणाले...: Art Spiegelman's MAUS shows this same problem of bitter often ignoble infighting amongst captives.

In the face of overwelming experiences, the individual can only bear witness to the inexpressable horror of human violence, for which there are no words sufficient to the task.

Bitter reprisals against one's fellow prisoners is far easier than integrating this trauma into one's psyche, a sub-narrative that can unfortunately narrow into the undeserved focus of rage.

I feel terrible for these people, and can hardly bear to read about it.; २७/२/०९, ७:१४ AM
VinceP1974 म्हणाले...: This is like Ruthless People meets Die Hard meets Survivor; २७/२/०९, ७:४१ AM
traditionalguy म्हणाले...: No wonder there was no rescue attempt for so long. Everybody was glad she was gone.; २७/२/०९, ८:२९ AM
Darcy म्हणाले...: One of my favorite books, Pogo. Yes.; २७/२/०९, ८:३३ AM
Frodo Potter म्हणाले...: Jason (the commenter) I also did not understand your remarks to Victoria. I thought she was being neutral to even mildly critical of Betancourt.

One thing we need to understand is that people communicate on different levels and we can be very successful on one level and not another. Some people do great one-on-one, but are terrified to speak in front of a crowd. Others have great presence, even charisma in front of crowds or a camera, but struggle to relate to people on a more intimate level.

Betancourt has enormous charisma, but she may well be awkward on the personal level. She may also simply be an egomaniac. I don't know.

Add in the other factors: guns, rapists, the Stockholm Syndrome, the jungle, hunger, thirst, the media, book deals, etc. and you have a complicated brew.; २७/२/०९, ८:३८ AM
William म्हणाले...: I saw her interview with Larry King after she was freed. She was very impressive. She had a sensitive, expressive face and spoke of her captivity with sadness and civility. One of her quotes stuck in my mind: "The things that happened in the jungle should stay in the jungle."....All the captives were subjected to enormous amounts of stress and deprivation. It's a fair guess that some of them did not behave well. Their bad behavior, however, reflects the barbarity of their captors and not their own lack of moral character......Here are some morals the left will never draw: John McCain and his fellow POW's were a bunch of off the chart terrific heroes. As captors, Marxists are pigs--far, far worse pigs than the prison guards at Attica or Gitmo or any of the other prisons where the blood from the bleeding hearts of liberals congeals and draws flies.; २७/२/०९, ९:१० AM
Jason (the commenter) म्हणाले...: Add in the other factors: guns, rapists, the Stockholm Syndrome, the jungle, hunger, thirst, the media, book deals, etc. and you have a complicated brew.

I agree, that's why it's odd to be unable to forgive the aide for having bad feelings towards Betancourt.

And the envy defense, that's the stuff of America's Next Top Model.; २७/२/०९, ९:१६ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: "Add in the other factors: guns, rapists, the Stockholm Syndrome, the jungle, hunger, thirst, the media, book deals, etc. and you have a complicated brew."

I would agree to that, just adding "political beliefs" and questioning the definition of Stockholm Syndrome. And the only media that commented on her relationship was a left leaning one, and they said, after interviewing her, the relationship was consensual. (Commondreams.org). I can understand taking offense at the vulgarity of my comment, but why Victoria's?!

It just seems like everybody is lining up taking predictable sides on something we actually have no knowledge about, so have fun, I'm going to work.; २७/२/०९, १०:३८ AM
Shanna म्हणाले...: And the only media that commented on her relationship was a left leaning one, and they said, after interviewing her, the relationship was consensual.

I think it's hard to say that anything is truly consensual when you are being held hostage for 5 years. I mean, if you were allowed to leave would you still be hanging out with the guy? Then maybe it's consensual. If she goes back to him, then maybe I'll buy that (but I'll still think she's probably messed up in the head).; २७/२/०९, १०:५९ AM
reader_iam म्हणाले...: I don’t want to attack her...

[but I really, I do].; २७/२/०९, ११:१२ AM
Revenant म्हणाले...: I hope we can celebrate courage and noble behavior without getting a salacious pleasure out of the much more common human frailty.

I might be missing something, but what was the noble behavior and courage? She got kidnapped because she ignored government warnings want went campaigning in FARC-controlled areas. After that her options were (a) living in captivity or (b) death. She chose (a). It seems to me that she behaved foolishly and ended up putting everyone through a lot of trouble as a result. But maybe I don't know the whole story.; २७/२/०९, ३:२८ PM
Beth म्हणाले...: Revenant,

I intended the comment to mean that when we can celebrate heroism, we should, but we shouldn't then set that as the bar for what we expect of people. I didn't mean to say there were any particularly noble or heroic people in this story.; २७/२/०९, ३:४० PM
Jum म्हणाले...: Well, true to Deranger form, the first three responses appear to be from lefties, who are once again somehow able to respond first in a libertarian/conservative post. I stand by my charge that many leftist/liberals subscribe to websites of their political opposites only to get e-mail notice of new posts so that they may taint and befoul a thread before any serious conservative/libertarian commenters can (Those who have jobs and and don't have an obsessive-compulsive need to leap to the first comment in a site they disagree with virtually 100% of the time)). This means such left/liberal multi-site first-commenters have an immense amount of time to cruise the web, ready to punce in an instant.

As to Maguro's comment ("Hardly surprising that people who were imprisoned together would start to get on each other's nerves. I'm sure lots of the inmates at Riker's Island don't particularly care for their cellmates either.") - did you not read the article? (Of course not - that would have slowed you down in making that first "anti-comment".) The basis of the author's complaint is that Ms. Betancourt, in order to ensure her personal security, eventually made common cause with the guerillas, and even went so far as to "J'accuse" the Americans of being CIA. Incredible. That could have been a death sentence. Calling it the equivalent of a falling out between criminals serving a prison sentence is insulting to the intellect as well as to the victims of Ms. Betancourt's craven and self-centered betrayals.

Great White Father - your unserious, swinish response is beneath contempt.; २८/२/०९, २:३७ AM
buck smith म्हणाले...: "Joe K Jr in cahoots with s Commie? Tell me it isn't so, Joe :)"

His grandad was in cahoots with the Nazis. It's a family tradition!; २८/२/०९, ७:०० AM
buck smith म्हणाले...: One other comment about FARC and the hostage rescue. The fight against FARC during Bush Admin was pretty successful and done with a small footprint and what passes for cheaply in DC. But it would have been a lot simpler to legalize the drug traffic and cut-off the money line to the FARC. To the extent that there is a global war against extremists, terrorists, criminal gangs and communist dead-enders, legalizing drug traffic is a kind of flanking maneuver that cuts across key enemy supply lines. At the same time it broadens the tax base, so it is one anti-dote to the tendency to try to extract more and more tax dollars from fewer and fewer people.; २८/२/०९, ७:१६ AM
Gene म्हणाले...: Victoria,

You can forgive others from being jealous about the attention she got, but not the friend who knew going in what she was like.

I read this as you criticizing the friend for envy, not Betancourt for proving to be less than her friend thought she was. Otherwise why would the friend need forgiving?

Your wording was a bit ambiguous.; २८/२/०९, २:१९ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Today someone sent me an email and told me it was ingrid betancourt, I believe it was her myself now. It was a video of a gang rape while she was in captivity, this wasnt something she wanted, she was terribly raped, i couldnt believe this was in my email nor how the hell it got on the internet but its disturbing and what they were doing to her was terrible and attrocious. That wasnt an affair, that was a rape.; २१/७/०९, ९:३८ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: Ingrid Betancourt is a bona fide CUNT. a farcing cunt to be exact.; ११/१/११, ९:५० PM