The Times doesn't elaborate the anti-plant argument, so it just sounds kooky, but what's the argument? Something about plants producing chemicals to ward off the creatures that would eat them? That was my guess, and, looking it up, I see that's the argument. To quote Grok: "Plants can’t run away or fight back, so they manufacture hundreds of different secondary metabolites (natural pesticides and toxins) as a defense strategy. These include things like: lectins (in beans, grains, nightshades), oxalates (in spinach, rhubarb), phytates, glucosinolates, cyanogenic glycosides, and many more. The influencers’ argument is that these compounds are literally 'poison' designed to deter or harm whatever tries to eat the plant. While humans have some countermeasures (cooking, our own liver enzymes, etc.), the claim is that even low-level exposure over years or decades still causes inflammation, gut damage, autoimmune issues, or other chronic problems...."
A lot of us humans, especially babies and young children, feel an instinctive aversion to vegetables....
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I would think that good tasting fruits and vegetables want to be eaten, presumably to spread their seeds w/o causing harm to the animal. Why else make them tasty?
After a medical scare, I've been eating a lot of raw vegetables to be "healthy."
I really hope I haven't been misled into harming myself, because vegetables aren't that fun.
Can we not get even the basics right when it comes to healthy diets?
The plant world is not as safe as vegans and vegetarians want it to be.
Some veggies and plant products tear my guts apart: Beans, peanuts, eggplant (lectins), chocolate, grapes/berries (tannins), etc.
If one is sensitive to latex (e.g., rubber gloves), then unripe bananas, avocados, and papaya are risky too. Cashews, mangos, and pistacios are literally in the poison ivy / poison oak family. Vegan "butter" is largely made from almost-raw cashews.
Meat, eggs, and dairy is effectively pre-filtered and high density nutrition.
I'm skeptical of the claim that plants can't run away. They choose not to. They read some radical stand-your-ground BS on the internet, and feel like they can just poison people at will. Plants do not have rights.
The interesting thing I have seen lately is analyses of Neolithic bones, that indicates an almost purely animal diet. That hunter-gatherer business? It was almost entirely hunter.
Since humans evolved for Neolithic conditions, and not for agriculture, that Neolithic lifestyle is very likely the healthiest for humans.
This mistake is broadly known as reductionism, specifically the fallacy of isolation, where a complex system is incorrectly analyzed by focusing only on individual components rather than their integrated, synergistic interactions. It is the failure to recognize that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, often leading to skewed perspectives.
APA PsycNet
APA PsycNet
+3
Key Related Concepts:
Reductionism/Fallacy of Isolation: Attempting to explain a complex whole exclusively by its simpler parts.
All-or-Nothing/Black-and-White Thinking: A cognitive distortion where situations are viewed in extreme, absolute terms rather than blending nuances.
Splitting: A defense mechanism that fails to integrate both positive and negative qualities into a cohesive whole, often resulting in "all good" or "all bad" extremes.
Subadditivity Effect: The tendency to estimate the likelihood of a total event as less than the sum of its individual components.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Los Angeles
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Los Angeles
+3
In essence, these errors occur when an individual cannot synthesize the "shades of gray" and instead focuses on extreme, binary components.
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
You are what you eat, so eat the rich. Who wants to be a plant?
’Most plants do not have the complete chain of amino acids that we need,' he said.
It would be more true to say “hardly any plants have the complete chain of amino acids that we need “. We are omnivores; herbivores are prey.
It drives the vegifascists mad, but remain persuaded by this: If God did not want us to eat animals he would not have made them out of meat.
More succinctly...
This is just as b******* as the claims that the Blue zone diets with low meat consumption are the best. The main reason the Blue zone diet works so well is because those people only eat whole food and not a bunch of ultra processed junk and sugar.
Core Components of the Diet (Approx. 100,000 Years Ago)
Meat and Animal Protein: Large herbivores, such as bison, horses, and reindeer, were hunted. Animals were likely roasted on open fires, and every part of the animal was used, including brain, marrow, and internal organs.
Plants and Foraging: A wide variety of gathered foods were consumed, including tubers (similar to carrots or potatoes), wild nuts (pine nuts), wild seeds, berries, fruits, and mushrooms.
Starchy Foods and Cooking: Evidence from this period indicates early cooking and processing of starchy roots and wild grass seeds, which were often ground or pounded to reduce bitterness and increase digestibility.
Aquatic Resources: For groups living near water, fish and shellfish, such as mussels, were a significant source of nutrients.
University of Liverpool
University of Liverpool
+5
However, based on studies of Paleolithic nutrition and isotopic analysis, estimated macronutrient intakes suggest a diet with significantly higher protein, lower carbohydrates, and higher fiber compared to modern Western diets.
National Institutes of Health (.gov)
National Institutes of Health (.gov)
+1
Estimated Macronutrient Percentages (Based on Energy/Calories)
Protein: 25% – 35%
Fats: 30% – 58%
Carbohydrates: 20% – 40%
National Institutes of Health (.gov)
National Institutes of Health (.gov)
+2
Key Characteristics of the Diet
High Variability: While some models suggest a 50/50 split between plants and animals, the ratio varied wildly, with colder European climates necessitating a much higher animal-based (meat/fat) intake.
Protein and Fat: Early humans typically consumed leaner game, but they specifically targeted fat-rich organs and bone marrow, often leading to a high-fat intake.
Carbohydrates: Contrary to strict modern Paleo diets, early humans consumed significant carbohydrates, primarily from wild, uncultivated vegetables, fruits, tubers, and honey.
Nutrient Intake: Fiber intake was exceptionally high, potentially 100 grams per day compared to the modern 15 grams.
Howard covers it all, from 'you people' to 'those people'.
"... he denigrated vegetables. 'Most plants do not have the complete chain of amino acids that we need,' he said." But is it true? Seems like a key point. Our hostess took the time to check. The NYT with layers and layers of fact checkers and editors.... (sometimes I crack myself up)... not so much.
Curiosity killed the cat. Apparently NYT staff believe they contain cat DNA and are not taking any chances.
The overall average calorie consumption for ancient humans was approximately 2, 500-Kcals. If protein is 30% of those calories, that's 190 g per day. Most health influencers are recommending up to 2.2 g per kilogram of body weight protein for optimal health.
I'll stick with a caveman oriented omnivore diet
The biggest reason to avoid legumes and grains that they are more likely to contain glyphosate and glyphosate breakdown products.
The things we put into all our foods, whether animal, vegetable, or mineral, are probably worse than any primitive defenses plants could come up on their own.
Kennedy hasn’t gone that far, though at the Annual Meat Conference, he denigrated vegetables. 'Most plants do not have the complete chain of amino acids that we need,' he said."
Actually, NO plants have the complete set of amino acids humans need to live, only animal products have that.
A lot of us humans, especially babies and young children, feel an instinctive aversion to vegetables....
There is a human gene that, if you have a working copy, vegetables taste bitter. ~1/3 of Americans have no working copy. The rest start out inherently not liking vegetables
Somewhat off-topic, but Howard, can you explain the +1, +5 things that you put into many of your posts? I feel like I am missing something.
@Lazarus on 'primitive' plant defenses:
Nope, the natural defense are as bad as they come. These include include hemlock (fatal poison), deadly nightshade (fatal poison), cyanide (fatal poison), tobacco (cancer), etc.
https://www.britannica.com/story/7-of-the-worlds-deadliest-plants
Jimson weed (Datura stramonium) is notorious for people's eforts to use it as a drug and its severe harms.
Animals and plants: them are good eatin'.
Even without all the food additives.
The number of plant toxins that will kill you far outweighs the number of animal toxins available.
People who drink lots of green juice have an increased risk of kidney stones due to the high levels of oxalates in spinach, swiss chard, and other dark, leafy greens. (Surprisingly, kale has much lower levels.)
No need to get all sciency. Just look at vegans. That's all you need to do to know that an all-plant diet is unhealthy.
back when i was working, i'd go through the salad line at work.
I'd get brocoli and cottage cheese with just a dripple of ranch on top
but i'd have to wait for whoever was in front of me. so i'd watch.
invariably, that person would pick through the lettuce, to Make Sure, that they'd Only gotten the iceburg (no cabbage)..
THEN, while i waited, they scoop up dressing..
One scoop
Two scoops
Three scoops
it was ALWAYS 3 scoops of dressing, on iceburg lettuce.
Then, they'd go to their table and boast about their "health lunch"
serious question: how many calories are in THREE scoops of dressing?
i'm assuming that the scoops were AT LEAST tablespoons..
they were gravy laddles, what ever That means.
anyway, what is the point of eating a salad?
what do YOU Think you're accomplishing with it?
at the risk of sounding like an evangelical diabetic..
don't worry about veggies..
don't worry about meats....
don't worry about fats..
it's the carbs that are killing you
The +1, +5 etc just means there's additional references Gemini uses to answer my questions
If you don't supplement nor eat fatty fish regularly, you're in Omega 3 deficit. Grass fed beef doesn't cut it.
"One pound (approx. 454g) of grass-fed ribeye steak typically contains roughly 0.25 to 0.45 grams of total omega-3 fatty acids. While grass-fed beef has a better fatty acid profile than grain-fed, it is not considered a high-potency source of omega-3s compared to fatty fish. "
I eat a big leafy green salad everyday, with flax seed mixed into the dressing and a bunch of chopped up veggies added on top (onion, cucumber, tomato, avocado) plus walnuts, and if the dressing is sweet then I throw in some dried cranberries, blueberries, and cherries.
But I also 4 eggs a day, and plan my dinners around a big hunk of meat protein. Twice a week when I do my resistance training I eat big bowl of Greek yogurt for more protein.
I'm happy with eating vegetables but, I also think my meat and dairy intake is vital.
Oh, one other thing I've added to my diet over the last couple months is Natto, usually everyday. It has a longer lasting form of Vitamin K2 in it which helps with keeping calcium out of your arteries and in your bones and teeth. Plus it has Natto Kinase in it which is a natural blood thinner. Also, it is fermented so has some pro-biotic benefits.
"Chaffee, who received his bachelor’s degree in medicine, surgery and obstetrics at the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin ... "
Interesting ...
Why RCS England doesn’t award medical degrees.
RCS England is a professional body, not a university. Its role is to:
o Set standards for surgical training
o Run postgraduate surgical exams (e.g., MRCS, FRCS)
o Support surgeons’ professional development
o Provide research, policy, and educational resources
But it does not:
o Train medical students
... says Copilot AI.
The +1, +5 etc just means there's additional references Gemini uses to answer my questions
Ah, thanks.
Fair enough, Enigma. I was thinking more of beans, peanuts, tomatoes and other edible plants' defenses.
@Lazarus -- it's a matter of degree. Peanuts and sunflower seeds have lectins that cannot be destroyed by heat. Beans are often bad when raw but generally 'cured' of their lectins by heat. Uncooked kidney beans are simply toxic.
The deadly nightshade family includes potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant. Some people are bothered by one or another or all, but eggplant's adverse consequences are unfixable for many.
The definition of a safe food plant is circular and proven only by experience. Tolerance varies between people. Some do die from peanuts.
I'm surprised no one's mentioned something that caused an 'Ahah!' lightbulb to go off in my mind a few (5-15) years ago. Besides the vegetable poisons Enigma mentions (11:42pm), there are numerous things that humans find delicious that must have been evolved to be poisonous or at least repellent to other herbivores and omnivores.
What caused the lightbulb to go off: I remembered that nicotine is used to kill caterpillars in gardens, that chocolate is poisonous to dogs, and onions and some other common human foods to cats. (Not a pet owner, I may have some details wrong.) I suddenly realized that, hey, these were all evolved as poisons or repellents, but humans have such perverse tastes that we find them irresistibly delicious to eat, or in some cases to smoke. (The scientific name of chocolate is 'Theobroma', Greek for "food of the gods".) I suspect that coffee and tea and all the more flavorful herbs and spices (garlic, cinnamon, cloves, black pepper, hot peppers, and on and on) are also offensive to other animals that would otherwise eat them.
Poor Bobby Kennedy. He states a simple truth about plants, and the NYT says he's denigrating them. The truth shall set you free, NYT! Trust the science! Or is this one of those truths that we are supposed to pretend doesn't exist?
There are too many average Joes and Janes on YouTube and Instagram who have completely changed their lives by eating just meat - mostly beef - and eggs, with before, during and after photos - and not just photos, the whole journey cataloged on YouTube. Plus labs. It's purely science. And, Dr Chaffee is not just an influencer - that has now become a derogatory term used to discredit someone who doesn't preach the accepted narrative - he's a freaking brain surgeon.
You don't have to believe it, but don't criticize something you are not willing to consider or research. After all the so called standard American diet has worked out so well.
Go out in nature and gather up some plants and either cook them or eat them raw and see how you do. Try to find ripe ready to eat fruit that hasn't been devoured by other animals. I have a peach tree and a fig tree, I rarely get the fruit before the birds, squirrels and possums eat it. Not that I care anymore. The fruit and vegetables we consume now would be unrecognizable by our ancestors.
Cattle and cows eat grass and have multi chamber stomachs that turn it into protein and fat. I eat the cattle and consume their dairy in the form of cream, butter and cheese.
Plants enjoy co-opting animals into their reproductive strategies, such as pollenization (nectar) and seed dispersal (fruits, berries, nuts), but the vast majority do not appreciate being uprooted and boiled like a turnip. Turnips acquiesce, but only in exchange for cultivation, i.e., our arduous boon work done on behalf of our vegetable overlords. As for seed dispersal, most plants are very particular about who gets to eat their fruits and ingest their seeds. This is why most fruits are extremely toxic. Doubt me? Then go ahead and eat the white berries, I double-dog dare ya. Generally speaking, plants prefer birds to people. Plant toxins that can harm birds are quite rare. This is why we eat chickens and not hawks. Herbivores rapidly metabolize the defensive alkaloids that many plants have deployed against being eaten. Whereas those same toxins are often sequestered in the fatty tissues of predators, where they are slowly degraded. If you ever wondered why "bear grease" is often mentioned in folk remedies, it's because of those fat-soluble alkaloids. Don't eat the bear fat, but you might use it as an anti-microbial wound dressing.
“If one is sensitive to latex (e.g., rubber gloves), then unripe bananas, avocados, and papaya are risky too. Cashews, mangos, and pistacios are literally in the poison ivy / poison oak family. Vegan "butter" is largely made from almost-raw cashews.”
Could you do more there? What is the connection between latex and these veggies?
I ask this because her latex allergy helped flat line my partner, in the ICU. OR it could have been her allergy to iodine. But more likely latex.
She gets the same sort of anaphylactic response to fresh bananas. But not to pre-guacs (avocados), which she craves.
Latex allergy is a sneaky one. Many foods and objects may cause problems:
https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-is-the-latex-food-syndrome-83062
If bananas are an issue, I'd guess that avocados are contributing.
High Risk:
Avocado
Banana
Chestnut
Kiwi
Medium-Risk:
Apple
Carrot
Celery
Melon
Papaya
Potato
Tomato
Etc.
Grains are what we really aren’t evolved to handle, which is meat and fruits and veggies. Probably more fish though than steak. Look at our dentition and the length of our colons. Pure carnivores have short colons. Pure herbivores have very long ones. Ours are intermediate in length. We have apparently lost some meat eating dentition over the last million or two of evolution. You can, apparently, easily tell whether human skeletons were from before farming (and a grain diet) or after. The latter tend to be several inches shorter, and aren’t as robust.
Interestingly to me, the difference between the sexes dates back to our chimp days. Male chimps are the hunters, and, as a result, eat significantly more flesh than do the females. Well, real female, and not trans females.
“I remembered that nicotine is used to kill caterpillars in gardens, that chocolate is poisonous to dogs, and onions and some other common human foods to cats.”
Our dog eats almost any human food. We do though obsess about keeping chocolate away from her. Last night we ate well seasoned Chinese food. Quite a bit was accidentally dropped on the floor. Awhile later, I got the broom and dustpan out to clean it up. Whoops. Floor was almost immaculate. But that may be why she had a little diarrhea overnight. Over it by the time we got up. Our cat wanted nothing to do with it. He won’t eat rice if it’s the last thing on the planet to eat. Maybe some of the chicken, but didn’t have a chance. Dog got it all. We call her the Hogamanna(ette) (my partner’s father called her brothers that growing up).
Howard said...
If you don't supplement nor eat fatty fish regularly, you're in Omega 3 deficit. Grass fed beef doesn't cut it.
"One pound (approx. 454g) of grass-fed ribeye steak typically contains roughly 0.25 to 0.45 grams of total omega-3 fatty acids. While grass-fed beef has a better fatty acid profile than grain-fed, it is not considered a high-potency source of omega-3s compared to fatty fish. "
Omega 3 vs omega 6 is about the relative ratio between the 2 so your body uses more omega3 with less inflammation.
The problem is people keep eating omega 6 heavy food. grains and lectins and nuts. seed oils.
Plants.
Plants have been trying to kill us for millions of years. No animal ever eats more than 3 or 4 things. most eat one. they have digestive systems made for eating that one thing.
Our digestive system was made to eat red meat.
Achilles, now square scurvy with your claims.
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