Here's the transcript of the oral argument.
२२ एप्रिल, २०२५
"The plaintiffs here are not asking the school to change its curriculum. They’re just saying, ‘Look, we want out.’ Why isn’t that feasible? What is the big deal about allowing them to opt out of this?"
Said Justice Alito, quoted in "Justices Seem Set to Allow Opt-Outs From L.G.B.T.Q. Stories in Schools/In a lively and sometimes heated argument, the Supreme Court’s conservative majority appeared poised to rule for parents with religious objections to storybooks with gay and transgender characters" (NYT).
पोस्ट्स
३२ टिप्पण्या:
Paying for it is not sufficient. Participation is mandatory. You must wear the ribbon.
So the SC allows the curriculum to remain; ok, whatever. But it allows parents to opt out of the curriculum; ok, fine. What does that mean, practically? That their kids are pulled out of that class? Out of that reading session? And then go where? And what happens if 97% of the parents opt their kids out? What, the teacher sits there and reads tranny books to the remaining one kid?
Two thoughts came to my mind reading the following with respect to infeasibility: (a) why not have a class(es) devoted to LGBTQ literature that one can opt-out from, and (b) it really seems like Jackson is coaching counsel for the Respondent rather than asking critical questions.
JUSTICE JACKSON: Mr. Schoenfeld, what is that purpose?
I mean, I thought the answer to Justice Kavanaugh's question was that the School Board was explicit that the books were to be used only to supplement the English language arts curriculum as reading instruction and not to teach about gender or sexuality.
So it wasn't as though the books were being introduced for the purpose of enhancing the gender and sexuality component --
MR. SCHOENFELD: Absolutely.
JUSTICE JACKSON: -- and, therefore, people can opt out of that whole thing. It was that we're talking about
English here. And, in addition to the other kinds of picture books we have on the shelf and Heritage Reporting Corporation Official - Subject to Final Review we talk about in class, we're going to introduce these books as well.
I think that seems pretty infeasible in English, when you're talking about reading instruction, that every time this particular kind of book comes out, we have to start letting
people leave the classroom.
There are two fundamental laws about the collectivist Left in regards to speech:
(1) They want to censor views with which they disagree;
(2) They want deny everyone the right to not listen to them.
Orwell nailed the second of those laws with the home television screen that you had to watch when it came on.
Of course Justice Alito was correct. Just as he was correct about that late night order.
The Left wants to indoctrinate kids in public schools. They can't stand the idea that they won't be able to do so.
Isn't it true that parents can opt their kids out of sex ed in the public schools?
the School Board was explicit that the books were to be used only to supplement the English language arts curriculum as reading instruction and not to teach about gender or sexuality
Is it considered stupid now to think children would actually learn about a subject they’re reading?
I wonder why the People’s Republic of Montgomery (County) felt it necessary to tell the parents anything if the material in question was simply a “supplement “ to the curriculum.
Just rule that Leftism is a religion. So no indoctrination.
None of these hot-potato things (usually sexually-themed) should be opt-out. If they're to be sponsored by the school, every one of them should be opt-in. Put the burden of persuasion on the proponent of the program (the school) as to why the student should attend. If they think it worthwhile, parents and student can consent.
1. Montgomery County, MD is home to a zillion federal employees and their associates. Beyond this, there are many Jewish and Asian doctors because the Bethesda, MD medical industrial complex is there too (insurance industry, etc.). This is a wealthy deep blue region and people seem to eagerly pay ultra high taxes, demand traffic cameras (fine generators) on every corner, and embrace the nanny state.
2. Per pre-2025 federal government practices, de facto workplace and school woke religious services were common when this suit began. Woke was a semi-secular cross-religious "respect" event meant to tiptoe around Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, and Christian believers.
3. The left in power then became DEI autocrats...Justice Jackson was lauded for her intellectual prowess yet could not define "woman." No one is more blind than she who will not see.
More evidence of entryism in our formerly trustworthy institutions.
- Krumhorn
Opt out of GBQLTx2 stories? Nice that our Judicial rulers will allow that. I thought they were too busy being POTUS to address other issues, but I guess I was wrong.
I took about a dozen courses in the 1990s to get a Texas high school teaching certification. About half were taught by normal people who wished to convey what was expected of someone entering the profession and the best ways to present material and manage a classroom. The other half were insufferable politicals, all on the left.
School choice solves this problem in a way that benefits students. Texas is getting close. I hope the Teacher's Unions continue to push.
“Maybe in one community, one set of values, these books are fine, but in another community with a different set about values, they’re not. And it’s sort of the local process that allows that to cash out where people live, that allow their values to get expressed.”
I don't believe I've ever heard cash out used in this manner. I don't understand why different values can't exist in one school and students read/don't read the books according to their family's values. Does she want them to segregate into different schools based on values?
Are they afraid if they allow kids to opt out, that it will be white kids left in the class while all the Asian kids are in the library reading books of their own choosing? I suspect the reason for ending the opt-out was this kind of divide more than the reasons they gave. It was too obvious to ignore.
Having spent over 17 years in school without ever having a teacher talk to me about gay sex or any other kind, I still learned about it somehow, and developed serviceable skills widely appreciated, but I never found out what my teachers thought was good sex. I'm fine with that except for my 6th grade teacher who was fresh out of college. I did spend he entire year pondering the subject.
Religion doesn't have anything to do with it. It's just that civil rights laws are unconstitutional in the first place. They ought to have been freedom of association except in monopoly markets, leaving freedom of association in place for this.
"Religion doesn't have anything to do with it." It doesn't, necessarily. I'm as irreligious as they come, and I think the pervs who push this crap ought to be thrashed.
The books on the shelves at a school in Elizabeth Colorado - are porn.
This is as slippery a slope as any other. If a student can "opt out" of getting-fucked-in-the-ass class, why can't they opt out of learning-to-take-square-roots class? Or stuff-that may-or-may-not-have-happened-a-long-time-ago class? Or any other of the vast assortment of fucked-up shit the Ed Majors want to cram down their throats? Just as a practical matter, schools present a unified curriculum to all students. I am not defending the perverted "teachers", nor the "schools" that shelter and support them. I am arguing that the public schools are not fit for purpose, and should be eliminated.
Dave Begley said...
"The Left wants to indoctrinate kids in public schools."
The left thinks they are entitled to public schools in which to indoctrinate kids, by force. Paid for by the public. If not for this, the public schools would not even exist in their current form.
Question; Are schools successful (to the extent they are successful) because they force children to think about things that don't interest them, or because they provide opportunities for children to learn about things that do interest them?
I have a PhD in Physics, and it was quite useful to me to be given the opportunity to study set theory in fifth grade. Empty set, union of sets, intersection of sets. You remember. But I am fairly certain that it did not provide any significant benefit to the other 20-odd kids in the class. Maybe one or two.
Two poets consider the matter;
"Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took."
Sam Cooke
"My teachers could easily have ridden with Jesse James,
for all the time they stole from me."
Richard Brautigan
"...homosexual orientation[ ] has no redeeming value to humanity or society."
When people started talking about a gay gene, I thought that if it exists, it would have to be recessive, and confers a reproductive advantage, not to the individual, but to the tribe.
A tribe with the gay gene floating around would have a certain number of hunters, gatherers, warriors, childgivers, etc, who are working just for the tribe. Their labor goes to help the straights' children thrive. Plus the population growth is slowed, so the tribe doesn't outbreed the land's carrying capacity.
Kind of like the Menopause Advantage people were also talking about a few years ago, where older women can contribute to the tribe as a whole (or even just to their own adolescent children) without cranking out a baby every year.
JSM
*childcare givers, not childgivers. - jsm
it's the children who opt out of the brainwashing who need to be brainwashed the most. Participation is mandatory. Resistance is futile.
Reading, writing, arithmetic. The rest of it is indoctrination in some ideology or other. And they aren't doing the reading, writing, or arithmetic anymore because the indoctrination is more important to them.
American public education, from say, 1900 to 1960 or so, for all its faults (see J. T. Gatto for details) was successful in turning the children of immigrants from backward shitholes into good 'git 'er done' Americans.
But that was when both the educators and the newcomers thought that being good Americans was important.
Jupiter said...
This is as slippery a slope as any other. If a student can "opt out" of getting-fucked-in-the-ass class, why can't they opt out of learning-to-take-square-roots class? Or stuff-that may-or-may-not-have-happened-a-long-time-ago class? Or any other of the vast assortment of fucked-up shit the Ed Majors want to cram down their throats? Just as a practical matter, schools present a unified curriculum to all students.
Well, that unified curriculum part is BS. My HS graduating class had 401 graduates. Less then 30 of us were in the senior year calculus class. I'd wager that more then half the class never got past geometry or Algebra 1. Of those in the calculus class, I was the only one who took a shop class all 4 years of HS. For the last 3 years of HS, I was the only person in my shop classes taking a math course. Two entirely different worlds, and I was living in both.
Public schools present themselves as education establishments, but they are, in fact, indoctrination factories. Originally designed here, in the USA, to get children out of religious schools. Of course, one must also remember the original public schools WERE religious schools, since virtually all people in any community having a school that children were required to attend all shared the same, or very similar, religious beliefs. Then- Catholics started their own schools, and soon thereafter, "public" schools were created. Kind of a simplified version, but true for the most part.
As for the indoctrination part, that's what schools do. When I first arrived here in the middle of nowhere NY, the local public schools had HS graduating classes of 120 or so. Last year's graduating class was 50, and the kindergarten class was <40. I've heard people complaining there aren't any children around. Which is not true. When I first got here there was one, that I know of, Amish/Mennonite schools in the area. There are now 5 that I know of, 3 that the educrats are officially aware of. I looked that up a few weeks ago. There are more children here then when I moved here. But they are not in the public schools. So what are the Amish/Mennonite schools indoctrinating their children in? Well, partially, the evils of being English, their term for us, though most in the area are of Italian descent. And they're really good at teaching the Reading, Writing, 'rithmetic part. Where we live. I have one child who does big box remodels, sometimes in Appalachia. And hires locals on a temporary basis for laborer jobs. Says the local Mennonites there applying for the jobs are basic illiterates. Like the labor pool when he does a remodel in an urban area. Kind of a weird juxtaposition. But, anyway, what I'm not aware of and may ask my Mennoinite neighbors with a dozen children about is, do their schools here go past 8th grade, the education requirement in NY?
Public education in the USA needs a reformation. Which in the current legal environment is impossible to do. Back to the IQ debate, someone with an innate IQ of 80 will never get to algebra Someone with an innate IQ of 120 will be a sullen antisocial school dropout if you educate him at the lowest common denominator speed of learning. It's going to have to face the reality of- equal rights does not mean equal abilities and equal outcome. I think, ultimately, if you really want to educate the smartest of children to their full abilities, it's going to require a nationwide network of public boarding schools.
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