Althouse: "I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and grace to be ashamed of yourself."

६ एप्रिल, २००६

"I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and grace to be ashamed of yourself."

A citizen said that to President Bush at a forum today.

३९ टिप्पण्या:

PatHMV म्हणाले...: The beauty of our country is that a citizen can do that and not be arrested, threatened, audited, or otherwise face government retaliation. The President even told the audience (who vocally disapproved of the question) to be quiet and let the man finish his question.; ६/४/०६, ४:१२ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: What public actions do you have the grace and humility to be ashamed of, Ann?

Maybe they're classified. Maybe she can declassify them, but she can't declassify the fact that they've been declassified, so we'll never know!; ६/४/०६, ४:३३ PM
PatHMV म्हणाले...: Mind you, I think the questioner was entirely wrong, and is one of those who seeks to push our politics to the extremes rather than to engage in actual, rational debate (you disagree with me, so you should be ashamed of yourself), but I absolutely support his right to petition his government for redress of grievances, regardless of my opinion of the merits of those grievances.; ६/४/०६, ४:४० PM
Laura Reynolds म्हणाले...: Granted its a great thing he has the right to ask that, and was allowed to but that's something your mother tells you. "You should be ashamed of yourself."

Given a chance to ask a good hard question, instead of a softball, he throws up a self-righteous shot.
My answer back is "I hope the same for you, sir."; ६/४/०६, ४:४२ PM
sean म्हणाले...: I would guess that the questioner is a man who has found that aggressive self-righteousness is generally effective in putting people on the defensive. Most people don't like confrontation and tend to become apologetic when confronted with this tone, although they don't normally change their behavior over the long term.

However, successful politicians have confronted and learned to deal much more hostility than most of us ever encounter, so this type of rhetoric doesn't work with the president of the United States.; ६/४/०६, ५:२९ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: I think in a way, the man's question was respectful, and a nice demonstration of the free speech we enjoy in this country. If he really feared Bush as a tyrant, would he appear in public and ask that question? And in a way, it was also another softball question, giving Bush the chance to reaffirm his belief that the surveillance program is justified, which is something most Americans and most members of Congress seem to agree with.; ६/४/०६, ५:३६ PM
knox म्हणाले...: stever said: "Given a chance to ask a good hard question... he throws up a self-righteous shot..."

Never underestimate some people's desire, nay, need to belch out a big cloud of smug.; ६/४/०६, ५:४२ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: This guy was a hero. Too bad he hadn't read last night's newspapers, or this morning's. Then he might have asked:

Is it true as I. Lewis Libby states that you gave Vice President Cheney authorization to disclose portions of the classified NIE document to reporters? Jane Harman this afternoon is referring to you as "Leaker-In-Chief", saying "The reason we classify things is to protect our sources - those who risk their lives to give us secrets. Who knows how many sources were burned by giving Libby this 'license to leak'?

"If I had leaked the information, I'd be in jail. Why should the President be above the law?

"The President has the legal authority to declassify information, but there are normal channels for doing so. Telling an aide to leak classified information to the New York Times is not a normal channel. A normal declassification procedure would involve going back to the originating agency, such as the CIA, and then putting out a public, declassified version of the document."

Representative Waxman suggests the record looks as though you improperly classified and declassified material solely for political reasons has asked you for a full accounting of Vice President Cheney's actions.

Bill Schneider of CNN says "He was out to get his political enemy, to discredit Joe Wilson. And he did it by authorizing intelligence information to be leaked. I think most Americans would say that's a very dangerous and very foolish thing to do" and asks "serious questions are being raised, [are you] really honest and trustworthy? Do [you] level with the American people?".

Fox News reports that only 36% of the people give you a favorable job approval rating.

How do you respond to these critics? Are you being honest with us? Is there any oversight? Why should we believe you anymore?; ६/४/०६, ५:५० PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I think Bush handled it well. The best thing for people so emotionally distraught is to treat them with respect and deal with their real issues, if they have any, like the wiretapping. I note that the paper still tries to prove its case that these events are just Bush's feeble attempts to present himself as winning back public opinion.; ६/४/०६, ५:५० PM
nina म्हणाले...: Though it did not have a question mark tone to it, I think the citizen's comment was in fact a question. To me, it sounded as if he was indeed asking if Bush can admit to shame (it is irrelevant whether or not we think Bush ought to, or does in facthave humility or shame or both).

I also like the Q on Africa, btw.; ६/४/०६, ५:५० PM
Palladian म्हणाले...: It was so pleasant around here for the last week or so. I kept wondering, what kept the comments on topic and civil and interesting? What had changed? What was missing?

Now I remember.

Ugh. Where were you, quxxo? On vacation in Venezuela? Did you attend any events where a citizen asked Papa Hugo if he was ashamed of himself? Don't bother answering. I don't care.; ६/४/०६, ६:५९ PM
retired randy म्हणाले...: I think the President should check out the Burlington Liars Club. He's surely had enough practice to easily take first place just about any time he explains something. AND I'M STILL ASHAMED OF MY COUNTRIES LEADERS.; ६/४/०६, ७:१० PM
ShadyCharacter म्हणाले...: Golly, retired randy, I bet that glob of spit and bile you just plopped onto the screen convinced several people who don't share your irrational hatred of our president of just how awful our president is.

Keep it up, I'd like to see 60+ republican senators in November! =)

Out of curiosity, are you one of those old farts who just gets more and more bitter and unpleasant the older he gets? Get off my lawn! =); ६/४/०६, ७:२७ PM
Laura Reynolds म्हणाले...: Knoxgirl: Yep!

Quxxo: What was revealed was that Libby was given permission to leak information in the NIE ahead of its public release. Its not a classified document in total, so many parts are leaked all the time, without violating any security rules. Its called politics. If its more than that you can yell, but based on what we *know* now you're once again the victum of wishful thinking. Remeber November 2004.

Now go back to sleep, except for Mary we were having a plaeasnt time around here..; ६/४/०६, ७:३० PM
Allen म्हणाले...: When it comes to matters of national security, I think that the majority of Americans are willing to put their faith in the President to do what needs to be done.

The fact of the matter is that we should not even know about these wiretaps. Whoever leaked the information is the enemy here, not the Bush Administration.; ६/४/०६, ७:३६ PM
knox म्हणाले...: You mean, quzzzzzzzo; ६/४/०६, ८:०० PM
retired randy म्हणाले...: to shadycharacter. (apt name.) Yes, I'm a bitter old coot who served 6 years in the Army, A life Member of the VFW, and a Retired Union Carpenter, who decided to retire early, so I could get at least some of my social security before it's given to Haliburton or some poor underperforming oil company. Growing up, I learned that my country did not start wars, we ended them. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, called for humane treatment of prisoners of war, and it was drummed into us at every turn. I always assumed my country would never lie to me. Oh yes, I'm a bitter old coot.; ६/४/०६, ८:०२ PM
Palladian म्हणाले...: retired randy, if you're telling the truth about your military background, then thank you for your service. That said, your past service doesn't make you immune to criticism for coming in here and spewing silly talking points.

"Retired Union Carpenter"

Sounds like you have the democrat/leftist union rhetoric down pat.

"Growing up, I learned that my country did not start wars, we ended them."

Really? Well, who started this one? As far as I'm concerned we're finishing what should have been finished 15 years ago.; ६/४/०६, ८:२९ PM
Laura Reynolds म्हणाले...: A clarification of my earlier comment. If POTUS decides to release something/anything he is declassifying it. So he cannot leak classified information, only unclassified or declassified information.; ६/४/०६, ९:०७ PM
Steve Donohue म्हणाले...: If you read retired randy's blog, it's quite clear that he's probably not a real person. Or at least I hope not, because he's a rather odd fellow with odd opinions.

"I think the President should check out the Burlington Liars Club. He's surely had enough practice to easily take first place just about any time he explains something."

Damned witty, Wilde.; ६/४/०६, ९:११ PM
Sloanasaurus म्हणाले...: "...Why did Bush vow to the American public that he would "get to the bottom" of the plame leak if he authorized the leak himself?..."

Wait, did I just witness a complete false statement... a totally made up story, a stretching of the truth... did Brando really leap from Bush authorizing Libby to discuss the NIE report a few days ahead of public release to Bush authorizing the leak of Plame's name?

Of course! It's pretty typical of the left to pedal their lies and stories... Ho hum.

Go back to reading about Che and Hugo, they must make a lot of sense to you.; ६/४/०६, ९:२८ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: Brando: That's unacceptable namecalling. You are warned.; ६/४/०६, १०:४९ PM
Simon Kenton म्हणाले...: It seems pretty likely that the president has confronted his alcoholism via AA. What you get from AA doesn't come free; I would guess he has more insight into his own reservoirs of shame and guilt, and the grace one can nonetheless receive, than people who want to play gotcha for the cams.; ६/४/०६, ११:१२ PM
Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...: As has been pointed out, the President cannot illegally disclose confidential information. The power to classify and declassify information is his, as the Executive, and is arguably part of his plenary Article II powers, and is delegated to those working for him.

But while we are on the subject of Constitutional powers, I find Libby's motion to dismiss his indictment on the basis of Fitzgerald acting as a principle officer, despite him not being confirmed by the Senate, interesting. Apparently, he has violated any number of DOJ rules, including subpoening reporters - which apparently requires approval by the AG or his deputies. It shall be interesting to see what happens.; ६/४/०६, ११:१९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: "It seems pretty likely that the president has confronted his alcoholism via AA."

The preznit never went to AA. He supposedly kicked alcohol all on his own. After Katrina more than one report was heard that he had started drinking again. It would help to explain the mysterious injuries, the pretzel incident, the downtime in Crawford, and Laura's love of Desparate Housewives. "I am married to the president of the United States, and here's our typical evening: Nine o'clock, Mr. Excitement here is sound asleep, and I'm watching Desperate Housewives— with Lynne Cheney. Ladies and gentlemen, I am a desperate housewife. I mean, if those women on that show think they're desperate, they oughta be with George."; ७/४/०६, १२:४२ AM
chuck b. म्हणाले...: It's interesting to read how people from different places voice dissatisfaction. A hope for humility and grace? You won't hear someone phrase it that way in, say, San Francisco where I live.

The North Carolina complaint appeals to a particular sensibility. We have so many particular sensibilities!; ७/४/०६, १२:५० AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: As has been pointed out, the President cannot illegally disclose confidential information. The power to classify and declassify information is his, as the Executive, and is arguably part of his plenary Article II powers, and is delegated to those working for him.

Can a President abuse his legal powers?

Can a President take what is normally a legal power and use it in an illegal manner by intentionally misapplying it? Say by declassifying information without following established procedures in order to further political and not national interests?

Is incompetence in his office ever grounds for impeachment? Could gross incompetence some how be a high crime or misdemeanor?

Are you okay with the argument that President Clinton could not have illegally transferred classified satellite and rocket navigation technology to China?

If Reagan had just up and given classified Star Wars Technology to Gorbachev against the advice of the Congress as he declared he wanted to would you have been okay with that?

As has been pointed out, the President cannot illegally disclose confidential information.

Come on Bruce, you will have to do better than that.; ७/४/०६, २:१२ AM
Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...: Can a President abuse his legal powers?

Obviously. Nixon and Johnson probably did. Clinton probably would have, except that it was his wife who had those FBI files pulled and the IRS sent to auditing his enemies.

Can a President take what is normally a legal power and use it in an illegal manner by intentionally misapplying it?

See above.

Say by declassifying information without following established procedures in order to further political and not national interests?

No.

Those procedures were put in place under his (or his precedesssors') authority.

Is incompetence in his office ever grounds for impeachment? Could gross incompetence some how be a high crime or misdemeanor?

Doubtful, but I am sure that you could c come up with some gross incompetence that would put this into question. But not even Carter was that bad.

Are you okay with the argument that President Clinton could not have illegally transferred classified satellite and rocket navigation technology to China?

The problem there was that to the extent it was done, it was done for personal, venal, reasons - mostly for illegal campaign contributions (and soliciting campaign contributions in this way in not within his pleanary Article II powers).

But if he had done it for strategic reasons, that would have been different.

Note, btw, the closest Clinton analogy was his trading those last minute pardons for campaign contributions for his wife and commissions for her brothers. While quite venal, that most likely wasn't impeachable, even if he hadn't been on the way out the door.

If Reagan had just up and given classified Star Wars Technology to Gorbachev against the advice of the Congress as he declared he wanted to would you have been okay with that?

I wouldn't have liked it, but it wouldn't have been illegal.

As has been pointed out, the President cannot illegally disclose confidential information.

Come on Bruce, you will have to do better than that.

Nope. Besides, the stuff that you threw out is different orders of magnitude worse than anything done here by President Bush. He had arguably (which is all that counts) good national defense reasons to do what he did. No second guessing here. Hundreds, if thousands, of documents are declassified every day under his authority, and this was just part of one of them.

The question is, who gets to determine which documents are classified and which are not. And the answer is that it is typically someone working for the President, most likely at some median level. But that authority is delegated them by the Executive. In short, they are exercising his power when they do it.

So, you are suggesting that his employees can declassify documents and he, from whom they get that power, can't? That doesn't make sense.; ७/४/०६, २:५३ AM
Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...: The preznit never went to AA. He supposedly kicked alcohol all on his own. After Katrina more than one report was heard that he had started drinking again.

That you have heard this before on the leftwing side of the blogosphere doesn't make it true, but rather, that they just wished it were true.; ७/४/०६, २:५७ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: So, you are suggesting that his employees can declassify documents and he, from whom they get that power, can't? That doesn't make sense.

No, all I was saying was that your blanket statement didn't make sense. And clearly, you agreed with me.

"After Katrina more than one report was heard that he had started drinking again."

That you have heard this before on the leftwing side of the blogosphere doesn't make it true, but rather, that they just wished it were true.

Yeah, I was just pulling your chain. The truth is though that Preznit Bush the Pretzel Master didn't go to AA.; ७/४/०६, ३:११ AM
Jinnmabe म्हणाले...: I'm sure you were going for "insulting" but "Pretzel Master" just sounds really cool to me. I wish I was a Pretzel Master.

mmmmmmmm, pretzels.; ७/४/०६, ३:२७ AM
goesh म्हणाले...: Stopping the genocide in Africa? Gee! Bush should have said, " We have no strategic interests in Africa, the UN is doing a darn good job there, which we are a part of."; ७/४/०६, ६:४६ AM
tjl म्हणाले...: Quxxo is back, alas.
His absence from the gay-marriage threads helped open the way for a largely civil and rant-free discussion of substantive issues. Quxxo must have been unable to summon up any interest in a topic that wasn't a platform for diatribes against his great bete noire, George Bush.; ७/४/०६, ७:०८ AM
Thorley Winston म्हणाले...: And to any of the bright bulbs on this thread who think i'm a commie liberal, I would then guess they think that the likes of William Buckley is a commie liberal as well as Arlen Spectre and Chuck Hagel and Brent Scowcroft, just to name a few for they hold many of the very same views I have put forth on this thread and others in the past. Alot of commies around all the sudden, eh? I didn't know commies could be conservatives who served in the Reagan Administration. Almost all of the American Public is are now commies it seems.

Just out of curiosity, how much are you being paid and by whom for each time you type the word “commie”?; ७/४/०६, १०:१७ AM
Thorley Winston म्हणाले...: It seems pretty likely that the president has confronted his alcoholism via AA.

I believe that it is still an open question whether Bush was ever or is an alcoholic. AFAIK he did some heavy drinking when he was younger, had one DUI (which is still one more than I have) some thirty years ago but quit drinking when he turned 40 because he found that it sapped his energy. Not a lot to go on for a charge of alcoholism IMO.; ७/४/०६, १०:२९ AM
Thorley Winston म्हणाले...: I don't "disagree" with Bush. I think he is one of the worst Presidents in our history,

And this is precisely the spot where many of us quit reading and went on to the next comment.; ७/४/०६, ११:५३ AM
Thorley Winston म्हणाले...: wow, thorley, that's impressive. you really knocked me down with that one.

No seriously, I’m looking to make some extra cash. Help a brother out, will ya?; ७/४/०६, १२:१७ PM
Laura Reynolds म्हणाले...: I guess that Karl Rove plant idea was incorrect? yeah right (wink wink nod nod); ७/४/०६, १:५८ PM
Laura Reynolds म्हणाले...: (ok, keep up the good work); ७/४/०६, ४:०० PM