"... and its low-shedding, hypoallergenic coat, temper the poodle’s supposedly high-strung personality with a mellower breed, and then sell their hybrids for twice as much as poodles go for.... Online, doodles stir darker emotions. 'I love all dogs and own the best dog in the world. But my god I hate those fuckers,' one Reddit commenter said of doodles. 'We have one in my close family and I’ve never met a more neurotic dog.' Many object to the prices that doodles command; Much Ado About Doodles, for example, a Virginia-based breeding business, sells pretrained goldendoodle puppies for some fifteen thousand dollars each.... 'My AKC registered dog was way cheaper and came from champion bloodlines.'... Groomers complain about owners who, instead of troubling themselves with the daily brushing and regular cuts that low-shedding coats require, allow their dog’s coat to develop painful mats that have to be shaved off, then yell at the groomer for denuding their fur baby. A common clarification in anti-doodle discourse is 'It’s not the doodles I hate, it’s the people who own them.' Wally Conron, the doodle dogfather, has apologized for his creation. '... I released a Frankenstein. So many people are just breeding for the money. So many of these dogs have physical problems, and a lot of them are just crazy....'"
From "How Doodles Became the Dog du Jour/Poodle crossbreeds have grown overwhelmingly popular, sparking controversy in dog parks and kennel clubs alike" (The New Yorker).
Posts
57 comments:
The poodle community is particularly snappish
As are the poodles themselves.
"They have a dog I don't want! And they paid more for it than I would have!"
Everybody needs something to complain about, I guess.
@Althouse, so are you and Meade getting a puppy?
Our goldendoodle is a wonderful dog, as was his predecessor. In my experience, craziness and physical problems have been more common in the purebreds than the mixes.
"Many object to the prices that doodles command"
There's a sure-fire way to display your objection.
"It’s not the doodles I hate, it’s the people who own them."
In today's world, this attitude is ubiquitous.
(Labra)doodles are extremely common in urban areas, and yes, their owners likely spend more on the dog than others spend on a human child. They are so common that all sorts of personalities own them. They seem to be second only to French Bulldogs among fashion spenders.
The designer dogs that bug me are the miniature German Shepards, Labs, and others. Shrinking them makes them look like puppies for life, and takes away the tough edge of these outdoor dogs.
The Poodle itself was bred down in size long ago, going from a useful outdoor dog to a fashion accessory with bad puffball haircuts. Of all dog owners, poodle people have no room to talk about bad owners.
Two Goldendoodle owner here. Theo and Arlo. Black F1s. They're not crazy. And yes, you do have to tend their coats. It's really not that hard. Ours are quite wonderful. Energetic even past ten years. I totally understand this though and believe that way too many people got them because they were the Dog du Jour, not really caring how much attention they need. And that does make me mad because they're really great dogs. We didn't pay ANYTHING near $15,000. What a racket. Holy shit are people stupid assholes.
We were very happy with our labradors, but they did shed. So my wife chose a labradoodle as our last puppy (more than a decade ago, when they were still novel).
When we picked it up, the breeder was uncertain if it was male or female, so it had not been neutered. She took some money off the price for the oddity. How little she knew.
Our vet confirmed it to be male, and so castrated it. About five years later the dog became very ill. Long story short, it had been a hermaphrodite, and so its ovaries and uterus needed to removed. (Now you see why I use the "it" pronoun.). The surgery was several thousand dollars, but the dog survived for another ten years. We never regretted the expense.
We had to have the dog shaved twice or three times each year, no big deal.
“ @Althouse, so are you and Meade getting a puppy?”
Absolutely not. I’ve never had a dog and I don’t want a dog. But if I did, I might get a poodle, and I think the doodle lovers are, as the second sentence of the post indicates, sort of using and insulting the poodles at the same time. Make a decision either embrace the poodle or reject the poodle.
Pedro: What is in this... man?
The Man: Poodle mostly... but it's got some Labrador in it.
Pedro: You mean we're smokin' dog shit?
Aussie Doodle here, nine years old.She is somewhat nervous. Extremely smart, very affectionate. Great with our grandchildren
@Althouse: using and insulting the poodles at the same time
I don't agree. Every dog breed is just a human-directed form. Without domestication and breeding, they'd all resemble wolves or coyotes or random mutts.
Inbreeding = distinctive traits and appearance. The newer doodles are working toward a different and possibly exciting breed future.
The converse includes English Bulldogs -- so badly interbred (i.e., mating among siblings for decades) that they have terrible bones and are unable to mate without human assistance. American Pitbulls (non-fighting) and French Bulldogs have filled the void.
Dog owners: "My Whackadoodle cost $7,000 from a very reputable breeder."
Cat owners: "I found my cat behind a dumpster."
(Mine came in the bottom of a boat from El Paso)
Years ago I had a Labradoodle that was perhaps the sweetest and least neurotic dog I ever owned. The thing about how they don't shed fur is horse shit, though. She shed all over the house.
I don't give a shit what the AKC breeders and dog-show types think about the pollution of their sacred breed conformation. Nor do I give a shit what the pit-mommy types think about buying a dog from a breeder instead of rescuing a vicious monster from the dog pound. I'd happily have another labradoodle, especially if it actually did not shed hair.
Any breed of dog, or breed combination, that becomes very popular will get backyard breeders who are in it for the money. As long as the puppies have the right look, they won't care about temperament or long term health problems.
If you want a good purebred dog, go to dog shows and talk to the people showing them. (While they're hanging out or at tables that they may have set up, not while they're prepping to go into the ring.) Let them know you are looking for a pet quality puppy and ask for recommended breeders. It's a good way to find out more about the breed to see if it really is the right one for you.
I have no suggestion on how to find non-scummy mixed breed breeders.
My sister is a devoted Lab maven and has had many of them. I find them on the slow-witted side, and they're a walking hair cloud, big shedders. I had a full-sized standard poodle in the household for a while, and it was a fine dog, very smart, not high-strung, good personality. It's the down-sized poodles that I think are neurotic as a rule, partly because they're mostly city dogs, maybe, and bred for size not smarts. The full-sized standard poodle is a terrific dog.
Now these retriever/poodle mixes, we've got a couple in the neighborhood, and they're both as dumb as posts. For some reason these examples seemed to have exaggerated the worst aspects of both breeds, then combined them. It might be because of the owners, poorly behaved dogs often are, but I would never get one, based on what I've seen of them.
Our present dogs are rescues, sisters, mostly Australian shepherds. Sire was a working cow dog, pure blood. They're short hair, don't shed much, and extremely canny, very athletic. When I go to do something, they seem to know what it is without me saying anything, and they respond in anticipation, usually correctly. Great with the grandkids.
I grew up with a standard poodle in the house. It was a fine dog. Nowadays, I have a pair of purebred beagles. They are purpose built to follow their noses and let everyone know about the scent they found. Otherwise they are happy playful bundles of mischief.
I don’t really have an opinion on the doodle phenomenon, but if you go on YouTube or watch Reels you’ll find a number of videos featuring veterinary technicians being quizzed about their least favorite breeds to work with and doodles come up an awful lot.
We had a puddle (AKC registered miniature poodle) growing up. Definitely neurotic, but not as bad as the smaller ones. Several of them at Trump in LV. She was a canine vacuum cleaner for food. I used to let her clean the floor in the kitchen after dinner, when cleaning it was my chore. My mother wasn’t amused. The rest of the family (all male) was. She would also eat the husky’s and cat’s food, when she could. Making things worse, she had a couple litters before being spayed (first was by the breeder to cover their costs, the 2nd by us, and there was no market for the puppies). So, yes, she was obese. And wasn’t hungry for human attention like other dogs we and I have had.
2nd cousins have had standard poodles, since we gave them one of those puppies 60 years ago. They seem pretty normal.
“ @Althouse, so are you and Meade getting a puppy?”
“Absolutely not. I’ve never had a dog and I don’t want a dog.”
Are the two of you closet Muzzies? Only explanation I can think of.
A full-size poodle is an impressive dog and a doodle even more so. However, after decades of dachshunds my wife wanted to try a corgi. Sweet, smart dog but, Jesus, he sheds. Cleaning the hair up will provide lots of light activity well into my old age. Hopefully.
Either using or insulting poodles? It’s just a dog, for goodness sakes.
Doodle "breeders" (they should be called proliferators) think they can sneak that poodle brain into any nitwit canine lineage, but it never works. The doodle is always dumber than its parentage. I have a doodle story that's too complicated to summarize. Suffice to say, a severely handicapped acquaintance called me about his labradoodle "service dog" (the quotes indicate potential welfare fraud on the part of the service dog trainers) that had evidently eaten an entire bottle of his anti-depressants. This call entailed a 70-mile round trip to a 24-7 vet clinic, done by me, and a $4500 vet bill paid by me (later reimbursed through a trust fund) to save its worthless life. As a service dog, that animal did nothing useful for its disabled owner, absolutely nothing.
We got a labradoodle puppy rescue three months ago. Very smart and very sweet. Learned how to sit and shake in one day. We hide 10 treats in the basement and she finds them all in a few minutes. Loves kids and other dogs. Doesn't bark or growl. The only negative I can think of is ..... Can't think of any.
But my god I hate those fuckers
That's how I feel about most redditors.
I have interacted with several Doodles. Two have lived across the street. I concur about them being high-strung, but they are also quite friendly. I rather have them around than most other breeds, but I'm also allergic to pet dandruff so prefer the non-shedding dogs. We owned a Yorkshire and kept her well-groomed. I prefer and recommend Schnauzers for those that want little shedding and hypoallergenic. A Standard Schnauzer isn't much smaller than a Doodle and I think better tempered. Schnauzers are quite active and want attention, but then they have that in common with Doodles.
Althouse said, "Absolutely not. I’ve never had a dog and I don’t want a dog."
It's been a few years but I recall your posting, occasionally, photos of one of your canine neighbors, what, just "stopping by" for a visit (and maybe a cookie)? Friendly neighborhood . . . nice.
Our bernedoodle is a great dog, and a healthy dog. There are a lot of doodles in our network and neighborhood--I've spent time with dozens--and most seem great to me. Certainly they do not display greater physical or mental problems that other dogs I meet. As was noted above, they do require care for their coats, and it's taken us some time to learn how to do that. But we have learned. Althouse's idea that there is something wrong with interbreeding of poodles and other dogs strikes me as a pose taken to generate an argument. It has about as much substance as her objection to men wearing shorts. Genetically they are all basically wolves--and most of the distinctive intra species traits they possess have been cultivated through generations of selective breeding. What's the argument for stopping now? Bad breeders are no doubt a problem, but in my experience that problem arises with every breed. It's not an argument against the breed itself.
The doodle next door to my AirBnB would extort treats from the weekend guests. He'd look over the low fence separating his patio from ours, and bark at the renters until treats were proffered. I wasn't mad. I was impressed. I supplied doggy treats for the guests to pay him off, and put his photo and modus operandi in the house description on the website.
On a lighter note...
The dogs we've had have all come from animal shelters - not free, but close to it, and all very good pets/family members. What more can you ask for?
Our dog is a goldendoodle rescue, and while I can see some of the complaints, I can't fully agree with any of them. He seems plenty smart, maybe too smart for his own good. On the excitable side from time to time but pretty low key around the house. We don't get out and mix much but I've never had any complaints from when he's been boarded, and he seems to get on fine with the dogs there. I tend to lean into the "it's the owner, not the dog" in most cases. We've got quite a few dogs of several breeds that walk around the same time I'm taking this mutt on his rounds and several make no attempt to control snapping snarling and tugging. He gets a bit up tight but we usually cross past ok unless we get startled.
Breeding? The whole concept suggests that while all dogs are dogs; not all dogs are alike.
There are reasons Chihuahuas and Dobermans have trouble finding work herding cattle or sheep. And, while Rottweilers and Pits have value, it’s not likely as playmates for your toddler.
God forbid dogs ever unionize, hire attorneys and form their own NGOs. Imagine Doggy DEI, Doggy Hate Speech and the Doggy Rooney Rule (before adding that fun-loving Lab to your family, you will have prove that you’ve considered at least one terrier, one non-stop “yapper” and one of the “protective” group).
I'll agree that bad breeders can ruin a breed. Cocker spaniels are one example--extremely popular in the 40s and 50s--and then pretty much ruined as snarly, snappy neurotic canines from hell.
As for the smaller sized poodles; Way back in high school I was a Fuller Brush Catalogue Boy in surburban/exurban San Diego. My boss's route took about a month to get around. Each afternoon after school I'd go to the addresses he gave me, leave a catalogue and make an appointment for hm to visit the next. Hey--it was a time when wives mostly stayed home. Most of the houses were on quarter to one acre lots. Lots of dogs of all types. German Shepherds, Dobermans, and the occasional Pit Bull would come charging up to me, and stop. The only dogs that ever bit me were miniature Poodles. Much later in life my aged parents had several Miniature Poodles. At least one of them was the nastiest critter I ever met. And I've owned dogs since I was a little kid--with the exception of a three year break for law school.
Our dog is a Chihuahua Poodle Terrier shelter mutt. Looks like a westie with Chihuahua ears. Single shaggy coat, doesn't shed. Smart and sweet, people even volunteer to board her for us.
The funniest thing about this is the conceit that poodles, because they are an official breed, are somehow more natural and have more right to exist than doodles, which are a Frankenbreed.
THIS IS HOW YOU DOG!!! THERE IS NO OTHER CORRECT WAY TO DOG!!!
The funniest thing about this is the conceit that poodles, because they are an official breed, are somehow more natural and have more right to exist than doodles, which are a Frankenbreed.
Everything but a "Rez dog" or dingo or maybe a malamute is a Frankenbreed.
Doodle hate, who knew that was even a thing?
"The only dogs that ever bit me were miniature Poodles." We had a mini Poodle growing up. Generally not violent unless provoked, but would go crazy when the mailman came to the door. So I guess that explains your experience.
My only gripe with the doodles is that they are EVERYWHERE. I can't walk 50 yards outside my apartment building without passing someone walking a doodle.
At my wife's insistence, we empty nesters are getting our first dog, a Golden Retriever/Cavalier King Charles mix. She wanted a Golden, but felt they were too large for our NYC apartment. It does seem a bit Frankensteinish to me, but I am going along with the plan.
My dog gets along with most people, and ignores most dogs. Doodles just seem dumb as a box of rocks to me. But a doodle didn't choose me. My mutt chose me.
Every dog I've ever had has come from the pound and I don't understand people who are willing to pay thousands for a dog (certain hunting dogs and herding dogs excepted - if the owner is really working them) My grandmother had a standard poodle when I was in Jr. High. Great dog but would only listen to men, so while with my dad and older brother he was fine, but he was a little bit of handful for me, at least until my voice changed. That said, as much as I have good things to say about standard poodles, being considered part of the poodle community is enough to put the kibosh on ownership.
All domestic dogs are cross-breeds, including the "purebreds". Breeding to take advantage of the positive qualities of various strains is how dog "breeds" came to be. If they had developed it 100 years ago and called it a "Curly-Haired Retriever" (already taken) nobody would bat an eye. (I say this as someone who is currently under the careful supervision of a purebred English Springer Spaniel--our fourth).
A rat doodle for a poodle.
“It's been a few years but I recall your posting, occasionally, photos of one of your canine neighbors, what, just "stopping by" for a visit (and maybe a cookie)? Friendly neighborhood . . . nice.”
That dog moved away, but he found us and we were friends with him for a while, and he’s gone from the Earth now. Meade wanted me to have the experience of having a dog and that was very nice of him. So I sort of had a dog in that respect. I don’t need a dog, and I don’t want the responsibility and work of having a dog. And I know if I had a dog I would end up talking to it all the time, and I just don’t want to be that person. Meade is prompting me to add to this post that he wants to be my dog and he wants me to talk to him all the time.
My daughter has a golden doodle. A large dog with the energy of a golden and the intelligence of a poodle is not a good combination in my opinion…
Meade wants to hear you say "Who's a good boy!"
"Let me be your little dog, till your big dog comes
Let me be your little dog, till your big dog comes
When your big dog comes, honey,
Show him what this little puppy done"
Carl Perkins, Matchbox.
"And I know if I had a dog I would end up talking to it all the time, and I just don’t want to be that person...."
Nothing wrong with talking to the dogs. They know more than they let on. Now, if they start giving you instructions, that's different, just ask Sam, the black Labrador.
I have very little experience with poodles but the one doodle I know is an extremely obnoxious dog. All the overly friendliness of a golden retriever but more hyper and won’t get out of your face.
Having any dog entails a sort of diligence and attentiveness that is beyond most people. If you do the work, you and your dog will be happy.
Don't blame only the breed.
Half of a dog's behavior comes from the breed.
Half of a dog's behavior comes from its personality.
Half of a dog's behavior comes from its age (young = wild).
Half of a dog's behavior comes from its training.
That's four halves, but sometimes a factor isn't as important as the other.
I've been calling them 'oodles' for a while. And yes, Oodles are everywhere. So much so that groomers are so used to working on Oodles that they make every dog look like an Oodle.
We have a Sealyham Terrier. Great dog. All terrier. Looks nothing like an Oodle, or even a Poodle. (Look them up.) But it took us 4 tries (over four months) with our groomer and his team because our Sealy kept coming out with a poofed up head and body- looking like an Oodle of some sort and nothing like a Sealyham Terrier.
Not a life-ending catastrophe. Just annoying and a telling sign that everything is Oodle these days. PS- we stay with this groomer because he did our last dog for years and...he's great. But the 'Oodle thing' has thrown him off his game.
PS- Ann, I do talk to my dog. And yes, some of my best conversations are with her. I'm one of those people.
A family friend, very wise and thoughtful, got the ugliest dog he could find in the pound. Despite its looks, it was a great pet. My friend said that dog loved him, because it knew there was no other way to get out of the animal shelter alive than my friend.
Ann described the PERFECT dog - one that loves you but belongs to a neighbor who feeds it, cleans up after it and pays the Vet.
Guilty as charged. I had a standard poodle, who was very reserved . Looking for a similar dog who would be more playful and affectionate, I chose a Whoodle. He’s 14 now, a sweetheart, but I didn’t consider that a Wheaton Terrier would have a strong prey drive. Woe to any groundhog who wanders into our yard.
My strategy to find reputable breeders is to get in touch with the local organization that is the Rescue organization for that breed. They have been aware of who are responsible breeders when I have asked.
Post a Comment
Please use the comments forum to respond to the post. Don't fight with each other. Be substantive... or interesting... or funny. Comments should go up immediately... unless you're commenting on a post older than 2 days. Then you have to wait for us to moderate you through. It's also possible to get shunted into spam by the machine. We try to keep an eye on that and release the miscaught good stuff. We do delete some comments, but not for viewpoint... for bad faith.