Questions over how to interpret such symbols are as divisive as they are persistent, and not just in Ukraine. In the American South, some have insisted that today, the Confederate flag symbolizes pride, not its history of racism and secession. The swastika was an important Hindu symbol before it was co-opted by the Nazis.
In April, Ukraine’s Defense Ministry posted a photograph on its Twitter account of a soldier wearing a patch featuring a skull and crossbones known as the Totenkopf, or Death’s Head. The specific symbol in the picture was made notorious by a Nazi unit that committed war crimes and guarded concentration camps during World War II....
Ihor Kozlovskyi, a Ukrainian historian and religious scholar, said that the symbols had meanings that were unique to Ukraine and should be interpreted by how Ukrainians viewed them, not by how they had been used elsewhere. “The symbol can live in any community or any history independently of how it is used in other parts of Earth,” Mr. Kozlovskyi said....
The Soviet Union signed a nonaggression pact with Germany in 1939, so it was caught by surprise two years later when the Nazis invaded Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union. Ukraine had suffered greatly under a Soviet government that engineered a famine that killed millions. Many Ukrainians initially viewed the Nazis as liberators. Factions from the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its insurgent army fought alongside the Nazis in what they viewed as a struggle for Ukrainian sovereignty. Members of those groups also took part in atrocities against Jewish and Polish civilians...
The top-rated comment at the NYT comes from j Szymborska in Wroclaw, Poland:
I don't believe that Ukraine as a whole is infected by Nazism. That being said, here in Poland we see many young men in their teens who espouse very hateful attitudes to anything related to the other. This of course is a product of growing up in a very homogenous culture. We have hosted refugees and the degree to which they have, at the least disrespect, and the most hate, for members of the LGBTQ community and members of nonwhite/European ethnic groups is troubling, to say the least. I often wonder how true it is when I hear members of the EU say things like, "Ukrainians are fighting for European values." I would love to see a journalist give any of the fighters on the front lines a checklist of "European values" and ask them which of them they are fighting for.
This does not excuse, justify or otherwise trivialize the war, but we should be honest because if we are not the post-war world will be a rude awakening for the EU and the west.
४८ टिप्पण्या:
They're Navajo symbols meaning good luck.
There's a Holocaust industry in the West that exists to take offense, which here meets Ukranians.
I see the Left moving Ukraine up the victim ladder. Antifa's about to lose their rung.
People criticize the USA for its racist history, but the USA was populated by European immigrants who brought racism with them. Racism is closely related to tribalism and a simple self-defense method: Those who you physically resemble are perceived to be more likely to be part of your family/in-group and less likely to kill or exploit you. It can be true or it can be false, but it is indeed a common primal survival strategy.
In the post WWII era, the pacifists and globalists suppressed all forms of nationalism for fear of the return of militarism and Nazis and Fascists. However, in doing so they suppressed often benign traditions and drove nationalism underground. So, it now pops up in all sorts of naïve and extreme forms (e.g., the USA's Hispanic Nazi symbolism).
Ukraine is located in a historically competitive, conflict-prone area of the world. When forced to kill or be killed they must choose sides, and in turn deflate globalist ideals. Israel and the rest of the middle-east are at odds. The globalists turn a blind eye. Ukraine hosts Nazi sympathizers. The globalists turn a blind eye. China kills it Uyghurs. Globalists turn a blind eye. US cities are burning, empty, and failing. Globalists turn a blind eye.
At some point a broken ideology must crack and implode. It's not working. The world will not hold hands and sing kumbaya.
As we fought to free France, the French put their jews in railcars to the concentration camps.
But hey, someone's wearing a designated-inappropriate symbol!
It’s funny how the West is always trying to defend itself from Western values.
"the imagery symbolizes Ukrainian sovereignty and pride"
Plus our own progs like the implied antisemitism, so no prob.
LOL nazis fighting commies again and the idiots want me to pick a side? Fuck ‘em. I want both to lose. Washington’s warning about foreign entanglements looks wiser all the time.
What is that button on your body armor?
Funny how no "nuance" is required in interpreting of the meaning of a MAGA hat.
rhhardin said, "There's a Holocaust industry in the West that exists to take offense, which here meets Ukranians."
There's no business like shoah business.
The Ukraine conflict is so strange to me. When I read about it at home and I play armchair general it doesn’t feel fully modern. It's almost like WWI and Gulf War I had a child with developmental disabilities. It’s such a static, brutal slugfest because Russia is so bad at what it wants to do and Ukraine started the war off with so many disadvantages.
I've concluded that:
- Ukraine will not accomplish their strategic objectives for this conflict (aka Ukraine will lose)
- Russia's achievement of its strategic objectives will end up being pyrrhic, even though they will keep Crimea, which is one of the things this was ultimately all about
- China, Iran and India will be the geopolitical winners of this conflict
- NATO and the USA will be a geopolitical and reputational loser
- Russia will pivot back to USSR style militarism socially and economically when this is over. In light of what they saw from NATO, how could Putin not.
Cold war is back on the menu boys...
well its even more complicated, we employed banderas forces in the caucasus, where they held off Soviet and polish forces, a young sloane coffin was their contact person, after a strategic retreat, he was ensconced in munich where the Soviets smershed him, his subordinate lebed, was exfiltrated to ny after that,
Welp...
The NYT's reps need to go around to US bases and check out the tats on our troops. Oh the vapors.
People are killed by the thousands in Ukraine. We just had a massive Dam on the Dnieper River destroyed and thousands have left their homes. Lots of farm land will be unsuable. This war is a humanitarian disaster and should be put to a close. I just read that Ukraine has 50 percent of the people it had in 2020.
Yet, the MSM is fascinated by some silly Ukrainian/Russian "Nazis". Hitler died 78 years ago. Yet people are talking more about "Nazis" then they were in 1980. Incredible! If I could bottle the stupidity and sell it, I'd be richer than Elon Musk.
Yes, Kevin. But in this case there are no Gestapo agents behind the gendarme making certain they do their duty.
Why are we involved in this, at all?
Commenters here typically would not be inclined to say, "if the New York Times calls someone a Nazi, it must be true." It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but the Ukranians are known for their brutality and appetite for street justice when it comes to acting on accusations of sympathizing with Russians, so I have to wonder if a little bit of this is just tactical trolling of Russians. The Soviets lost well over 20 million of their citizens to Nazis in WWII, with more civilian deaths than battlefield ones. Over 13% of their population ! There's no mistaking that the use of Nazi imagery would have a powerful, demoralizing effect. Are the Ukrainians really Nazis, though, or just garden-varity thugs? How? (serious question). Are they idolizing Adolph and petitioning for death camps for Jews. Isn't whats-his-name a Jew, though?
Ha ha! The New Yok Times! Ha ha!
"That being said, here in Poland we see many young men in their teens who espouse very hateful attitudes to anything related to the other. This of course is a product of growing up in a very homogenous culture."
My guess is that it's the product of the teens being told that they're personally culpable for every evil, real or imagined, that's ever been identified in any corner of the globe.
It's interesting that the NYT would tentatively admit that the Ukraine does have a Nazi problem at this juncture. There's also been news reports acknowledging that Ukrainian groups were probably behind the Nordstream bombing (despite earlier media and government claims that Russia bombed their own pipelines for some incomprehensible purpose). I think the groundwork is being laid for the US and other Western governments to pull back on further support for the Ukraine while saving face despite all our earlier chest thumping. Not all the way to zero, just not as extravagant as our support has been to date.
American Money is Killing Russians
American Arms are Killing Russians
American Intelligence data are Killing Russians
American "Advisers" are Killing Russians
American "Trainers" are Killing Russians
American service personal are Killing Russians
American ICBMS are Killing Russians
Where will it end? When will it end? WILL it end?
Can't We ALL Agree? That, it's GOOD that we're helping the Nazis kill the Russians?
Until the nuclear war starts, manmade CO2 levels will continue to increase; as will population.
As the Saying goes.. You can't break eggs, unless you Say you're making an omelet
My oh-so-woke neighbor just made some vile comments on Facebook about Christians as an addendum to her fawning praise of a local gay pride event. My wife asked me what I thought about that. My answer was “so what”.
My answer here is the same.
The Soviet casualty figures from WWII include--this will surprise tim I'm sure--many Ukrainians who fought willingly or otherwise in the Red Army. (Not to mention the many Soviet-caused deaths that got conveniently rolled into the numbers.)
The worst parts of the Nazi-Soviet conflict took place in the lands West of Russia proper, which was barely penetrated by Axis forces. The Balts, the Belorussians, the Ukrianians and the Crimeans bore the brunt of the deaths, damage, and destruction--but the narrative has always focused on Russia. (There's more than one way to RUSSIARUSSIARUSSIA! and the Dems are masters of all of them.)
As for Totenkopf symbology, that far predates Nazis (kind of like radio). The British 16th (or was it the 17th?) Light Dragoons sported them in the American Revolution, and nobody bats an eye.
Jersey Fled: "My oh-so-woke neighbor just made some vile comments on Facebook about Christians as an addendum to her fawning praise of a local gay pride event. My wife asked me what I thought about that. My answer was “so what”."
Is your woke neighbor named "Inga"?
If we had a president we likely could have headed off this war. Now we are swept up in a huge mess and a couple of guys with dicey arm patches thousands of miles way are a minor issue.
" annexed"
Re: Tom T:
Commenters here typically would not be inclined to say, "if the New York Times calls someone a Nazi, it must be true." It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
Yes, but pre-2022 it was pretty common knowledge that Nazi groups had played a key role in the Maidan, that the non-Nazi elements of the government lacked either the power or the willingness to exclude them from official roles, and that a lot of Ukrainians who didn't cover themselves in SS tattoos also had an unpleasant fondness for Nazi collaborators, something that occasionally caused diplomatic tension with neighbours like Poland. In fairness to the average Ukrainian, they had like one real national uprising against Soviet/foreign control, and as a matter of historical happenstance the leaders of that uprising mostly collaborated with the Nazis, so they're kind of stuck with people like Bandera as their national heros. He and his movement had their own flaws, but a bit of anti-Semitism and ethnic cleansing wouldn't stand out as much if it didn't have "Nazi" stamped on top.
And none of this was hidden or new -- Ukrainian armed forces were going around with the Wolfsangel on their patches, and Maidan protesters sported the SS Black Sun emblem. The photos were right there (possibly because journalists initially didn't realise they were broadcasting a bunch of Nazi symbols -- it wasn't swastikas but more esoteric SS runes and emblems after all). Members of Congress were also aware of the Nazi problem when providing aid to the Ukraine and tried (pre-2022) to structure aid so that equipment and money wouldn't go to Nazi groups.
None of this means we shouldn't support the Ukraine vs Russia. Ukrainian Nazis aren't going around making trouble for American operations around the world. Russia is. So cooperation with the Nazis -- or rather, with a government that isn't controlled by Nazis but relies in part on Nazi support, so not really overt cooperation with Nazis at all -- makes perfect sense.
Ha-ha! The New York Times! Ha-ha!
Slavery, Authority, Abortion, Diversity (SAAD). The Nazis were a far-left movement.
Aggie,
The Soviets killed a hell of alot more of their own people than the Nazis.
The death's head symbol goes back to Frederick the Great's time. As with alot of Nazi symbolism, it was borrowed. And it will all be forever linked to the Nazi ideology.
"thorny". So cute. Domestically, NYT just says "hate".
Put all the worst people in the world, doing all the worst things, like rapists, pedophiles, thieves, murderers, terrorists, child abusers, vulture capitalists, pornographers, short-selling investors, bankers, warmongers, DC bureaucrats,etc. in a room...
You go and ask them what do they fear most? You ask them who do you hate the most? And when every one of them says "nazis”, maybe it's time to re-examine what "good guy" and "bad guy" mean and who the good guys and bad guys are.
Antifa, literal terrorists who commit arson, theft, murder, and most of whom are convicted felons, say they hate nazis. Some old guard antifa are convicted terrorists, such as that one woman who was jailed for bombing a government building in the 60s on behalf of the USSR, and is now a leader in antifa as well as in a government position. The 3 people Kyle Rittenhouse shot? All felons. A thief, a wife beater, and a multi-conviction pedophile. Guess what, they all hate Nazis.
All the bankers, the federal reserve asshats devaluing your currency, the investors buying all the houses to price people out of the market, the people who shorted the stocks of Gamestop and Bed Bath & Beyond. They all hate nazis.
The politicians - Democrat and Republican - who have lied for a cassus belli regarding Ukraine and other countries (George Bush, Obama, John Bolton, Biden just to name a few), sending American blood and treasure so they and their friends can profit. The entire US military industrial complex. They hate nazis.
When everyone turning the world into a worse place for normal people hates evil scary "nazis", maybe it's time to really reexamine what that word actually means considering all these reprobates hate them, in lock-step, every time they open their mouths.
@Narr, @Goju, so not really 'Nazis', then, just conveniently being called out as Nazis. That's kind of what I thought. If they really want to be effective at calling them Nazis, they're going to have to start handing out red hats.
"Strugled to contain..." LO Fucking L.
These Nazis have been nurtured and grown by the CIA since the Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, as a way to undermine it, and these Nazis have been used since the end of the Cold War, were used to overthrow the democratically elected govt in 2014, and are being used now as a way to undermine the Russian Federation, which sits on $72 trillion in natural resources that Biden's cronies have been licking their chops over forever. They want to turn Russia into a second version of Africa, and bust it up into pliable, corruptible, manageable little countries that we can go in and fleece.
That's what we want, what the neonazis want is to turn those areas that have been Russians for a couple of centuries, but which fell into their lap in the collapse of the USSR, turn every square meter into an ethnically pure Ukrainian state, which, of course means "de-Russification," hopefully they won't set up death camps, maybe they will simply undertake pogroms to expel all of the Russians from their homes. This is what the leader of their secret police, Budanov said, he said that millions of Russians are so hopelessly indoctrinated that they would have to be "removed physically." The next day there was a bunker buster attack on his headquarters, and he has not been seen since, that I know of, and people are getting curious. I am guessing that he is in Hell with his buddy and hero, mass murderer Stephan Bandera.
Anyway, these are the people we are giving weapons to, and turning a blind eye to what they are doing with them, because, as Lindsay Graham says, "killing Russians" is the "best money we ever spent." He never said "Russian soldiers," BTW.
Note: I know that people claim that that quote has been manipulated, but the original quote boils down to exactly the same meaning, and the quote that Graham said manipulated his word and was done by the Russians, actually came from the Ukrainians.
On Rumble, there is a free copy of Ukraine On Fire, which was made well before this war, which documents how the Ukrainians teach their children to hate Russians. So this fetish for Hitler goes way deeper than symbolism. And if course we gave beeb braubwashed by our MSM to hate Russians too, especially Putin, who, and this is unforgivable, put a stop to the rape of Russian resources by cronies of the Clintons, who took advantage of the drunkard Yeltsin, that our CIA put in charge after the collapse.
"with a government that isn't controlled by Nazis but relies in part on Nazi support,"
LOL, a few weeks into the war, serous peace negotiations were taking place, before Boris Johnson flew into Kiev and told Zelensky that the West would not support any deal he makes with Russia. A couple months later, one of the negotiators for Ukraine was assassinated as a traitor by the nazis, no trial, not nothing, just called a traitor and killed. So you can say that the government is not run by nazis, but I seriously doubt that Zelensky feels like he has a free hand to run the country as he wants to.
We could get along with both Russia and China, but since that would require us to compromise the lust for power and wealth of the people who run America, that is unacceptable.
Do you know which Nazi sympathizers get a free pass: The Palestinians. Palestinians are allowed to side with Hitler in their quest for liberation. If Ukrainians or Finns did it, it's proof they're despicable and unworthy of our support.....There are a lot of crazy people in the world and many of them are in Eastern Europe. On a per capita basis though, I'd give the nod to the Near East.
Meanwhile the United States is torturing Political Prisoners. And NOBODY seems to care.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/06/exclusive-oath-keepers-leader-stewart-rhodes-is-being/
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/06/cushmir-mcbride-fed-j6-prisoner-ryan-samsel-when/
"Ukraine has worked for years.... to contain a fringe far-right movement whose members proudly wear symbols steeped in Nazi history...and espouse views hostile to leftists, L.G.B.T.Q. movements and ethnic minorities."
Much like today's Republican Party in the United States of America.
Love the Community Notes on the NYT tweet
https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1665760923150057486?cxt=HHwWnICwkf2u_J0uAAAA
Ukraine's neo-Nazi and ultra-nationalist regiment has been well documented and acknowledged even prior to the Russian invasion, and discarding it as "Russian propaganda" is disingenuous. Ukraine has a history of neo-Nazi involvement which is well established.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-Na…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-Na…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_o…
reuters.com/article/us-coh…
aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/…
theguardian.com/world/2014/sep…
readthemaple.com/media-once-cal…
Nazis, "Nazis," and Nazi/"Nazi" symbols are now part and parcel of all political discussions, which means their value as proofs of intent is about nil. (You think those Russian convicts they deployed weren't covered with Nazi and racist tats? Seriously?)
Thugs and assholes all over the world will sport signs to appall the normies--it's the lazy, silent equivalent of giving a finger, which takes sustained effort. Don a Nazi symbol and suddenly people think you're important and influential--and often enough it works.
As for mass murder, all wars feature it. We allied with one mass-murderer against another in WWII, won, and got on with life. The only real question is which mass-murderer is the bigger immediate threat.
Real Nazis considered Ukrainians and all other Slavs to be 'untermenchen', subhuman. These guys may like the symbols but I doubt they buy into that idea. Nazi symbology is popular in other non-western places like South Korea. I remember a Nazi themed cafe in Seoul.
The real question is, what does it take for some Ideology to take control of Society?
Registered NSDAP members in Nazi Germany were only a few millions, registered KPSS members in USSR were about 10 millions, and most of those people joined the Party simply for career advancement. There may have been only 1 or 2 millions of dedicated radical Nazi or Communist activists and yet they were able to exert seemingly absolute control over Germany and/or Soviet Union.
These days, US is going through seemingly incomprehensible stage where a group of radical activists, which nobody can even identify with any certainty, controls almost all political, cultural and large business institutions. Their ideology is presently called "woke", they are absolutely insignificant in numbers, they don't seem to have any structure or organization but their dictats are felt everywhere and most regular people dare not to oppose them.
The presence of radical Nationalist groups in Ukraine is well documented and indisputable. The only question is their degree of influence on the whole country. I don't think it is anywhere as strong as Nazis had in Germany or Communists had in USSR. But I think it may be as influential and powerful as "woke" movement in US right now.
I have a Ukrainian former employee and friend who shocked me once by demonstrating a Nazi salute and singing several Nazi songs.
He told me he was taught these by the occupying Russians who forced him and fellow Ukrainian children to join the Red Army Brigade, a Communist version of the Boy Scouts, where they were also instructed to spy on their parents and neighbors and report them to the FSB.
The more you know, the more you realize you don't know about this region.
Yes, that was an astonishing piece of propaganda, even by Times standards, but I'm more worried about actual Maoists like Anita Dunn "advising" both Obama in Chicago and now Biden in the Oval Office; China asset and Weatherman Mike Klonsky's long entanglement in Obama's inner circle, and the fact that t-shirts, purses, and other images of the morphed faces of Obama and Mao with the slogan "ObamaMao" were wildly popular throughout China after the 2008 election, which kicked off a rapid and unnoticed mass movement of Chinese nationals and Chinese money into our universities and STEM graduate schools, where they now comprise the largest percentage of foreign students, 10% in many of our top universities and graduate schools.
Welp...
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