... Wright said that political opponents of Senator Obama were exploiting the fact that the style of prayer and preaching in black churches was different from European church traditions....As if the problems are all a matter of form and not content.
In questions and answers after his prepared remarks, Mr. Wright bristled when it was suggested that some of his past statements seemed unpatriotic. He served six years in the military, he declared, adding a jibe at the vice president, “How many years did Cheney serve?”That's not an answer, but a classroom-perfect example of 2 types of faulty argument. That he was in the military in the past doesn't give him some sort of lifetime patriotism insurance. And Cheney's military service is utterly irrelevant. I wonder how approvingly the National Press Club received these clever non-answers — that is, I wonder if they responded like journalists.
ADDED: Christopher Beam argues that Wright's current publicity tour is good for Obama. I'm not seeing it, but it's a good "what if you had to argue" argument.
AND: Here's Rush Limbaugh arguing that Wright is destroying Obama — intentionally, to serve his own ends. I think Wright is a man with a tremendous ego and very strong left-wing politics who has been lit afire by the criticism and sees the opportunity of a lifetime to advance his cause.
पोस्ट्स
९९ टिप्पण्या:
video via Huffingtonpost
"How dare you question my patriotism! I was in the Army!" - General Benedict Arnold, retired
A lefty using faulty argument techniques? Say it isn't so.
In the leftist world hating America is the highest form of patriotism. Of the hundreds of leftists I know America is never mentioned without cynicism and scorn. And that's just for openers. It goes downhill rapidly from there to the full bore hatred espoused by scumbags like Jeremiah Wright. Don't tell me Obama doesn't feel the same way. His phony love for this country is just more of the "ends justifies the means" the left always uses in their grab for power.
I wonder if they responded like journalists.
Yes, they responded like "journalists".
I wonder if they responded like journalists.
Of course not. Then they might be denied access.
Once a Marine, always a Marine.
Inspired by President John F. Kennedy's 1961 challenge to "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country," Wright gave up his student deferment, left college and joined the United States Marine Corps and became part of the 2nd Marine Division with the rank of private first class. In 1963, after two years of service, Wright then transferred to the United States Navy and entered the Corpsman School at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, where he graduated as valedictorian.[9] Having excelled in corpsman school, Wright was then trained as a cardiopulmonary technician at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland where he graduated as salutatorian.[9] Wright was assigned as part of the medical team charged with care of President Lyndon B. Johnson (see photo of Wright caring for Johnson after his 1966 surgery). Before leaving the position in 1967, the White House awarded Wright three letters of commendation." -- Wikipedia
That may not get one lifetime patriotism insurance, but it sure as hell entitles one to respect.
As if the problems are all a matter of form and not content.
As if all the complaints about Wright are sincerely based on content, and not on political expediency, as demonstrated by the fact that practically no one has bothered to engage in a good faith effort to actually determine what he has meant by his words by actually reading them all, and in context.
Bender--
I keep thinking about how he used to pulpit to defame the morals of an unmarried, single, professional woman, the Secretary of State, by calling her a 'skeeze' which is slang for slut or whore.
See ABC story here.
For a minister to use such language is unbearably painful.
Also, I noticed that he recently defended his "God d*mn" remarks with resort to Old not New Testament authority.
A little turning of the other cheek can go a long way. You don't have to be a churchgoer or minister to know that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
As if the problems are all a matter of form and not content.
Never having been to a Black church, I'll suggest that if routine excessive hyperbole are matters of course in preaching style, then yes it's a matter of form. But it sure doesn't look that way to me. But it's possible.
I really have no problem with his style of preaching. I don't think it's productive or useful, but hey, neither is $cientology.
My problem is that a Presidential Candidate who runs on the wisdom of his foresight re: Iraq somehow can't see how perceptions of the preaching at the church he attends might cause discomfort. I wonder who is advising him on this topic.
"Once a Marine, always a Marine."
Like Lee Harvey Oswald? Or Robert Garwood? How about Ollie North? Are you the type to respect him? How many of you Marines out there want to God damn Amerikkka?
Bearbee, THANKS!
I blogged my little brains out about the NAACP "spectacle" last night, but totally missed the National Press Club speech.
I can't wait to see this!
(In case I go missing, which I doubt, it's because I have an auntie visitin' from abroad)
A commenter on my blog touched on your point, Mort -- about preaching style.
He wondered if we should be even more disturbed by the crowds' reactions? I said no.
"Not only is crowd mentality at play, where people get into the moment, the happening, rather than echo his sentiments, but they are also praising his PERFORMANCE.
This is the thing with black pastors, I've finally realised.
The crowds are rapturous not just or only about what the preachermen have to say.
They appreciate the spectacle, the energy, the passion which they believe, I feel instinctively, is Christian conviction.
Now let's see how the NPC reacted...
Cheers,
Victoria
"practically no one has bothered to engage in a good faith effort to actually determine what he has meant by his words by actually reading them all, and in context."
Context??!! Puhleeze..
All the context you need right here, although I'm sure it won't mean a thing to a true believer like you.
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/34fedc25-b630-48e8-b2f4-326c5d9d5314
Just because you say serving doesn't give one extra points in America doesn't mean it's true.
Heck, I was a low-level grunt for 4 yrs and now I get lifetime VA heath care...so obviously someone cares enough in America to give me socialized medicine.
I'm not a fan of McSame, but do I respect his service?
Yes I do... he an other Americans that served allowed himself to be put in harm's way if necessary in order to defend our freedoms.
Does that give give these guys more credibility than Dick "Five Deferment" Cheney?
Come on, what a chick thing to say service doesn't matter.
I had his speech on when I was preparing to go to work, though I wasn't able to give it my full attention. However, I was surprised at the level of approval expressed by the audience (applause, verbal affirmations.) There were more than just journalists there, weren't there?
And I have been in Black churches many times, playing in the band. The only white person usually. I never heard the level of vitriol expressed by Wright, though the style of oratory is prevalent. In fact politics was rarely a topic in my experience.
Now let's see how the NPC reacted...
Well, I'm 35 seconds into the video, and not only did we get that cheap Cheney shot, but...
...and please tell me if I am going mental or what, did the Reverend (just before he saluted) do a little "Walk Like An Egyptian" gesture with both hands?
What the HELL was that about?
No, I'm sorry.
I've tried to factor in cultural, generational, heck even racial differences (which I deride) to explain and make sense of this guy.
But he's just a clown. Slap a kipper tie on the dude, and a big red bulbous nose. WTF.
Cheers,
Victoria
"Bill Clinton was riding dirty. He did us like he did Monica Lewinsky" - - (Jeremiah Wright).
That's just a great line. I don't think that it's something that should be said in church however.
practically no one has bothered to engage in a good faith effort to actually determine what he has meant by his words
Lets play a fun game. What is the context of this:
"Africans have a different meter, and Africans have a different tonality," he said. Europeans have seven tones, Africans have five. White people clap differently than black people. "Africans and African-Americans are right-brained, subject-oriented in their learning style," he said. "They have a different way of learning."
"Does that give give these guys more credibility than Dick "Five Deferment" Cheney?"
I would think that veterans of all people would be least likely to trot out the chickenhawk fallacy.
1) All kinds of people join the military for all kinds of reasons.
2) People change. See Benedict Arnold.
3) Other "patriots" who served their country:
-Timothy McVeigh - WIA US Army
-Bela Kuhn - Veteran Hungarian Army WW I
-Julius Rosenberg - Enlisted US Army August 1940
Stalin was called up for service in the Tsar's Army and would have been a Russian WW I vet had he passed the Physical. (But don't question his patriotism!).
Non-sequiturs are a mandatory part of our media-driven culture. But the larger point remains: where is the proof that Wright is unpatriotic?
Political opponents of Obama don't bother with actual evidence, just as they didn't bother with actual evidence of Saddam's WMDs or ties to Al Qaida.
I wonder, how many black people comment at this blog?
Obviously, it's fine to have an opinion on Wright, but you should also understand that there are Americans who agree with what he says. To dismiss his words outright is to admit, a priori, that there can be no reconciliation between races in America.
That may not get one lifetime patriotism insurance, but it sure as hell entitles one to respect.
Just as respect can be earned, it can be lost. Wright lost it.
Oh wait, I forgot: Wright obviously is McVeigh, Arnold and Oliver North. He's not wearing a flag lapel pin.
Case closed.
To dismiss his words outright is to admit, a priori, that there can be no reconciliation between races in America.
Of course there can be reconciliation. He and the people who agree with him can change their views.
It isn't like black people are genetically predisposed to hate America and resent whites. For the most part those who do, do so because that's how they were taught to think. The solution to that problem is education -- not trying to "understand" their bigotry.
To dismiss his words outright is to admit, a priori, that there can be no reconciliation between races in America.
Not when blacks follow race-mongerers like Wright. No wonder they always look pissed off.
Political opponents of Obama don't bother with actual evidence,
Wright apologists are always insisting he's been taken out of context, but seldom offer the context. When they try, it quickly becomes embarassing.
just as they didn't bother with actual evidence of Saddam's WMDs or ties to Al Qaida.
[The blog groans. Please don't go there, or Fen will post another 15-pager on Saddam's WMD programs and ties to Al Queda]
Kevin, play my game - whats the context:
"Africans have a different meter, and Africans have a different tonality," he said. Europeans have seven tones, Africans have five. White people clap differently than black people. "Africans and African-Americans are right-brained, subject-oriented in their learning style," he said. "They have a different way of learning."
I wonder, how many black people comment at this blog?
Why does this matter?
Obviously, it's fine to have an opinion on Wright, but you should also understand that there are Americans who agree with what he says. To dismiss his words outright is to admit, a priori, that there can be no reconciliation between races in America.
OK. I admit it. As long as this is his attitude, I'm not the least bit interested in reconciliation. Especially since neither I nor any of my ancestors have done anything that needs to be reconciled.
Asking for more "context" Kevin:
"... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal."
Or will you shed more crocodile tears about reconciliation?
Shan,
So you think as long as SOMEONE believes what the KLAN preaches, then it has merit and to denounce it proves we can never have reconciliation?
Idiots, racists and demagogues say and believe all kinds of nonsense. Wright (being all three), doesn't need to be understood, he needs to be denounced, distanced and have his ideas mocked openly.
I don't think Wright complaining that Cheney was too chicken to go to war is a faulty argument. It doesn't give Wright a lifetime pass, but those quick to criticize Wright for his "lack of patriotism," should consider that President Bush and Vice President Cheney leave a lot to be desired given their efforts to evade military service.
Wright is not helping Obama, and Wright's speech last night wasn't very good (it was annoying with the needless repetition), and he shouldn't have painted the picture of black and white people as being black and white. Not all blacks are right brained and vice versa.
[Wright's military service] may not get one lifetime patriotism insurance, but it sure as hell entitles one to respect.
Thats one of the dumber arguments used by Obama apologists.
"When they're not bombing jewish kids, the PLO builds hospitals and schools...that sure as hell entitles them to respect"
"where is the proof that Wright is unpatriotic?"
"God damn America."
Looks a tad anti-American to me, but I'm kind of funny about literally interpreting things people say. I suppose he may have been expressing pro-American sentiments and I just missed it.
"President Bush and Vice President Cheney leave a lot to be desired given their efforts to evade military service."
Next stop, Starship Troopers. And BTW, Bush served. In a rather dangerous capacity. Much more dangerous, in fact, than being a corpsman who never came near combat. At least Wright had the sense not to call Bush a chickenhawk as well.
Next stop, Starship Troopers
Military service a prereq to be considered a citizen. I'd go there. But the weasels playing the chickenhawk card never would. Just another exmaple that The Left Doesn't Really Beleive In The Things They Lecture Us About
Listening to Obama fans defend Wright has reminded me of all the "feminists" who tried to whitewash Clinton's sexual harassment in the workplace. I'm not sure which group is worse, or more hypocritical.
The religion of the "post-racial" candidate says: Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy.
That reminds me, I need to PMCS my M16A2.
When I've heard Wright's military service mentioned it has always been with respect.
There is no reason (that I've heard) to disrespect his service.
What his service is, is irrelevant to the question of his attitudes toward this country. As is Cheney's service or lack of service. Neither are an answer to the question he was asked.
As for racial reconciliation... when someone can graduate from an Ivy League school and live in a huge house and be employed for well over six figures and *still* live a life of grievance... well, I'd say we've got a problem that isn't going to go away any time soon.
practically no one has bothered to engage in a good faith effort to actually determine what he has meant by his words
I'd be really interested to hear the context that justifies saying "white people invented AIDS to kill people of color" or "US of KKKA."
No doubt there's a perfectly good context in which to understand Wright's honoring of racist and anti-semite Farrakhan with a lifetime achievement award, too.
Obviously, it's fine to have an opinion on Wright, but you should also understand that there are Americans who agree with what he says.
Cartman: Oh really, well did you know that over 1/4th of the people in America think that AIDS was a Government conspiracy? Are you saying that 1/4th of Americans are retards?
Kyle: Yes, I am saying that 1/4th of Americans are retards.
Stan: At least 1/4th.
Kyle: Let's take a test sample. There's 4 of us, you're a retard. That's 1/4th
Bush served.
True. But, as dangerous as flying fighter jets was and is, in the Vietnam era Guard W. had a tiny chance of seeing combat, unless he volunteered for active duty of course, which he did not. Further, during the late 60's getting into the Air Guard was extremely difficult for those who lacked political or other connections.
On the other hand, a huge chunk if not the majority of those in the service during the Vietnam era were not in combat groups. Friends of mine were variously a clerk-typist on a base in Mississippi, a computer technician in Athens, Greece, and a journalist on an aircraft carrier off Vietnam. My friend the Air Guardie activated himself and was sent to England and Germany. My friend the Marine Reservist helped build a barracks every summer and then tear it down for the next group to build. Only my friend who volunteered for the Marines at age 17 saw combat.
But, as dangerous as flying fighter jets was and is, in the Vietnam era Guard W. had a tiny chance of seeing combat, unless he volunteered for active duty of course, which he did not
Actually he did and was refused.
And the ANG flew 40,000+ combat sorties over Nam.
As a former Marine, your line of argument reminds me of the chest-thumpers who complained about how the logistics clerks behind the FEBA were slackers... while we ate chow and uploaded our ammo.
BTW, does this mean you won't support "draft-dodgers" like Obama and Clinton?
I will give Wright the respect he deserves for serving his country. But can we agree that military service is not a badge which protects one from criticism?
Wright's service is pretty much irrelevant to the issue.
Wright is another in a long line of people who were, I would assume, influenced unduly by the "Portland Baseline Essays". Those essays, for those who are unfamiliar with them, were a series of essays that became quite popular with orators such as Wright. They fit right in line with his rather novel interpretation of brain development in Africa and Northern Europe.
Wright knows his audience, and panders to it. Quite remarkable, really…
Wright just threw Obama under the bus because he doesn't want him to be nominated. This would prove to his believers that "whitey" predictably turned it's collective back on Obama.
His antics are racist and his black salvation show reminds me of The Jefferson's "Movin' On Up Tour - You finally Got A Piece Of The Pie!"
Michelle is no "Weezy!"
It doesn't give Wright a lifetime pass, but those quick to criticize Wright for his "lack of patriotism," should consider that President Bush and Vice President Cheney leave a lot to be desired given their efforts to evade military service.
I guess I'll have to lead you through this by hand:
(1): Serving in the Armed Forces doesn't automatically make you patriotic.
(2): Not serving in the Armed Forces doesn't automatically make you unpatriotic.
(3): Saying that America deserved 9/11 does automatically prove that you are both unpatriotic and anti-American.
Yeah, yeah, Bush and Cheney didn't fight in 'Nam, blah blah yawn. Who gives a shit? The simple fact of the matter is that they don't hate America and Americans, and Wright does.
The event was at the NPC, but as I understand it, the majority of the crowd was invited by Wright, not working press.
I think this victory tour is going to sink Obama.
You should start a thread on Wright's NAACP speach where he claims that white people and black people are genetically different and think differently Right brain/left brain folks. which is why blacks speak the way they do, etc. Racist Speach clearly.
another line today thank is gonna kill him was something like: "I'm a pastor, he's a politican. He's gotta say what he's gotta say to get elected."
as somebody elsewhere said:
Obama and Wright are doing doing for race relations, what Clinton did for Feminism
Fen said...
BTW, does this mean you won't support "draft-dodgers" like Obama and Clinton?
President Clinton was certainly a draft dodger, but Obama was under 18 when the draft was ended.
In his sophomore year, X was convinced that it was only a matter of time until the United States would be at war with Nazi Germany. He decided to leave Brown University to join the United States Navy. X appreciated the order and discipline of the navy, and in 1940 he attended flight schools in Massachusetts and Florida. After getting his flight wings, he was shipped to Norfolk, Virginia. While in transit aboard USS Pastores, X had to put down a race riot between white southerners and African Americans who were placed in the same sleeping quarters. The solution X and the other officers used to stop the rioting was to separate the two groups. Due to a coin toss, X ended up leading the black sailors while another officer took charge of the white southerners.
After his marriage, X studied at the navy's aerial photography school in Florida. Upon completing his training, he served in the Pacific. His most notable action was the coordinating of air support in the retaking of Guam.
Pretty outstanding person, I'd say.
Deserving of respect.
Mr. "X" was George Lincoln Rockwell.
Respect can be lost as well as won.
Not as easily perhaps; but still.
"True. But, as dangerous as flying fighter jets was and is, in the Vietnam era Guard W. had a tiny chance of seeing combat, unless he volunteered for active duty of course, which he did not. Further, during the late 60's getting into the Air Guard was extremely difficult for those who lacked political or other connections."
BS. Bush volunteered to fly in Viet Nam but was refused until he had more flight hours. By the time he had qualified they were being phased out. He flew 953 hrs in one of the most dangerous airplanes. The death rate amongst pilots in training with the F103 was comparable to soldiers deployed to Viet Nam. He didn't need strings pulled to get in the Guard to fly those dangerous planes. People were trying to get in the NG to save their asses, not to crash and burn in F103s.
More lefty bullshit. Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth.
"BTW, does this mean you won't support "draft-dodgers" like Obama and Clinton?"
President Clinton was certainly a draft dodger, but Obama was under 18 when the draft was ended.
I know. I'm borrowing the lose definition the Left uses to damn Bush as one. Hence the scare quotes.
And its funny how the chickenhawk meme died out the moment the Left chose two candidates with zero military experience.
There's nothing wrong with pointing out what's wrong with America; most people do that all the time on issues big and small. The big problem with Rev. Wright is that he speaks as if nothing--absolutely nothing--is RIGHT with America.
I'm borrowing the lose definition the Left uses to damn Bush as one. Hence the scare quotes.
He still would have had to register. I had to do that at least once.
I'd be really interested to hear the context that justifies saying "white people invented AIDS to kill people of color" or "US of KKKA."
You won't. The Obama apologists who insist we misunderstood the context have fled.
If a patriot can say, "God Bless America" (for the good that she has done and will yet do); can a patriot also not look clearly at our history and also say, "God Damn America"-- for the wrongs we have committed?
and still be a patriot? God Bless America for ending slavery...God damn America for segregation? Do we all really have to be jingos?
Can a chinese citizen be patriotic about rising levels of education and wealth, but still be a critic of his own governments treatment of Tibet? It's not all black and white...
The event was at the NPC, but as I understand it, the majority of the crowd was invited by Wright, not working press
Reverend Wright's Re-emergence Could Spell Trouble for Obama Campaign
In a ballroom packed with a largely black audience of church leaders in town for a conference, as well as more than two dozen television cameras and scores of reporters who watched three and four deep from the press balconies,...
"can a patriot also not look clearly at our history and also say, "God Damn America"-- for the wrongs we have committed?"
Perhaps. But this is not the only issue wherein Wright looks like a crackpot (or worse). It's like the guy ran through the crackpot forest and hit every tree.
On another note, it is probably pretty insane to believe that the Govt. created AIDS to decimate minority populations.
But from the perspective of a black man, did the government not conduct experiments on black servicemen as little as 50 years ago with venereal diseases? Is the U.S. Government capable of that?
clearly it was. Why can't everyone love America as much as white people? Ask Japanese americans and blacks...and native americans.
America, like democracy, is the worst country and form of government on Earth....except for all the others of course.
Read an article that explains how the psychological theory of “cross-race recognition deficit” may be exacerbating the indelible linkage of Jeremiah Wright’s views to Barack Obama…here:
www.thoughttheater.com
Ever heard of the 442nd Combat Team? All-Japanese unit from WWII?
They were recruited DIRECTLY FROM INTERNMENT CAMPS.
Those guys could make the distinction between a generally good nation doing some bad things and a bad nation threatening the world. I don't think you'd hear any of them say "God damn America," and they saw more oppression in those camps than Wright could dream of.
If a patriot can say, "God Bless America" (for the good that she has done and will yet do); can a patriot also not look clearly at our history and also say, "God Damn America"-- for the wrongs we have committed?
Well some would say we right the wrongs, (ending slavery, segregation, civil rights act) rather than condemn our nation.
Seriously, for someone who believes this is a racist nation out to oppress all the black people, he has certainly done quite well for himself. Clearly his congregation doesn't notice that disconnect.
can a patriot also not look clearly at our history and also say, "God Damn America"-- for the wrongs we have committed?
Wright makes the common mistake of judging the past by today's standards. Cultures EVOLVE. There was a time when our society approved of taking land from "savages" and exterminating them. There was a time when our society approved of using "sub-humans" for forced labor. We grew up.
And we're still evolving. Today, our society approves of the mass murder of millions because they are "non-human". Generations from now, our more evolved descendents will look back and ask how Great-Grandma could ever support the atoricty of abortion on demand. The same way we flinch at the reality that there were "white's only" bathrooms. And so it goes.
Following Wright's logic, I'm sure I could find countless sins in Africa's history that "justify" the enslavement of its people. But that would just be more "chickens coming home to roost" bullhit.
and also say, "God Damn America"--
He didn't just say it. This is a priest, in his own temple, invoking God to curse the nation. Thats a significant difference that non-religious folk overlook.
But from the perspective of a black man, did the government not conduct experiments on black servicemen as little as 50 years ago with venereal diseases? Is the U.S. Government capable of that?
Well from the perspective of more than a few American soldiers, a lot of them died and suffered horribly from A-bomb tests in the 1950s too.
As for AIDs, I wonder of Wright has bothered to tell his congregation that the biggest risk group for AIDs is gay men? Or would that ruin his racist theory?
Seems to me an intelligent member of his congregation would look at Wright's wealthy lifestyle and see that his 'whitey keeping the brothers down' speil doesn't pass the smell test.
unless he volunteered for active duty of course, which he did not
Actually he did and was refused.
First I've heard of this. Do you have a citation?
And the ANG flew 40,000+ combat sorties over Nam.
Either volunteers or units that were activated before LBJ et al. decided that Guard units would not be sent into combat, for the first war since the formation of the Guard.
"If a patriot can say, "God Bless America" (for the good that she has done and will yet do); can a patriot also not look clearly at our history and also say, "God Damn America"-- for the wrongs we have committed?"
I suppose, though a "patriot" would generally be able to criticize some past wrong he believes his country had committed without resorting to damning it. Especially a purported minister of the Gospel.
"God Bless America for ending slavery...God damn America for segregation?"
How long does this "damning" process have to continue? How many generations have to come and go before this "sin of the fathers" is expiated? This is my question to the permanently aggrieved. What sacrifice is necessary, what spilling of blood, what sackcloth-and-ashes is needed before the damning will stop and people will get on with their lives? Of course I already know the answer: none. Nothing can be done, generally short of the overthrow of capitalism and American republican government in favor of the Worker's State. The Reverend-Wright-type of professional angry demagogue doesn't want the "equality" they already have. They want retribution. While their own communities crumble into dust due to their anger, bitterness and neglect, they keep fanning the flames that they hope will eventually consume their "enemies", apparently unconcerned that they might be caught in the fire too. It happened to the ugly, angry white demagogues in the segregated American South as surely as it will happen to Wright, Farrakhan and their ilk.
"Can a chinese citizen be patriotic about rising levels of education and wealth, but still be a critic of his own governments treatment of Tibet? It's not all black and white..."
Ha. You don't understand China. You see, almost every other country in the world is full of fierce nationalists of the type that inhabit the dark "flyover state" nightmares of American liberals. We're fairly unique in having a significant proportion of our population that's "ashamed" and "embarrassed" of their country, and in part this is because we don't really have a unified racial and cultural past as does China or France or Germany (fictional or otherwise). Our nationalism is, at its best, a quiet pride in an ideal not in a race or a coherent cultural identity. I'm not a "flag-waving" type of person, but I think that our government (with some notable and terrible exceptions) was a pretty good idea in its conception. I'm not completely happy with the way that it has evolved, and I think that there's much that could be changed (or better yet, done away with) about the Federal government. But I remain happy overall because I think that we've still got the capacity to change, as provided for in our idealistic founding documents. When we've lost that capacity, then perhaps a patriot could rationally shout "God Damn America!" at what we've become. But that's not why Wright was shouting his curse, and any rational person should be able to see that.
"for the first war since the formation of the Guard."
If you mean the Air National Guard, they had units that fought in Korea. If you mean National Guard, depending upon how you define what constitutes the Guard, it has existed (and fought in our wars) for nearly a hundred years (longer than that if you are liberal in defining what constitutes the Guard).
Never mind. I misread your statement. I think your point was that the Guard was deemed not capable to fight in a war for the first time in its existence.
"Well from the perspective of more than a few American soldiers, a lot of them died and suffered horribly from A-bomb tests in the 1950s too."
Last year I watched my uncle, to whom I was very close, die horribly of lung cancer most probably the result of a childhood spent in the fallout of 130 terajoule atomic bomb. Do I say GOD DAMN AMERICA for that hideous sin against its citizens? No. My ancestors were the target of numerous attempted genocides carried out by Federal agents. Do I say GOD DAMN AMERICA for that? No. Do I criticize and condemn those terrible wrongs? Of course.
There's a difference between criticism and damning, especially if you're a purported minister of the Gospel.
"Actually he did and was refused."
First I've heard of this. Do you have a citation?
via Instapundit that links to Newsweek:
"The standard rap against Bush is that he was ducking combat by joining the Guard. Actually, the Texas Air Guard had a program called Palace Alert that allowed pilots to volunteer for flight time in Vietnam. Three of Bush's fellow pilots�Udell, Woodfin and Fred Bradley�recalled to NEWSWEEK that Bush inquired with the base commander about signing up for Palace Alert. He was told no; he had too few flying hours at the time and his plane, the F-102, was by then deemed obsolete for air combat."
I know facts are pointless in this discussion but I had a boss who flew F102s (the same plane that Bush flew). He hated the plane but as an USAF Academy grad, he flew what he was told to fly.
From:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml
the F-102 was still far more dangerous to fly than today's combat aircraft. Compared to the F-102's lifetime accident rate of 13.69, today's planes generally average around 4 mishaps per 100,000 hours. For example, compare the F-16 at 4.14, the F-15 at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.
The very flawed, dangerous, and underpowered F-102 was just supposed to be an interim solution, replaced in full rapidly by the F-106.
Of course, air guard units got stuck with them long after they should have been scrapped.
fls, from one of the secondary links provided by Instapundit above:
"...the enemy did sometimes show up, he just didn't fire. My best friend from college was an Air Force fighter pilot in the early 1980s, and regularly shared with me the "Kodak moments" that American fighter pilots on interception patrols took of Soviet Bear bombers, flying out of Cuba. They'd probe, we'd scramble; the pilots made a great game of seeing how close they could get to the bad guys without causing a crash or an international incident. (Snapshots in which you could see the Soviet pilot's oxygen-masked face were quite common; hand gestures, ranging from friendly waves to less polite ones, were also easily visible.)
People joke about the TANG protecting Texas from attack by Mexico. Har-har, very funny. In fact, the TANG pilots flying out of Ellington Field were protecting the most concentrated petrochemical storage and processing facilities in the world along the Houston Ship Channel -- a strategic target going back to World War II, when the Nazi subs hunted shipping off the Texas coast."
How's this for a conspiracy theory?
Wright is part of a super-secret KKK kabal. His mission is to get the black underclass to reject any suggestion that stable families and education will improve their plight. His purpose is to get the underclass to believe that the success of any such solutions will be thwarted by white society. By introducing AIDs, drugs and any other pernicious plague they can come up with into the inner city, whites guarantee that the underclass can never improve its lot.
Sowing the seeds of depression, hopelessness and misplaced anger, Wright and his KKK cohorts' ultimate goal is to see the black underclass self-destruct.
If a patriot can say, "God Bless America" (for the good that she has done and will yet do); can a patriot also not look clearly at our history and also say, "God Damn America"-- for the wrongs we have committed?
No.
A patriot is a person who loves his country. When someone or something you love does something bad, you try to change them. You don't insult them and tell them to go to hell.
There's a difference between criticism and damning, especially if you're a purported minister of the Gospel.
Palladian
Well said. To be honest, I see Wright being a Reverend as much as Sharpton or Jackson are 'Reverends'. I've been a Catholic all my life and in my 40 years of going to Church, I can honestly say I never heard a Father or Monsignor say anything closely resembling "And Bill Clinton did us like he did Monica' while gyrating his hips for effect.
While I am no expert on the Scriptures, I'm straining to find out how demonstrating a face-fu**ing at the pulpit corresponds to any Gospel sermon.
F102 is correct, not F103 which I mistakenly posted above.
The XF-103 would have been an insane plane.
A patriot is a person who loves his country. When someone or something you love does something bad, you try to change them. You don't insult them and tell them to go to hell.
What -- you've never heard of tough love?
I very sincerely doubt there's a person in this commentariat who appreciates and loves this old land more than I. Could I see myself in a fit of exasperation damning something about the USA? Yes.
What -- you've never heard of tough love?
I have but then again I scold my daughter for misbehaving not asking God to damn her.
Could I see myself in a fit of exasperation damning something about the USA? Yes.
I would say then that Wright could use some exasperation management if that is the case.
Of all his flaws, perhaps Rev. Wright's worst is his complete, and (dare I say it) very un-Christian, lack of humility.
What constitutes service to one's nation? With some people getting an education is preparation to provide greater service later on. If the only thing that counts is having bullets whizzing past you, then a lot of former soldiers, sailors and marines don't count. Considering the hostility they've had to face, I'm willing to grant Cheney full credit for the years he served as Secretary of Defense and Vice-president and Bush for his service as President, when neither one really wanted the job very badly.
There are more ways than one to serve your country and be patriotic. When I heard Wright make that snotty remark, all his credibility went down the drain.
He seemed to make much of his acting in a pastoral capacity, but I've never understood how pastors in black churches get away with being campaign surrogates for Democratic candidates. They nearly all go political, and nobody ever suggests that that should affect their tax exempt status.
I kept wanting someone to ask him about Jesus' teaching, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's"
Wright sounds like a jerk, and a rabble 'rouser rather than a pastor, interested in keeping contention and strife over old grievances going rather than teaching the gospel of peace.
What -- you've never heard of tough love?
Is that sarcasm? Because tough love means not compromising or enabling the wrongdoer -- it doesn't mean hurling insults and expressing hatred.
Your wife keeps going over the family budget because she likes shopping too much. Do you (a) cancel the reservations the two of you made for a weekend getaway and explain "we can't afford it because of your shopping" or (b) call her a stupid cunt in front of a room full of people?
This is not a difficult question to answer.
And Madison, the guy's a professional public speaker. You can't seriously believe he keeps saying hateful things to large audiences because of momentary bursts of frustration.
Do you know why beating Rodney King beating shocked America? Not because it was brutal, though it was, but because white America rarely ever saw that face of the State.
Do you think, also, that Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima (sodimized with a broomstick by the NYPD) are the only crimes that happen, or the only crimes that get caught?
If white college kids got busted for drugs, or shot pulling out their wallets, or sodamized with wooden poles as much as black men did, then I think more people would say some harsh things.
I love how so many say, "well, racism was 50 years ago", or "Not I nor any of my family has anything to do with segregation."
(part of post defending my love of the Constitution and America in general deleted out of having nothing to prove)
But then again...the State didn't act so well with Randy Weaver...or the Branch Davidians, nor the recent mormon sect.
The lesson for all of you is don't confuse the founding principles with the State, I'm a far, far, cry from a midwestern militia nut (though I think I'm channeling the spirit of one atm--how many ghosts does Althouse have?)
The lesson is for you all, don't be so quick to defend the state in the name of our founding principles, the founding principals were designed to fight the very idea of what States become.
If white college kids got busted for drugs, or shot pulling out their wallets, or sodamized with wooden poles as much as black men did, then I think more people would say some harsh things.
The victims of police brutality are virtually all men. Is this evidence that American society is anti-male? That police are are bigoted against men? That we have a continuing problem with anti-male sexism?
Or could it be -- and this is just a suggestion -- that criminals are, themselves, overwhelmingly men? That police worry a lot more about being hurt or killed by a man than they do a woman? That police spend their days dealing with male criminals?
Black men commit the lion's share of crime in America -- half the murders and similar percentages of the rapes and burglaries. White college students do not. Black people encounter police brutality more often than whites do not because police are racist (the black cops are brutal too), but because a policeman's job brings him into adversarial contact with black men a hell of a lot more often than it brings him into adversarial contact with white college students. Sometimes the police go over the top subduing a criminal (e.g., Rodney King). Sometimes they victimize a completely innocent person because they wrongly believe him to be a criminal. But none of this is evidence of racism; it is evidence merely of the inherent dangers of police power.
wow, rev.
Blacks do not have higher rates of drug use, what they have revenent, is higher levels of enforcement.
When was the last no-knock raid at the local state college in your area? What happens when college kids smoke pot in their dorms?
The state tried to enforce drug laws on the (white) majority once before, and for their effort they got Prohibition repealed.
Blacks don't have the power to get the laws repealed and middle class whites (poor whites get busted with the poor blacks) while I wouldn't say "get charged" but that the law doesn't go looking for them.
I have a lengthy response, but its my turn to go force drugs down my black neighbor's throat.
/back later
Ah hell, I ran out of HIV infected needles. Anyone have spares left over from the Fed's last shipment?
Blacks do not have higher rates of drug use, what they have revenent, is higher levels of enforcement.
I don't know if they have higher levels of drug use or not. They do, however, have higher levels of drug dealing, which is what police focus on.
When was the last no-knock raid at the local state college in your area?
Police don't stage no-knock raids looking for drug users, silly.
Blacks don't have the power to get the laws repealed and middle class whites (poor whites get busted with the poor blacks)
Which refutes your claim that this is about race.
Here Fen. Let me.
Blacks do not have higher rates of drug use, what they have revenent, is higher levels of enforcement
Bullshit.
Blacks do not have higher rates of drug use, what they have revenent, is higher levels of enforcement.
And why would there be higher rates of "enforcement" in predominantly-minority communities? It wouldn't be because the crime rate is higher? According to your logic, encforcement causes crime.
When was the last no-knock raid at the local state college in your area?
Probably the last time the police had reason to believe someone was dealing drugs out of his dorm room. I hear it happens with white folks who run meth labs.
What happens when college kids smoke pot in their dorms?
They get high, I suppose. As has been pointed out, the police are interested in serious crime; drug dealing is more serious than drug using. What happens when somebody runs a red light? Nothing. What happens when somebody runs a red light and kills a pedestrian? The cops show up.
The state tried to enforce drug laws on the (white) majority once before, and for their effort they got Prohibition repealed.
I'm pretty sure it was the states who tried Prohibition and the same states which repealed it -- which at that time, meant white people in both cases. Or are you suggesting some alternate history in which the NAACP instituted Prohibition and whites overturned it?
Blacks don't have the power to get the laws repealed and middle class whites (poor whites get busted with the poor blacks) while I wouldn't say "get charged" but that the law doesn't go looking for them.
President Clinton agreed with an overwhelming majority in Congress not to change the sentencing guidelines for crack in 1995.
"... crack is more addictive than powder cocaine; it accounts for more emergency room visits; it is most popular among juveniles; it has a greater likelihood of being associated with violence; and crack dealers have more extensive criminal records than other drug dealers and tend to use young people to distribute the drug at a greater rate. In short, the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates significant distinctions between crack and powder cocaine.
"On June 22, 1995, the Judiciary Committee's Crime Subcommittee heard compelling testimony from law enforcement leaders of the District of Columbia, including the police chief, the U.S. Attorney, and the chief judge about the effects of crack cocaine on the nation's capital. They warned Congress, in unmistakable terms, not to lower crack penalties to those of powder cocaine offenses, because of the more destructive nature of the crack market."
That testimony about the more severe effects of crack and concern for the communities destroyed by it is just a cover for racism! There can't be any other explanation!
Wright made a comment apparently that even journalists were applauding him today.
Sick.
Blacks don't have the power to get the laws repealed
I don't hear any great clamor from the community to get them repealed. The implication of what you're saying is that blacks want to legalize drugs and Whitey is keeping them down.
I'm pretty sure the demographics don't roll that way.
and middle class whites (poor whites get busted with the poor blacks) while I wouldn't say "get charged" but that the law doesn't go looking for them.
Probably because it's not the drug use per se but the associated crime that attracts the attention. Middle-class whites aren't carjacking or mugging or whatever to get their fix.
I don't really mean it as a justification, mind you. I think the whole thing is a huge waste of time and money, a social tragedy, and a gross over-reach of government powers. I see it more as economics than racism, though.
Shan wrote:
Obviously, it's fine to have an opinion on Wright, but you should also understand that there are Americans who agree with what he says. To dismiss his words outright is to admit, a priori, that there can be no reconciliation between races in America.
See, this is what kills me.
That anyone who speaks about the US' very real problems is automatically validated.
No.
People have to learn to separate the loonies from the ones who raise logical points.
This is the same painful attitude that allows folks who dislike Bush, religion, capitalism, who doubt Al-Qaeda were behind 9/11, to believe in inane garbage like, "Zeitgeist".
For goodness sakes', can't you see that this guy is subsumed by hatred? To his country, to whites, to Jews, on and on.
Find someone who you agree with but who has legitimate gripes, not deep-seated neuroses.
Cheers,
Victoria
Victoria,
They can't. It might imply something negative about Obama's judgment.
That's really all this amounts to. The media overlooks guys like Wright--you'll hear often about the religious right but not so often about the religious left--but Obama's forced their hand.
Since few are buying the "he didn't inhale" argument, they have to go with "it was just a homemade tobacco cigarette".
Stay tuned for next week's drama, when our gentle pastor shouts "Death to America!" from the pulpit.
Paul -
As opposed to your blind love for this country? I wouldn't call Obama's love for this country 'phony'; he rightly questions many of this country's institutions.
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