१४ ऑगस्ट, २०२४

Donging echoically.

You could go your whole life without using a word, then one day, it seems like the perfect word, and you use it for the first time. That happened to me yesterday, with "echoically": "Trump responds echoically, then darkly...."

Trump dealt with something Musk had said by echoing it, then quickly inserted what he wanted to say, which was quite different. The segue was easily accomplished. Listening to the audio, you might not notice how little he gave back to Musk and how abruptly he changed the subject, but it jumped out at me, reading the transcript.

The first commenter, Mike (MJB Wolf) said, "Dig that word 'echoically' and don't recall ever encountering it before." 

Yeah, I don't recall ever encountering it before either, so why did it strike me as the perfect word? That's odd, no? How often do you use a word and know you're using it for the first time and have no memory of anyone else using it either? 

I checked the NYT archive, to see if the old newspaper had used "echoically" much at all over the years. I found exactly one article, an "On Language" column by William Safire from October 1991, that dealt with the expression "get it" in the context of the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. 

"The times they are a-changin'," said Representative Patricia Schroeder, recalling a 1964 Bob Dylan song as she marched on the Senate, "and the boys here don't get it on this issue."

Here's how "echoically" arose in that context:

Several terms lost their taboo as a result of the televised hearings. One was dong, as in "Long Dong Silver," the stage name of a pornographic film "actor" of the late 70's and early 80's....

The penis has been called the dong since the 1920's, first cited by American Speech magazine in 1930; it appeared in John Steinbeck's 1939 novel, "The Grapes of Wrath," with Tom Joad saying to the one-eyed man in the auto junkyard, "Tell 'em ya dong's growed sence you los' your eye." In the 40's, it was used as a mild vulgarism, not as mild as weenie , similar to wang ; dong was considered coarse, but not quite as shocking as other old slang terms. 
The word was coined, though not in this sense, by Edward Lear for a character in an 1877 lyric, "The Dong with a luminous nose." Because the penis (Latin for "tail") can be compared to a tongue of a bell, the ringing of which is echoically expressed as "ding-dong," it has been called both a dingus and a dong.

The only good way to proceed at this point is with Lear's dong, whatever it is: 

Slowly it wander, — pauses, — creeps, —
Anon it sparkles, — flashes and leaps;
And ever as onward it gleaming goes
A light on the Bong-tree stems it throws.
And those who watch at that midnight hour
From Hall or Terrace, or lofty Tower,
Cry, as the wild light passes along, —
‘The Dong! — the Dong!
‘The wandering Dong through the forest goes!
‘The Dong! the Dong!
‘The Dong with a luminous Nose!’
Many more verses to Lear's poem. You can read it here

What possessed William Safire to write "echoically" rather than "onomatopoeically"? Ortographobia? 

But Safire used "onomatopoeically" in a 1987 column about cicadas, and I am delighted because it so happens that cicadas are providing the soundtrack to my life right now. 

Safire wrote:
The Latin name cicada is echoic, which means ''imitative of the sound made by the thing it denotes,'' sometimes called onomatopoeic by the crowd that prefers longer Greek derivations. (Greek-speakers will call the same insect the tettix, because that's the way the call of the cicada or tree cricket sounded to ancient Athenian suburbanites; that ticking sound hardly resembles the whirring buzz of the Latin term. Perhaps an unpopular Brood-10 leader once said: ''Tettix, tettix doesn't attract females for me anymore — what if I try cicada?'') 
I don't know why the word is classified in dictionaries as echoic. Today the noise made by the insect does not sound like si-KAY-da to me; the disturbance squawk sounds like BRA-A-ACK; the congregational song, BUZZ-AYE-EE, and the mating call I am reluctant to commit to print lest the unsuspecting reader say it aloud and be swarmed over....

In the tribe of invertebrate animals called arthropods, there is a class labeled Insecta, within which we find an order called Homoptera. Entomologists know that the key element of this name is pter, from the Greek pteron, meaning ''wing''; this type of winged insect is of an order with sucking mouthparts, which is why thoughtful teen-agers would affix the bumper stickers to their cars as a useful mnemonic. (Entomon is Greek for ''insect''; etymos is Greek for ''true,'' particularly ''the literal meaning according to origin.'' An annoyed etymologist says, ''Buzz off, entomologist,'' when he wants to be onomatopoeically offensive.)

This cicada — a female? — was not annoyed but waiting very patiently on our house yesterday: 

IMG_8183

७४ टिप्पण्या:

tommyesq म्हणाले...

You could go your whole life without using a word, then one day, it seems like the perfect word, and you use it for the first time.

I was really expecting that word to be "donging."

Kevin म्हणाले...

Trump dealt with something Musk had said by echoing it, then quickly inserted what he wanted to say, which was quite different.

Scott Adams refers to this as pacing and leading.

tcrosse म्हणाले...

The word anechoically has technical applications, regarding anechoic chambers.

Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...

Althouse in the weeds.

gilbar म्हणाले...

you mean? "longing for donging?" or "longing to be donging?"

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Seems perfectly cromulent to me.

Dave म्हणाले...

Young women here are indai, and young men are dodong. This is shortened to dai and dong. Dongs have dongs.

tcrosse म्हणाले...

A Dongle is a device that plugs into a computer to give additional functionality.

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

I probably read that column because I loved Safire's On Language writing. Usually I tried to use any new cool words after that, but not echoically.

One Fine Day म्हणाले...

How long before we get all the way 'round to Don's dong (which has caused him no end of trouble)?

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Right after we finish with Bill Clindong.

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Or, more precisely; Bill Clindong's dong.

Goetz von Berlichingen

Mike (MJB Wolf) म्हणाले...

Also taught as "active listening" in education schools, or it was.

Inga म्हणाले...

I noticed how quickly Trump jumped headfirst into a completely unrelated topic after his brief repetition of Musks comment, as if he was just being polite to Musk, but not really interested. Musk was very patient with Trump.

stlcdr म्हणाले...

"bell end' seems to have made a resurgence in the UK over the past few years.

Gerda Sprinchorn म्हणाले...

Another, related question: why is onomatopoeic so much more popular than echoic?

Onomatopoeic is almost impossible to pronounce or spell correctly (I've been saying it wrong for decades) and it isn't related to anything else recognizable. Echoic, on the other hand, is instantly recognizable and relatively easy to spell.

What gives?

narciso म्हणाले...

Jt sounds more sophisticated i guess

john mosby म्हणाले...

The season is coming for that traditional carol, “Christmastime - Don’t Let the Bells End” by The Darkness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrVg1toMzuo

JSM

mezzrow म्हणाले...

Dong Work For Yuda

Kakistocracy म्हणाले...

Regular people, too.

Former X employees, experts doubt Musk claim of cyberattack on Trump talk
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/08/14/experts-doubt-musk-cyberattack-claim/

FWIW — the Minnesota Twins use the term “dong” to describe a home run…

Hassayamper म्हणाले...

Did you even play the game? Everyone uses "dong" for a home run. I used it 40 years ago, and I grew up in Arizona.

Hassayamper म्हणाले...

"Former X employees", eh? I'm sure we can trust them to give a factual and unbiased account.

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

I prefer ditto. Unless you are in the mountains where yells and wedding vows echo.

Hassayamper म्हणाले...

"Echolalia" is a neuropsychiatric term for immediate reflexive repetition of other peoples' speech that is not under the control of conscious thought.

It is a manifestation of various mental illnesses such as autism, Tourette's syndrome, and being a mainstream media reporter at a Kamala Harris speech.

Hassayamper म्हणाले...

How delightful to see you paying such rapt attention to the man. Maybe your ignorance will be dispelled and you will see the light of reason.

Hassayamper म्हणाले...

Where's "here"?

Marcus Bressler म्हणाले...

Of course "Musk was very patient with Trump". It was a conversation, not an interview. I really do wish for the days when we had true interviewers on (in?) the media. Not hateful adversarial, making untrue statements or framing their questions into the classic "when did you stop beating your wife?," nor the fellating of politicians and celebs the interviewer wants to promote or assist in their campaign. And, God help us, may we never again have Bawa Walters-types asking "what tree are you?"- type queries. My ADHD makes listening to long-form interviews (Rogan, Peterson to name two) difficult; strange as it seems, I can listen to audio books without a problem. I have about a three-minute limit on most You Tube videos; if they are longer and I do want to watch them in their entirety, I usually break them down into three-minute segments. I have yet to listen to Trump and Musk. Suggestions as to the best site or link to use? TIA

wsw म्हणाले...

An old favorite ONION headline of mine (from the Madison days): William Safire Orders Two Whoppers Junior

Marcus Bressler म्हणाले...

I was never a fan of learning new words as an exercise (sorta like Reader's Digest used to do) -- but if I come across one that piques my interest, and I believe I may have use for it in future writings, I may store it up in the reaches of my gray matter and use it when I deem it appropriate. I remember many decades ago when I read a letter my father wrote to someone and he used the word "penultimate". I thought that was SO cool. Fancy-schmancy words do not excite me, though I enjoy reading about language. Edwin Newman, Strunk & White, William Safire, -- they all kept me interested in what was once (and now, only occasionally) my craft. I just finished editing a 500-page autobiography (in the FINAL edit, where I am re-formatting for style and consistency, and occasionally editing here and there). I was discussing via a phone call on how I would get the thumb drive to the author (physical handoff) and reviewing his self-publishing options. He dictated the majority of the book into a cassette recorder, then given to me as a Word doc -so there was a lot of cleaning up to do in terms of run-on sentences, punctuation, and the like. I had taken six hours to edit just a ten-page section near the last chapter and tried to explain the intricacies and difficulties I faced without insulting him (he knows he is not a "writer" nor well-educated, but tells an interesting story) -- how he sometimes used the same word in a sentence ("horrific", for example), and I had to replace one with a synonym to eliminate the repetition. Then he laughingly added, "There were some words you used that I had to look up." I admitted the same when it came to the illnesses and diseases he wrote about, acronyms he used without explanation ("GERD" was one), and spellings I was unsure about. No shame in that, especially when the search engine is just a click or two away. I hope to give him this book that he has been writing for decades, now that it is in publishable form, so he can finally tell his story (he conquered a host of serious mental illnesses, including severe Tourette's, using only alternative methods). He knows Dan Bongino, who lives near us, and hopes to get an interview so he can "help others". The author has had an amazing if difficult life, he's a friend, and I did this for free. Well, I said for a "breakfast" at the local truckstop diner and a soft-cover copy of his book at his first signing. Then it is on to write my SFW memoirs.
I do so enjoy Althouse when she does her etymology pieces or goes off on a tangent with that topic.

Curious George म्हणाले...

"This cicada — a female? — was not annoyed but waiting very patiently on our house yesterday: " It might be wondering if the cracks in the stucco are now, or could develop into, a problem.

Deep State Reformer म्हणाले...

This poast is confounding. Noam Chomsky (IIRC) wrote about this in one of his linguistics papers. But those waters are too deep & dark for my swimming them.

Kevin म्हणाले...

Musk was very patient with Trump.

This shows respect by Musk for Trump and why the media cannot let themselves do it. They go out of their way not only to equalize the relationship, but to put the "journalist" above Trump whenever possible.

Aggie म्हणाले...

I thought there was somebody, can't quite remember who, that predicted that Musk would become irritated with Trump because of something or other. Did that happen? They said they couldn't wait for it to happen. Did it happen? Eager for an update.

Hatari म्हणाले...

Schlonging is the word

Fred Drinkwater म्हणाले...

Marcus, years ago I heard John Stewart interview some semi-prominent figure. Straight news style.

It was very impressive. One of the best interviews I ever heard. Stewart had done his homework, and his goal was to draw I interesting information out.

I think it's a tragedy he didnt make that his profession.

boatbuilder म्हणाले...

Since we are on the subject of words, and the commenters here are uniquely brilliant in so many subjects, I am looking for a German word meaning "delicious" or "very tasty" with respect to food--specifically some German mustard that comes in a tube, which a golfing buddy gave to me following a discussion of the shortcomings of yellow French's mustard. I would like to thank him.
Since the Germans have a specific word or phrase for just about everything, can anyone help me out?

MikeD म्हणाले...

Read to me by Mother in '46:
The Dong with a Luminous Nose

When awful darkness and silence reign
Over the great Gromboolian plain,
Through the long, long wintry nights; —
When the angry breakers roar
As they beat on the rocky shore; —
When Storm-clouds brood on the towering heights
Of the Hills of the Chankly Bore: —

Then, through the vast and gloomy dark,
There moves what seems a fiery spark,
A lonely spark with silvery rays
Piercing the coal-black night, —
A Meteor strange and bright: —
Hither and thither the vision strays,
A single lurid light.

Slowly it wander, — pauses, — creeps, —
Anon it sparkles, — flashes and leaps;
And ever as onward it gleaming goes
A light on the Bong-tree stems it throws.
And those who watch at that midnight hour
From Hall or Terrace, or lofty Tower,
Cry, as the wild light passes along, —
‘The Dong! — the Dong!
‘The wandering Dong through the forest goes!
‘The Dong! the Dong!
‘The Dong with a luminous Nose!’

Long years ago
The Dong was happy and gay,
Till he fell in love with a Jumbly Girl
Who came to those shores one day.
For the Jumblies came in a sieve, they did, —
Landing at eve near the Zemmery Fidd
Where the Oblong Oysters grow,
And the rocks are smooth and gray.
And all the woods and the valleys rang
With the Chorus they daily and nightly sang, —
‘Far and few, far and few,
Are the lands where the Jumblies live;
Their heads are green, and the hands are blue
And they went to sea in a sieve.’

Happily, happily passed those days!
While the cheerful Jumblies staid;
They danced in circlets all night long,
To the plaintive pipe of the lively Dong,
In moonlight, shine, or shade.
For day and night he was always there
By the side of the Jumbly Girl so fair,
With her sky-blue hands, and her sea-green hair.
Till the morning came of that hateful day
When the Jumblies sailed in their sieve away,
And the Dong was left on the cruel shore
Gazing — gazing for evermore, —
Ever keeping his weary eyes on
That pea-green sail on the far horizon, —
Singing the Jumbly Chorus still
As he sate all day on the grassy hill, —
‘Far and few, far and few,
Are the lands where the Jumblies live;
Their heads are green, and the hands are blue
And they went to sea in a sieve.’

But when the sun was low in the West,
The Dong arose and said;
— ‘What little sense I once possessed
Has quite gone out of my head!’ —
And since that day he wanders still
By lake and forest, marsh and hills,
Singing — ‘O somewhere, in valley or plain
‘Might I find my Jumbly Girl again!
‘For ever I’ll seek by lake and shore
‘Till I find my Jumbly Girl once more!’

Playing a pipe with silvery squeaks,
Since then his Jumbly Girl he seeks,
And because by night he could not see,
He gathered the bark of the Twangum Tree
On the flowery plain that grows.
And he wove him a wondrous Nose, —
A Nose as strange as a Nose could be!
Of vast proportions and painted red,
And tied with cords to the back of his head.
— In a hollow rounded space it ended
With a luminous Lamp within suspended,
All fenced about
With a bandage stout
To prevent the wind from blowing it out; —
And with holes all round to send the light,
In gleaming rays on the dismal night.

And now each night, and all night long,
Over those plains still roams the Dong;
And above the wail of the Chimp and Snipe
You may hear the squeak of his plaintive pipe
While ever he seeks, but seeks in vain
To meet with his Jumbly Girl again;
Lonely and wild — all night he goes, —
The Dong with a luminous Nose!
And all who watch at the midnight hour,
From Hall or Terrace, or lofty Tower,
Cry, as they trace the Meteor bright,
Moving along through the dreary night, —
‘This is the hour when forth he goes,
‘The Dong with a luminous Nose!
‘Yonder — over the plain he goes;
‘He goes!
‘He goes;
‘The Dong with a luminous Nose!’

boatbuilder म्हणाले...

Note--I will doublecheck, so please don't give me the German for "tastes like weasel scat." Thank you.

Pat म्हणाले...

I love these little guys. It doesn’t really feel like summer until I hear them making their noise through the night.

Lilly, a dog म्हणाले...

Boatbuilder, I believe the word "lecker" fits what you're asking. It means delicious.

tcrosse म्हणाले...

Since the Germans have a specific word or phrase for just about everything, can anyone help me out?

For mustard, maybe delikat, or Delikatessen would fit.

Lucien म्हणाले...

If you’re not careful you can get your dong dinged up.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

https://thelanguagegarage.com/das-ist-kostlich-its-delicious-taking-about-food-cooking-in-german/

Narr म्हणाले...

Narayanan beat me to it: koestlich.

Narayanan म्हणाले...

lickable > German = leckbar
it is what dogs do!!😜

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

The best German word for that usage is 'lecker'. Smackhaft works too, but that's best translated as 'tasty'. Lecker has a 'yummy' quality to it. 'Koestlich' does also mean delicious but is more highbrow.

Give 'Loewensenf' (A German mustard brand) a try if you like a bit of heat in your mustard.

gadfly म्हणाले...

Big news from Ashville. Thomas Wolfe Auditorium in downtown Ashville was filled today by Trump supporters attending his rally. The auditorium's capacity today is 2,055 and Trump was required to pay $82,247.60 in advance to the city for his "last-minute" rally. That is $40 per seat.

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

"Delikat' is also a good word for delicious, although in usage it implies a certain sophistication of the food being tasted.

tcrosse म्हणाले...

It was implied that the mustard was fancy.

Dr Weevil म्हणाले...

They aren't necessarily the same thing. Onomatopoeia is when the sound of a word imitates its sense, e.g. 'buzz', 'hum', 'moo', 'bang'. Echoic (at least sometimes) describes a poem in which words echo other words. Here is an example from George Herbert, where the poet asks a question and Echo (the demigoddess) echoes the last word: Poet: "Thou Echo, thou art mortall, all men know." Echo: "No."
Sometimes an echoic poem repeats the same word(s) but with a different message. For instance, Ovid in his story of Narcissus and Echo has Narcissus say "I'd rather die than let you put your hands on me!" and Echo answers "Put your hands on me!"

Jim at म्हणाले...

Get a life.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

Trump is talking bullshit economics at 5pm, talks of not raising the retirement age for SS, which is the ONLY solution for worker/retiree imbalance, will lower prices, etc. Maybe he's targeting women.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

I keep clicking back to The Five hoping Trump will be gone

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Ohhh, fancy mustard! I am impressed!
MfG
Goetz von Berlichingen

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

It was mustard from a tube? Must be the good stuff. Didn't know we have the hoi-polloi hanging out here. Quel honeur!

imTay म्हणाले...

Maybe he’s targeting men who work hard and sacrifice their bodies. Why is it the working class that has to take the brunt of anti inflation measures, and never the people benefiting from the money printing?

dbp म्हणाले...

In my search, I found "lecker" first but found it lacking. I looked for a word for delectable and got köstlich, which just seems tasty.

Hassayamper म्हणाले...

I remember many decades ago when I read a letter my father wrote to someone and he used the word "penultimate". I thought that was SO cool.

That word happens to be among the most frequently misused by those wishing to sound more intelligent than they in fact are. More than half the time it appears in print, the author intends it to mean the last item in a series, when by definition it actually means the next-to-last. I suspect it is even more often used incorrectly in public speaking. Most of those employing the word should say "ultimate" instead.

boatbuilder म्हणाले...

It is in fact Loewensenf. I am enjoying it with some chicken patties as I type this. Good stuff from a toothpaste tube (very Euro).

Thanks to all of you for the German phrases. I think "lecker" is probably correct, but I cannot resist "smackhaft." I'm going to start using it in general conversation.

Also--I am not sure that good spicy mustard is "kostlich." Smackhaft it is.
You guys are the best.

Marcus Bressler म्हणाले...

Yes, Hassayamper -- my father used it to mean "next to last": he was referencing/replying to a letter someone sent him and he wrote, "in the penultimate paragraph of your letter,". Since I am not an expert by any means, the only people I ever correct about words, phrases, grammar, usage and the like, were my children, the students I taught as an adjunct instructor at the local state college, my editorial staff (I was the editor, ffs, they'd better expect a correction) and people I mentored. I would not have a valid motive, IMHO, to correct others.

Narr म्हणाले...

As long as we're being pedantic, it's "schmeckhaft." "Sm" is rarely found as the first syllable in German words.

"Savory" would be another translation.

German waitpersons used to ask, "Hat du gut geschmeckt?"

boatbuilder म्हणाले...

Schmeckhaft is even better. Mit a Cherman accent, Ja! Vienen Dank.

boatbuilder म्हणाले...
ही टिप्पणी लेखकाना हलविली आहे.
traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Ding dong the witch is dead. That’s good use of dong.

Reminds me early Viet Nam humor included headlines reporting that the Marines had beat off the Viet Cong at Long Dong.

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Schmackhaft is correct. "Hat du gut geschmeckt?" is not something a real German would say as it translates to 'has you tasted good?" Proper German is
'hat es dir (or Ihnen) gut geschmeckt?'
Schmeckhaft and vienen are misspellings.
Guten Appetit!
MfG Goetz

Narr म्हणाले...

"Hat du gut geshmeckt?" is exactly the phrase that waitpersons asked my wife and I as we ate. (Then again, we were mostly in Bavaria and Austria.)

It's not Luther's German, but I know what I heard.

GRW3 म्हणाले...

Over the years of writing technical reports, I have often used specific, but uncommon words. They were poured in my head by my English teacher / Librarian mother, and my lifelong reading habit. (As a scientist, I purposely read science books outside of my field but in my broader interests.) I do recognize an unusual word when it shows up and if I am not completely firm on what it means, I'll hit the online dictionary.

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Sorry Narr, but you either mis-heard the waitress or she wasn't German. I've been fluent in German for 62 years and lived amongst the Germans for a dozen. My wife is native German from the Wetterau. We speak German at home and raised our two boys to speak German. What you wrote is not even Umgangsprache.
Specifics - 'hast' is the form of 'haben' used with 'Du'.
Ich habe
Du hast
er, sie, es hat.

Du means 'you' and is nominative case. "Dir' means 'to you' and is genitive case, which is the case of the waitress' question.
Your memory got it wrong.
BTW, the absolutely proper way to speak to a customer is in formal German, i.e. "Sie" instead of Du. Genitive case for Sie is 'Ihnen'. "Hat es Ihnen gut geschmeckt?" (Did it taste good to you?) is the polite way to ask the question of a customer. Not using the formal mode can be viewed as friendly, inappropriately informal, condescending, or insulting based on circumstance.
You can argue with me all you wish, but what you wrote was bad German.
MfG
Goetz von Berlichingen

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Many restaurants are staffed with foreign workers, so I suspect your waitress was not familiar with the language. Or, she may've said "Hat's gut geschmeckt?" Meaning "Did it taste good?" with the 'to you' part being understood by the context.
Now if you want to jump on me for my incomplete spelling of 'Quelle', that would be perfectly angebracht.
MfG
Goetz von Berlichingen

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

Narr said -asked my wife and I as we ate
-----
Of course you mean 'wife and me"
Just being a jerk...
MfG
Goetz von Berlichingen

Narr म्हणाले...

"Hat's gut geschmeckt" was probably the phrase. They seemed very friendly, those waitresses, though it's possible they intended to be condescending or insulting, and/or deliberately using bad grammar.

I've been condescended to by waiters in Paris, but that's just part of the experience.

I didn't notice 'Quelle' at all, and "my wife and I" was just a brainfart.

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

My wife and I came to the same conclusion about what they were saying. I had missed that you were talking about multiple waitpersons or I would've come to that conclusion earlier.
I was just ribbing you about me/I. With a name like yours, you have to have a good sense of humor.
Mit freundlichen Gruesse
Goetz von Berlichingen

Narr म्हणाले...

Narr is of course only my nom de 'net--chosen knowingly (if not echoically).

"I was just ribbing you." I know, Goetz, and mox nix.

When someone proves me mistaken, I can choose whether to learn or be pissed.

Goetz von Berlichingen म्हणाले...

I've been working on that aspect of my character all my life.
Tschuess!
Goetz