"Just the provable actual facts are so nuts, that very likely Charles Manson was a CIA asset.... They had groomed him when he was in prison and taught him mind control techniques when people were high on acid, taught him how to be sober, but pretend he's on acid. And how to interact with these people that are on acid and shape their mind and even get them to commit murder.... Between 1960 and 1970 is like What?! This world is crazy. The music is crazy. The culture's crazy.... Everything is wild. It's very psychedelic.... They were like, We're losing control and power.... They actually pulled it off.... Oh my God, these hippies are murderous.... And our own goddamn government engineered it. They engineered, they stopped what was probably one of the most beautiful cultural shifts in this country's history that would've organically still kept evolving into other things that would've blossomed out of it.... that completely demonized any peace, love, and... any of that kind of movement. Those people became a real problem now, because you're now connected to Manson...."
The phrase in pink is contributed by Charlie Sheen. The rest is Joe. The 2 men are going on and on about conspiracies — and objecting to "this conspiracy theory pejorative" that "they" are "foisting" on us. And then — 2 hours after that clip above — they suddenly encounter the news of the assassination of Charlie Kirk:
The 2 men do not respond with freewheeling conspiracy notions. Sheen says, "Murder for having a different opinion from somebody else, different ideology from somebody else," and Rogan says, "Yeah." They read some of the instant chatter on line, and Joe says, "What a crazy take, like it might not have been someone assassinating someone for the wrong opinion."
संदेश
50 टिप्पणियां:
I'd say it's murdering somebody as a representative of the wrong opinion.
No one will ever beat Hunter S. Thompson regarding his thoughts on the death of the 60s counter-culture:
"My central memory of that time seems to hang on one or five or maybe forty nights—or very early mornings—when I left the Fillmore half-crazy and, instead of going home, aimed the big 650 Lightning across the Bay Bridge at a hundred miles an hour wearing L. L. Bean shorts and a Butte sheepherder's jacket . . . booming through the Treasure Island tunnel at the lights of Oakland and Berkeley and Richmond, not quite sure which turn-off to take when I got to the other end (always stalling at the toll-gate, too twisted to find neutral while I fumbled for change) . . . but being absolutely certain that no matter which way I went I would come to a place where people were just as high and wild as I was: No doubt at all about that. . . .
There was madness in any direction, at any hour. If not across the Bay, then up the Golden Gate or down 101 to Los Altos or La Honda. . . . You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning. . . .
And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .
So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.”
Is it conspiracy to suggest there were people back then who tried to plant the seeds of assassination in minds of those inclined to act? People who tried to motivate others to act? I recall interviews with prominents from that time who spoke braggingly about doing just that but good luck now finding the PBS documentaries where they said it…
This is why I don't listen to Rogan. (But still appreciate the interesting clips posted here.) It's why I might have to bail on Adam Carolla.
Two men who climbed to fame telling hard truths, or at least giving a platform to them, but inevitably needing to chase the next high of 'untold truth,' and if it isn't there, going for the synthetic version.
Go read Kunstler this morning, at Clusterfuck Nation. I don't always agree with him, but he's spot on today.
The Hippies were the kids of the WW2 generation, and I ascribe responsibility mostly to their parents. Look to Sinatra, drunken Dean Martin, and free-love-bathrobe-wearer and sex businessman Hugh Hefner. Throw in highly sexualized, hedonistic Hollywood output from the TV, movies, and music funded by the older generation too.
The Hippies were cookie-cutter "new generation rebels" who naively accepted big business marketing and commercial manipulation. "I'd like to buy the world a Coke..." Hair, the musical. The late Beatles.
Their worldview was filtered through a tiny and tightly-controlled spigot. See Woodstock.
The Hippies became targets of the utopian visions of Earth Day, Indian-based vegetarianism, free love, free drugs, etc. But, this was more a "morally justified" distortion of the simple hedonism of their parents. The Hippies didn't last because they were pre-manufactured Andy Warhol style, and not an organic cultural development. The organic Amish and Mormon cultures predated the Hippies and outlasted them, and even the sexual variations of some Mormon offshots have proven to be sustainable.
They smoked too much weed and took too many mind-altering drugs. And now the government wants to get fat off the taxes, and old hippies turn out in their wheelchairs and walkers to protest roundups of illegal aliens (ironically, who the darlings of low-cost corporate America).
We Boomers had a great run, but too many of us are irresponsible useful idiots.
i just finished reading (well, listening) to:
Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties By: Tom O'Neill, Dan Piepenbring
and
The Instability of Truth: Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper-Persuasion By: Rebecca Lemov
both of which mention the CIA's efforts in Haight-Ashbury during their "Summer of Love"
who ran the Haight-Ashbury Free Medical Clinic?
who was Charlie Manson's Parole Officer?
WHY did Charlie move to Haight-Ashbury?
HOW did Susan Atkins avoid return to prison while committing felonies WHILE on parole?
and, of course; finally, WHO provided the acid to Ken Kesey's merry pranksters?
hint: the answer is a three letter acronym, that starts with CIA
Charlie Screen is the ultimate in over paid hollywood scum. yick.
rhhardin said...
I'd say it's murdering somebody as a representative of the wrong opinion.
Wrong tribe.
The left are not smart enough to have opinions or principles.
gilbar said...
i just finished reading (well, listening) to:
Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties By: Tom O'Neill, Dan Piepenbring
I read that a few years ago. Does make you wonder!!!
Joe Rogan just transitioned himself into Candance Owens.
Is Leftist assassination-porn radical Reddit controlled by elite democratic shadows? Brennan types?
RSM, asking genuinely, but you do know that Joe Rogan is a big fan of Hunter S Thompson? He and Bill Murray talk about Thompson’s life and writing, even this very subject of conspiracy.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/00780990
The Smith study was a part of the San Francisco Amphetamine Research Project, financed by the National Institute of Mental Health and launched by Dr. Smith in May 1968, in cooperation with the Haight-Ashbury Medical Clinic in San Francisco. Much of this chapter is drawn from Dr. Smith's study, "The Marketplace., of Speed: Violence and Compulsive Methamphetamine Abuse.."
interestingly, Dr Smith's Amphetamine Research Project lost ALL of it's research paper, in a robbery there that happened to happen THE DAY charlie manson was arrested..
The ONLY THINGS TAKEN in the robbery; were ALL the research papers.
Dave Begley said...
Joe Rogan just transitioned himself into Candance Owens.
No matter how cynical or suspicious you are about our government, you are not suspicious enough.
A lot of these "crazy" theories are not as far off as you are claiming they aren't true at all.
I'm a Boomer and lived through all that crap, and I tell you that the media didn't know what was going on then and don't know now.
Rogan and Sheen are ignoramuses with loudspeakers, only ever correct by accident.
The CIA has been micro dosing Joe Rogan with hallucinogenics. These drugs are known only to a handful of agents within the company. They make the recipient susceptible to belief in wild conspiracy theories and other weird ideas. They did this to remove Joe Rogan as an agent of change in our politics......They tried to microdose Charlie Kirk, but it didn't work. There are, of course, other method.
David Begley--Good one! Charlie Sheen has been bonkers for years and Rogan just achieved Candace-level nuttiness with no apparent effort.
Interesting that Charlie Sheen’s reaction to Kirk’s assassination is more sane and thoughtful than that from 80% of the leftists in this country. When you’re more disconnected from reality than Charlie Sheen you might have a problem.
Peachy, you might be mixing up Hunter Thompson with Hunter Biden.
Or the other way around.
In 2020, there was a letter signed by 51 intelligence officials, including five people who had been a director of the CIA, to cast doubt on the Hunter Biden laptop so a mentally feeble Joe Biden could get elected.
After what we've been through recently, it would be childish to dismiss the idea that the CIA had nothing to do with events in the 1960's without doing the research.
Rogan and Sheen have certainly put more effort into those topics than most people, and on Charlie Kirk, they made sense.
"i just finished reading (well, listening) to: Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties By: Tom O'Neill, Dan Piepenbring"
Sheen and Rogan talk about that a lot in this episode.
The Boomers and their parents were reacting to unprecedented mass affluence and reacted in predictable ways. The parents were often already unmoored by depression and war even before the postwar boom. The ones we could complain about were likelier to be carried away by the post-WWII changes than the more rooted members of their generation.
Manson as a CIA asset? More like a liability if he had any involvement with them at all. Drugs and runaways and communes were a recipe for social chaos. You didn't need the CIA meddling to make that happen. It's nice to think that the whole Laurel Canyon scene was a CIA psy-op, but the theories aren't very convincing.
The idea that Harvard (and the CIA?) gave us the Unabomber is also out there. Behind a lot of tweedy, pipe-smoking profs there may well have been a torturer trying to break free. The other "conspiracy theory" was that ecstasy was relatively harmless but was banned by the government as part of a crackdown on drugs. I can't evaluate that one, but it does raise questions about just what it is that we are trying to suppress when we ban drugs.
Ann Althouse said...
Sheen and Rogan talk about that a lot in this episode.
Rogan has had O'Neill on his show. That's likely the single source of his opinions.
I tried reading O'Neil's book but gave up. O'Neill spent too much time talking about himself. and there was very little in it that I found persuasive.
wha?
Sounds a lot like "See what you made us do?" from drug-crazed hippie murderers, or those that love them.
Lazarus said..
Drugs and runaways and communes were a recipe for social chaos. You didn't need the CIA meddling to make that happen.
WHERE did the acid come from?
WHO paid for the Haight-Ashbury Free Medical Clinic?
you're acting like you think that the CIA wanted LESS chaos..
WHY were they trying to disrupt america in the 1960s?
might as well ask WHY they're doing it NOW.
stop trying to think that the US government is working for US.
heck, stop trying to think that the US government is working..
consider the FACT, that it is COMPLETELY out of control
Joan Didion has a better and more persuasive take on this and it doesn’t require a conspiracy theory to get from post-WW II Southern California rootlessness (Slouching Towards Babylon, essay and anthology) to Haight Ashbury to Manson and the Tate/LaBiano murders (The White Album). Those seeking to reinvent themselves often end up in a very bad place.
Rebels with a cause and without a clue.
The R&S discussion of the CIA's acid involvement at the Haight's Free Clinic mentions another CIA location across the GG Bridge in Mill Valley at a location next to or at what is now called FutureLab Consulting.
The hippie movement was doomed by human nature. It began to decay as soon as it started, no help from the CIA was necessary. I know, I was there and I was paying attention.
What Shoeless Joe wrote at 8:57am, yeah I had that thought too.
“ Is it conspiracy to suggest there were people back then who tried to plant the seeds of assassination in minds of those inclined to act?”
No one thinks Squeaky Frome was a lone wolf.
Joe had enough class to not mention Martin Sheen's vilification of Trump and whether there is any responsibility there for the Hollywood Bag of Half Wits.
Charlie is showing his miles - I doubt he could get much acting work in his present state. He looks a little dissipated and addled, like he's maybe 80% sure of where he is, but only 60% sure on how he got there.
(Edited to correct title and spelling: "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" and "Tate/LaBianca") Joan Didion has a better and more persuasive take on this and it doesn’t require a conspiracy theory to get from post-WW II Southern California rootlessness (Slouching Towards Bethlehem, essay and anthology) to Haight Ashbury to Manson and the Tate/LaBianca murders (The White Album). Those seeking to reinvent themselves often end up in a very bad place.
I'm pretty sure they got this wrong, and I listened to the whole thing yesterday. People just didn't like Hippies.
I recall one of my mother's cousins, a young Japanese guy, went counter-culture in the late 60s. Somehow, he found the USAF base where my Dad was stationed. Dad was a Squadron Commander, and had to pick the guy up at the guard shack.
Both Mom and Dad denounced him as a Dirty Filthy Hippie, and put him on the next bus to somewhere. The incident caused some consternation around the base.
From Easy Rider hipster- boomer, to parent of the failure-to-launch dropout son in basement still playing video games, or worse, posting on Antifa-adjacent threads on Discord and Reddit.
The hippies are no longer hip is the tip of the cultural change.
“"Just the provable actual facts are so nuts, that very likely Charles Manson was a CIA asset.... They had groomed him when he was in prison and taught him mind control techniques when people were high on acid, taught him how to be sober, but pretend he's on acid.”
Well, for context, Rogan also believes that the moon landings were faked and that flying saucers are real, and has devoted two shows to Terence Howard’s contention that one times one is actually two. He usually has an entertaining show, though.
Look to Sinatra, drunken Dean Martin, and free-love-bathrobe-wearer and sex businessman Hugh Hefner.
I don't think Martin was really a heavy drinker, in spite of his stage persona. He liked to get up at dawn and play golf more than he liked going out drinking all night with the rat pack.
Maybe only playing a drunk, and making it look cool, was worse than being a drunk. I don't think so, but I could see making an argument for that.
" one of the most beautiful cultural shifts in this country's history that would've organically still kept evolving into other things that would've blossomed out of it...."
Whoa! I was born in '68, so I only knew dissipated hippies in the '70s when I was a kid and then had to deal with self-righteous douchey professors who never missed an opportunity to say "Well, I was a hippie in the 60s..." in the '80s and '90s. But my experience was that you could not find a more selfish, lazy, entitled, egotistical, and most of all self-righteous person as a hippie or ex-hippie. The stereotypical GenX hatred for hippies didn't come to us FROM mass media; it came from mass media picking up what we really felt.
(Also, most of them actually sucked at playing acoustic guitar. If I never again have to sit through a Peter, Paul, and Mary song played awkwardly and over-dramatically with flubs and dead spots in most of the chords and no sense of rhythm it will be too soon--and even worse when they won't put down the guitar or pass it to someone who actually knows how to play).
Mary Beth said...
"I don't think Martin was really a heavy drinker, in spite of his stage persona. "
Deano was a teetotaler. Especially after his son died in an AF training accident. This was widely discussed in AF circles.
that would've organically still kept evolving into other things that would've blossomed out of it
Yeah, no. The hippie movement was short lived and died around 1969, when it was taken over by the violent political types. A few communities survived, but they had moved out of the cities by then. The CIA had nothing to do with it, left wing politics had everything to do with it.
The free living types often confuse themselves with the left, but eventually they are suppressed because they are socially disruptive. Happened in Russia after the revolution, took about twelve years. I call them "Nookie Socialists"
Why are so many "CIA assets" famous people? Not very stealthy.
The CIA didn't need any help. The Hippy movement killed itself. Free love devolved into loneliness, political idealism evolved into radicalism, and drug use moved from enlightenment to abuse. Most Hippies just moved on with their lives.
The story arc in Forest Gump from the protests in D.C. to the scene with Jenny on the balcony railing expresses this well. Every time I see it that movie I get melancholy during those scenes.
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