From "Is Polyamory Right for You?/Elisabeth Sheff spent 30 years studying polyamory. Here’s what she learned" (NYT gift link).
This is a long interview, so you might want to check it out. Or you might want to bemoan the NYT and its endless fascination with polyamory. Its bias in favor of openness is shown by the lack of a comments section. I really wanted to read comments. Before I noticed the absence of comments, I was betting that someone would cherry-pick the line "he really wanted me to find us a woman that we could share." And: "he was like, You know what, if we could have another woman who really wants to take care of kids, and you could be like the 1950s dad that you just come home from work, read your newspaper, while other people take care of the kids and make food and clean the house and stuff."
Meanwhile, over on the London Times front page, you can find "I have four mothers and 44 siblings: my life in a polygamous family/Janet Zitting of St George, Utah, went viral for discussing her childhood growing up in a sect. She reveals why she left" ("In our Church girls and boys are not allowed to date, kiss or even hold hands.... When you turn 18, girls have to go and see the sect leaders — a group of older men — and give them the name of a male church member you think you should marry. If you didn’t have anyone in mind, you’d be assigned one. The elders then asked God who the right choice was and told the bride-to-be her fate").
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All these articles in the NYT that you seem to be fascinated with, specifically regarding polyamory, non-monogamous lifestyles remind me of those white rat experiments in Psych 101 in which overcrowding in the rat test population tended to result in random, indiscriminate, hyperactive behavior regarding both sex and violence. It's decades later. I never forgot it. And it still appears to be very educational regarding the core leftist environment: crowded urban centers, the NYT/WaPo/LAT, and the entire F-ed up Democrat Party.
I choose to bemoan the Yew Nork Times in general. Unfit even for the birdcage.
Check out the article or bemoan polygamy. I choose to do neither.
People - like Elisabeth Sheff - that are interested in polyamory never look the way polyamory's 'marketeers' say they look.
I like novelty. I also like my wife whom I've been with since she was 17. Weird.
I should add that was 34 years ago. It would be funny if now she were 19 or something.
"When do you remember hearing the word “polyamory” for the first time? I was driving home from grad school listening to National Public Radio, as I always did when I was in the car."
That figures!
There's lots of mental illness on the Left. And they constantly rationalize and normalize their mental illness so that they can feel better about themselves. With guys who support polyamory, they just want to have sex with lots of women. That's it.
I supported the bill in NE that stopped parents from getting sex change operations on their minor children. For that, I was called a pervert and being obsessed with children's genitals. I was actually trying to protect children from a lifetime of pain and suffering simply because a parent was mentally ill.
We see the same thing with Fauci. This guy paid for the modified virus that the ChiComs released on the world - killing millions - and the Dems defend him to this day because they could get power and money.
The Left and Right are too far apart to agree on much these days. The Left is full of the mentally ill. Why would the Right agree with crazy people?
One of my kids had a job in Salt Lake City for a while. It's a truly bizarre place, people that present as so ultra-normal that they look weird, in a time-warpy way, and then the rest really are weird, and look that way, in that leather-wearing, neon hair, body pierced tatted up way. There's no middle ground, it would seem.
My kid found the Mormon side of SLC impenetrable, as far as the co-workers went. I've worked with some Mormons, and generally they are so behaviorally conditioned they make good citizens, as Americans and as net positive contributors to society, in being well-prepared and conscientious. But beneath that exterior, man. Makes you shake your head a lot.
"When you turn 18, girls have to go and see the sect leaders — a group of older men — and give them the name of a male church member you think you should marry."
And when the boys turn 18 most of them are disposed of like newly hatched male chicks at a Tyson factory by 'sect leaders'.
Scratch out the modern language: "People who are into harems really appreciate the resources they receive by living in the King's palace and having access to all those lovely foods. People who serve as an Emperor's concubine have a great life until he dies, as they then must die."
This calculus isn't new, and the tradeoffs are not either. The majority of people with European ancestry descend from kings, as the kings had a huge fraction of the children.
A novel green deal.
Sigh. The NYT again proves that the media are always looking for anything out of the ordinary that they can use to boost circulation (or nowadays clicks).
“ generally they are so behaviorally conditioned they make good citizens, as Americans and as net positive contributors to society, in being well-prepared and conscientious. But beneath that exterior, man. Makes you shake your head a lot.”
Have you ever really met or talked to an LDS (FKA Mormon) person? Hard for me to get how you think they are “ behaviorally conditioned.” They have just as much free will and choice options as you or anybody else does. They just choose to try to live by principles that avoid a lot of problems and correspondingly bring a measure of peace. this is like an 80 did you think that merciful and just societies are built on o or little individual self-control?
>>"When you turn 18, girls have to go and see the sect leaders — a group of older men — and give them the name of a male church member you think you should marry."<<
And in some documented cases, get sampled by some of those older men, IYKWIMAITYD.
Oh, crap, she's ugly. And fat. And I assume Dean Wormer's advice to Flounder applies to her.
"𝘐 𝘸𝘢𝘴 22, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘐 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘨𝘦, 𝘥𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘐 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘴𝘶𝘱𝘦𝘳 𝘤𝘳𝘶𝘴𝘩𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘰𝘯." So we know right off that like the brain in Young Frankenstein- she's abby normal. Even today most of the women I know, regardless of age, have never dated another women. So should normal people believe the conclusions of an abby normal person? No, Regardless of how many degrees they have.
Societies can be either monogamous or non-monogamous. History has shown that monogamous societies are where men and women are most equal in rights, though they may have different societal roles, and in non-monogamous societies- women are always relegated to second class status. Always.
Polyamory as this woman describes exists in a very small subset of the population. The children who grow up in such relationships suffer all the same psych problems children of homosexual parents do. Greater use of tobacco, alcohol, and other mind altering substances.
Not going to bother reading about the LDS sect in Utah mentioned in the other referenced article. It's going to tell the same story of all the splinter sect of that church. A male dominated society where women have close to zero control over their lives.
Went to a birthday party for my then 6 year old's friend. Bright 1st grader, top of the class, like my son. At the party met the mother and the child's several siblings- all from different father's. Polyamory! Writ large! All the other women there also had multiple baby daddies. That bright 1st grader eventually graduated at the bottom of his HS class and has been mired in poverty since graduation. My son went to college paid for by AROTC, did his 4 years AD, and is now in a low 6 figure job.
Not a big fan of the real world consequences of polyamory. Or, for that matter, serial monogamists like my father. Not a good thing for child rearing, and every society in order to keep going needs children who grow up to be the society's adults.
Should be ‘Did you think that merciful and just societies are built on o or little individual self-control?’
(My wife voice bombed my speech to text and ask me whether this was an 80s song)
"Heartbreaking? Really? It's dangerous bullshit from West. I don't regard this as another occasion to summon up empathy," said Prof. Althouse about 'A Famous Millenial Feminist's Heartbreaking Memoir About Polyamory'.
The lifestyle salespeople that inhabit the coast will sell you a lifestyle obsession and when it fails they'll sell you a sob story. Just so long as they're selling something like used-car-Jerry-Lundegaards upselling that TruCoat. Women are their biggest buyers.
Once a few months have passed they'll be back to selling you the same lemon. Crypto-bros wish they had such gumption.
Dave Begley said...
"...I supported the bill in NE that stopped parents from getting sex change operations on their minor children. For that, I was called a pervert and being obsessed with children's genitals..."
My response to that would be immediate. 'I wouldn't have even mentioned it had you lot not brought up your obsession!'
Yes, but do they dance, aggie?
I don’t live in Utah, but have many members of extended family who do. SLC is not a valid example of what Utah, or the LDS, are about. Not even close. And polygamy hasn’t been a “thing” for well over a century now.
IMHO.
Well said Quayle, @3:44PM!
“ Yes, but do they dance, aggie?”
One of the best dance clubs I’ve been to was in SLC.
I also agree with Quayle. I know nothing about LDS but have worked with several. I’m sure there are bad Mormons out there (as in any other group) but my experiences have all been positive.
Sounds very sect-sy.
Tell me this is about scholarship and not prurience
It’s been many years but in my 20’s and 30’s I knew more than a few women who were happily polyamorous. Not serially monagomous; three guys, occasionally even more, at the same time. They were polyamorous because they were attracted to more than a few guys and saw absolutely no reason not do enjoy what they wanted, when they wanted. There was nothing “wrong” with these women psychologically, they were sane, hard-working, decent enough people. My only criticism, personally, was that hey should have been more up-front about it; when I finally found out, I would exit. To the extent I remained aware of them later, they have had successful lives professionally, are healthy, and all eventually married, although the terms of their relationships are not known to me. There is one other constant: they all remained childless.
So the NYT is Pollyanna about polyamory, and those who do polly. wolly doodle all the day. ⁶
The journalists that I've known have had disordered lives disproportionately full of tension, insecurity, financial jeopardy, alcohol, drugs, and adultery. Do not take advice from journalists.
I think she's seeing what she wants to see. I was an Air Force brat, and though I have now lived in one place for as long as 12 years, I still get itchy after about 3. I've never actually lived in the town where I was born. I've kept a job for as long as seven years but had no qualms about leaving it. My first marriage lasted barely 2 years (I married the wrong guy, and much too young).
But my husband and I will have been married for 34 years this September and have been together for 37, and polyamory creeps me out and makes me very suspicious of its power dynamics.
And I know anecdote is not data, but I wonder if she actually collected data, or just remembered things about those happy, happy polyamorists that affirmed her beliefs about the cool people for whom polyamory works.
Hey razor, that’s not polyamory that’s promiscuity.
Stories like this make me feel pity for so many New Yorkers. They all seem so desperately unhappy, willing to find any stretch of green grass on the other side of the fence.
polyamory used to be known as "Free Love". Personally, i think the NYT's real agenda is to normalize polygamy. This was the natural state of mankind for quite a while. Several women get one piece of the highly prized alpha male, while the beta males get forgotten.
We got rid of polygamy, not because women objected, but because the beta males objected.
Valentine….polyamory is promiscuity with a theory behind it. And at a certain point I did get to hear the theory.
in Other Words..
girls with a High Body count are UNLIKELY to be faithful;
because: they are 'faster'.
which is EXACTLY what people have been saying, since: FOREVER
When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie
That's not polyamore?
When the world seems to shine like you've had too much wine
That's not polyamore?
𝘙𝘊𝘖𝘊𝘌𝘈𝘕 𝘐𝘐 𝘴𝘢𝘪𝘥...
...
𝘞𝘦 𝘨𝘰𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘱𝘰𝘭𝘺𝘨𝘢𝘮𝘺, 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘣𝘦𝘤𝘢𝘶𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘯 𝘰𝘣𝘫𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘦𝘥, 𝘣𝘶𝘵 𝘣𝘦𝘤𝘢𝘶𝘴𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘣𝘦𝘵𝘢 𝘮𝘢𝘭𝘦𝘴 𝘰𝘣𝘫𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘦𝘥.
We got rid of polygamy because the west adopted Christianity. Which was spread by male disciples, but taken up by females, who were the majority of church members throughout the first few centuries. And even today church attendance is majority female.
Why can’t the NYT ever publish something useful, like a guide to attractive school teachers on why and how they should seek the sexual services of older men, who won’t get them sent to prison for fulfilling their needs.
All I know is, when I became of age, my mother called me to her side and she said, “Meade, you're growing up now. Pretty soon you'll take a bride.” Then she said, “Just because you've become a young man now, there’s still some things that you don't understand now. Before you ask some girl for her hand now, keep your freedom for as long as you can now.”
My mama told me, “You better shop around (shop, shop), oh yeah, you better shop around (shop, shop around). Ah, there's some things that I want you to know now. Just as sure as the wind’s gonna blow now. Before you tell 'em that you love 'em so now,” my mama told me, “You better shop around, (shop, shop). Oh yeah, you better shop around (shop, shop around).”
At least, that’s what I thought she said.
This is the evolutionary explanation for why body count matters so much to men. If a man is going to spend his life raising, feeding, and protecting children, he is far more likely to pass on his genes if those children are his own.
Men don’t mind if a woman has had a small number of committed relationships in the past, it’s the short term stuff that is the problem.
I prefer my President to be a pedophile, not a player.
30 years studying polyamory? Sisyphus thinks maybe my gig ain’t’ so bad after all.
'...Hard for me to get how you think they are “ behaviorally conditioned.” They have just as much free will and choice options as you or anybody else does....'
'...("In our Church girls and boys are not allowed to date, kiss or even hold hands.... When you turn 18, girls have to go and see the sect leaders — a group of older men — and give them the name of a male church member you think you should marry. If you didn’t have anyone in mind, you’d be assigned one. The elders then asked God who the right choice was and told the bride-to-be her fate")....'
To me, this signals that there could be a dissonance in the room.
I've worked with Mormons before on long term projects and enjoyed the experience. I've worked with some of their missionaries in Africa, too. They stay within their own socially well-defined lines more than most, and as I said, make productive contributions to society.
I've seen how some of the Mormon businessmen move in SLC and it was perhaps no more ruthless than other places, but no less, either. Seeing an entire section of downtown that one side had invested millions into, shopping malls and apartments, being swarmed by homeless people by the hundreds, camping out and taking over whole blocks while they were provided 'charity' meals, beds, care, to make sure they stayed in the neighborhood - by the competition, wanting to see that investment destroyed.
But I would never accept that a church leader is going to decide who my daughter is going to marry, or even allow them to suggest it in a formal hearing, under its banner of authority. I don't have a problem with people abiding this religion, and playing by those rules if they choose to. I'm not a critic of Mormon values, but that doesn't make me want to invest in them, either.
This was the natural state of mankind for quite a while. Several women get one piece of the highly prized alpha male, while the beta males get forgotten.
You keep trying out for Team Islam and they never pick you.
>"steppin' razor said...
>....There is one other constant: they all remained childless.
Having contracted a number of STDs often results in infertility. That may be something that correlates with these women.
Polyamory and polygamy may be getting a rest. The Democrats' senatorial nominee in Maine has had kids with his partner, his second cousin. Incest is the next frontier.
Where are the articles about the STI rates among the polyamorous?
I suspect people that would have failed the "marshmallow test" as 4 year-olds are also more likely to be non-monogamists.
I have an average life speed on average. But it is not constant. There is a high max and a high min. As we said in the mines,
“uphill slow
And downhill fast.
Rock in the Box and safety last.”
So on each item I was up and down at different speeds. Some things I did early and some late. It would seem like that if you categorized the things you do early and late say early speech, early math/reading, early first sex, graduate, break a certain income level get married and such and made a representative data set you would understand people better. There should be a branch of science that does this.
I think Aggie is under the false delusion that what he sees and thinks of as the Mormons is the same as this polygamy group.
It's not. Wilford Woodruff, fourth prophet, ended polygamy in 1890, as part of the conditions for Utah becoming a state. These modern day polygamy groups are apostate groups that get lots of press but don't have any real sway and have been long since excommunicated.
This "polyamory" will not work, because it's all built on selfishness and lust. The Church learned a great deal, and just like communal living, the chief lesson learned was this: Polygamy and also communism only actually works with people who are so dedicated to being followers of God that they have essentially overcome the natural human tendencies for jealousy and greed.
Since that is pretty darn rare in human history that a society has done that, communism and polygamy rarely work out. So if you want such a society, merely convert everyone to Christianity, have them actually learn and live it to the fullest, and then, maybe, a communal society will work.
@Althouse I'm happy you provided a comments section when the NYT didnt. I never read NYT articles, just the comments to lnow what the rest of the world is thinking. Of course the Althouse commentariat is a different world ...
I think we should all be like the St. George, Utah people and do exactly what God tells someone else to tell us to do.
I’ve always preferred the “many wonderful people” theory of romantic love to the “one perfect person” theory — in large part because I don’t believe that every romantic relationship that ends before one of the partners dies counts as a failure.
Yet the perfect person found me, and we’ve been married nearly thirty years.
The human soul is designed to love -- and then sometimes hate -- one person. Children create eternal bonds with their parents. They're the ones committing to *better or worse.*
Anything other is digging to the bottom of the Lucky Charms box to find a fake tattoo.
Enigma said...
…The majority of people with European ancestry descend from kings, as the kings had a huge fraction of the children.
WE WUZ KANGZ!!!
For what it's worth, I didn't mention polygamy in the context of Mormons for the simple reason that I wasn't thinking about polygamy in the context of Mormons. It didn't occur to me to connect them, because it's a historical artifact. Y'all be projectin'.
I prefer to just ignore "wisdom" from anyone that claims to have 4 mothers, because no you don't.
Serial monogamists live fast. Polyamorists? It's hard to say. Some ancient emperor with a massive harem was just repeating experiences and not necessarily craving new ones. Mormons don't seem like very fast livers either.
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