Althouse: "If somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell them what to do with the pole; that’s what we’d do."

१८ जानेवारी, २००८

"If somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell them what to do with the pole; that’s what we’d do."

Mike Huckabee, working the South Carolina flag issue.

५४ टिप्पण्या:

Meade म्हणाले...: Mighty Christian of you, Mike.; १८/१/०८, ७:५५ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: It's a race to the bottom.; १८/१/०८, ८:०० AM
Meade म्हणाले...: ... as in "Christian Identity."; १८/१/०८, ८:०१ AM
Joaquin म्हणाले...: More cute one-liners from The Huck.
Cute, but zero substance. *YAWN*; १८/१/०८, ८:०३ AM
Astronaut Mike Dexter म्हणाले...: God, the more this guy opens his mouth, the more I just want him to go away. And I'm a lifelong Southerner who's never lived anywhere north of Lynchburg, Virginia.

Is it just me or does it seem like he'd be happier as the designated one-liner writer in the White House speechwriting department than as the actual president?; १८/१/०८, ८:०९ AM
AllenS म्हणाले...: Huckabyebye.

Off topic: There is something wrong with the Letterman tape, causing my computer to lock up. Just like last time.; १८/१/०८, ८:०९ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I fail to understand what business it is of the President (or Presidential candidate) or the federal government whether South Carolina or Georgia flies the Stars and Bars. I'm getting fairly sick of all this pandering.; १८/१/०८, ८:०९ AM
rhhardin म्हणाले...: It's a Polish joke.; १८/१/०८, ८:१० AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: we’d tell them what to do with the pole

Hire strippers to work it?; १८/१/०८, ८:१३ AM
George M. Spencer म्हणाले...: What Doug (above) said.

Shame on Huckabee. He is lower than gully dirt.; १८/१/०८, ८:२० AM
TWM म्हणाले...: Please, please, please, don't let this nut get the GOP nomination.; १८/१/०८, ८:३४ AM
George M. Spencer म्हणाले...: I have to add--for those of you who think the South is stuck in 1858--my elementary school daughter is excited about her class presentation...

She is going to be reciting part of the poem "Lord...Why Did You Make Me Black?"

The role of God in the poem is being played by a black girl.; १८/१/०८, ८:३५ AM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: fascinating. I'm not a southerner( born Chico CA), though I live in Northern VA now.

I don't think that the stars and bars should be flown over the state house, but I see no problem at a Confederate battle monument or graveyward.

That's my military bias leaking through, not racism. There is a difference. That is basicly what McCain said in 1980 and now has backed away from.

Huck is a Yokel; १८/१/०८, ८:४० AM
Roger J. म्हणाले...: I second what many other GOP folks have said--if the republicans nominate the Huck, they will have recreated a Huey Long with religious streak. And paraphrasing Ronaldus Maximus: the republican party will have left me forever. (although they did head out the door with their egregious control of the house, starting with the government shut down and culminating with their most recent defense of pork).; १८/१/०८, ८:५७ AM
Peter V. Bella म्हणाले...: Huckabee is the Ernest T. Bass of the Republican Party.; १८/१/०८, ८:५८ AM
hdhouse म्हणाले...: My parents retired to Strom Thurmond's area in South Carolina - incidentally one town there being officially the last to desegratate the high schools (1974..little after brown v. board lol). Anyway a guy who was running for mayor said the same thing in 1988 when the justic department arrived to take a look at the "at large" election process (60:40 w/b but never a black elected in the history of the town). he said "it sticks in my craw that washington would come down here and force their views on us" (his exact words unfortunately). His view had wide popular support on a number of levels.

I'm not saying SC is a backwater for this kind of stuff but Huckleberry is speaking a language that resonates with perhaps enough that his showing won't be reflective of what the rest of us are beginning to think of him.; १८/१/०८, ९:०५ AM
Paddy O म्हणाले...: "If somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell them what to do with the pole; that’s what we’d do."

They already did, and already have, and replaced it with the stars and stripes.

Huckabee's only value system is derived by what the people in front of him want to hear. And a lot of people only hear what's right in front of them, making for a very sad spectacle.; १८/१/०८, ९:१७ AM
Elliott A म्हणाले...: While the PC police have effectively removed the last vestiges of Southern Civil War Pride from the public view, the feelings and memories of many in the South are both deep and long. If you move past the rhetoric and history written by the winners, the southerners viewed the events of that time this way:

The northern states were using their economic and legislative leverage to retard economic and industrial development.

Their subsequent seccession which they believed to be allowable under the constitution was met with a military response. Relevant here was the origination of hostilities in South Carolina. Also of historical interest is that the New York delegation to the Constitutional Convention would not ratify without an assurance that seccession was permitted.

At the end of the war, the South, particularly South Carolins and Georgia was burned to the ground with the usual rape, pillage, murder and plunder that accompanied winning armies before our era of enlightened warfare.

The Stars and Bars, was the Confederate Battle Flag. The PC machine has turned it into a symbol of racial hatred and slavery. To the people in South Carolina, it is a reminder of a holocaust of sorts. As world Judaism (I am Jewish) attaches "Never Forget" to the Holocaust, the Stars and Bars are the reminder to southerners of the brutal war, its aftermath of occupation and reconstruction, and the disdain in which they were held by ther northerners who wrote the history books.

They were not fighting to protect slavery, but to protect their freedom, homes, etc. Think about the U.S. Army marching into your town and taking over. Not a pleasant thought.

Now, with that basis, we can see that Huckabee is pandering. He's telling people that he wouldn't allow the Northeast, West Coast liberal PC police take away their memories as they have been doing the last 20 years or so.; १८/१/०८, ९:५४ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: At the end of the war, the South, particularly South Carolins and Georgia was burned to the ground with the usual rape, pillage, murder and plunder that accompanied winning armies before our era of enlightened warfare.

One of the blessings of coming from a family of packrats is that I've been able to peruse the diary of my great-great-grandfather, who was in the Civil War. The unit he was in was forbidden from plundering, and those orders were, in large part, followed. When his unit took Montgomery AL, the populace were happy to see them, and did not want them to leave. The collapse of authority does bring out the vandal in some -- on both sides.; १८/१/०८, १०:०७ AM
Elliott A म्हणाले...: Most of these folks had nothing left to plunder. Sherman certainly was a scorched earth policy wonk.; १८/१/०८, १०:११ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Well yes, Sherman was. Sherman was not the entire northern Army however.; १८/१/०८, १०:१७ AM
John Salmon म्हणाले...: "In fact, if someone came to Arkansas, circa 1860, and told us what to do with our slaves, we'd tell them where to stick it."

Lovely image there, Rev. Huckabee.; १८/१/०८, १०:२२ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Idiot.; १८/१/०८, १०:२४ AM
Roger J. म्हणाले...: Re General Sherman (and the civil war). The civil war was, IMO, the first of the modern wars and its innovations can be seen throughout 20th century warfare. It featured railroad logistics, telegraphs, aerial observation, armor plated warships, and automatic weapons. It was the subject of active observation by European army staffs. And I think General Sherman's strategy of scorched earth was a necessary element of that strategy.

That said, I think Elliot makes some good points about how southerners viwed the war (and right of secession). Add to that, in the mid 19th century, ones attachment was far stronger with one's native state than the federal entity. Read Robert E Lee's explanation about his "native Virginia" as his reason for taking up confederate arms.; १८/१/०८, १०:२६ AM
Unknown म्हणाले...: At the end of the war, the South, particularly South Carolins and Georgia was burned to the ground with the usual rape, pillage, murder and plunder that accompanied winning armies before our era of enlightened warfare.

Ever thus to traitors.; १८/१/०८, १०:२७ AM
Peter V. Bella म्हणाले...: The problem is not the stars and bars. The problem is what it ahs come to symbolize, thanks to extreme racist groups like the KKK. Had these groups not used that particular flag as their symbol of hatred I do not beleive that the Confederate flag would stir such heated controversy.; १८/१/०८, १०:२९ AM
Hoosier Daddy म्हणाले...: The problem is not the stars and bars. The problem is what it ahs come to symbolize, thanks to extreme racist groups like the KKK.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I myself don't look fondly on the Stars and Bars myself mainly because I see it as a symbol of dividing the nation and not so much a racist symbol (I am white thought). I think there is one flag that represents this country and its the Stars and Stripes.

That being said it seems that today's Southerners seem a helluva lot more patriotic than those in the Northeastern states. I don't think most southerners view the flag as seperatist but rather as something that identifies them as Southern.; १८/१/०८, १०:५१ AM
TWM म्हणाले...: Born and bred white Southerner here from the Deep South - Mississippi -and an Ole Miss grad. I can't stand the Stars and Bars myself mostly because when I see it, it is on some bumper of an old, beat-up pickup truck driven by uneducated redneck morons who embarrass the hell out of me. (I can say this because, see, I am a Southerner and we can dis our own.)

It belongs in museums, in civil war graveyards, on civil war memorials and in private homes if people are so inclined and not flying above any government building. The reason, for me anyway, is that the winner simply does not fly the flag of the loser in any war.; १८/१/०८, १०:५४ AM
Astronaut Mike Dexter म्हणाले...: It belongs in museums, in civil war graveyards, on civil war memorials and in private homes if people are so inclined and not flying above any government building.

Eeeexactly. Fly it from your front porch, your truck, your tailgate party, whatever, but don't expect the entire state to live under it.

I find it interesting that while freedom-lovin' Huckabee doesn't think the state of South Carolina should be forced to bend to the PC movement's whims, he apparently has no problem forcing thousands of South Carolina's citizens to live under a symbol they find bigoted and detestable.; १८/१/०८, ११:१० AM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Drudge Report- January 18, 2008
A new flag controversy has erupted on the campaign trail in South Carolina. While much of the attention of most of the media has focused on the Southern Battle Flag controversy, a question has arisen as to why a red flag occasionally flies on the Hillary Clinton campaign bus. “Hillary has a very changeable temperament,” said a Clinton staffer on condition of anonymity. “Every once in a while she can be sweet, but most of time she is a raging bitch like she has really, really bad PMS. So when she is in full blown bitch mode we say “the Red Flag is up boys, watch your back” and we fly the red banner on the front antenna. This way the advance staff and the secret service know what’s up.” A cursory examination has revealed that the red flag has flown for 635 consecutive days. Developing……; १८/१/०८, ११:१३ AM
former law student म्हणाले...: The true historic flag of South Carolina is the Palmetto tree flag. Flying the stars and bars is a tribute to the battle to retain slavery. And any Jew should be able to see the exact parallel of Germans seeing the Hakenkreuz as "the reminder to Germans of the brutal war, its aftermath of occupation and reconstruction, and the disdain in which they were held by the Allied powers who wrote the history books." The Germans are smarter than the Southerners, and have banned display of emblems of the Third Reich.

Trooper: Hillary has moved past the realm of PMS to the realm of hot flashes and night sweats.; १८/१/०८, ११:३९ AM
Cedarford म्हणाले...: Doug - Eeeexactly. Fly it from your front porch, your truck, your tailgate party, whatever, but don't expect the entire state to live under it.

Except the f*cking people of S Carolina VOTED to retain the flag, including pluralities of black voters.

I find it interesting that while freedom-lovin' Huckabee doesn't think the state of South Carolina should be forced to bend to the PC movement's whims, he apparantly has no problem forcing thousands of South Carolina's citizens to live under a symbol they find bigoted and detestable.

Actually the problem is more likely to be, in voter's minds, John McCain's pandering that he was for the State and it's voters to decide in 2000, then after he lost the Primary, to conclude he would look better in front of cameras saying residents should be ashamed.

The agitation is no different than the ACLU's war against visible aspects of the Christian Faith. The basic argument is that democracy must be byspassed and majority rule ignored if any vocal activist expresses "hurt and suffering" on behalf of themselves and their identity group.

And if "hurt" is established, even if it is just in their minds or imagination, manifestations of the majority culture must be wiped out while the minority culture is further celebrated and made further visible as good and noble.

And the Southerners are having the same reaction as "progressive" Northerners and people in the UK are now having to demands of new arrival Muslims and their lawyers that they scrap aspects of Western culture and civilization that are "hurtful and offensive" to ALL Muslims (actually just a fringe of professional grievance peddlers.)

In South Carolina's case, the main agitation comes from the now openly racist NAACP (The Klan With The Tan) factions from mostly outside SC, New Black Panthers Party, far Left Southern Law Poverty Center, MSM, and elements of progressive academia.; १८/१/०८, ११:४५ AM
Kirk Parker म्हणाले...: Roger,

"starting with the government shut down and culminating with their most recent defense of pork"

Can you explain this a bit more? These sure seem to me to be opposite ends of the profligate-spending spectrum; why do you object to both?; १८/१/०८, १२:१० PM
Revenant म्हणाले...: The Stars and Bars, was the Confederate Battle Flag. The PC machine has turned it into a symbol of racial hatred and slavery.

Whereas it should more properly be thought of as a symbol of the people who killed more United States soldiers than any other army in history.

I would say that the patriotism of anyone who flies that flag is suspect -- but that would imply that there's some doubt as to whether they side with the enemies of America.; १८/१/०८, १२:१३ PM
Roger J. म्हणाले...: Kirk--good question. I certainly ellipsized the argument but see if this helps: shortly after taking power, the GOP and St. Newt overplayed their hand badly by letting President Clinton shut down the government and transferring blame. As the GOP continued in power they continued to be politically tone deaf as evidenced by signing on to the democrats love of pork and outdoing the earlier Dems under Tip O'Neil. The common thread is political tone deafness. Sorry for making the argument too superficial.; १८/१/०८, १२:१५ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: FLS, a woman can be menopausal and still act like she is on the rag. Just look at Maxine when someone doesn't pay enough attention.; १८/१/०८, १२:२३ PM
Peter V. Bella म्हणाले...: cedarford said:
NAACP (The Klan With The Tan)

I just spewed coffee all over. Missed the laptop and the dog this time.; १८/१/०८, १२:३७ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: The basic argument is that democracy must be byspassed and majority rule ignored if any vocal activist expresses "hurt and suffering" on behalf of themselves and their identity group.

Actually, the basic argument is that the flag of traitorous barbarians has no place in the United States.; १८/१/०८, १२:४४ PM
Eric Muller म्हणाले...: Elliot A: "The Stars and Bars, was the Confederate Battle Flag. The PC machine has turned it into a symbol of racial hatred and slavery. To the people in South Carolina, it is a reminder of a holocaust of sorts."

That would make the American flag a swastika, I guess.; १८/१/०८, १२:५९ PM
Simon म्हणाले...: rightwingprof said...
"I fail to understand what business it is of the President (or Presidential candidate) or the federal government whether South Carolina or Georgia flies the Stars and Bars. I'm getting fairly sick of all this pandering."

It's a form of bullying and intimidation akin to cross burning and a gesture of defiance against values they couldn't beat on the battlefield. As Elliot points out, this gesture of defiance is not well hidden. With that said, I disagree with the balance of Elliot's post; the south seceded, which was not and is not a valid and allowable course of action under the Constitution, and despite Elliot's claim that this invalid and treasonous action "met with a military response," the south fired first - on April 12, 1861, at 4:30 a.m, as history records.

Elliot A said...
"They were not fighting to protect slavery, but to protect their freedom, homes, etc. "

They were fighting for the freedom to keep slaves in their homes. As you say, "[t]he Stars and Bars[] was the Confederate Battle Flag," but it is not true that "[t]he PC machine has turned it into a symbol of racial hatred and slavery" - the Confederate States of America did that, and it will never be forgotten. I think TROblog's comment above has it exactly right - "It belongs in museums, in civil war graveyards, on civil war memorials and in private homes if people are so inclined and not flying above any government building. The ... winner simply does not fly the flag of the loser in any war."

It's certainly arguable that states and individuals have the power to display it, insofar as it may be a constitutionally-protected right and thus beyond the power of government to ban. But in my own view, it has no moral right. On this issue, one my party has perennially found itself on the wrong side of, I dissent.; १८/१/०८, १:१२ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Barak Obama's campaign bus flag is a black and white checkered one. But nobody in the media will talk about that.; १८/१/०८, १:२३ PM
Too many jims म्हणाले...: the south fired first - on April 12, 1861, at 4:30 a.m, as history records.

As an aside interesting perhaps only to me, the southern general responsible for ordering the first shot of the Civil War was also instrumental in adopting the southern battle flag which is the subject of the current debate. (As a further aside, the "Stars and Bars" was the first national of the C.S.A. and not the flag which is the subject of the current debate.); १८/१/०८, २:३२ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Whereas it should more properly be thought of as a symbol of the people who killed more United States soldiers than any other army in history.

Revenant, An appeal to logic and fact in this conversation will get you absolutely nowhere. But I think you know that. Which makes your valiant but ultimately fruitless attempt all the more poignant. Kudos all the same.; १८/१/०८, २:३८ PM
Peter V. Bella म्हणाले...: Trooper York said...
Barak Obama's campaign bus flag is a black and white checkered one. But nobody in the media will talk about that.

Is that because he loves NASCAR? Hey, what kind of food do you think he would have at his tail gate parties?; १८/१/०८, २:४१ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Black and white cookies. And the brew of choice would of course be black and tan.; १८/१/०८, २:५० PM
Paddy O म्हणाले...: "And the brew of choice would of course be black and tan."

Why does Obama want to suppress the Irish? Is he an anti-celtice?; १८/१/०८, ३:१२ PM
Elliott A म्हणाले...: There is a difference between the CSA and the Nazis. One wanted to be left alone, the other wanted world domination. The CSA saw itself as an analogy to the colonies breaking away from Britain. Just they didn't get away with it. Read the Declaration of Independence. Read Thomas Jefferson's inaugural speech in 1801. Read his writings concerning the New England Seccessionists.

While the slavery issue is always the central theme of the Civil War, it was still only an excuse to many northeners for the war. Virtually no northerners wanted freed slaves moving to their neck of the woods. Abraham Lincoln was quoted in one of the debates with Douglas in 1858: "..am not and never have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office..." To Lincoln, the south was in the way of his goal of centralizing and strengthening many facets of the federal government. Lincoln did not believe that whites and blacks could live together in the same society. He thought white people racially superior. Etc. Etc. While the awful condition of slavery is a wonderful fallback position in Civil War discussions, it wasn't the reason for the war, much the same as we know WMDs weren't the real reason for Iraq. Slavery could have been ended without 600000 dead if that were the intent of the northern states.

All the discussions about the candidates should make it painfully clear that there are always agendas, they will say and do anything to further their's and they are not telling you what they are really thinking.

That all said, I could never vote for Huckabee. I think he is a clown, and not made of the stuff necessary to be POTUS.; १८/१/०८, ३:५५ PM
Christy म्हणाले...: I grew up seeing the Confederate Flag as a Rebel flag. Rebel. It was a big ole FU to the man. Do you really think a rebel is going to abondon a powerful symbol because the powers that be say it means something else?

(I speak as someone whose Tennessee and Kentucky forefathers fought for the Union.); १८/१/०८, ५:५७ PM
rcocean म्हणाले...: Sometimes the Huckster actually says something I agree with. Like this comment on the flag.

The state flag of SC is the business of the people of SC. Everyone else should just STFU.
And if the flag "offends" you, stay out of SC.

The flag has been their for what 50 years? Funny how it only started "offending" people in the last 10 years. Guess everyone got glasses in 1998.

BTW, is McCain still lying about his support for the flag?; १८/१/०८, ६:४६ PM
Trooper York म्हणाले...: Ron Paul has a black flag on his campaign bus. But that is because he is a cockroach. (no offense blogging cockroach).; १८/१/०८, ७:१३ PM
rcocean म्हणाले...: And Obama has a checkered flag on his bus. 'cause he's a race car fan.; १८/१/०८, ७:२१ PM
Revenant म्हणाले...: One wanted to be left alone.

In the sense that a child molester just "wants to be left alone".; १८/१/०८, ७:५० PM
AlphaLiberal म्हणाले...: The Confederacy was a treasonous act and the flag is the flag of treason.

The "heritage" is racism, brutal racism. White supremacy. It sure as hell ain't mint juleps.

Huckelberry flunks.; १९/१/०८, ६:४८ PM
Revenant म्हणाले...: Good grief, AlphaLiberal said something sensible. Someone get me a stiff drink, I can't handle this state of confusion.; २०/१/०८, ३:११ AM