"... they have no idea what they'll do with their diploma once they graduate, they have no particular interest in the program they're in.... My own son was ... pretty lost, after struggling in studies to be a software developer (constantly at home, alone, in front of a computer), then working in customer support for an insurance company (constantly at home, alone, in front of a computer). It wasn't that he couldn't do the work, but he procrastinated, felt many tasks were pointless, and just wasn't happy. But his dad and I both have PhDs and his sister is an MD, and it seemed he felt he 'should' be in university. Then he found out about an opportunity to train as a baker. 8 months of classes and practice in a very good gov't run program (free), then a month as a trainee at a bakery. He lucked into a popular local artisanal place, very well known for their baguettes, croissants and sourdough. They hired him as soon as he was finished, and he's SO HAPPY there! He's interacting with others all day, he's always on the move and always learning, and can see the results of his work immediately (and eat it too!)...."
From a comment at the NYT, on the article "Mom, Dad, I Want to Be a Welder/Gen Z is increasingly turning to trade schools in hopes of future-proofing their careers against A.I. But getting their parents and peers on board can be a challenge."
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৯২টি মন্তব্য:
"..They don't feel like they were 'made for school'..."
"... they have no idea what they'll do with their diploma (IF) they graduate, they have no particular interest in the program they're in...
..But ..it seemed he felt he 'should' be in university..."
this Just SHOWS, how important College is!
take a not very bright person..
make them take classes they Don't want (or understand)..
all for a job they Won't like, or do well at (OR make Any Money at)..
I KNOW, this 'sounds bad', but your Missing the GOOD POINTS
a) they will be HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars in debt..
b) debt that they CAN NOT (ever!) get out of..
and
c) college admins will continue to have THEIR high paying jobs
see? it's AWESOME! GO AMERICA!
The NYT stumbles upon a reality? Heresy! Witchcraft! Free Silver! FreeSilverReports.com!
By "people," the author means young men.
remember "Occupy Wallstreet"?
if you Listened to those people, their Real Complaints were that they were being saddled with crippling debt, for USELESS degrees.
Now, the Big Thing on campus is OUTRAGE!
against Israel, or against Trump, or against EVERYTHING
what are they Really outraged about?
being sent to a useless school, for a useless degree (IF they get one)..
and being saddled with crippling debt.
School is a scam
Career snobbery continues despite personalities and aptitudes.
There was an (in)famous high school career guidance poster back in the 1970s or 1980s. It has been scrubbed from the Internet pretty well, but showed a very greasy man holding a big wrench versus a woman in an office suit: "The value of a good education."
In graduate school I saw several children of professors come in to continue "the family business." Many of them hated hated hated the academic lifestyle or were not very good at it, and left within a couple years. One girl, a daughter of two professors, was also anorexic.
The post-WW2 conventional wisdom and career guidance resulted in those with the best IQ/SAT scores clustering into the same set of highly paid, high cost of entry jobs (e.g., medicine, law, engineering, academia, computers). But if one has ever worked with the trades, be they cars, agriculture, woodworking, manufacturing, one will quickly understand that the brain work is often the same for top performers. This is why custom furniture or cars cost a fortune. Stuff like John Deere service jobs pay very well but go unfilled.
It took me 5 1/2 years to get through mechanical engineering BS. For my first two years of engineering school, I went full time. Then I went to work full time and school part time. For the first year, I was a FORTRAN programmer at a local engineering firm. The last 2 1/2 years I worked at an R&D facility for a cooling tower manufacturer. My education would’ve been so much different if I had only been in the classroom for 4 years. Hands on experience is great education.
"felt many tasks were pointless"
A huge number of white collar tasks are pointless, but don't tell the chicks in HR.
It’s really the work ethic. My two oldest grandchildren, from two of my children, have completely different attitudes towards work. One is a STEM graduate in a specialized field. Stays at home waiting for the phone to ring for a high paying job. Going on 2 years now. His parents both work for non-profits.
The other is still in college as full time student, worked evenings through the school year. Landed an internship in his field (finance) for the summer. His parents both work for evil profit making companies. Coincidence?
Mike Rowe agrees with this message.
A few years ago i had a conversation with a man at the gym. He was helping disadvantaged young men find their way. He was extremely frustrated by public education's push to put everyone through higher education.
Also, we used to put these kinds of mem into the military. They have a system for figuring out what their skills are.
"But getting LIBERAL parents and peers on board can be a struggle." FIFY, NYTimes
Mike Rowe Works Foundation.
@Joe Bar: "Also, we used to put these kinds of mem into the military. They have a system for figuring out what their skills are."
That was first called the IQ test, and then after DEI/Equity protests of the 1960s to 1970s, an aptitude test. The military developed these expressly to sort out random draftees and volunteers. They work very well, and it keep those out who are combat liabilities per the need for too much guidance and protection from others.
https://www.officialasvab.com/researchers/history-of-military-testing/
I'm glad the parents, in spite of their PhD's, have had the wisdom to see that their son was miserable, and be supportive of him finding his happiness in a trade. But this story is just another in another series of the Progressives wanting to crack the code, find the new 'Joe Rogan', find the new sympathetic characters that they can pretend to understand, in order to get at their vote.
The vast amount of work performed that keeps civilization functioning is done by men without college degrees.
Funny story about my above hustling grandson. Over the summer while still in high school, he got a job as a ticket taker at the community swimming pool. He found out the lifeguards made a lot more money. He got his senior life saving badge and became a lifeguard.
After I retired from my academic career (at a college that charges $70,000 per annum), I took a welding class at the local community college. Twelve weeks and $256 tuition (plus about $400 for PPE and tools, both covered for “low income” students) later, you walk out an AWS Certified Welder, and into any number of entry level welding jobs at >$25.00/hr, with a virtually unlimited earning potential as skills grow with experience. AI can do almost all of the work of an attorney, but can’t lay a sound overhead bead on an 8-inch steel pipe.
"A huge number of white collar tasks are pointless, but don't tell the chicks in HR."
*Somebody's* got to put Powerpoint slide presentations together and attend all those conferences and workshops.
That’s great. How many attorneys junior investment bankers, other gogo corporate types quit those fields to chase their dream of….doing what this guy is doing? I know it’s definitely not zero…
The next step to follow the trade school learning is to offer part-time entrepreneurship training to those who want to expand in that direction.
There are 400,000 open positions in the submarine manufacturing industry, with salaries at $120k, mostly welding I believe.
@baghdadbob:
Security clearances can be a hard stop for military-related jobs. Prospects must agree to live by a bunch of rules, and have lifestyle (drugs), finance, foreign family vulnerability, and citizenship checks.
Construction and agriculture in the US employ a lot of people where this is less of a concern.
After 5 years in 3 majors at two different colleges, I finally quit and got a job in metalworking. Spent my days grinding metal for $7/hr and worked nights for free writing code and designing products. I can't say I ever made much use of the college. It was what I learned after leaving that really paid off. I could concentrate my time learning what I needed. I stopped looking for a career and built my own. School can be frustrating when you spend so much time doing things you know are not making you stronger, but just checking boxes. I always wanted to just skip ahead to the next chapter - not write a paper about the last one. I ended up in the same field as my parents and grandparents had worked - fabricating metal. Of course, the men, but Mom was a welder, and even Grandma was a rivet heater and crane operator during WWII. Genetics wins.
US College is not worth it. Unless you want to be thoroughly indoctrinated into woke leftist hot garbage, Evil Neo-Marxist communism, and of course a healthy dose of Israel hate/ Jew blame, & lies .
In the 1970sI attended Electronics night school at what was then Madison Area Technical College, after deciding Law School was not for me. My class was full of fellow veterans on the GI Bill whose aspirations had been changed by their time in the service. We graduated into the onset of cell phones and personal computers, so none of us missed any meals.
My oldest (22) is a consumate bookworm and ended up with a full scholarship to a prestigious law school. They want her so badly they're willing to defer both her admissions and scholarship for a full year. But my younger daughter and youngest son have zero interest in college. The 18yo took HVAC at our tech high school her last two years and walked right into a great job. My youngest always said he wanted to be a pilot, but recently switch to carpenter/woodworker and has been accepted to the carpentry apprentice program. Basically half his day for junior and senior year of HS. No debt :)
I also left college for a free gov't run program, the USAF. The Air Force taught me all kinds of skills. At age 40 I retired from the military with full benefits including free health care for life. I worked for another 25 years but only at jobs I was really interested in. That monthly retirement check allowed me to be very selective about when and where I worked. The military is not for everyone but if you can do 20 years the benefits are awesome.
Geez, Wince, You are making me feel dumb!
That part about entrepreneur training is such a no brainer that I am ashamed I have never thought of it in all my years of advocating for trades training.
Best idea I've heard all year.
The former head of the PR Manufacturers Association is leading an effort to improve trades training here and we've been having a lively discussion on LinkedIn.
I am going to suggest it there.
John Henry
"it seemed he felt he 'should' be in university. Then he found out about an opportunity to train as a baker. 8 months of classes and practice in a very good gov't run program (free),"
"...in university." Govt-run program... Is the commentor in the U.S. or UK?
Anyway, good to see this. The political-academic alliance to drive every kid into college and into debt is one of the greatest scandals of the last 50 years.
…well, my ug alma mater was just voted top of the list for starting salary, beating out the ivies and near ivies and everyone else. A bit skewed as they don’t offer do gooder or woke degrees. They were also voted number one for…entrepreneurship.
"Gen Z is increasingly turning to trade schools in hopes of future-proofing their careers against A.I."
Forget A.I. This is a good development, period. We don't need more college-educated people and most people don't belong in college.
Being a virtuoso programmer is always eventually thwarted by management types.
I've been having an ongoing argument with my 15 yo daughter's high school, in what's ranked as the #2 district in all Kansas. It really got going when she was trying to select her Grade 10 courses, and the "guidance" counsellors kept pushing her, hard, towards the typical pre-university pathway.
She, in contrast, wishes eventually to be running her own business(es) but begin by working in someone else's enterprise for a few years to learn the necessary skills "in the field", other than from me, which is a good thing, even though I've been running my own reasonably-successful businesses for 45 years.
She was actually told "You're smart, and you'll be wasting your life if you don't get a university degree." They involved me [full-time single father] when she shot back "No, I'll be wasting my life if I run up a huge debt just for a stupid piece of paper you think I need so the school can feel good about its numbers."
I asked her counsellor how many degrees she had, and she boasted of her M.Ed. She took the bait, so I asked how much student debt she still had, and had she EVER worked in the private sector, let alone had to make a payroll. She snapped back "I got my degrees so I wouldn't have to do those things. Clearly you don't respect higher education." .... Oops. "Ma'am, I have four degrees in the hard sciences because I valued them for the businesses I wanted to start. And I never had a nickel of student debt."
Just before I left I said "I'll be contacting the school board about their distorted concept of 'success'. The real measure of your success should be: By age 30 what percentage of your graduates are a) gainfully employed (or running a business) for at least five years b) absolutely debt-free except (perhaps) for a modest home c) stably married and starting a family and d) beginning to save and invest for their future years, needs, and desires."
My daughter and I are working together to formulate a successful trajectory for the sort of productive life SHE envisions. Too bad the school is an obstacle. She'll be taking an on-line accounting course this coming year and is already sketching scenarios and decision-trees.
I went the other way--spent 6 years in a bakery then went into computer programming.
Baking was extremely satisfying (until management decided to switch to frozen dough products), but programming more than paid the bills, allowing me to retire early.
Plus working 1 AM to 9 AM can be a problem depending on when you plan to sleep and socialize.
A.I. can recall everything of value that you learned in college in under 1 second. Man, that was a bad investment. "For the times they are a changin'"
Follow your aptitude... attitude.
Making or fixing things helps satisfy the need for purpose.
I do feel for young people. They have to make life-defining decisions based on little experience and no knowledge of future events. Career counselors shouldn't be pushing an agenda as if they know it all.
Robotics and A.I. will take over most jobs in the coming decades. That will give people time to pursue other activities, and that's going to be the challenge of the future, one we have never faced before in human history. What will people do with all that time? We already have a big problem with unchallenged people and what they do.
To some extent AI is just the tech career bogeyman of the era. This follows Big Data, "Learn to code," smartphones, dotcom 1.0, the Paperless Office, the huge blinking-light HAL mainframes of 1960s sci-fi, and the old robots/automatons from before WW2.
AI spits back what it's fed, and if it's no longer fed quality data its performance falls off. Good new output gets memorialized, and other workers find a new career.
Father Guido Sarducci's Five Minute University
Anthropogenic Initiative (AI)
In 1970, my father, who had a physics Masters and was a research pilot, advised all his kids, "Do what you want in college, but get a certificate, like in welding, too." Also: "You can't get rich working for a salary."
I didn't follow any of that advice, and regret it.
Bart Hall. Thanks for that run down. Good job with your daughter!
The attitude of those who work off tax payer funding is often ...arrogant.
"I KNOW, this 'sounds bad', but your Missing the GOOD POINTS"
Won't someone think of the college professors and administrators.
"Dr. Raymond Stantz: Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've WORKED in the private sector. They expect *results*."
During my tenure in USPS management, I was detailed to one of the Postal Academies to teach a course for a few semesters. The instructor had returned to operations. Though I got excellent evaluations, I could not apply for the position I successfully filled because I did not have a four-year degree.
I have two masters degrees (should be three, but I timed out my first time) and got my first professional academic library job in my early 40s. After I retired I was emeritussed--yay me! I have also been honored with my state professional organization's highest award.
Professional librarians are faculty at UofM, and I also adjuncted from time to time in the history department; hell, even my BFA-holding wife adjuncted in the art dept.
So, our son was well aware of the academic life as an option, and dutifully enrolled at UT-Knoxville's selective architecture program. That didn't work out, so he moved back here and enrolled at UofM.
After a couple of semesters of half-assery on his part, I told him he should find something he likes and start working. To be clear, my wife and I NEVER pressured him to go to college if he didn't want to.
After several false starts he is working for a high-end custom cabinetry and carpentry shop, making stuff on the floor and doing some design work in the office.
He never got into student debt (we never even thought of getting loans), makes OK money, and is happy.
Success!
After 15 years in the USPS, with the last five as a Postmaster, I resigned to return to the culinary. Why? I hated the USPS and my jobs there. I loved cooking. I gave up a large salary, excellent benefits, and a potential great retirement for an hard, 10-12 hours a day job in the heat of a kitchen, with little or no benefits and about half of what I made as a PM. I have no regrets. You should do what you love.
MY son got a 50% tuition reduction at state schools because I was a state employee, and my wife and I contributed to a special account from which to pay the other 50%/
After he stopped pretending to be a student, we spent the money on ourselves.
Halfway through my masters in Eng. Lit. and falling asleep in class because my real job was getting in the way. So I finished my apprenticeship at the die shop I was working in part time and never looked back.
I tell any kid today to get in a trade. There is a shortage of automobile techs. Manual machinists, HVAC techs. There are all kinds of things to do that don't require a college degree.
A friend of a friend got his PhD in. . . .can't remember. Some sort of Earth sciences (probably 25 years ago) and refused to take any job outside his field or of sufficient status. Not sure he's ever been employed since.
I have a PhD in a relatively esoteric field (archaeology) but used my aborted computer science undergrad degree to support myself while working on that degree and afterwards.
I wouldn't exactly discourage anyone from college, but you have to weigh the costs and potential benefits.
Every few years when my son was in the Memphis public schools, a new black female wonder-working genius from far away would be hired as superintendent.
IMHO the worst was the one who decided that her and the system's motto would be, "Every student college-bound, every day."
Talk about stupid arrogance and delusion . . .
Bart Hall (Kansas, USA)
I found this a few years back. Best exposition on the value of a college degree (beyond the check off on the HR lady's spreadsheet). Author published 'The Plastic Age' (1924) and got run out of Rutgers for exposing college life. It became the first picture for Clara Bow
The idea is, of course, that men are successful because they have gone to college. No idea was ever more absurd. No man is successful because he has managed to pass a certain number of courses and has received a sheepskin which tells the world in Latin, that neither the world nor the graduate can read, that he has successfully completed the work required. If the man is successful, it is because he has the qualities for success in him; the college "education" has merely, speaking in terms' of horticulture, forced those qualities and given him certain intellectual tools with which to work—tools which he could have got without going to college, but not nearly so quickly. So far as anything practical is concerned, a college is simply an intellectual hothouse. For four years the mind of the undergraduate is put "under glass," and a very warm and constant sunshine is poured down upon it. The result is, of course, that his mind blooms earlier than it would in the much cooler intellectual atmosphere of the business world.
A man learns more about business in the first six months after his graduation than he does in his whole four years of college. But—and here is the "practical" result of his college work—he learns far more in those six months than if he had not gone to college. He has been trained to learn, and that, to all intents and purposes, is all the training he has received. To say that he has been trained to think is to say essentially that he has been trained to learn, but remember that it is impossible to teach a man to think. The power to think must be inherently his. All that the teacher can do is help him learn to order his thoughts—such as they are.
Marks, Percy, "Under Glass", Scribner's Magazine Vol 73, 1923
But few colleges seek to educated their students today in the true sense of the word:
Usage: Education, properly a drawing forth, implies not so much the communication of knowledge as the discipline of the intellect, the establishment of the principles, and the regulation of the heart. Instruction is that part of education which furnishes the mind with knowledge.
Make no mistake, trade jobs are usually harder than most, but that's part of the reward. Building things is always harder than not.
The future is in Robot Maintenance, especially if that robot is AI-enhanced
"There’s also going to be a huge growth area in the maintenance of any kind of computer system that has underlying AI in it, including robots. I think robot maintenance is going to be one of the biggest growth areas in the next 20 years. We cannot keep all the robots that we have right now working. And we’re not thinking about maintenance in a way that’s streamlined, that can pull from the resources of the typical socioeconomic class that’s doing maintenance now on regular forklifts. We’re going to have to figure out how education needs to change so that we can help people lift themselves up by their bootstraps."
Mary “Missy” Cummings, one of the first female fighter pilots in the US Navy and now a professor in the Duke University Pratt School of Engineering and the Duke Institute for Brain Sciences, as well as the director of Duke’s Humans and Autonomy Laboratory.
"Robotics and A.I. will take over most jobs in the coming decades."
This will create new, unexpected jobs-we-didn't-know-we-needed-jobs.
Welder? I suspect that they chose the word, welder, because it sounds like a shitty, low class profession. Actually, welders don't really make that much money. Add to that the UV risk and the uncomfortable protective gear and it's not a great job. (My granddad was a welder for 50 years for the railroad. They gave him a lifetime pass so that he and his wife could travel whenever they wanted to, but he never used that pass because ha had gone blind from the welding.)
If you want a high paying, good job be an electrician or plumber. I also think that there will be an increased demand for auto mechanics in the future because modern cars suck and people are going to want to hang on to older vehicles for a long time. (Seriously, they're too expensive, too filled with useless gadgets, too expensive to repair (because of all the electronics), unreliable and they spy on you.
"I also think that there will be an increased demand for auto mechanics in the future because modern cars suck and people are going to want to hang on to older vehicles for a long time. (Seriously, they're too expensive, too filled with useless gadgets, too expensive to repair (because of all the electronics), unreliable and they spy on you."
We have a 15 year old Tacoma (base model, standard transmission) and a 7 year old VW Alltrack (base model, standard transmission). I've vowed never to buy another car. At 70 years old, I may pull it off.
Young people entering the workforce need to look not only into what interests them, but also what opportunities might present themselves. As Daniel Boorstin wrote in "The Americans: The Colonial Experience:"
"Few American men dared look to their inherited stations to define their callings. They had to look to their opportunities, to the unforeseen opening of the American situation. Where a rapid-flowing life informed a man of his tasks, he would be lost if he anchored himself to any fixed role. No prudent man dared to be too certain of exactly who he was or what he was about; everyone had to be prepared to become someone else. To be ready for such perilous transmigrations was to become an American."
A lot of this boils down to ignorance, ego, and "first stop" careers.
1. Good students respond to praise and those who push them to the highest level they can achieve. They end up with careers because they can, and jobs that others can't do. They may hate the work once they arrive. Many rationalize "I'm smart enough to get into this program and earn this tough/competitive degree. I want to contribute to the maximum of my abilities versus those who couldn't do it." In many cases this is pure ego, as the paper jobs/academic paths are often repetitive and highly cliched and the graduates have no chance of making any impact because their speciality is obsolete but the bureaucratic (e.g., HR/DEI) and grant money (e.g., sociology) keeps coming in.
2. Many stop in the family profession (e.g., metalwork, as above), and today, many get stuck in tech-heavy careers because of constant exposure to computers, phones, tables, and game consoles from an early age. They do not know about trades and non-computer work in being raised in cities and buying everything they own. If exposed to welding, tractor repair, or logging, they'd stop there.
Uh oh. JK, you really did it, now.
Known Unknown,
Careful there... We didn't know we needed all those bullshit HR jobs, either, and look what net drain *they* are on society.
IIRC, every course MIT offers is available online for free. You just don't get the shiny piece of paper when you're done.
If one is REALLY interested in something, there is no real monetary impediment to learning.
Well done Secretary Hegseth "Key DetailsPartner: U.S. Department of Defense (Pentagon / Department of War references in announcements).
Purpose: To address critical skilled trades shortages in the defense industrial base. The funds support the foundation’s Work Ethic Scholarship Program to train people for high-paying, “AI-proof” jobs in trades like welding, machining, electrical work, and other manufacturing/defense-related fields.
Announcement: Mike Rowe was welcomed at the Pentagon, where the $10 million grant was revealed to help close the skills gap, which the government views as a national security issue.
Quote from Rowe: “Closing America’s skills gap is a matter of national security.”
"
“ college is simply an intellectual hothouse. For four years the mind of the undergraduate is put "under glass," and a very warm and constant sunshine is poured down upon it. ”
That is about right, College has been around for 2500 years and it is the most well developed way to quickly bring kids up to knowing the canon of knowledge in a field. Much is for its own sake and not just for a job, and no more than 15% percent of kids really need or enjoy it. It is a luxury good in many ways, some use it as a pre adult joy ride, some like “expanding their minds” with esoteric learnings. Elite universities have approached becoming scam operations and the culture is now highly political. To many, college is a way to increase your status by meeting a selected social group for friends and mating, this part really works but can leave people expecting too much and disappointing many, college is not going to make you a high society butterfly without other qualifiers.
But for certain professions it is unavoidable, if you want medicine, law, engineering, research science, accounting, it is a requirement, regardless of reports of google hiring 18 year old video gamers for $500,000 per year. So choose wisely.
“ "Robotics and A.I. will take over most jobs in the coming decades."
This will create new, unexpected jobs-we-didn't-know-we-needed-jobs.”
Then they will take over those jobs too. You can’t outrun A.I.
There's more to life than poetry and premieres and pomp- there's dust and smoke and dirt...
https://youtu.be/2HZtZ1Jzjmc?si=JKkO4GhbrRRbKAyY
@Josephbleu --
TL;DR version
If the career path requires math and statistics, calibrated measurement devices, or working with dangerous chemicals or biological contaminants -- it pays well and is employable.
If the career path is a dream job that facilitates self-actualization, politics, critical theory, is a routine choice of wealthy dilettantes, and especially, has no math requirement, it's a vanity effort. Not employable.
I remember a cartoon showing a guy at a desk in a cube farm, with the caption "Unlike his Dad, who slaved away at a soul destroying dead-end job in a noisy, dirty factory, Bob slaves away at a soul destroying dead-end job in a well-lit air conditioned office":.
"This will create new, unexpected jobs-we-didn't-know-we-needed-jobs.”
Anybody want to take a stab at what those might be? The robots will be built and repaired by other robots. Maybe strippers will keep employed, but the actual sex work is gonna go robotic. No pimp abuse, no stolen wallets, no disease. If you are sufficiently skilled, you might be able to reprogram one and take it home like in "Pretty Woman", and you won't need to look like a young Richard Gere.
@bagoh20: See Blade Runner and the recent sequel Blade Runner 2048. Nothing but fakery, just robotic fakery.
" Nothing but fakery, just robotic fakery."
Hey, leave my ex out of this.
I enjoyed history and polisci classes as an undergrad, and history and library science classes as a grad student and have fond memories of those experiences.
I knew before I entered college that STEM was not for me. There are plenty of people in the world who do like, and are good at, STEM and I'm happy to see them thrive.
Something that's hard, but not impossible, to do without the university is lab work. I loved the labs in chemistry, geology, biology, and especially microbiology; best of all was environmental science, which was often just hiking or fishing with your professor.
A specialized or high demand welder can make more than a doctor. No employees, no office, no insurance, no public to deal with, and your education is mostly just a few years in a well-paid job.
"Something that's hard, but not impossible, to do without the university is lab work."
Even better is having your own lab. Not infrequently I would step back and think "I can't believe I get to work with all this cool, super expensive equipment."
Not sure about the "hothouse" metaphor. College students may be protected against the rigors of the market and of real life for four years (not all of them are, though), but the result isn't much lush intellectual growth. Many don't take to intellectual things at all, but even among those who do the drive and eventually the interest fades with time. The trivialities and pettiness and pointlessness of academic life eventually gets to people.
"I remember a cartoon showing a guy at a desk in a cube farm, with the caption "Unlike his Dad, who slaved away at a soul destroying dead-end job in a noisy, dirty factory, Bob slaves away at a soul destroying dead-end job in a well-lit air conditioned office""
Not unlike the Monty Python sketch.
Mum How are you liking it down the mine, Ken?
Ken Oh it's not too bad, mum... we're using some new tungsten carbide drills for the preliminary coal-face scouring operations.
Mum Oh that sounds nice, dear...
Dad Tungsten carbide drills! What the bloody hell's tungsten carbide drills?
Ken It's something they use in coal-mining, father.
Dad (mimicking) 'It's something they use in coal-mining, father'. You're all bloody fancy talk since you left London.
Ken Oh not that again.
Mum He's had a hard day dear... his new play opens at the National Theatre tomorrow.
Ken Oh that's good.
Dad Good! good? What do you know about it? What do you know about getting up at five o'clock in t'morning to fly to Paris... back at the Old Vic for drinks at twelve, sweating the day through press interviews, television interviews and getting back here at ten to wrestle with the problem of a homosexual nymphomaniac drug-addict involved in the ritual murder of a well known Scottish footballer. That's a full working day, lad, and don't you forget it!
Mum Oh, don't shout at the boy, father.
Dad Aye, 'ampstead wasn't good enough for you, was it? ... you had to go poncing off to Barnsley, you and yer coal-mining friends. (spits)
After her kids were in school, my late wife went to vocational school to become a chemistry lab tech. She had a rewarding career in the food industry.
Never did get my four-year degree. Paying my own way opened my eyes to what I really needed to do during those early years.
Now, if they had Running Start when I was in HS? I would've easily had enough money to do the two years at college and who knows what would've happened.
Semi-retired since 2001, so I guess it worked out anyways.
My daughter's first boyfriend is a really smart kid, great at math, wants to be an electrician. His mom made him go to college to be an electrical engineer. He's plenty smart enough for it, but he's miserable in school.
One of my daughter's best friends is brilliant. All A's. Tested into a magnet school. Can do anything she wants. She wants to be a vet tech, but first she is taking another year of high school (you can do that here--they call it a victory lap) so she can transfer into the vocational ed. program to learn auto mechanics.
Since my legal problems make it well nigh impossible to work anywhere near law enforcement, I have started looking at the trades. I am currently in a 3 D printing and CNC course (thanks, John Henry!) sponsored by buildsubmarines.com. Also have some irons in the fire with various trade union apprenticeship programs. I will report my progress here from time to time. CC,JSM
Bagoh: my second college roomate was a 45-year old welder and playwrite (good plays). She was the first female union welder in the South. She had to take the crappiest and dangerous jobs, welding the inside of paper mill tanks. But she could pay for a semester of school and rent and food by working for a week. I followed a similar path, restaurant cold prep, building metal structure booths, laying carpet and doing hard renovation and plumbing between and during school gigs. Kept me paid and sane. I steered many of my community college students into trade schools requiring citizenship certification (electric, plumbing, HVAC). They're thriving. She helped weld the electrical system back together in Miami after Hugo and confided that it was like a bowl of spaghetti, and it was a miracle there wasn't a disaster. She looked like Elizabeth Taylor and recited fluent Old English. What a gal. If I was a man, she would be irresistable.
A nuclear disaster, I mean.
This reminds me of the Monty Python sketch about the proletarian writer whose la-di-da son wants to become a coal miner. I posted too much of the script. It's probably hung up in the filter.
AI may give us more leisure (whether we want it or not), but will we know what to do with it? AI will be able to write, paint and make music and movies better than humans do, so what happens to those activities?
A specialized or high demand welder can make more than a doctor.
Knew a guy who was a commercial diver and certified structure welder. He did underwater welding on oil rigs and such. If he cared to work 50 hour weeks for eleven months out of the year, with lots of short-notice traveling and overtime, he'd have been pulling over 400k. Instead he took half the year off to play with his many big boy's toys and probably knocked down close to 200k.
I wonder what the sister is doing with her high paying, high prestige MD credential? I hope she is still balancing the gender equity numbers.
If I had to do it over again, being a plumber wins out over being an electrician. When a plumber finishes his job, the homeowners are overjoyed that the toilet is not still backing up and the hot water heater, which leaked all over the floor and left the household with cold showers, is new and in place. The same is usually not said about electricians. Usually people are willing to pay plumbers the asked-for money to solve a problem, while the electrician's bid is always too high in the eyes of the homeowner. My take. YMMV
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John.
See if you can get some shop time on a manual lathe. Not to make anything but to get to understand speeds and feeds with different materials and cutting tools. It can save a lot of time when programming CNC machines.
Marcus.
HVAC for me. On a hot day people will pay anything to be cool.
Gee, it's almost as if everything my teachers told me was wrong.
Rusty: agreed. The first hot day of the year and the first real cold day of the year in South Florida is when we discover that the HVAC doesn't work properly.
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