If you acknowledged that Harvard was, in fact, engaging in behavior that by any reasonable standard would be considered discriminatory and rooted in harmful stereotypes, it was nearly impossible to then turn around and say that the university should have the right to conduct its admissions in whatever manner it pleased....
So is the solution not to acknowledge the discrimination against Asian Americans?
The word “Asian” appears only three times in Justice Jackson’s twenty-nine-page dissent—once as a footnote, once as part of a list of median household incomes compared across racial groups, and then again as part of the following statement: “a higher percentage of the most academically excellent in-state Black candidates . . . were denied admission than similarly qualified White and Asian American applicants.”
The dissent, which details the lengthy history of discrimination against Black people, never mentions the history of racism against Asians in America, whether the lynching of Chinese immigrants in the nineteenth century, the Chinese Exclusion Act, or Japanese internment....
The Sotomayor dissent has more to say about Asian Americans, but it's a complicated move:
[H]er defense of affirmative action goes further in showing how Asians are shortchanged in the undignified competition to join America’s multicultural élite.
“There is no question that the Asian American community continues to struggle against potent and dehumanizing stereotypes in our society,” Sotomayor writes. “It is precisely because racial discrimination persists in our society, however, that the use of race in college admissions to achieve racially diverse classes is critical to improving cross-racial understanding and breaking down racial stereotypes.”
Race must be used against them in order to help them??!
Kang elaborates:
In Sotomayor’s telling, Asian Americans who are concerned about being racially stereotyped should attend “diverse” universities, where they can help dispel people’s misconceptions by simply existing and getting along with their peers.
I guess that means they shouldn't want to be treated equally, because they shouldn't want to be in a place where there are too many of their own kind. That is, don't think about the Asian American applicants who don't get in. Think about those who do get in.
[Sotomayor] goes on to argue that race-conscious admissions allow Asian American applicants “who would be less likely to be admitted without a comprehensive understanding of their background” to “explain the value of their unique background heritage, and perspective” and allow colleges to “consider the vast differences within [that] community.”
It’s hard not to read this as a premise for Asian American teen-agers to essentially dance for acceptance, or to try to distinguish themselves from other Asian Americans by explaining to the good people at the Harvard admissions office why, say, a Vietnamese applicant is more valuable to the Ivy League cultural texture than just another Chinese one....
Interesting example, Vietnamese. WaPo just came out with: "Why are Vietnamese the most Republican-leaning Asian Americans? More Vietnamese Americans favor the GOP compared to other Asian Americans...."
Back to Kang:
After five years of covering this story, I have found very little to admire about how élite colleges played their decadent racial-preference game. While I do believe that most colleges will be able to maintain some kind of racial diversity on their campuses, I have no faith that the processes they use to do so will be any better than the broken system they’re trying to replace. The conversation will not change.
It's interesting to see "decadent racial-preference game" in The New Yorker. Part of the decadence is receiving new Supreme Court decisions and working around them and ignoring them. No one is inspired to change their position.
Oh, no! We've been violating rights and we must stop! — thinks no one.
६४ टिप्पण्या:
It will never make sense until the civil rights law is fixed to prohibit free association only in monopoly markets instead of prohibiting free association in general.
That fixed, Harvard can do whatever it likes and the law doesn't come into it.
State institutions have to be race-blind.
Federal funds ought to be limited to the original purpose, buying some service or other, regardless how the vendor behaves. No piggy-backing public policy into areas public policy is not allowed via fund threats. Those funds come from taxpayers.
Vietnamese are jungle Asians, not fancy Asians, average IQ 90. Midway between blacks and Hispanics.
The case wasn't about Asian Americans, just as Brown v Board of Education wasn't about Blacks and Whites. Both cases were about the authority and power of the state, and state funded institutions, and who gets to have that authority and who gets to use that power.
I concur that state institutions have to be race-blind. Otherwise games get played endlessly.
At some point employers may notice that Ivy League grads aren't all that hot, not worth the price.
If too many Asian students get in, we will see African Americans pushing even harder for legacy preferences, so the children of black alumni will have a better chance of getting into Harvard. That's why the legacy preference won't go away.
Sotomayor writes. “It is precisely because racial discrimination persists in our society, however, that the use of race in college admissions to achieve racially diverse classes is critical to improving cross-racial understanding and breaking down racial stereotypes.”
Right, the old “we have to be racist to stop racism” defense. This is the same justice who, days later, would claim that the court was opening up gays to mass discrimination in public accommodations if Colorado wasn’t allowed to force a webdesigner to celebrate gay marriage.
Against discrimination but for discrimination. That’s cute.
If Affirmative Action was actually interested in repairing historical wrongs perpetuated by our government instead of placating Democrat clients, Asians would be second in line after black Americans. Latinos have very few grievances in actuality. Very interesting that they're automatically included with blacks on the AA gravy train. Shows it's all a sham.
In the post below, Althouse says its hard to believe Joy Reid's contention that Harvard students would act like a black student doesn't belong there (paraphrasing).
But with the reaction to this decision, we see how brilliant Asian people are treated as if they do not have agency, they are simply pawns of white conservatives as they push to do away with a system that disadvantages them. Harvard and the supporters of AA are doing that! What good person of Asian descent would want their child to go to Harvard if it means a black or Hispanic student wouldn't get accepted? It's only white conservatives who are for keeping black and hispanic people down! Be a good Asian!
The SCOTUS decision outlined for Harvard what Harvard has to do to continue their present policies- stop taking government funds at all levels. This should be easy to do given the school's resources. Interesting, isn't it, that they won't do that.
Contrary to the evidence, they just deny Asians are being discriminated against, as in the NPR article Althouse recently posted about.
Excellent semi-fisking. I'd enjoy a full fisking of KBJ. Just sayin'.
The Asian-American thing is a little touchy for progs, as the KBJ evasion (let's just not mention the group that got screwed and is at issue in the case) and the Sotomayor equivocation (they should like being discriminated against for their own good) illustrate. Asian success refutes systemic racism and white supremacy. Anti-Asian discrimination in favor of blacks and Hispanics exposes the inconsistency and corruption in prog advocacy of minorities and "diversity." And a certain amount of prog denial and pressure reminds Asians that they'd better not act out too much--progs dont take kindly to wandering off the assigned reservation.
"If you acknowledged that Harvard was, in fact, engaging in behavior that by any reasonable standard would be considered discriminatory and rooted in harmful stereotypes, it was nearly impossible to then turn around and say that the university should have the right to conduct its admissions in whatever manner it pleased."
Of course, "you" wouldn't acknowledge that, and Harvard didn't, as far as I know. They just thought that, on balance, Asians lacked the right personal qualities, so lower admission rates at any academic decile were perfectly fine.
It was nearly impossible, given the actual text of actual law, but of course progs thought it was perfectly possible, given that actual text of actual law doesn't constrain anything. A few more progs on the court, and presto, any prog thing goes.
But I'm with hardin. The fact that the feds pay for Harvard research or student loans shouldn't allow them to dictate Harvard College policy.
“a higher percentage of the most academically excellent in-state Black candidates . . . were denied admission than similarly qualified White and Asian American applicants.”
Note that Jackson is hiding the ball here - she wants this to be read as black students are less likely to get in than white or Asian students with similar GPA's and SAT scores, but what she is really saying is that black students who do better than most black students are less likely to get in than white students who do better than most white students or Asian students who do better than most Asian students. There is no suggestion that the top of the black heap is actually equivalent to the top of the white or Asian heaps, meaning the top black students may well be less qualified than the top white or Asian students.
You know, kind of like how Jackson being at the top of the black Supreme Court candidate list (well, the top of the leftist black Supreme Court candidate list) didn't make her better or more qualified than those at the top of the white or Asian Supreme Court candidate list (and say, why have we never had an Asian Supreme Court justice?).
Shorter Sotomayor - black students need leg up and safe spaces, Asians need forced integration by being made to go to lesser schools.
"The original concept in pursuit of diversity was vital and righteous. The way it was practiced was hard to defend"
It's hard not to interpret this as, "it was supposed to disadvantage white students, not Asians."
[Sotomayor] goes on to argue that race-conscious admissions allow Asian American applicants “who would be less likely to be admitted without a comprehensive understanding of their background” to “explain the value of their unique background heritage, and perspective” and allow colleges to “consider the vast differences within [that] community.”
So she joins the majority opinion??
What’s interesting to me is the new lawsuit filed targeting legacy and donor-preference admissions, saying it discriminates against students of color. I’m not sure it could have been filed if affirmative action had been affirmed. Feel free to correct my math. But if Harvard (for example) had a target % of admissions based on race and most of the legacy admissions went to white kids, then isn’t the bucket for non-legacy white kids reduced and non-legacy white kids the most harmed? The POC students’ % buckets would be far less impacted. But…now that affirmative action has been disallowed, POC can now claim discrimination. I don’t see how they could in the past from a mathematical perspective. Unless Harvard’s policy was to treat legacy students as a completely separate pool and race-based targets were only set once that pool was removed. The timing of the lawsuit implies it wasn’t the policy.
Everything involved with the New Yorker's point of view reflects elite college attitude. It is slave to Harvard's philosophy of "We are better, pay attention."
I guess the juice isn't worth the squeeze for Asian Americans to Sotomayor and Jackson. Blacks and browns vs Asians and whites.
Racists!
Asians, like Jews, vote for Democrats in spite of Democrats' disdain for them. Biden's "antisemitism czar" just attacked Israel in a speech.
Some random comments in no particular order:
1. Vietnamese are some to hardest working, most self-reliant and genuinely nice people I have ever met. That’s probably why they lean Republican.
2. Outside of law, political science, academia, and maybe medicine, nobody gives a crap whether you went to Harvard. I worked for big corporations that actually made stuff for 35 years and I can remember exactly one executive who went to an Ivy League school. And he got his MBA from Penn after getting his engineering degree from the university of Virginia. This whole Ivy League thing is an invention of upper class white liberals.
3. Justice Brown Jackson is rapidly proving herself to be even dumber that the Wise Latina. And I didn’t even think that was possible.
"Excellent semi-fisking. I'd enjoy a full fisking of KBJ. Just sayin'"
It's hard to process a whole lot of opinions that come out on a couple days, but I would like to get back to the cases and pick out 2 or 3 opinions to write a "fisking" style post about (just in the sense of going through and picking key lines and commenting, not setting out to trash/I'd recognize good and bad and play it straight).
Which opinions would you most like to see? The KBJ AA opinion? I'm probably most interested in getting into the wedding website case. Suggestions?
I take it back. I remember two executives who went to Ivy League schools. The second went to Penn on a basketball scholarship.
Affirmative action can be righteous if it focuses on helping disadvantaged persons (not "groups" per se) acquire true qualifications for the jobs or the schools.
From Kang's article: "Harvard did not have to pursue such a comical vision of social justice. It could have vastly expanded its class sizes, relaxed its admissions standards, and cut off its pipelines from exclusive private schools. It could have opened its doors to hundreds of community-college transfers. If Harvard were truly committed to increasing access to an élite education, it could have invested a fraction of its fifty-three-billion-dollar endowment in free college-preparatory academies across America and guided hundreds of poor Black and Latino students through the university’s gates."
That's always been the tell in the diversity long con.
It not about diversity. Its about shoving the fabricated "systemic" racism, down our throats.
The very definition of identity politics. trans, brown, white hispanic, brown hispanic, female
Everything is a protected class except cis white male. Discriminate all can against straight white males. But the KING of the identity heap is black.
The wedding case comment from At RealClearReligion, Lorie Smith, owner of 303 Creative, is pretty great. I think you should see it .
Which opinions would you most like to see?
The AA thing should have been drowned at birth. The Constitution protects against disparte treatment due to race, creed color, or nation of origin. So singling out Blacks for special treatment has always violated the Constitution. The Supremes dancing around the simple words has always been wrong.
The web site case is more interesting. Compelled speech, freedom of association, freedom of commerce vs identity politics. Three of these four things hold Constitutional direction. One does not. If you cover the web site ruling. compare to the 50's and forcing stores to serve blacks....under what authority.
"a higher percentage of the most academically excellent in-state Black candidates . . . were denied admission than similarly qualified White and Asian American applicants.”
Jackson, in that quote, is just lying her sorry ass off. If you are going to tell a lie, tell a plausible one.
On the question of fisking, yes it would be fun to see a diversity-hire like Jackson get trashed, but historically significant dissents are few and far between. I’d rather you dissect a majority case. Maybe 303 Creative as, superficially at least, it is out of step with other recent gay-rights cases.
Which opinions would you most like to see? The KBJ AA opinion? I'm probably most interested in getting into the wedding website case. Suggestions?
Notorious KBJ has no AA opinion, only a shibboleth.
Althouse said: "Which opinions would you most like to see? The KBJ AA opinion? I'm probably most interested in getting into the wedding website case. Suggestions?"
I'm fascinated by the wedding website case, and similar precedents. So much to consider, evaluate, define. For instance, how do, or should, certain "groups" achieve a protected classification under civil rights laws. Why those groups, and not others? If people who define themselves as "trans" are entitled to extra protection (currently under litigation in Colorado with Masterpiece Cake Shop), why? Have we definitely decided that under the law, trans people are born that way, so it's like race or gayness? Or is it that they have a mental illness and so fall under THAT category of protected persons? What IS trans, anyway--does it count if a man is an autogynaphiliac who dresses as a woman constantly? Does a man in full drag but not "trans" have any special protection against not being denied public accommodations?
I remember when many years ago you first considered the issue of compelled speech and artistic expression as it applies to group civil rights protections in public accommodations. These questions are just fascinating under legal and logical and moral frameworks. Should a baker or a T-shirt designer who is Wiccan be forced to create a product for a Christian customer that states "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live?" Should a wedding photographer be forced to produce beautiful photos and video of a Westboro Baptist ceremony on general principles of vehement disagreement with the entire group's teachings? Would it make a difference if that ceremony was just like any other Christian wedding vs. if the ceremony included signs and rants against gays? The wedding photographer wouldn't be able to claim a religious-based civil right to refuse that job, but the Westboro Baptists WOULD. Yet, would those who want Jack Phillips to bake the Trans Celebration Cake also want to force the Wiccan to bake an anti-Wiccan themed cake, or to force the wedding photographer to create beautiful and affirming art celebrating the Westboro wedding?
The original concept in pursuit of diversity was vital and righteous.
The "pursuit of diversity" was from the beginning racialist, deleterious, and wicked. Its advocates were and remain America's brownshirts, its adherents moral cowards and collaborators.
Both the Federalist---and Powerline blog which qoutes the Federalist at length today--have do ne a pretty good job on Clarence Thomas's "fisking" of Justice KBA's AA dissent. Both are worth reading.
How many Asian SCOTUS justices are there? How many have there ever been?
I am so old that I can remember when "affirmative action" meant making special efforts to go out and find minority candidates who qualified under existing standards, and maybe giving them a little extra help to do so. Proponents insisted it was not about goals, quotas, and timetables. Times change, and (as Obama proved) change need not be for the better.
Sebastian writes, "Excellent semi-fisking. I'd enjoy a full fisking of KBJ."
Then read the full decision. It takes fisking to a new and poetic level, the most vital and vivacious defense of Western Civilization since Burke, perhaps even Demosthenes -- rapier-edged and ankle-deep in rhetorical gore.
We should promote a new eponymous gerund. Fisking is for the squeaking mice among writers. Clarencing is for the Siegfrieds.
Blacks are absolutely the biggest racists in the country with respect to Asians ( and maybe Jewish people). You see it on the streets, in the schools, in social media every single day.
The 3 magic affirmative action hire ladies of the court seem to be the biggest racists of them all.
Asian Americans are part of this conversation because based on merit, grades, and test scores, they were the most severely impacted by affirmative action.
White women benefited more than African-Americans.
At least everyone knows that colleges to not employ the best and the brightest, and they aren't interested in turning young people into the best and the brightest.
They won't change a damn thing as long as Americans and American companies believe in the bullshit prestige these institutions sell.
Asian students are “strangely absent” because they took a short break to cheer and then got back to studying. It isn’t just that they’re smart; their work ethic is scary.
tommyesq said...
7/4/23, 10:06 AM
You caught that, too! Cleverly written to camouflage the lack of direct, apples-to-apples, comparison. I had to read her statement a couple of times to confirm my initial, intuitive, understanding of what she said there.
"The SCOTUS decision outlined for Harvard what Harvard has to do to continue their present policies- stop taking government funds at all levels. This should be easy to do given the school's resources. Interesting, isn't it, that they won't do that."
According to Harvard's website, Harvard's endowment is $50.9 billion. Why can't they make student loans themselves? When the loans are repaid, they can loan the money out all over again. Right?
Well, Clarence Thomas already destroyed KBJ’s AA dissent, so not that one. The wedding website case would be a good one.
But my real interest is trying to figure out Kagan‘s game. She’s too smart to believe the crap that KBJ and the not-so-wise Latina are coming up with; what 5-D chess is Kagan playing?
"Suggestions?"
Totally up to you. We all appreciate any effort you put into any fisking.
But yes, I'd prefer the KBJ AA opinion, partly because I think it makes a rich target, but partly for a strategic reason that may not matter to you--at first glance it looks like a salvo in the culture war more than a regular opinion, likely to be used and embraced by the left and therefore most in need of critical analysis.
Progressive Democrats are above the law and the Constitution. Everybody knows that.
Time spent on the website case would be interesting. I think it's been covered less than the AA case in media.
I’d like to see you so Thomas’ concurrence, especially the line “Race is a social construct”. Also fascinated by the distinction between being an FBA (foundational black American) like Clarence Thomas vs KBJ and Joy Reid who are from black immigrant families with no ties to slavery.
65 to 70% of legacies are White/Hispanic. The rest are Black. So even legacies are racist! Get rid of them.
I recently met a "Progressive" woman whose job is preparing candidates for interviews and helping them with essays for the top-10 MBA programs. Her ideal customer is a black female (a 2-fer) whose ethnicity derives from the Caribbean or Africa (think: Kamala Harris, Meghan Markle or Barry Obama)-- not American slave descendents (like Condi Rice). Their parents are all in the top decile financially, thus they can afford her hefty fee, and these candidates get the maximum preference in Admissions review. She collects a Bonus for every Acceptance Letter. She was cringing at the idea that SCOTUS would block AA programs and when I asked her about Asians, she looked around and quietly said, "...they are so boring and all they do is raise the bar for everyone else in the class." This is the voice of the elite describing their views on diversity -- wealthy & privileged women with extra melanin and total alignment to "Progressive" dogma are the ultimate beneficiaries of the corrupt system. Merit, schmerit!
She is not unique...
Sebastian, to my mind, brings up an interesting question: Can the US government dictate a university's policies by simply purchasing those services from aforesaid university?
Seems like Harvard could do whatever it wants if they simply offer those services on the open market. They'd have to eschew US government grants and direct funding of course, but there are a lot of other governments to fund them as well as large private grants. They'd need to define those services. Publish a price list. They would likely need a marketing and sales organization as well. CONTUS is mute on the subject of from whom the government may/not purchase products and services.
If legacy admissions are abolished, the game of trading future seats for a new stadium or science building will be mostly over. One can see a future where major private universities will fund themselves by tuition fees, patents and licensing agreements, consulting income, etc. They would actually compete against one another for the best new talent capable of attracting big research contracts. Kind of like how professional sports drafts new players.
It would force those universities into the modern business dog-eat-dog world of competition, managed budgets, trimmed staffing, and the continual pressure of having to churn out a product that people actually want to pay for.
That might be nice.
Goetz von Berlichingen
PS - I would be very interested in your 'fisking' of KBJ. Any other subject in addition is frosting to me.
For any who desire a faster "read," Josh Blackman at Volokh has stripped the opinion(s) of most of the referential text while leaving the "meaty" content.
(I thought that Thomas' concurrence was quite magnificent.)
https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Students-for-Fair-Admission.pdf
FISK! FISK! FISK!
By popular demand, no less. I may read it, though to me legal reasoning has always seemed like deep dives in shallow pools.
YMMV.
65 to 70% of legacies are White/Hispanic. The rest are Black. So even legacies are racist!
If the rest really are black, that would be way out of whack with the black population in the US (which as of the last census was 13.6%). Legacies are racist against whites, hispanics and Asians!
Note to fellow commenters: I agree Thomas does a great job on KBJ. To my mind, that makes a possible AA fisking even more interesting. How does it look to someone with at least equal skills of dissection but less personally and ideologcially and jurisprudentially invested?
“Which opinions would you most like to see? The KBJ AA opinion? I'm probably most interested in getting into the wedding website case. Suggestions?”
I think the Gorsuch opinion in the web designer case just shows Sotomayor for what she is: a political hack. It’s a full Fisking.
He made her look stupid, and the opinion she wrote (that EK and KBJ joined) is total drivel. Not at all based in the law.
Love to read what you think about that. Especially Sotomayor’s comments that the decision of the Right Wing majority somehow opens up the world to discrimination against gays. The decision does No such thing. She’s a typical lefty - wants everyone to hold her world view.
Oddly absent? Feels more like intentionally omitted. It's been eye opening to see how many eyes are averted from the needs of Asian Americans.
"If Affirmative Action was actually interested in repairing historical wrongs perpetuated by our government instead of placating Democrat clients, Asians would be second in line after black Americans. Latinos have very few grievances in actuality."
No. Blacks would be second, behind Indigenous Americans.
"The 3 magic affirmative action hire ladies of the court seem to be the biggest racists of them all."
AA is skin deep.
Writes Jay Caspian Kang in "Why the Champions of Affirmative Action Had to Leave Asian Americans Behind/The original concept in pursuit of diversity was vital and righteous. The way it was practiced was hard to defend" (The New Yorker).
No, the original concept was racist trash.
Stop judging people by the color of their skin
I finally ran across this, the expert opinion from SFFA in the Harvard case:
https://studentsfor.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Doc-415-1-Arcidiacono-Expert-Report.pdf
I found this part most interesting. When Bruce Hayden has pointed out that "AA" is about payoffs to "black elites", he clearly knows what he's talking about:
Notably, Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeconomic diversity. Rather, preferences for African Americans and Hispanics are significantly smaller if the applicant is economically disadvantaged. While students flagged by the admissions office as disadvantaged generally receive a modest boost in admissions, this is not true for African Americans (who receive no such boost) and the boost is cut in half for Hispanics.
In other words, Harvard is not employing racial preferences in an effort to benefit disadvantaged minority students. Harvard admits more than twice as many non-disadvantaged African-American applicants than disadvantaged African-American applicants. This would not be the case if Harvard eliminated racial preferences, but provided a uniform preference for socioeconomic status. Under that scenario, disadvantaged African-American admits would outnumber the non-disadvantaged African-American admits
I know a few people who didn’t make enough to send their kids to college and their kids didn’t qualify for scholarships of any type. Yet their children went to college for free.
How is that? They were college employees, not professors, but plant operators or secretaries. A lesser known perk at many private colleges. Don’t know if Harvard and Yale have that.
The students have to meet the absolute minimum requirements for admission. And to continue their education must actually attend classes and achieve passing grades.
I have no idea what the racial breakdown of such students is. Something that would be interesting to know. When I worked at a state university I could attend classes for free offered outside my working hours. But family members couldn’t.
Unfortunately plant operator job openings are few and far between, and while the prison I found a job at had free admission my children never attended…
I did three grad programs (history, library, history) as a state university library staff member. Correction, the first two as a library smurf, the last as a tenure-track professor.
One (rarely two) courses taken at night and/or on weekends, for a lot of years. Slow but steady. Many of my classmates were there on their own dime and for their own reasons, and almost all were grown ups already.
My son got a 50% discount at the state u's he pretended briefly. Once he flunked out, my wife and I used the funds the state helped us put aside for him on ourselves.
Vietnamese are jungle Asians, not fancy Asians, average IQ 90. Midway between blacks and Hispanics.
LOL!.
Google Dr. Nguyễn in California. Pharmacists named Nguyễn pretty popular also.
A dirty little secret is that a large number of blacks at top schools are not descendents of American slaves. Rather they are immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean or their children. American blacks at Cornell actually staged protests about this in 2017. Just now I found estimates that 40% or even more of blacks at top schools are immigrants or their children.
It's even harder to defend discrimination if it's going to benefit immigrants who have no historical claims on our conscience.
The elites don't mind shoving unprepared minorities into prestigious schools and giving the palliative "x"-studies degrees, if any, as it takes potential slots away from people who could give their kids tough competition. Asians, on the other hand, are dangerous competitors for the best placements.
Blogger Narr said...
Correction, the first two as a library smurf,
--
Libraries would be more popular with mascots.
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