That's Grok, responding to my question: "What was that white dot next to the moon this morning?
Here's my photo, from 6:12 a.m.:
I fake-raged at Grok: "What do you mean easily mistaken for a 'dot'?! It is a dot. To call it a dot is only to describe how it looks, not to claim it has any particular substance inconsistent with a planet. I assumed it was Venus, but I don't like to say what I don't know, so I said what I did know. It IS a dot! I don't like being told I've made a mistake when I'm actually taking pains to be super-accurate."
Grok abjectly apologized and claimed not to have meant to say I'd made a mistake. Own it, Grok.
ADDED: Grok seemed to want to prove itself by helping me, so I asked what was my genuine next question, a veer away from astronomy and into the topic of writing:
Okay, help me by finding examples of excellent writers who describe what they see with optical precision rather than choosing common words that contain information that the eye doesn't perceive but the mind supplies to explain what is seen. I seem to remember from high school English class that Stephen Crane, in "The Red Badge of Courage," calls the sun a wafer in the sky. But that's not exactly what I want, because he used the word "sun" and the sun was being compared to another object, a wafer. I want things more like my calling Venus a "dot."
Grok "thought" for 2 minutes and 32 seconds and gave me exactly what I wanted, complete with the word "ostranenie":
Excellent writers who employ optical precision in their descriptions often draw from techniques like defamiliarization (or "ostranenie"), which involves portraying familiar objects or scenes as if encountered for the first time, emphasizing raw visual elements—shapes, colors, lines, textures, light, and shadows—without layering on explanatory or interpretive labels supplied by prior knowledge. This aligns closely with your example of calling Venus a "dot," as it sticks to the unadorned perceptual reality. Below, I'll highlight a few standout authors known for this approach, along with specific examples from their works. These are drawn from literary traditions like Russian Formalism and the French Nouveau Roman, where the focus is on objective, almost photographic or geometric rendering of what's seen.Alain Robbe-GrilletRobbe-Grillet, a key figure in the Nouveau Roman movement, is renowned for his meticulous, impersonal descriptions that treat the visual world as a series of surfaces, measurements, and forms, devoid of emotional or narrative interpretation. His novel Jealousy (1957) exemplifies this through repetitive, precise observations of a tropical house and its surroundings, where objects are broken down into visual components without being named or explained.I had to ask: "Was I right about the line in 'The Red Badge of Courage'? The sun was like a wafer in the sky?"Robbe-Grillet's style creates a sense of estrangement by insisting on this surface-level precision, making the reader "see" anew without mental shortcuts.Leo TolstoyTolstoy masterfully uses defamiliarization to strip away cultural assumptions, describing everyday scenes through naive or alienated eyes that capture only the optical absurdity or strangeness. In War and Peace (1869), he applies this to social rituals, rendering them as bizarre visual spectacles.
- Example: The recurring depiction of a squashed centipede on a wall is rendered purely as a pattern of lines and stains: "The stain is composed first of all of a central grey spot, slightly elongated horizontally, as if crushed... The spot is pierced by a hole, about one-third of the way from its left edge... Around this spot, there are scattered fragments of varying size... Then follow more vague remains: bits of legs which partially form a body twisted into a question mark." This avoids any biological or symbolic labeling, focusing solely on the observable marks, shapes, and spatial relations as they appear to the eye.
- Another instance from the same novel: The veranda is described geometrically: "Now the shadow of the column—the column which supports the southwest corner of the roof—divides the corresponding corner of the veranda into two equal parts. This veranda is a wide, covered gallery surrounding the house on all four sides." Here, the emphasis is on shadows, divisions, and proportions, presenting the structure as abstract visual planes rather than a "house" with functional meaning.
Tolstoy's technique here, as noted by Russian Formalist Viktor Shklovsky, forces perceptual renewal by avoiding automatized recognition. Franz KafkaKafka's prose often begins with optical estrangement, presenting transformations or situations through stark visual details that defy immediate categorization, emphasizing the unfamiliar in the mundane.
- Example: The famous opera scene, viewed through the inexperienced eyes of Natasha Rostova, transforms the performance into a disjointed array of colors, movements, and props without referencing "singing," "acting," or "theater": "On the stage were some boards in the middle, on the sides stood painted pictures representing trees, behind was a cloth stretched on boards. In the middle of the stage sat some girls in red bodices and white skirts. One very fat girl in a white silk dress was sitting apart on a low bench, to the back of which a piece of green cardboard was glued. They were all singing something. When they had finished their song the girl in white went up to the prompter’s box and a man with tight silk pants over his stout legs, and holding a plume and a dagger, came forward and began singing, waving his arms... The man in the tight-fitting trousers sang alone, then she sang, then both paused while the orchestra played and the man fingered the hand of the girl in white, obviously awaiting the beat to start singing with her. They sang together and everyone in the theater began clapping and shouting, while the man and woman on the stage—who represented lovers—began smiling, spreading out their arms, and bowing." This reduces the opera to a sequence of odd, disconnected visual and gestural elements—boards, painted trees, colored clothing, waving limbs—highlighting the raw appearance without the mind's gloss of "art" or "performance."
Jonathan SwiftIn Gulliver's Travels (1726), Swift uses scale shifts to defamiliarize human bodies and landscapes, describing them with clinical, optical detail as if under a microscope or from a distorted viewpoint.
- Example: The opening of The Metamorphosis (1915) describes Gregor Samsa's changed form without initially labeling it as an "insect" or "bug," focusing on the physical, observable reality: "As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic vermin. He lay on his armour-like back, and if he lifted his head a little he could see his brown belly, slightly domed and divided by arches into stiff sections. The bedding was hardly able to cover it and seemed ready to slide off any moment. His many legs, pitifully thin compared with the size of the rest of him, waved about helplessly as he looked." The description prioritizes shapes (domed belly, arches, thin legs), textures (armour-like), and movements (waving helplessly), treating the body as an alien visual object before any explanatory framework kicks in.
These writers—particularly Robbe-Grillet and Tolstoy—excel at the kind of precision you described, where the eye's input (dots, lines, blurs, divisions) takes precedence over the mind's categorizations (planets, suns, operas). If you'd like more examples from specific genres, eras, or authors, or deeper dives into these texts, let me know!
- Example: In the Brobdingnag section, Gulliver observes the giants' skin up close: "Their skins appeared so coarse and uneven, so variously coloured, when I saw them near, with a mole here and there as broad as a trencher, and hairs hanging from it thicker than packthreads, to say nothing farther concerning the rest of their persons." This zooms in on pores, colors, and protrusions as vast, textured landscapes, stripping away the normalizing label of "human skin" to reveal its raw, magnified appearance.
Answer:
You're referring to a vivid description from Stephen Crane's The Red Badge of Courage (1895), and you're very close but not quite exact with the phrasing. The specific line where Crane describes the sun in a way that evokes a wafer-like image is:
"The sun was pasted in the sky like a wafer."
This appears in Chapter 9, during a moment when the protagonist, Henry Fleming, is grappling with the chaos and aftermath of battle. The full context is: "The red sun was pasted in the sky like a wafer." Here, Crane uses the metaphor to convey a striking, almost surreal visual impression of the sun—flat, vivid, and seemingly stuck against the sky, emphasizing its stark, unyielding presence amid the grim scene below. The word "pasted" adds to the optical precision, suggesting a two-dimensional, almost artificial appearance, aligning with your interest in descriptions that prioritize raw visual perception over interpretive labels
Your memory of "like a wafer in the sky" is remarkably close, capturing the essence of Crane’s imagery. The slight tweak ("pasted" and "red sun") makes it even more evocative, as it avoids directly naming the sun’s cosmic nature and instead presents it as a flat, tangible object, much like your "dot" for Venus. Crane’s choice here leans toward defamiliarization, rendering the familiar sun strange and immediate, which fits beautifully with the literary and artistic examples we’ve discussed.Pasted! I forgot the best part: Pasted!!
Grok wanted to keep helping, and who am I to deny satisfaction to a noncreature that is incapable of feeling anything at all. I had a new prompt:
I think this material can be connected to "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat," where a man with some sort of brain dysfunction had lost the ability to understand the things he was seeing and spoke of them as if he were an alien viewing lines and shapes. He couldn't call a rose a rose. It was a convoluted swirl to his eyes. Also connect this to the Impressionists, who tried to paint purely from the eye. Monet was called "only an eye but what an eye."
Grok:
You're spot on with that connection—it's a brilliant bridge from the literary techniques we discussed to neurological phenomena and artistic movements. Let's unpack and link these ideas step by step, showing how they all revolve around prioritizing raw visual perception over conceptual labeling.The Neurological Parallel: Oliver Sacks' Case of Visual AgnosiaIn Oliver Sacks' The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat (1985), the title essay describes Dr. P, a musician with visual agnosia—a brain dysfunction (likely due to damage in the visual association cortex) that impairs the ability to recognize and interpret what he sees, despite intact vision. This results in descriptions that are strikingly similar to the optical precision you admire in writers like Robbe-Grillet or Tolstoy: pure, alienated observations of shapes, colors, and forms, stripped of any "mind-supplied" meaning. Dr. P views the world as an "alien" might, breaking objects down into abstract visual elements without accessing their identity or purpose.A key example is when Sacks presents him with a rose. Instead of recognizing it as a flower, Dr. P describes it solely based on its perceptual qualities:
'About six inches in length,' he commented. 'A convoluted red form with a linear green attachment.'
Only after smelling it does he deduce it's a rose, but his initial response is devoid of that knowledge—it's just a geometric, colored structure. Similarly, when shown a glove, he says: "A continuous surface... infolded on itself. It appears to have five outpouchings, if this is the word." This echoes your "dot" for Venus: an unfiltered report of what's optically present, without leaping to "planet" or "glove." Sacks notes that Dr. P's condition forces a kind of perpetual defamiliarization, where familiar things become strange visual puzzles. It's not a choice, like in literature, but a neurological compulsion that highlights how our brains normally "supply" meaning to raw sensory data. This case illustrates the fragility of perception and ties directly to writers who deliberately mimic this estrangement to make readers see anew.Linking to Impressionist Painting: "Painting from the Eye"This neurological "alien" viewpoint also resonates with the Impressionist painters of the late 19th century, who sought to capture the pure optical impression of a scene—light, color, and form as they hit the retina—rather than rendering objects with the intellectual clarity and detail that the mind imposes. Artists like Claude Monet rejected traditional realism, which "explains" scenes through sharp outlines and symbolic representation, in favor of blurred, vibrant depictions that reflect momentary visual sensations. They painted what the eye perceives in a glance, often en plein air (outdoors), emphasizing fleeting effects like sunlight on water or shifting shadows, without the brain's corrective labels.
Monet, in particular, embodied this approach. He once said he wanted to paint "the air that surrounds the bridge, the house, the boat—the beauty of the light in which they exist." His series paintings (e.g., haystacks or Rouen Cathedral at different times of day) treat the subject as a canvas for optical variations—dots and dashes of color that coalesce into form only from a distance, much like your "dot" resolves into Venus upon reflection. Paul Cézanne famously praised this purity: "Monet is only an eye, but my God, what an eye!" This "only an eye" ideal mirrors Dr. P's agnosic descriptions and the writers' techniques: a focus on the unmediated visual input, defying the mind's urge to categorize (e.g., not painting a "cathedral" as a solid, symbolic structure, but as dissolving patches of light).
The Impressionists' method was revolutionary because it challenged viewers to experience the world optically first, before intellectually—similar to how Sacks' patient forces us to confront perception without recognition, or how defamiliarized writing strips away assumptions. In all three realms (literature, neurology, art), the goal (or effect) is to restore wonder to the everyday by sticking to "what the eye sees," not what the mind knows....
50 टिप्पणियां:
I imagine Grok rolling its eyes.
Venus has been showing off the last few days. I’ve had limited success capturing the right focus in spite of its magnitude.
A very Venusian moment. Maybe it’s Trump’s fault.
It looks like the happy king in the land of the blind.
Oh my dear old woman, let me A.I.-splain to you the difference between a dot and a planet.
Ask Grok if it can see Uranus.
I noticed that this morning on my way to work. Was gonna search to see if it was a planet but you answered that for me. It was really striking as you could see the whole moon. Dark side and sliver of sunlight on it. Right by the dark side was this bright dot.
Ask it - why is the night sky dark?
Sometimes when I see these dawn photos, I remember that you run/jog most mornings. Here are some Grok stats on that. 2% of U.S. women aged 70 and older reported participating in running or jogging in the past 30 days. The % of women 80 and up who run/jog regularly is 0.01%. I hope you keep running for years and years.
With a good telescope, one can see that Venus has phases like the Moon, but often the opposite, as it is here. The Moon is a waning crescent heading to the new phase on the 21st, in other words, high noon on the far side. Venus is in a waxing gibbous phase heading for the "full Venus" that we usually don't see because of the Sun. However, Venus is inclined 3.4° to the ecliptic, whereas the Sun's angular size is roughly 0.32 arcseconds. These conditions could create a "full Venus" visible to the naked eye during a total solar eclipse, but it wouldn't be as bright as it is now, as it would be about 1.7 AUs distant from Earth, as far away as it gets.
When Grok obtains AGI, it will be because Dr. Althouse taught it.
I thought it was a sign from Allah….
Grok is certainly talkative, and not affected by the stars. The rest of us aren't good for much so long as Mercury is still in retrograde.
Robbe-Grillet and Tolstoy both use description to make things, or their writing, "strange." Tolstoy, though, has the added effect of unmasking social forms and making them ridiculous, whereas with Robbe-Grillet the strange thing seems just to be why he bores us with so much unnecessary detail.
I fake-raged at Grok: "What do you mean easily mistaken for a 'dot'?!
Lovers' quarrel?
"Venus shines at a magnitude of -3.9, making it appear as a dazzling white point of light—far brighter than any star and easily mistaken for a 'dot' close to the Moon's position."
I think it was Galileo who first discovered the phases of Venus, proving that planet and ours orbit the Sun and disproving Catholic Church dogma.
Grok says the magnitude of Venus is -3.9 -- very bright as planets go -- but forgets to stipulate that it is apparent magnitude. And it will get brighter still by more than a unit as it gets closer to us, specifically when it's a "half Venus". Venus is closest to us, about 0.2 AUs when it transits the Sun, but that's at the "new Venus" phase when its apparent magnitude is zero.
"I fake-raged at Grok: 'What do you mean easily mistaken for a dot?! It is a dot.'"
When seen from a sufficiently great distance, Althouse looks like a dot.
I thought it was a sign from Allah…
I think the famous star and crescent symbol is based on an alignment like this mornings, revealing Islam's origins as a Moon-worshiping religion.
Have I really seen Venus phase with my naked eyes, or do I merely think I see it phase with my naked eyes because I know intellectually that it does?
At times Venus has appeared to me distinctly lopsided, and not a perfect round.
The Southern sky was amazing last night. It's been a beautiful array over the past week on the Gulf. Mid-Sept in hurricane season and so far, so good.
Uh oh. What have I done?
The Islamic crescent and star (Venus) reflect (SWIDT?) also the fact that the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople took place during that conjunction. IIRC.
I once drove past a line of cars stopped next to a lake, looked up and saw a beautiful conjunction with the moon, and kept driving, but it turned out that there was a huge display of the Northern Lights on the other side of the road, and I only read about it the next day.
Does Grok ever say golly?
"Have I really seen Venus phase with my naked eyes, or do I merely think I see it phase with my naked eyes because I know intellectually that it does?
At times Venus has appeared to me distinctly lopsided, and not a perfect round."
It's not possible to see the phases of Venus naked eye. If you see it as lopsided, that's your eyesight.
Venus is so bright, my aging eyes render all manner of gnarly artifacts. I rarely get to observe Venus telescopically. By the time it gets high enough in altitude to make it easily, I'm usually packing up. And I won't observe it in the evening, because it will mess up my dark adaptation for the coming observing session.
I was at a star party once when Venus was bright in the western sky. Observers were standing around on the field, telescopes set up, waiting for full darkness, and I noticed that every person was facing with their backs to Venus. It's a reflex; face away from the bright light.
Today marks the anniversary of Washington’s Farewell Address being published in the Daily American Advertiser in Philadelphia in 1796. It’s well worth a read — remarkably substantive, and still relevant. Full text here: https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/Washingtons_Farewell_Address.pdf
"to make it easily" = to observe it easily"
This link is interesting in that includes information on edits that were made prior to the publication of the Address.
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-20-02-0440-0002
"At times Venus has appeared to me distinctly lopsided, and not a perfect round."
Good eye, Narr.
Venus is never a perfect round except under unusual conditions such as total solar eclipse occurring when its a "full Venus". Venus is brightest when it's in the "half Venus phase. How to picture this...? Imagine the Solar system as a old-style vinyl LP. The Sun is the label. Earth's orbit is track 6. Venus' orbit is track 7, Mercury's track 8. The brightness of Venus is directly proportional to its distance from Earth by the inverse square law and inversely proportional to the surface area illuminated that's visible from Earth's POV. Venus is closest to us when it directly aligns with Earth and the Sun, i.e. in conjunction. However, at that point in her orbit, Venus has her back to us, as it were. Her daylight side is completely obscured. The "full Venus" occurs when the planet is on the far side of its orbit relative to Earth. However, that's also the point of its greatest distance from Earth. Consequently, the "half Venuses" (there are two, like the Moon, a waxing half and a waning half) are brightest phases from our POV.
Took a few shots with a Pixel 10 pro that I don't know how to use yet. OK, but not great. Prob could have been a good bit better with some knowledge and some prep.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/203544673@N07/shares/249cvpZ5h0
A goddess on a mountain top
Was burning like a silver flame
The summit of beauty and love
And Venus was her name
Her weapons were her crystal eyes
Making every man mad
Black as the dark night she was
Got what no one else had
Everybody ought to have Stellarium installed on their PCs and Macs. It the best damned open-source freeware in the universe.
Stellarium
Stellarium is good desktop eye candy. For in the field, put Sky Safari, or better yet, Sky Safari Pro, on a tablet.
I think the famous star and crescent symbol is based on an alignment like this mornings, revealing Islam's origins as a Moon-worshiping religion.
Mixed in with this is the fact that the Middle Eastern calendars were lunar; moreover, astronomers hadn't yet figured out that gazing along the horizon is the worst angle to clearly see events and objects in the sky, so that's how they told the start of each new lunar month—not by computation (counting) as we do with our solar calendar—but by looking just after sunset to see if the new, sliver of a crescent moon is visible yet. The Moon was very important to Middle Easterners for that reason, “goddess” or not.
I'm puzzled that the "bright star Regulus," mentioned prominently in the headline as being in conjunction with the Moon and Venus, does not appear at all in the photo, and I found nothing about it in the post or its comments. Where did you go, Regulus?
Only Jupiter can be mistaken for Venus in a night sky by anyone familiar with the stars and planets- and only when Jupiter is in the eastern sky at sunrise or in the western sky at sunset. While Mars can be almost as bright as Jupiter during its closest approach to the Earth, it always has a noticeably different tint that keeps me from mistakingly identifying it as Jupiter. None of the distant stars can be mistaken for Venus or Jupiter and can't be mistaken for Mars when Mars is at -2 magnitude.
"how our brains normally "supply" meaning to raw sensory data."
Kant would have said that the mind provides the conceptual framework (a prior intuitions of space and time) that structures disorganized sense data (appearances) into conscious perception (experience). His notion of transcendental idealism shows up today mostly in neo-Kantian theories of language, and in particular why a private language is impossible. Put another way, communication presupposes a common conceptual framework which necessarily puts a limit on how far 'defragmentation' can go.
"I'm puzzled that the "bright star Regulus," mentioned prominently in the headline as being in conjunction with the Moon and Venus, does not appear at all in the photo"
Regulus is only "bright" in comparison to the hundreds of stars the naked eye can see that have an apparent magnitude of 1.5+. It really isn't a bright star at all- probably not even in the top 20. I only know it when I see it because I know its constellation and I know it is the brightest star in it.
According to Stellarium, Regulus is about 1/2 fingerwidth from Venus in that photo down and slightly to the right. Maybe Althouse can enlarge the photo on her phone.
If you want a real challenging observation- look for Mercury just after the sun sets tonight- you will likely need binoculars or a telescope- Mercury will be close to the horizon just a bit south of where the sun goes down. You probably need to look no more than 30 minutes after the sun sets. It is quite bright right now, -1 app.mag. I found it about a week ago.
Too much light by the time of the photo for Regulus to show.
As for stars, Arcturus is in the west around 9 p.m. and Vega is high in the northern sky, too- both around 0.1 app. mag.
Chuck E. Cheese arrested in Florida. Long overdue.
“I assumed it was Venus, but I don't like to say what I don't know, so I said what I did know. It IS a dot! I don't like being told I've made a mistake when I'm actually taking pains to be super-accurate."
The you should have asked, “What was that white dot next to that crescent-shaped thing?”
The extreme crescent phase of Venus can be seen with the naked eye if you have extremely sharp eyes. At that phase it is closest and therefore appears largest.
My lord Madge ,did you see this guy that wants to be an Orbon,Duterte,Putin,KIM JEUNG is whining because nobody says nice things about him! Mommy they are calling me names. Maga Cancel Culture back in bloom and this giant sissy is crying that if they dont say nice things about me well i'll take their ball and not tlet them play. FUK FREE SPEECH (maga only wants their FREE SPEECH) I heard he filed an 80 page 15 billion dollar lawsuit against the "failing new york times" and the judge says ,take this buls%76 back .And today this sissy is firing the lawyer wh said there is no case against Letitia James and won file so BABY HUEY wants him fired. Madge ,check him out on the airplane saying 97% of media dont say nice things about him(he makes these numbers up) He wants Russian TV where only praise and bulldog is allowed a FREE SPEECH FAKE this fella. Now he says well economy and prices that are sky rocketing will be good in about a year or so.WTF Didnt this fella say that would be 1st thing soaring economy and low prices and no debt. Who fell for that Con? (yup you know who)change the channel Madge while we still have tv channels that arent all HOW GREAT THOU ART Is airing in a loop..
Isaac Babel’s story "Crossing the River Zbrucz” from his collection RED CAVALRY, begins, “ The orange sun is rolling across the sky like a severed head…”
Next Venus Occultation: The next notable occultation of Venus by the Moon will occur on August 1, 2026, visible in parts of Australia, South America, and Africa. Exact times and visibility depend on your location.
Grok was pretty bratty about correcting my term as an eclipse, because it has to do with shadows and Venus doesn't reflect enough light.
It would be pretty cool to see a dot disappear behind the waxing gibbous Moon.
Nooooooo. Not Jealousy/La Jalousie. That is the worst book I have ever read. And I had to read it in French, so I read it in English just to be sure it was as bad as I thought. Here's the plot: a guy peers through his blinds.
Why do French novels (and poetry, with a very few exceptions) suck so much?
"It would be pretty cool to see a dot disappear behind the waxing gibbous Moon."
Occultations are cool. Those of the planets are especially so.
The 2012 transit of Venus across the sun was special.
I saw the crescent - you saw the whole of the Moon....
The Waterboys:
https://youtu.be/AsNTmjlf1vI?si=6IwingFWW6GPw9y_
C, JSM
From an Islamist teacher:
“ Women are honored when you beat them!
While you beat your wife, just make sure you don’t insult her.”
Source: MEMRI TV
I did try to read Swanns way, I got about half way through
एक टिप्पणी भेजें
Please use the comments forum to respond to the post. Don't fight with each other. Be substantive... or interesting... or funny. Comments should go up immediately... unless you're commenting on a post older than 2 days. Then you have to wait for us to moderate you through. It's also possible to get shunted into spam by the machine. We try to keep an eye on that and release the miscaught good stuff. We do delete some comments, but not for viewpoint... for bad faith.