२० ऑगस्ट, २००६
Airline passengers "mutiny."
But do they deserve to be called racist? There were factors beyond the Middle Eastern appearance of the men who spooked them, but they are factors -- like scruffiness -- that we ignore all the time. I think that people may be turning down their internal censor and taking action where before they would simply calm themselves.
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It is important to use situations like this to nip racism and other stereotyping in the bud.
I think it would be a good idea for freedom fighters the world over to begin looking scruffy and speaking what appears to be Arabic with each other.
I hope the two guys get a big damage award, so that in the future the majority will begin to feel the pain of disadvantaged minorities. That's the point of a lot of terrorism, in fact, and TWAT will be soon be making terrorists and asymmetric warriors of all of us minorities.
Seven Machos,
You seem to have concluded that the two guys were terrorists. Your attitude is exactly the problem, and those of us out here who daily suffer the same sorts of discrimination and abuse for no reason, whether muslims or not, are being driven by TWAT to asymmetrical warfare, exactly because there are few people to sue.
Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther, MLK and Thomas Paine figured that out, and they weren't muslims. Why can't you?
This is a tired point, but if more people who look "Arabic" were out there denouncing terrorism, people would be much less apt to react that way.
After the plot that just got discovered, you'd be comatose not to be a little concerned about these guys, with their bulky coats, on your plane.
What if these Arabic-looking guys with the bulky coats had been a white "pregnant" woman carrying a very big swaddled "baby?"
If the freedom fighters do ever take to using exploding babies, we can at least look forward to quieter air travel.
Actually, knoxgirl, I'd say if fewer people who looked arabic were out there blowing people up these things wouldn't' happen. I don't think it would make much difference if moderate Islamic groups periodically issued condemnations of terrorism. They do that now. The problem is that almost all the terrorism in the world is committed by Middle Easterners/muslims. Thus it makes perfect sense to "profile" such people as possible terrorists - especially on airplanes. This is not "discrimination and abuse for no reason". This is a perfectly sensible state of high alertness to a threat that only a few days ago was again proven well-founded.
I find it a very heartening sign that when Westerners are pushed hard enough, even liberal Europeans will act in the interest of self-preservation. As Laurence Auster points out, for once they aren't acting like Eloi.
I'm curious to know the real reason the two men were deplaned. (Here comes that little black duck again with his conspiracy theories.)
Was it really for further security screening or was it to placate the dissenters/customers who would otherwise be on that particular plane? Surely the two men were thoroughly screened from the start. And, after all, the two men simply took a different flight.
My point is this: Couldn't the captain have declared to the dissenters (I venture most of the passengers were were willing to fly with the two men on board)that the flight is leaving, and you all can get on it, or you can forfeit your money.
Guess not.
If the freedom fighters do ever take to using exploding babies
Well, Jim, when that happens, I suppose people will start eying babies suspiciously too. What a great day that will be!
Jim is just trolling along. He used the same OTT remark last week on Volokh.com discussing bringing milk on planes:
(link)jimbino (mail)13 Aug 06 :
If only the terrorists had hatched a plan using exploding babies instead of liquids! Think of the peace and quiet that might take your mind off the missing iPods, novels and water bottles!
Jim, when white women feigning pregnancy begin suicide bombing and terrorizing, we'll start profiling them. Until then, it makes sense to profile middle easterners, especially young men without women or children along.
Speaking of trolls, once "Jim" bestowed the term "freedom fighters" on terrorists he proved that any attempts at engaging with him rationally would be useless.
His attempts to call on the legacy of Gandhi and Martin Luther King are particularly grotesque in this context. Gandhi and King stood for the principle that social justice could and should be achieved peacefully through an appeal to the power of conscience. If the Arabs had applied Gandhi's lesson, a Palestinian state would have been born 20 years ago and the Middle East would now be peaceful and prosperous.
I'm wondering why simply being scruffy passengers should set off alarm bells. If they were sufficiently scruffy, we might not want to sit next to them for hygenic reasons. But these two just went through supposedly strict security, weren't acting strangely other than speaking a foreigh language, and so presumably should have posed no threat.
Weren't the 9/11 highjackers fairly neatly-dressed and middle-class looking?
I may be wrong, but Richard Reid is the only actual terrorist I can think of with a wierd appearance.
Wouldn't it be just as easy to hide explosive ingredients under a sports jacket as the strange garb these two had on?
What about a terror attack where a couple of unshaven wild-eyed types from Central Casting attract all the attention, while the actual culprits are those smartly-dressed businessmen in row 17?
Judging from appearances may or may not be racist. That category has been overused anyway to the point of meaninglessness. But making judgements based on appearance alone can be very stupid.
Will our frightened overreaction be the next tool of our enemies?
"Also, what is the terrorist fetish with planes?"
Because the act is a gesture, not an act with a political aim, like a hunger strike or a military coup. It is theater for the intended masses, horrible and thrilling, and also places the terrorist at the center of his own ecstatic drama. At the point of total submission to his version of Islam, that's all he's got left.
Freder Frederson said: Of course they deserve to be called racist. These two passengers received extra screening for no other reason than some typically xenophobic, racist Brits thought they looked and "acted" like terrorists...
I wouldn't call them xenophobic...maybe 'getting-blown-up-on-an-airplane-by-people
-who-remarkably-resemble-people
-who-have-done-this-before-phobic," but certainly not xenophobic...certainly not.
I wouldn't call them xenophobic...maybe 'getting-blown-up-on-an-airplane-by-people
-who-remarkably-resemble-people
-who-have-done-this-before-phobic," but certainly not xenophobic...certainly not.
Cowards, in other words.
Reading this article, I wondered if any of the people involved in this notorious incident a few years back.
I think Instapundit has it about right: when governments don't take reasonable precautions, individuals begin to institute their more crude, clumsier versions.
Thankfully, the majority of humanity has not been seduced by this multicultural-tolerance-at-all -costs. While it is OBVIOUSLY true that not all Muslims are terrorists, why is it so hard for any public figure to admit that the overwhelming majority of terrorists are Muslims?
People aren't stupid. Even if governments want to commit suicide, their citizens do not.
They're probably the same ones who've been complaining about all the niggards, too.
How many Stephen's post on this site?
My fellow brothers- It's time we distinguish between each other.
I think the far right anti-government activists, white supremacists and fundamentalist anti-abortion activists in this country are a much greater threat
of terrorism than islamists.... Does that mean I have the right to force every redneck I see off the planes I am flying on?
Have anti-abortionists taken up bombing planes? I thought they pretty much stuck with bombing clinics and doctors. Which is why I imagine that abortion doctors and clinic workers get nervous when they see strange men of any ethnicity hanging around their houses or clinics for no apparent reason. I'm sure they do a little profiling all the time: unknown women and children hanging around - probably OK; unknown men hanging around - better keep our guard up. At least I don't recall any women bombing clinics. Protesting, of course, but no actual bombing. But then I could be uninformed.
Of course it's racist. If you don't want to fly with Muslims, or people who look like they could possibly Muslim, then don't fly. At least 30% of the world's population falls into that category (looks like a Muslim), yet how many of them are blowing up planes?
I have a friend in London who is Pakistani, and he says that when he gets on the subway, he will see people leave the car he is in and then enter another car. Which is fine. As long as they don't tell my friend to get off the subway, because he looks "suspicious".
I also have Indian friends in London (Buddhist) and they say that they face anti-Muslim discrimination all the time, as people assume they are Muslim.
Justify it all you want - it's still wrong and it's obviously racist.
If a passenger looks suspicious, then search him. But if he passes security clearance - it's absurd to kick them off the plane.
It looks to me as if some people want to start “White Middle-Class Airways.” That’s fine. Raise the capital, lease the planes, hire the staff, and see if you can get regulatory approval anywhere in the world. Can’t, eh? Well, it looks like we’re stuck with public airlines.
Governments and the airline industry are ultimately responsible for security. If you think they’re doing a bad job, the answer is simple: Stay off public airlines. Take ground transport, water transport, charter an airplane, stay home, walk, or meet your friends or clients on the Astral Plane (which is NOT an aircraft, BTW). And, yes, you can even walk off an airplane if you wish. But please don’t expect the airline to put off passengers, who have otherwise been through security screening, just because you frighten easily.
If you are going to use a public airline you should be prepared to deal with the public, who are increasingly “international” in makeup, even in places as remote as the middle of North America.
It seems our British holiday-makers were upset to find foreigners in Spain. A couple of them looked dodgey and spoke an “Arabic-sounding” language. What kind of security would satisfy these tourists? “Hullo, we’re from the Ministry of Funny Talks, and we understand you’ve been speakin’ a foreign language on this ‘ere very aircraft. Would you mind comin’ with us to ‘elp clear up this serious matter?”
Give me a break. Governments since 9/11 have been preoccupied with airline security. The results have not been perfect, but how many terror attacks using aircraft have there been since? There is much done behind the scenes for security reasons that our amateur Hercule Poirots can’t begin to fathom. But if you feel “uncomfortable,” well then, that’s good enough reason to chuck the wogs out, isn’t it?
Johnny Nucleo said...
If I were an Islamofascist bent on the destruction of civilization I would send out a memo urging the recruitment of white female operatives. Why don't they do that? There are white Muslims.
I agree Johnny. Profiling of obvious bomber types encourages terrorists to recruit white females. However, war is a game of resources.
1. Profiling focuses resources on high probability suspects.
2. The counter pressure encourages terrorists to recruit folks who don't match the profile. However, those recruitment efforts by the terrorists result in:
a. increased costs when you have to recruit beyond your local mosque.
b. increased probability that the white female recruit will rat you out
c. lower costs of inserting FBI informants into your operation.
People don't always know what it is they recognize as suspicious. That's one reason that I think that in some situations a "feeling" should be reasonable cause for a search.
I also agree that profiling for airport searches should be used.
That said, this story just *feels* like the plane was occupied by the Dursleys.
British attitude about foreign travel:
"I've been abroad, and it's a terrible place."
Shanna:
Yes, these people are bloody racists - and, more seriously, their behaviour was not only disruptive but potentially dangerous to themselves and others.
If Monarch Airlines had any balls, they would have asked the Spanish police to remove and prosecute all 150 of them for breaching civil aviation regulations.
I'm not white, speak multiple languages and am not exactly a GQ coverboy at the best of times. I'm happy to submit to legitimate authorities operating under the rule of law, not vigilante passengers and craven airlines more interested in their profits than the rule of law and plain common decency.
The Tory Homeland Security spokesman, Patrick Mercer, had it exactly right:
"This is a victory for terrorists. These people on the flight have been terrorised into behaving irrationally.
"For those unfortunate two men to be victimised because of the colour of their skin is just nonsense."
My partner and I will be traveling to England for a family wedding next year. Perhaps I should stage a mutiny of my own so I don't have to worry about being threatened by pig-igonrant, paranoid white Brits who think everyone who doesn't look and talk like them are mass murderers.
Shanna:
I'd suggest you trade in The Gift of Fear for a copy of Malcolm Gladwell's Blink - where he argues there what he calls "rapid cognition" has its uses, but also has very real limitations. I'd also respectfully suggest that Gavin De Becker - who runs a large "protective services consultancy" - is hardly a disinterested advocate of keeping people in a state of permanent paranoid anxiety. He might find fear less of a gift if he was in an airport full of people who get rather anxious around large white American men. Racial paranoia cuts both ways, people.
I've not seen anyone suggest that these 'Asian' men (and for the record, not every British citizen of "Asian appearance" is a Muslim) had circumvented airport security at Malaga, or that the checks are insufficient.
With all due respect, I'd suggest all Britons who feels that anxious about swarthy folks speaking funny languages should choose to holiday somewhere other than Spain. Hell, they might also like to stay away from good chunks of their own country.
Yes, be afraid. Be very afraid.
Some tips for would-be Sherlock Holmeses among airline passengers:
You can tell something's afoot when that turbaned and bearded fellow in 19A with the bottles of nitric acid and glycerine on his pull-down tray asks the flight attendant for a bucket of ice water and and an Erlenmeyer flask. Requesting laboratory glassware is a strong hint someone's up to no good. It's almost certain that the TSA stumblebums took away his toothpaste but missed the nitric acid. If he starts saying something like, "Allah akbar" while decanting a thick liquid from the flask, you'll know that events have taken an alarming turn.
Similarly, you should keep an eye on the South Asian gentleman in 44B with several liters of 80% hydrogen peroxide and a kilo of silver dust. It's amazing how the TSA just seems to miss these unusual carry-on items.
Finally, a sure indication that someone on your flight bears scrutiny is when he is clenching a gleaming scimitar tightly between his yellowed teeth. The TSA overlooks gleaming scimitars all the time, so you can't be too careful.
I'll be serious for a minute:
There's nothing wrong with a screener thinking something is "funny," and taking action. Too bad that 9/11 one didn't. For my part, I don't care WHAT the TSA in this country has to do to keep air travel safe, including all the profiling needed to get the job done. That's one reason we have an accountable Government. If things get too lax or racist in effect, people object, and the Government can be held responsible. That's called a govenment of laws.
My problem is with passengers who want to take matters into their own hands, thinking the emanations from their prejudices and fears equate to useful intuitions.
Let's face it. We're just not that clever. But these Brits wanted to throw a hissy fit until a couple of poor bastards who weren't pudgy Anglo-Saxons were bounced off the airplane.
Give me a break.
I keep seeing a lot of comments about how these Brits want to kick off "every one that doesn't look like them" or "every muslim/Arab/Asian." But as was pointed out earlier, it's not really every Asian man, is it? It's these particular Asian men. That seems like a pretty significant difference that keeps getting passed over.
Don't you just hate reading self-righteous people throwing around accusations of racism?
Especially when they are imputing racism to whole other races of people, such as the British - which itself is an example of... um, racism.
Ironic, or what?
Editor Theorist:
What I find very far from amusing is self-appointed vigilantes and their enablers. Sorry, but let's all cash a reality check and just admit that what happened here was flat out, unapoligetic racism - FFS, what triggered the suspicion here? Oh, they were of 'Asian appearance' (which is?) and 'speaking a language that appeared to be Arabic' (and do you speak Arabic, sir? No?) while 'oddly dressed' (and who the frack died and made you the fashion police commissioner?). As I said above, I'd really like to pick some of the commentators here up and drop them in a part of the work where being a white, English-speaking American triggers some pretty unpleasant 'instincts'.
I don't actually know what offends me more about much of this thread - the utter political and cultural insularity on display, or that none of you folks seem to get that every Islamofascist out there has been handed another propaganda victory on a silver plate, with precisely zero gain in airport security. Who needs terrorists when we're perfectly happy to terrorise law-abiding citizens going about their legitimate business without any help.
Maybe it's a little unfair, but Craig's implied claim that he's equally concerned about the possible racist elements involved AND the terrorist propoganda victory sounds more than a little hollow.
Seven:
*sigh* Absolutely wrong, but I've done the straw man two step with you before. I know it might be very hard for you to understand, but not all the seven billion odd people on this planet are like you. What I've seen are two British citizens being harassed by self-appointed vigilantes while going about their legitimate and lawful business, in full conformity to every regulation and passing every security check in an airport I understand is superbly well run. But I guess that doesn't matter to you because - let's get real - they're the wrong colour. And no matter how disingenuously you try to spin it, do you think anyone would have given a damn if they were a pair of scruffy white backpackers in jumpers speaking any other language than English?
Much as I hate to say this, the attitudes around here really live down to the stereotypes of British and American tourists abroad - arrogant, insular fools who view the rest of the planet as a giant Disneyland created for their comfort and convenience. And prone to temper tantrums when the natives don't jump to fast enough.
Oh, and I really loved this weapon of mass distraction from you: Also, who has been terrorized when people refuse to fly with other people they suspect to be terrorists? Um, so remind me who was removed from the plane, interrogated and forced to take a later flight?
Jeremy:
Excuse me? Perhaps I'm being a little unfair, but if you're implying that I'm a supporter of terrorism or Islamofascism in general you'd be wise to step off that one. But ice to hear another iteration of the logic that we've got to destroy the rule of law to save it.
Craig,
No, not at all. I did not say that you supported terrorism. I did not imply that you do.
What I did say is that your concern appears chiefly to be for the civil rights issues at hand. That's been the bulk of your commentary. That is certainly a reasonable position to take.
In your comment at 4:38, you wrote that you were equally concerned about the way that the terrorists could use this as a propoganda victory.
That claim of equal weight is what I questioned based on your previous comments.
Seven Machos:
Well, I certainly hope the State Department doesn't run the U.S. diplomatic service on the basis on a critical mass of feminine intuition and paranoid hysterics - which appears to be your model for securing transport infrastructure. Perhaps I'm showing my age, but I also remember when American diplomats were advocates for tiresome things like due process, the rule of law and bowing to hysterical mobs. I thought conservatives used to believe in things like that too - or are they only courtesies to be extended to white, Christian English speaking Americans who meet a dress code?
HaloJones Fan:
...but I can't really see how the two passengers in question were inconvenienced in any way whatsoever.
I reply:
Yeah, they were removed from the plane by airport security (which was delayed by three hours while their luggage was deplaned), interrogated and forced to spend another day somewhere they didn't want to be. I guess 'Asian appearing' people in your neck of the woods don't have jobs, families, or any other obligations. I also very much doubt they got fast-tracked through security at Malaga the next day.
But I guess where the paranoia of white folks is concerned, no inconvenience or humiliation is too great for the incorrectly pigmented.
garrick williams wrote:
Unfortunately, being Arab is going to add to that, but that's just going to be true as long as young Arab men wearing bulky clothing when it's hot out blow themselves up in crowded places at a much higher rate than other segments of the population.
'Empirically', British folks should be more worried about being blown up by Irishmen. Or while you're in Spain, more people have been blown up by Basque separatists than 'young Arab men'. I also come from a country where two agents of the DGSE, perpetrated an act of state-sponsored terrorism (Google 'Rainbow Warrior bombing'), perhaps I'm justified in refusing to fly with people suspiciously speaking French and looking at their watches. Statistically, the perpetrators of violent crimes against women and 'incidents' on airplanes are overwhelmingly male - perhaps we should also start banning people with penises from flying at all?
Which is a nice segue to...
Shanna wrote:
But men can rant about "female intuition" all they want, but when it's protecting your own life you better listen to it. These passengers may have been wrong, but it seems as though you are going to act as if anyone who is suspicious of a person of asian/arab persuasion is a racist unless they don't have some concrete reason that you accept as good enough.
Well, Shanna, I do actually like living under the rule of law rather than a mobocracy; a legal system that operates on evidence and due process rather than 'feelings' and 'intuitions'; oh, unlike some people around here, where we respect lawful & legitimate authority and discourage vigilantes. It's what actually distinguishes us from Islamofascist theocracies - where, incidentally, you'd find yourself on a whole other set of 'intuitions' as a western woman.
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