"Booksellers in the Netherlands said that many young people prefer to buy books in English with their original covers, even if Dutch is their first language, because those are the books they see and want to post about on BookTok.... 'We are in the middle of a transition,' said Simon Dikker Hupkes, a commissioning editor at the Dutch publisher Atlas Contact. The fact that many readers overlook the Dutch translations, he said, 'hurts our hearts a little.' Asha Hodge, 19, who described herself as an avid reader, said she preferred to read in English because she enjoyed posting about books in English on her Instagram account...."
From "English-Language Books Are Filling Europe’s Bookstores. Mon Dieu! Young people, especially, are choosing to read in English even if it is not their first language because they want the covers, and the titles, to match what they see on TikTok and other social media" (NYT).
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४९ टिप्पण्या:
I continue to be impressed by the young generation and can't wait to see them start getting some air time.
While I sympathize with his hurt I believe Firefly/Serenity was right. Simply do to volume and usage, English/Chinese blend will probably be the winner in the language race.
Dutch and English are suprisingly similar. The hotel in London I stayed at had a Dutch TV channel with English subtitles and I after a while I was able to pick up a lot of Dutch words and sort of understand what they saying.
Well English is already dominant in international aviation. And relatively dominant in commerce, although Chinese may be coming on strong.
But literature--particularly good literature, frequently relies on a common cultural understanding. And that's sometimes difficult to translate into another language.
I don't think so, Oligonicella.
There are a lot of Chinese speakers and readers, but they are concentrated in one region. English is already distributed worldwide and has centuries of success as a medium of cultural and scientific production and transmission across boundaries.
Leave aside the relative ease of mastery of the spoken and written forms, and the likelihood that China will revert to warlordism and internal upheaval, precluding much spread in the future.
English's dominance will continue to grow- it reached a tipping point about 50 years ago.
As a percentage of the population, there are almost as many people in the Netherlands who speak English as a second language as there are in the United States who speak English as a first language.
JUST TO BE CLEAR..
They are complaining about europeans wanting to read books in the book's ORIGINAL language
They are complaining about europeans wanting to read books in the book's ORIGINAL language
THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT EUROPEANS WANTING TO READ BOOKS IN THE BOOK'S ORIGINAL LANGUAGE
They are TRYING to make it SOUND like it's Westerners wanting English to take over..
BUT..
What they are talking about is: EUROPEANS WANTING TO READ BOOKS IN THE BOOK'S ORIGINAL LANGUAGE
When we lived in Germany during the early aughts, the Harry Potter series was dropping brand new books. It was easy to buy the English version, but to get an original cover? We cherished the German version because it was unique for us.
Have the traumatized European publishers considered just changing out the cover art for the American print?
The Beauty of "english" is that it is NOT language.. it is a pidgin
A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages
english is NOT saxon, it CERTAINLY isn't celtic, or latin, or greek, or hindu, or chinese
english is what is spoke BETWEEN languages.. It is the word of the ports
and Thus: english is WHATEVER is spoke between languages
dead fossilized languages like french have academies that "protect" the "PROPER" use of french.
They are set in stone, and are DEAD AS STONES..
In 300 years, people will be speaking english.. and it won't be understandable to us.
catch my drift?
Left bank,
There are probably 250-300mm Americans that speak English as a first language.
Population of Netherlands is 18mm
Your math doesn't work
John Henry
Gilbar,
The typical 9th grader can read and understand Canterbury tales. It can take some puzzling with some of the words but it is still readable.
Hundreds of millions use the 400 year old king James Bible daily with little difficulty.
300 years from now English may look different but it will still be readable by most everyone
John Henry
English is the modern koine. It sucks too because there are so many other languages that are a delight to understand and communicate in. No offense against Dutch, but it is so similar to saxon-angle-germanic-indo-European that even Americans without a college degree can understand 10% of it if they were locked in a room with a Dutch children's book for 24 hours.
There are many languages that are perfect for capturing perceptions of complex cultural attributes, such as Japanese for specific artistic expressions (mono-no-aware) or pillow-talk in Brazilian Portuguese.
I love language. All languages. I hope none of them ever die, although I know that can't possibly happen.
TikTok puppet master hardest hit.
Does China want everyone speaking English?
Some of the best works that ive mentioned lately like do santos volpi vaszquez garcia are translated into english better than the original
Can't have a global village without a common language. Pop music spread English (American English at that) across the world, even before the internet got going. Remember what Trump said about music? And as every first generation immigrant has seen, your kids soak up the local lingo regardless of your efforts to speak the Old Country language alive in the household.
I think it's humorous that a Chinese app is helping English grow in popularity.
When I was working online, I worked with people all over the world. There were several in The Netherlands. Their English was excellent but all had a problem at one time or another communicating with other workers. They were very brusque. I think it was a cultural thing, not a language ability thing. They were just more straightforward and it came off as rude.
What I was told in school:
In the mid-60s, I was made to take French language in junior high because "it was destined to be the language the civilized world would communicate with."
In the late 60s, I signed up for Spanish I and then II as I was told "in the near future, Spanish will become the international language of preference."
All along the way, I took every English class I could, becoming proficient in the rules of English and grammar. (I am not, in any way, an expert.)
In the early 90s, I took several Italian classes as my wife at the time, who was Italian-American, wanted to vacation in Italy -- and visit the town where her ancestors came from. She did visit, after she divorced me, and paid for her excursion with what used to be OUR money.
I can read quite a but of French, Spanish, and Italian, but I attribute that to my studying classic French and Northern Italian cuisine. Then I picked up some Spanish by virtue of many restaurants including Hispanic dishes on their menus. I cannot speak but a short phrase here and there because my ADHD-rattled brain overthinks what I am trying to say -- and because I never studied hard in any of those classes.
I suppose the "language of the world" may soon be some version of Arabic, especially in Europe. In America, more and more will speak Spanish --but many of the legal immigrants I have met or dealt with make some attempt to speak English.
John Henry,
You misread Left Bank’s post.
Clearly stated right at the beginning: as a percentage of the population. Doesn’t mean sheer numbers.
If this is simply about wanting the books to have the same titles and covers, as seems to have been suggested by the abstract , the there seems to be a simple solution at least in once sense. But I,m certain there are licensing and distribution practices that need to be reworked first. Anyone in publishing care to comment?
Any language is a tool, and people learn to use a tool when there is a payoff to knowing how to use it. Chinese can be a useful tool for some in certain circumstances, but English is already nearly universal in its utility.
I don't see Arabic attracting a lot of new users either, if not necessarily for the same reasons.
Lingua Yanka.
Lem @ 11:50 askes "Does China want everyone speaking English?"
Yes, they do. English is a required course in school starting (IIRC) in the 3rd grade all the way up through high school. Nearly all road signs are in both Chinese and English. The Chinese leadership is fully cognizant that English is the "lingua franca" of the world in general and the business world in particular. Most people don't speak it day to day and as a result it's not completely ubiquitous, but there's still a large undercurrent of English throughout the country anymore.
My sister worked as a school teacher in Shanghai for 3 years and did a lot of trips all around southern China on weekends. She never learned Chinese much beyond the basics of "Hello, goodbye, and "where's the restroom?"" because she never needed to, even with her many forays out of Shanghai's "British sector."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP4nXlKJx_4&pp=ygUNc3Bva2VuIGdhZWxpYw%3D%3D
Most of all human languages are dead. 90% easily. Wiped out over 50,000 of sapient history. It is extremely critical, in my opinion, to at least record them and preserve them in whatever way we can as well as celebrate them. Could you imagine what it would be like if there were no Mark Twain? Every culture has a Mark Twain. Whether it be DuFu or LaoZi, Miyamoto Musashi or Ishida Mitsunari, Dostoyevsky or Kant, or François de La Rochefoucauld. All wisdom must be preserved, in its original format so that nerds can freebase it centuries after it's been devised.
Preserving thought in it's original format for future generations is a complete good. Right up there with returning your shopping cart.
Speaking of books in English the novel 1984 was issued on this date in 1949
Left Bank of the Charles said...
As a percentage of the population
It's encouraging that some young people are engaged in studying their Indo-European roots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXZTbmyjVgo&pp=ygUYY2ljZXJvIGFnYWluc3QgY2F0aWxpbmUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7DrOHRnCKk
So long as parts of the corpus are spoken, the whole shall never die. It provides a foundation for others to build on. A complete good.
The common criticism about booktok tends to be that people don’t really read the books they make videos about.
Deterioration of national languages. Translation costs money. Amazon has reduced cost point by cutting out publishing houses. Most ofthese books wouldn't be translated anyway.
None of this has to do with culture. It has to do with money. That's not a wholescale indictment. We are all demanding more content, more or less disposable.
John Henry said..
300 years from now English may look different but it will still be readable by most everyone
sê êow canne stillnes reordian hîe, ferhtlic hwæt−hwugu unlýtel!
my point was (and is!) that English keeps up with the times..
every year new words (many from other languages) go in, and rules change..
John Henry points out, that the Old Words (and the Old Rules) stay in english.. ALMOST forever.
THAT is why english has SO MANY synonyms (swine, pork to name JUST two)..
IF you can speak english well.. You can say JUST ABOUT ANYTHING..
BUT if you can no speak english good.. still make me understand.
BAD english is MORE understandable that just about ANY other language..
because it's ALREADY messed up (it's a pidgin speak).
French speakers refuse to understand Quebecers.. EVEN though Quebecers speak the same language.
many (most?) German speakers don't even speak German.. They speak Plattdeutsch
What do they speak in China?
Mandarin? or Cantonese? or Guan, Wu, Yue, Min, Hakka, Xiang, or Jiangxinese?
I envy you Marcus. I've taken tourist/HS french and spainish and still want to get somewhat fluent in both languages. Although different reasons. Spainish is the language of our neighbors to the south (Brazil excepted). I want to read french to enjoy french lit in the original.
In our travels we've met significant numbers of Swedes/Norwegians/Germans/Dutch who spoke excellent English. Some didn't even have accents. I've chit-chatted with them, thinking they were USA tourists and then learnt they were Scandis or Germans. Most Frenchman OTOH don't speak English or they have the French accent.
>>Dutch and English are suprisingly similar.
As the saying used to go:
Good butter and good cheese/Is good English and good Fries
--gpm
Narr - That's why I put English first. Didn't mean to imply an even blend. If you watch the series, they speak in English with Chinese phrases put in here and there. English is the thief of languages after all.
gilbar:
John Henry:
300 years from now English may look different but it will still be readable by most everyone
sê êow canne stillnes reordian hîe, ferhtlic hwæt−hwugu unlýtel!
Please tell me where on Earth that was spoken as the English language in 1724?
The typical 9th grader can read and understand Canterbury tales. It can take some puzzling with some of the words but it is still readable.
I memorized the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales back in 9th grade, with correct Middle English pronunciation and everything. Can still reel it off with few errors. My kids think it's some kind of magic power.
I think maybe 90 percent of it is familiar enough to modern speakers to get the gist of it, once they have adjusted to the different spellings and pronunciation. Even some of the difficult ferne halwes kowth in sondry londes stuff has modern cognates.
As the saying used to go:
Good butter and good cheese/Is good English and good Fries
There are even more cognates in this little ditty that I recall from one of my English classes:
Molke en bûter, brún brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goede Fries.
Milk & butter, brown bread, and green cheese, is good English and good Fries.
These are particularly basal words and therefore have been conserved with little change in the 1500 years since the English language separated from Frisian (i.e. Fries). These sentences are artificially constructed, and in practice the two languages are not mutually intelligible; but it is said that, like Dutch, a surprising amount of it can be rapidly picked up with dedicated study.
But if I'm going to learn an obscure and nearly useless language, it will be the Scottish Gaelic of my ancestors, which is still hanging on in some of the remote islands off the coast of northwest Scotland. I could enjoy having a wee dram in a pub in Stornoway and singing along with the music.
RCOCEAN II said...
"Dutch and English are suprisingly similar. The hotel in London I stayed at had a Dutch TV channel with English subtitles and I after a while I was able to pick up a lot of Dutch words and sort of understand what they saying."
*************
Me too! I bet you also watched German TV stations, and immediately picked up on Achtung! Verboten! Arbeit Macht Frei! Mischlung! Judenfrei! And, of course, Endlosung.
Amirite!??
Meanwhile in the United States, you can get a degree in the classics without learning Latin or Greek.
“You can say JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.”
Except that you can’t write a law that can pin down Bill Clinton or Hunter Biden.
There is some public intellectual in France who claims that English is little more than badly pronounced French, and he makes a better case for it than you might think.
“You can say JUST ABOUT ANYTHING..“
That you can think of if you think in English.
Burgess thought that Russian words and phrases would infiltrate English in a big way--at least that's how it is in A Clockwork Orange.
I never saw any of Firefly/Serenity so can't comment on the particulars.
While visiting Belgium, in the Flemish area, I decided I should learn to say thank you in Flemish. Then I realized...it was like "Dank u"
I decided trying to say this was a bit too much like learning an accent of English. You'd feel foolish trying to say Thank you like a Texan or Brit.
So I just spoke English.
In high school, a friend and I learned Burgess's language or phrases from A Clockwork Orange. We would converse before and after class, and up at the beach, using it. People, especially our female classmates, thought we were making it up. I don't remember any of it now.
I speak my French by holding my nostrils closed.
There is some irony in the fact that this article seems to indicate one medium subject to positive network externalities, i.e., social media sites like TikTok, may be accelerating another medium subject to positive network externalities, i.e., language!
"In high school, a friend and I learned Burgess's language or phrases from A Clockwork Orange. We would converse before and after class, and up at the beach, using it. People, especially our female classmates, thought we were making it up. I don't remember any of it now."
I never tried to converse using Nadsat, (the slang Burgess created for the novel), but I did learn it. It's quite a pleasing "slanguage." Burgess did not provide his own glossary of the Nadsat word meanings, but a glossary was compiled by literary critic Stanley Edgar Hyman for inclusion in most early (and later) editions of the book. Burgess was opposed to the inclusion of such a glossary, but he didn't (or couldn't) prevent it from inclusion.
>>it will be the Scottish Gaelic of my ancestors
Half my ancestors too, though I have no idea of the extent to which they spoke Gaelic. I have some vague notion that they came from Aberdeen. In any case, my Scottish grandparents were in Chicago by the late 19th Century, where my father was born in 1910.
--gpm
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